Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

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TKiran
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby TKiran » 18 May 2019 22:55

Actually the excavations were not started in ASI till BJP came to power after independence. Vajpayee's govt. wanted sites similar to Harappa Mohenjadaro in India.

Till then only explorations (explorations are different from excavations) were done and there was ample evidence of great sites in Gujarat, Rajasthan, Haryana, and also gangetic planes. Those sites were not excavated fearing that the Aryan invasion theory may get debunked.

Dhola Veera, bhirrana, Rakhigadhi etc were excavated because of pressure from Vajpayee govt.

Though there are many explorations done in south India after State departments of archaeology were formed, there was absolutely no interest in BJP to excavate the sites in south India. There are Rock arts in chintalkunta in cuddappah district in Andhra Pradesh, that are 30,000-40,000 years old. The flora and fauna depicted and celestial events recorded are found much better than in a similar cave and Rock arts in south Africa. But those caves were demolished by some Reddy who took the permission of the forest department for mining, and used gelatin sticks to demolish the whole hill. History lost. This is only one story.

There is evidence of continuous civilization of south India for atleast 30,000 years.

ASI doesn't want south Indian history to come out, already south India has great temples and gives much more sophisticated history of south India than the North.

Just see and Google "Keeladi" you will understand the politics.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby ShyamSP » 19 May 2019 03:04

TKiran wrote:...
Similarly, Gottiprolu I linked above has a potential to unearth the south Indian maritime history, and the North Indians are already trying to close the site. They have awarded the site where excavation is going on to Social Welfare board, and they want to build a modern ladies hostel at exactly the same place where the excavation is going on.
.


Huh? Disappointing if they gave away to destroy the site. I visited nearby village last year. When I saw your news link in previous page and got enthused to visit this site next time I go to that area.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Lilo » 19 May 2019 12:36

TKiran ji, into lemurian politics of North vs South nowadin ?
TKiran wrote:... BJP being a North Indians party, doesn't want south Indian history to be explored.
TKiran wrote:....
ASI doesn't want south Indian history to come out, already south India has great temples and gives much more sophisticated history of south India than the North.

Just see and Google "Keeladi" you will understand the politics.

Image

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby sarathy » 19 May 2019 16:09

Lilo wrote:TKiran ji, into lemurian politics of North vs South nowadin ?
TKiran wrote:... BJP being a North Indians party, doesn't want south Indian history to be explored.
TKiran wrote:....
ASI doesn't want south Indian history to come out, already south India has great temples and gives much more sophisticated history of south India than the North.

Just see and Google "Keeladi" you will understand the politics.



Unfortunately, it does exist on the ground. Heck, I see that happening in UK. :(( :evil:

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby suryag » 19 May 2019 18:13

Tkiran next time you bring this N-S divide you get an instant ban

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby wig » 20 May 2019 13:08

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... NSXQI1Tsoc

In Haryana’s Kunal village, a glimpse of life before Harappa
Kunal village in Haryana’s Fatehabad is one of the oldest pre-Harappan settlements. The seventh round of excavations, which started in January and ended two weeks ago, will bring to the forefront more about the lives of people — mostly artisans associated with Hakraware culture.

excerpted
Located at a distance of 12km from Ratia tehsil, Kunal is one of the oldest pre-Harappan settlements and dates back roughly to the 5th millennium BC. The roughly 6,000-year-old site holds within it a rich legacy and its ties to the past can possibly help trace the history of Haryana, and the country

and

Hakraware refers to the cultural material that has been traced to the pre-Harappan phase. The word is a combination of two words: Hakra and ware. While ware means pottery, the word Hakra traces its origins to the palaeochannel of Ghaggar-Hakra that flows through India and Pakistan. The river channel is known as Ghaggar in India and Hakra further downstream in Pakistan.

Hakraware was first traced to Cholistan in Pakistan along the banks of the river Hakra, and Harappan sites in India have also yielded cultural material resembling that of the Cholistan region. The excavations at Kunal were aimed at digging deep into Hakra culture. “When Harappan sites were first excavated in Cholistan, a typical distinctive pottery was found along the banks of the Hakra river.


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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Rudradev » 29 May 2019 21:53

For anyone who wants an excellent basic primer on genetics-based argumentation around OOI vs AIT, this is a MUST-WATCH video.



Dr. Vedam is not a geneticist but has a deep background in statistical analysis. He clearly describes how statistic methodologies and questionable assumption are used by the pro-AIT crowd to fudge genetic data in order to arrive at pre-ordained conclusions.

There are a few small errors in his exposition of genetics:
1) He says repeatedly "99.9% of us carry identical DNA". This isn't quite right. In fact, 100% of us share complete DNA sequence identity at 99.9% of the 3 X 10^9 base pairs in the human genome ((barring variations in short-tandem repeats, but that's a minor issue). So 99.9% of DNA sequence is common to all Homo sapiens. All variation that exists, is contained within the remaining 3 X 10^6 base pairs in the genome (i.e. 0.01% of our chromosomal DNA).

2) He uses the term "genetic drift" to mean the net effect of variations in lineages induced by mutations over time. This isn't the correct meaning of the term "genetic drift", which has to do with changes of allele frequencies in a population resulting from random sampling in mating. Image

But otherwise his analysis is bang-on. Again, highly recommended for anyone who does not come from a background in biology or genetics.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby siqir » 30 May 2019 17:51

Nice talk from J.P. Mallory on the various challenges archaeologists face when re-interpreting data in light of game-changer aDNA studies "If you see a diagram dating language splits, distrusylt them' #CHPG


https://mobile.twitter.com/JRodrigo_F/s ... 2600222727

lol it is going to be fun watching them slowly deal with the implications

will they stretch out the acceptance phase over decades or will it be centuries like for geocentrism

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby siqir » 04 Jun 2019 18:15

new dna paper on origins of bactrian camel

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/656231v1

from page 12

Bactrian camels were first domesticated in the area of Iran around 10 thousand years ago


and then spread over caspian sea kazakhstan and to mongolia

this has some impact on dating of rig veda as per talageri

http://talageri.blogspot.com/2016/07/th ... an_27.html

the “Bactrian camel was domesticated in Central Asia in the late 3rd mill. BCE” (Witzel)
...
The five Old Books of the Rigveda (6,3,7,4,2) clearly belong to a period earlier to the invention of spokes and the domestication of the Bactrian camel


putting the old claims and new data together could imply rig veda older than 10ky

but the paper did not use ancient dna only modern ones and it is not clear how they see domestication so that 10ky date may change
and we would also need data from india to pinpoint when we got them

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby siqir » 13 Jun 2019 14:53

Fabricating Evidence in Support of the Aryan Invasion / Migration Theory

https://www.academia.edu/39516972/Fabri ... ion_Theory

in this hard hitting piece michel danino clearly calls out harvards anti hindutva political agenda in promoting ait and also the shameful treatment by so called scientists and historians of anyone who opposed their views

given the importance of the issue i think we are bound to see lot more fabricated evidence in coming years and decades in archaeology and maybe even genetics which may not be distinguishable from the real thing

which will lead to long stalemate type situation in this debate

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 14 Jun 2019 09:18

Stalemate can be avoided if Indian kids & adults are taught OIT in schools, with all its attendant evidence from Day 1. It should be part of the larger "Indian civilization narrative".

So, when kids grow up and hear about this theory called AIT, full of holes, they will laugh at it and laugh at the shoddiness that is "Western Academia".

AIT-OIT debates should be restricted to a handful of conferences, within academic circles. Internally, we should saturate the airwaves with paper after paper in support of OIT across a spectrum of disciplines.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby siqir » 11 Jul 2019 18:59

https://mobile.twitter.com/csen_nomads/ ... 7647368192

"THE BUGAT INSCRIPTION: the oldest Mongolian language monument. A recently-published study of Brahmi script on the Bugat stele, erected 584-587AD, concluded it may have been a Mongolian-language inscription. This is Mongolian studies' greatest discovery in the last few years!"


https://www.academia.edu/39716045/A_Ske ... scriptions

apparently this brahmi text now deciphered as an altaic mongolic language which they are calling ruan ruan predates oldest texts of even korean and japanese

wikipedia sez rouran people were the first to use the title khan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rouran_Khaganate

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby ashbhee » 12 Jul 2019 19:54

Indus Valley bulls sired West Asia stock

Bronze Age people transported bulls from the Indus Valley region to breed cattle across west Asia and east Africa, starting about 4000 years ago to combat increasing aridity, scientists reported on Thursday.

Interesting to see a Major newspaper cover this in front page. Good job Deccan Herald.

Read more at: https://www.deccanherald.com/national/i ... 46537.html

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 12 Jul 2019 22:19

Brilliant!

This was talked about in Swadeshi Indology Conference 3 also. The genetic pattern of domesticated cattle movement is a clinching proof of OIT. Zebu bulls or cows don't wander across the Himalayan passes on their own. They were taken there by migrating Indians moving West

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Pulikeshi » 13 Jul 2019 05:35

Prem Kumar wrote:Brilliant!

This was talked about in Swadeshi Indology Conference 3 also. The genetic pattern of domesticated cattle movement is a clinching proof of OIT. Zebu bulls or cows don't wander across the Himalayan passes on their own. They were taken there by migrating Indians moving West


I think someone should float a Dravidian Invasion Or Migration Theory (DIT) of Europe! :mrgreen: :P

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 13 Jul 2019 05:37

https://www.natureasia.com/en/nmiddleea ... t.2019.100
“This study of ancient Near Eastern cattle has very interesting parallels to what we know about human populations from ancient DNA,” says Harvard Medical School geneticist Iosif Lazaridis, who was not involved in the research but has done extensive genetics work on early humans and agriculture. “South Asia, which is where Bos Indicus originated, was not isolated during this period. People seem to have migrated from the Indus Valley civilization into Central Asia around the same time as the climatic effect that happened around 4,200 years ago. This may have introduced zebu cattle ancestry into Near Eastern cattle populations.”

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 13 Jul 2019 08:14

Rudradev wrote:

There are a few small errors in his exposition of genetics:
1) He says repeatedly "99.9% of us carry identical DNA". This isn't quite right. In fact, 100% of us share complete DNA sequence identity at 99.9% of the 3 X 10^9 base pairs in the human genome ((barring variations in short-tandem repeats, but that's a minor issue). So 99.9% of DNA sequence is common to all Homo sapiens. All variation that exists, is contained within the remaining 3 X 10^6 base pairs in the genome (i.e. 0.01% of our chromosomal DNA).

2) He uses the term "genetic drift" to mean the net effect of variations in lineages induced by mutations over time. This isn't the correct meaning of the term "genetic drift", which has to do with changes of allele frequencies in a population resulting from random sampling in mating. Image



Good points. I also tend to make similar errors in my presentations. For one, my background is not in genetics (although I studying it a lot including the thick document you sent a while ago) + At times, I have to make a compromise between being technically correct vs ease of comprehension (e.g. mitochondrial mtDNA vs X chromosome, etc.)

Still, as you said, a very good presentation summarizing Genetics. He and Sham on The Sham Sharma show also discussed genetics and AIT.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby siqir » 13 Jul 2019 11:03

lazaridis seems to be saying we took zebu to central asia but not to near east

meaning steppe warriors swooped in drove dravidians south indoeuropeanized the north and took zebu to levant blah blah

accepting mitanni and kassites are from india and not from sintashta would break ait in many ways
Last edited by siqir on 14 Jul 2019 00:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 13 Jul 2019 18:41

Siqir: is this what Laziridis is saying?

I wouldn't be surprised. He is from that Aryan Supremacist Reich's lab, which cooks up genetic support to linguistic theories.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 13 Jul 2019 18:41

Also, Swamy tweeted that Talageri is writing a rejoinder book to counter Tony Joseph's drivel

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby siqir » 13 Jul 2019 19:02

we cannot be sure until they publish their papers

but the quote seemed carefully constructed and diplomatically open to misinterpretation

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 13 Jul 2019 19:33

The paper has already been published. It quite clearly says that Indus Valley people took the Zebu Bull to Fertile Crescent, Egypt etc to mate with the local cows there. Pretty clinching evidence in favor of OIT!!

Lazaridis was not a contributor to the paper. He's just giving his opinion on the findings.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/365/6449/173https://science.sciencemag.org/content/365/6449/173

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Shwetank » 13 Jul 2019 20:28

Even the quote from Lazaridis in A_Gupta's post above has him saying they migrated from indus around 4200 years ago (~ 2200 BC), which would be pre-AIT (which we learnt as around 1500 BC) unless they have shifted the dates for AIT earlier now? Of course, this doesn't mean he is rejecting AIT, he could believe it still happened afterwards. So, worst case he considers OIT followed by AIT? well it's progress, first time time acknowledging there could be migration out of India westwards.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby siqir » 13 Jul 2019 20:48

i meant until the harvard central and south asia ancient human dna papers are updated or published

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby siqir » 27 Jul 2019 11:47

new ancient dna paper on so called tocharians

https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fu ... 60-9822(19)30771-7

what they found is some r1b ydna related to yamnaya in xinjiang circa 200 BC

then with circular logic trying to claim these are tocharians and thus it proves yamnaya were proto indoeuropeans with no actual linguistic or archaeological evidence

in fact the earlier spanish adna paper had evidence that yamnaya were not indoeuropean and all the mycenae greek dna so far is j and not even r1 from steppe
all of which is just ignored

what is funny is the r1a east euro supremacists disagreeing with the paper since it puts r1b west euros on top in the pie game haha

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 27 Jul 2019 14:04

Shrikant Talageri has laid out a solid sequence of Out-of-India migration, based on Rig Vedic, Avestan literary evidence as well as linguistic models. As Elst said, Talageri has singe-handedly won the AIT-OIT debate. What our geneticists need to do is start collecting aDNA from Indians, Iranians, Baltics, Slavics, Tocharians, Greeks etc and see if it fits the model. I strongly suspect that it will.

Instead our folks take forever to publish one Rakhigarhi aDNA paper that's been promised for 2 years! We are tamasic shits and wonder why European racists run away with the narrative.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby siqir » 02 Aug 2019 19:07

https://mobile.twitter.com/meghkalyansu ... 7063543808

gyaneshwer chaubey says

The overall distribution of R1a and its associated branches rejects its arrival from Steppe

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 07 Aug 2019 11:08

Prem Kumar wrote:Also, Swamy tweeted that Talageri is writing a rejoinder book to counter Tony Joseph's drivel

Book is out there and available via Garuda Prakashan + also on Amazon.in (India)

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby banrjeer » 07 Aug 2019 11:43

I was surprised to hear this.
Please note the strange resemblance of Turkmen in cadence and meter to both dravidian languages due to frequent and arbitrarily positioned gemination and classical Sanskrit through frequent compounds.

It's a strongly moratimed language. It's not an easily transmitted trait. It is long lived and it transcends language families. Need to check out if other Turkic languages have this trait. The trait seems much weaker in Azeri.


https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/06/asia/tur ... index.html

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby banrjeer » 07 Aug 2019 12:54

Prem Kumar wrote:Siqir: is this what Laziridis is saying?

I wouldn't be surprised. He is from that Aryan Supremacist Reich's lab, which cooks up genetic support to linguistic theories.



Lazardis is far more balanced in his publications than Reich e.g. the Minoan paper a far cry from Narsimhan and Reich.
Reich is no supremacist he is jewish etc. His main drawback is that he seems very compelled to fit migration into neat symmetric buckets which can be unrealistic

Vagheesh Narsimhan and Patterson from Reich labs seems very bullish on a steppe only scenario

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby krishGo » 22 Aug 2019 04:12

Prof B B Lal on OIT & archeological findings on the itihasas


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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby vimal » 23 Aug 2019 01:13

Another nonsense Aryan/Dravidian/AIT video.


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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby vimal » 23 Aug 2019 01:24

siqir wrote:Fabricating Evidence in Support of the Aryan Invasion / Migration Theory

https://www.academia.edu/39516972/Fabri ... ion_Theory

in this hard hitting piece michel danino clearly calls out harvards anti hindutva political agenda in promoting ait and also the shameful treatment by so called scientists and historians of anyone who opposed their views



The article has been deleted.


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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby vimal » 23 Aug 2019 08:22



Awesome, thank you!


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