Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

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Kashi
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Kashi » 11 Aug 2018 11:05

Karan sir, to me it appears to be wishful thinking to explain away our pedestrian performances. I cannot claim to understand the thinking of our DGMF and infantry command in this, but taking into consideration all the recent and not-so-recent events- persisting with Rossie tincans, step motherly treatment to Arjun etc.

Ironically, it is Arjun that has been de-thumbed in a parallel eerily reminiscent of Eklavya.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby ArjunPandit » 11 Aug 2018 11:46

In absence of further information both Kash and Karan's statements are speculation. The fact still remains that our performance is sub par and results demonstrate that we don't seem to learning from it. Now with all things tested, Arjun is the only thing that hasn't been tested. It must be tested along with t series. The worst thing is it is not being talked in media at all.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Kashi » 11 Aug 2018 12:07

Given that Arjun's engine was indeed sabotaged, I don't think we can call it speculation anymore.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby chola » 11 Aug 2018 12:26

The Russians use the T-72B3M with 1130hp engine while India and the rest without their own tanks got the T-72B3 with 840hp. Not very sporting.
https://mobile.twitter.com/pragmatistic/status/1027572505761009664

Also the T-72B3’s gun is not stabilized like the T-90 so our crews would not have been used to it.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby nam » 11 Aug 2018 13:35

It is staged "competition". So if DGMF wants to compete, they better take a T90, ask DRDO to come up with a much powerful T90 engine. We now produce the engine locally, no reason why it cannot be uprated. It they don't have time, then create a reduced weight T90/T72.

Put aluminium wheels, reduce the armour and pratice the crew with the new version. Send this one across for the next competition.

We took our T90 last time for the reason that Russians were providing under powered tanks to competitors.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Philip » 11 Aug 2018 14:02

Demand a lottery for each team for the tank they will use!
That way there will be a level playing field for all.The teams must also have sufficient practice time as somd contestants may not operate similar eqpt. or variants they operate may differ.

T-14s aren't the top Ru mil. priority right now.It is the RuN and rhe strategic arsenal, SSBNs, new ICBMs, nuclear UW torpedoes, etc.The new weapons Putin unveiled this year clearly shows that strategic weaponry comes first, tactical weaponry second.

Even western nations are facing major problems inducting new conventional weaponry due to insufficient budgets and technological challenges.The USN is to acquire more late- model SHs instead of JSFs due to the prolonged gestation and delayed induction of that bird.

The RuAF equipped with SU-27/30s and 35s is not worried about NATO , etc. as these birds are superior to the Eurocanards and other frontline aircraft barring the F-22 only used by the US.Post 2020 will see a steady introduction of the SU-57.With its galaxy and proliferation of superb SAM systems like the S series, etc., Ru air defence is quite sound.Syria showed what the Russians could achieve using mostly legacy Sov. eqpt. which the US anx its allies couldn't do with all their sophisticated and supposedly superior weaponry! The Indian armed forces should study the Syrian conflict v.carefully and examind how the Russians, Syrians and Iranian- backed militia sent ISIS and US/ Arab backed rebel forces packing.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Karan M » 11 Aug 2018 15:18

Kashi wrote:Karan sir, to me it appears to be wishful thinking to explain away our pedestrian performances. I cannot claim to understand the thinking of our DGMF and infantry command in this, but taking into consideration all the recent and not-so-recent events- persisting with Rossie tincans, step motherly treatment to Arjun etc.

Ironically, it is Arjun that has been de-thumbed in a parallel eerily reminiscent of Eklavya.


Kashi, no sir please.

IA training is second to none and our IA guys sweat far more in peace than many of these showboat armies.

Please consider that first.

Then see all the myriad things that go into a tank FCS and how easy it is to frustrate an otherwise good crew by giving them a tank which is not A+ like the other competitors but has tiny niggles.

Its gun control system has a wee bit of extra error.

Its FCS calculates a wee bit slower.

And there you go.

Keep a spare tank as bad or even worse than the original and there you go. The IA crew has to grin and bear it.

Point is - we shouldn't blame our own people without having all the details, especially knowing the kind of political crap that often goes on in these "exercises" and the accounts that emerge thereafter.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Karan M » 11 Aug 2018 15:22

ArjunPandit wrote:In absence of further information both Kash and Karan's statements are speculation.


True. But anyone who has interacted with or has knowledge of IA training standards would contest any claim that IA performance would degrade by any significant amount when all things were kept even.

The fact still remains that our performance is sub par and results demonstrate that we don't seem to learning from it. Now with all things tested, Arjun is the only thing that hasn't been tested. It must be tested along with t series. The worst thing is it is not being talked in media at all.


Taking an Arjun to the expo etc would be good news for jingos, but considering the vast majority of our tank fleet is T-series, what the IA is doing is practical. They are checking their crew standards for the baseline majority.

Now, whether the crew was given a fair chance is the point.

Please also be aware that IA/IAF/IN guys have often faced really tough/unfair climes before as well, and not all of it makes it to the media.

Kindly recall how some Indian officers were treated during Hawk training in the UK. All sorts of tricks to downplay/patronize their capability using frivolous statements. The post Red Flag comments by Fornof et al.

So its not just the Russians.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Karan M » 11 Aug 2018 15:30

This is not to say all exercises are by nature rigged etc. They aren't and experiences vary from place to place and national politics/interests play a huge role.

When IAF went to Red Flag, French Rafales did their best not to show off their capabilities in front of the multinational etc crowd and in front of the heavily instrumented US range. They wanted to preserve their interests.

When IAF went to France, gloves were off. They wanted to showcase the Rafale to prove a point to the IAF it was the right choice for their MMRCA. Of course, the press went to town claiming French superiority etc, but French trade mags were more nuanced about the pros and cons of each type.

Point I am making is these exercises are very useful and we do learn from them, but there is a lot of information between the lines which rarely makes it outside the real world circles.

For instance, in one exercise, IA sent its standard crew albeit with some extra time off to prep for the event so they would be reasonably prepared. Our good neighbours who sent their crew had them spend literally every moment of their time for a year around prepping the event.

The IA crew came 2nd or 3rd. The rival team came first in a couple of events. Now ask yourself, which crew was more representative of real world conditions?

So context and nuance matter, and so don't automatically start worrying about IA crews because one or two crews in some event didn't do well.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Karan M » 11 Aug 2018 15:34

Philip wrote:Demand a lottery for each team for the tank they will use!


Good point.

The RuAF equipped with SU-27/30s and 35s is not worried about NATO , etc. as these birds are superior to the Eurocanards and other frontline aircraft barring the F-22 only used by the US.


Not accurate at all. The handful of Su-35s, Su-30s in Russian service are few as versus the larger number of platforms such as Rafales, EFs etc fielded by the west which are equivalent and even superior (depending on the mission). Its a different matter that the Su-35s are backed up by many more systems (e.g. the SAMs as you mentioned) and then of course, there is the nuke angle.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby mody » 11 Aug 2018 15:49

Why aren't we using the same engines for T-72 and T-90 tanks or more correctly, why aren't we upgrading the T-72 tanks with the T-90 engine? We have been making both in India. Upto now, the engines were made with some parts imported from Russia and now we are making everything in house.
It would definitely make sense to upgrade the T-72 engine from the old 760 HP engine to 1,000 HP engine.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Karan M » 11 Aug 2018 17:05

That is indeed the plan

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Kashi » 11 Aug 2018 18:35

Karan M, I am not questioning the training standards nor the capabilities. Of course, I am aware that operational performances are what count.

I am more anguished over step motherly treatment being meted out to Arjun by the IA hierarchy.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby nam » 11 Aug 2018 20:07

mody wrote:Why aren't we using the same engines for T-72 and T-90 tanks or more correctly, why aren't we upgrading the T-72 tanks with the T-90 engine? We have been making both in India. Upto now, the engines were made with some parts imported from Russia and now we are making everything in house.
It would definitely make sense to upgrade the T-72 engine from the old 760 HP engine to 1,000 HP engine.


It is been done. Not just the engine, there is ERA MK2 and I also read we are replacing armor with Kanchan. So our T72s will be with composite armor, not the Soviet monkey models. Ofcourse it is will interesting to see how DRDO puts in composite on the shape of T72 turret.

They are also getting aluminum wheels, which has increased their top speed.

I hope we sort out the sabots, should be pretty good overall.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby nam » 11 Aug 2018 20:10

Kashi wrote:Karan M, I am not questioning the training standards nor the capabilities. Of course, I am aware that operational performances are what count.

I am more anguished over step motherly treatment being meted out to Arjun by the IA hierarchy.


There might be a conscious decision by IA not to reveal Arjun's capability. It may make our hearts happy, however the current Arjun is the only version deployed and is not old enough. We are not selling it to anyone either.

Even the Chinese are not sending in their newest tank.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Karan M » 12 Aug 2018 00:16

Kashi wrote:Karan M, I am not questioning the training standards nor the capabilities. Of course, I am aware that operational performances are what count.

I am more anguished over step motherly treatment being meted out to Arjun by the IA hierarchy.


I agree with and understand your angst. Taking Arjuns to the event would be a PR advantage for sure, and also indicate IA's support for the product and show it has finally come of age. IA imho just decided to use it as an opportunity to check their training standards.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Karan M » 12 Aug 2018 00:17

nam wrote:
mody wrote:Why aren't we using the same engines for T-72 and T-90 tanks or more correctly, why aren't we upgrading the T-72 tanks with the T-90 engine? We have been making both in India. Upto now, the engines were made with some parts imported from Russia and now we are making everything in house.
It would definitely make sense to upgrade the T-72 engine from the old 760 HP engine to 1,000 HP engine.


It is been done. Not just the engine, there is ERA MK2 and I also read we are replacing armor with Kanchan. So our T72s will be with composite armor, not the Soviet monkey models. Ofcourse it is will interesting to see how DRDO puts in composite on the shape of T72 turret.

They are also getting aluminum wheels, which has increased their top speed.

I hope we sort out the sabots, should be pretty good overall.


The engine upgrade is under planning. It has not been implemented yet, to my knowledge. Prototypes may have it.

The ERA Mk2 has been cleared by IA for induction, but again, it will take time before mass deployment.

Kanchan, per my understanding, was added to the glacis. A much simpler and straightforward task than reshaping the turret or adding more weight to the turret (which would mess with the turret movement and all sorts of weapon related challenges).

The actual upgrades that have been done:

ERA Mk1
TISAS and TIFCS (latter being a full FCS) to around 1000 T-72s. The latter to around 700 tanks if memory serves.
New radios. Tadiran & BEL made Combat Net Radios (the former is more or less the T-XX standard but the BEL CNR cleared trials later).
New DRDO Fire detection & suppression system
Indigenized radiation detection systems
Indian + Russian FSAPDS ammo
New TI Commanders sights from DRDO
New PNVG drivers sights from DRDO

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby ramana » 12 Aug 2018 01:34

chola wrote:The Russians use the T-72B3M with 1130hp engine while India and the rest without their own tanks got the T-72B3 with 840hp. Not very sporting.
https://mobile.twitter.com/pragmatistic/status/1027572505761009664

Also the T-72B3’s gun is not stabilized like the T-90 so our crews would not have been used to it.


There were three crews. The first crew scored 3/3. Other two crews scored 0/3 both times.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby chola » 12 Aug 2018 02:08

^^^ Did they use the same tank or different ones? I think it is the same tank because we lost two T-90s last year and was out of the competition. One would be the backup.

Important because if it is the same tank for all three crews then there is an obvious skill level difference. If different tanks then bad equipment (deliberate or not) could still be a factor.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby chola » 12 Aug 2018 02:17

The Tank Biathlon ended with Russia 1st and Cheen 2nd. Basically the same old story every year.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Nrisingh06/status/1028324209024540672

I might be an optimist but I imagine the day India inject herself into their scripted endings with the FRCV.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 12 Aug 2018 07:54

If the small CIS country is better off than you then you have serious problem with your training , considering you like they have operated the T series for decades and they all operate the same T version in the competition. we did not even enter top 4 , Kazakhstan and Belarus make it there.

xxxxxxxxxxxand no competitor claimed there were unfairly treated in the compettion it is much better for DGMF to relook into training tactics of the tank crew and then prepare to do better next time that is how they will get better
--------------------------
Mod note from Karan- Austin, keep a check on your language. Calling other member's views as Paki, is a sure shot way to get a warning. Don't repeat it please.
Last edited by Austin on 12 Aug 2018 07:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 12 Aug 2018 07:58

Full Video of Tank Baithlon Finals


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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 12 Aug 2018 08:03

An Egyptian team hit the "helicopter" target with a missile during the Clear Sky contest for the air defense units on Tuesday at the #InternationalArmyGames2018 in Korla, Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region

https://mobile.twitter.com/globaltimesn ... 9581467648

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 12 Aug 2018 08:23

China won against Belarus with a very small time margin , 2 mins plus difference

The chief of the General Staff and the commander-in-chief of the Ground Forces, Colonel-General Oleg Salyukov also awarded diplomas and medals to the team of China, which took the second place, and the Belarusians who rose to the third step of the pedestal.

At the end of the awarding ceremony, the anthem of the Russian Federation was performed. The team of Russian tankmen passed the track in 1 hour 29 minutes 55 seconds, and the Chinese team in 1 hour 43 minutes 42 seconds. Third at the finish came the national team of Belarus with the result at 1 hour 45 minutes 19 seconds.



Подробнее на ТАСС:
http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5449330

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby chola » 12 Aug 2018 08:26

Austin wrote:If the small CIS country is better off than you then you have serious problem with your training , considering you like they have operated the T series for decades and they all operate the same T version in the competition. we did not even enter top 4 , Kazakhstan and Belarus make it there.

xxxxxxxxx and no competitor claimed there were unfairly treated in the compettion it is much better for DGMF to relook into training tactics of the tank crew and then prepare to do better next time that is how they will get better


Austin ji, as I posted above, the Russians used a far more powerful T-72 variant so not really fair IMHO — but no one ever complained because they are the hosts and competitors have the option of bringing their own tanks which the chinis always do and which we did last year.

That said, I agreed with you on your main point. Belarus and Kazakhstan use the same tanks in the competition and in their armies that we use so we should do better. But, it not intended as an excuse, the T-90 we have comes with a stabilized gun. The T-73B3 does not. It is like asking someone who uses a modern assault rifle to compete with a flintlock against people who are used to using flintlocks. But it is still our fault for not bringing our own tanks.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby sum » 12 Aug 2018 08:33

Austin wrote:If the small CIS country is better off than you then you have serious problem with your training , considering you like they have operated the T series for decades and they all operate the same T version in the competition. we did not even enter top 4 , Kazakhstan and Belarus make it there.

xxxxxxxxxxxx and no competitor claimed there were unfairly treated in the compettion it is much better for DGMF to relook into training tactics of the tank crew and then prepare to do better next time that is how they will get better

Agree 400%

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby chola » 12 Aug 2018 08:34

Austin wrote:An Egyptian team hit the "helicopter" target with a missile during the Clear Sky contest for the air defense units on Tuesday at the #InternationalArmyGames2018 in Korla, Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region

https://mobile.twitter.com/globaltimesn ... 9581467648


Nice footage, Austin ji. I really liked that you can see the full trajectory of the missile to target. That mijjile actually went low after launch and then struck the target from underneath.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 12 Aug 2018 16:41

Although Tank Baithlon takes more of media eyeball there was more than half a dozen different competition as par of Army Games 2018 in which 33 countries participated. Not sure if INdia has participated in other events as well.

http://armygames2018.mil.ru/armygames2018_en

The teams from 33 countries will take part in the games: Azerbaijan, Angola, Algeria, Armenia, Bangladesh, Belarus, Venezuela, Vietnam, Greece , Egypt, Zimbabwe, Israel , Iran , India, Kazakhstan, Kuwait, China, Kirghizia, Laos, Myanmar, Morocco , Mongolia, Nicaragua, Pakistan , Russia, Serbia, Syria, Sudan, Tajikistan, Uganda, Uzbekistan, Philippines , South Africa .


Results of all disciplines http://armygames2018.mil.ru/results_en

Cant read crylic but hopefully they will update the website in english too in few days.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby nam » 12 Aug 2018 17:09

https://mobile.twitter.com/sayareakd/status/1027822301969088512

Since we had 2 pages of dhoti shivering, I decided to have a re-look at the ranking from the first round. We were 6 overall with 3/9 tank rounds with 2 mnts penalty. Iranians with 6/9 hits are languishing in the last.

The first four went through based purely on time taken. So even if we had 6/9 hits with the same time taken to complete the relay, we would still be on position 6.

So fundamentally, if the tank is fast enough, you get in to the final. Even if there are penalty times for missing out target, having a really fast tank like the Russians certainly helps.

We wasted 2 pages discussing our shooting skills.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby chola » 12 Aug 2018 17:23

Austin wrote:Although Tank Baithlon takes more of media eyeball there was more than half a dozen different competition as par of Army Games 2018 in which 33 countries participated. Not sure if INdia has participated in other events as well.

http://armygames2018.mil.ru/armygames2018_en

The teams from 33 countries will take part in the games: Azerbaijan, Angola, Algeria, Armenia, Bangladesh, Belarus, Venezuela, Vietnam, Greece , Egypt, Zimbabwe, Israel , Iran , India, Kazakhstan, Kuwait, China, Kirghizia, Laos, Myanmar, Morocco , Mongolia, Nicaragua, Pakistan , Russia, Serbia, Syria, Sudan, Tajikistan, Uganda, Uzbekistan, Philippines , South Africa .


Results of all disciplines http://armygames2018.mil.ru/results_en

Cant read crylic but hopefully they will update the website in english too in few days.


Yah, going through the links there more than a dozen events actually. The Aviadarts with fighter and bomber aircraft is a big one I heard of before.

Almost all of them are won by Roos or Cheen. The Iranians surprisingly beat the Russians in “Depth” which seems like a diving exercise.

Looks like we were only in three contests: the tank biathlon, the depth/diving one and something called the Elbrus Ring.

I did a google translate on the page and followed things from there. You can check the nation’s flag and see the exercise icons associated:
https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&nv=1&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=http://armygames2018.mil.ru/countries_participants_ru&xid=17259,15700002,15700019,15700124,15700126,15700149,15700168,15700186,15700190,15700201&usg=ALkJrhgtMaqTNLR4BlsU0SSsrPuLKwiVGA

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby chola » 12 Aug 2018 18:36

There are a lot of militaries involved and a lot more as observers. A massive marketing opportunity for exports so of course the chinis are there in force.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/08/01/asia/china-army-games-military-intl/index.html

(CNN) China is using a massive international military competition as "a marketing and advertising show" to sell its weapons and military goods, as the country seeks to solidify its place as one of the world's largest arms exporters.
. . .

At the opening ceremony for the army games in Russia, People's Liberation Army tanks, rocket launchers and helicopters were used during live fire sections.

During the Russia portions of the competition, Chinese H-6k bombers, J-10A fighter jets and Type 96B main battle tanks will be on display.


This is why I wanted the Arjun there. Why not showcase the Arjun and see if we can get any interest?

We talk about the chinis and “face” but I don’t see any evidence they give a chit. Their wheel fall off their MBT in the Tank Biathlon and becomes internet joke? But do they care? They come back the next year in force and showcase their wares in even greater numbers.

We lose a couple of T-90s and we shy away from bringing any of our tanks. We have no confidence and are afraid of a few eggs on our face. If the chinis can showcase their chit that breaks down in front of the world then what do we have to fear with the Arjun? We need to develop thicker skin and toughen up. This bothers me more than the results.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Khalsa » 13 Aug 2018 02:44

This comes from reading in between many lines posted by many gurus and some articles and many videos on the Tank Competition.

1. Only T-Series or Comparable Tanks are allowed. If India somehow did Abrams or LeClerc, we would not be allowed to bring that to the competition.
2. Bringing Arjun would be of no help whatsoever. Who are we going to sell to ? Belaraus or China or Kazaks. Each country who has their balls in Putin's drawer except China, who we shall be having the next war with. Inshallah !!
3. Placing our trust in Arjun over the T-series in the event means we are grossly overlooking the competence of our crews or incompetence.

I initially started out in the same place and wanted Arjun kicking ass but now I realise it will be more beneficial for our men to realise that they can't even make it into finals and China comes second. This fear will spur someone somewhere to say dammit we need to get better and promote more training and more continious training in Tank basics such as driving, shooting mastery etc etc etc.

Our infantry regiments go out for training so many times and they end up not only using US rifiles but jumping out of US planes and driving Russian tanks and BMPs in Vladivostok. This event must be for the men and improvement of the tank crew.

It was the crew here that won the day and won the night. Lets begin improving that straight away.

After all when we go to cricket world cup, we all use the same length of bat and same ball , don't we ?
Lets become a winning team.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Karan M » 13 Aug 2018 03:03

I can fairly predict that Indian units will do even worse in these exercises in Russia as we draw down our investment in Russian MIC. And PRC dog and pony wins will only increase, as the PRC sends "olympic teams" to such events trained and maintained for this express purpose.

Whether Su-57 or T-14, I am glad India is not falling for Russian vaporware anymore.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby chola » 13 Aug 2018 05:24

Khalsa wrote:
1. Only T-Series or Comparable Tanks are allowed. If India somehow did Abrams or LeClerc, we would not be allowed to bring that to the competition.


Not true. The Russians challenged the US to bring its Abrams to the Tank Biathlon.
http://amp.timeinc.net/thedrive/the-war-zone/11253/russia-challenges-u-s-tankers-to-compete-in-its-annual-tank-biathlon

If the chinis can bring the Type 96 there is no limit to only the T-series.

2. Bringing Arjun would be of no help whatsoever. Who are we going to sell to ? Belaraus or China or Kazaks. Each country who has their balls in Putin's drawer except China, who we shall be having the next war with. Inshallah !!


There are 33 countries participating and more there as observers. The customers that the chinis are chasing in the Army Games (Morocco, Egypt, Nicaragua, Uganda, etc.) are the same ones we will go after unless you are think we are going to sell to the West or Japan/Korea. What harm is there to showcase the Arjun?

And having Cheen there is perfect. It is a chance for us to gather intelligence and test our training against an adversary. The chinis are there in force. Not only their Type 96 MBT but I would love to have the IAF get first hand looks at their JH-7A, H-6K, J-10A and Y-9 at Aviadarts this year too!

3. Placing our trust in Arjun over the T-series in the event means we are grossly overlooking the competence of our crews or incompetence.


We need to place trust on our own products at some point. Right now we are overlooking our crews’ competence in their equipment by not bringing even the T-90 this year. AND we are grossly overlooking our competence in designing a MBT by refusing to bring the Arjun.

Lets become a winning team.


We might already have one if we are just confident enough to let them compete. That includes confidence in our designs by bringing the Arjun, in our training by bringing crews with their own equipment and in our outright ability by competing directly against the likes of Roos and Cheen.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Khalsa » 13 Aug 2018 08:59

Karan M wrote:Whether Su-57 or T-14, I am glad India is not falling for Russian vaporware anymore.


In that case IAF maybe the smartest of the three services.
I don't think IA tank commanders think Armata is vapour ware.

BTW, I am with you on your above.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Khalsa » 13 Aug 2018 09:03

Chola Sir,
The cream of Indian Armoured corps now commands the T-90 series.
The head of Indian armoured corps comes from the T-72 and T-90 series.

You might see Major Arjun Chauhan in Russia
You are not going to see an Arjun Chariot in Russia.

lets drop this and move on.
This happens every year sir. Last year it was ... our engines would not have failed if we had taken Arjun
this year it was us using Russian tanks.

Let it be a competition of the T-series boys.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Manish_P » 13 Aug 2018 10:26

'If the mountain will not come to Muhammad, then Muhammad must go to the mountain'

Let's have a tank biathlon here in India. Invite the Russians, the Europeans and sundry (heck with the Trump at the helm, even the yanks might participate with their Abrams)... and include the Arjun :mrgreen:

After all we did conduct the MMRCA quiet sucessfully, didn't we..

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Gyan » 13 Aug 2018 11:17

chola wrote:There are a lot of militaries involved and a lot more as observers. A massive marketing opportunity for exports so of course the chinis are there in force.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/08/01/asia/china-army-games-military-intl/index.html

(CNN) China is using a massive international military competition as "a marketing and advertising show" to sell its weapons and military goods, as the country seeks to solidify its place as one of the world's largest arms exporters.
. . .

At the opening ceremony for the army games in Russia, People's Liberation Army tanks, rocket launchers and helicopters were used during live fire sections.

During the Russia portions of the competition, Chinese H-6k bombers, J-10A fighter jets and Type 96B main battle tanks will be on display.


This is why I wanted the Arjun there. Why not showcase the Arjun and see if we can get any interest?

We talk about the chinis and “face” but I don’t see any evidence they give a chit. Their wheel fall off their MBT in the Tank Biathlon and becomes internet joke? But do they care? They come back the next year in force and showcase their wares in even greater numbers.

We lose a couple of T-90s and we shy away from bringing any of our tanks. We have no confidence and are afraid of a few eggs on our face. If the chinis can showcase their chit that breaks down in front of the world then what do we have to fear with the Arjun? We need to develop thicker skin and toughen up. This bothers me more than the results.


The failure to bring back our T90s worries me more then the mistakes and failures
The inhibition in bringing back our own tanks might mean that there are some inherent deficiencies in our tanks
In fact we should send more tanks and more men to these competitions so that they get additional exposure to men and equipment of other Nations also

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby ks_sachin » 13 Aug 2018 13:55

The failure to bring back our T90s worries me more then the mistakes and failures
The inhibition in bringing back our own tanks might mean that there are some inherent deficiencies in our tanks
In fact we should send more tanks and more men to these competitions so that they get additional exposure to men and equipment of other Nations also

What u mean by that Saar. We left our Tanks behind last year in Russia?

Oooo. Some heads would have rolled!!!!

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby AdityaM » 13 Aug 2018 15:20

you are pulling his leg...right?
he meant failure to bring our T90s back to russia


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