Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 16 Aug 2014 09:42

Virendra wrote:
shiv wrote:There is/was a guy on DFI who openly said he was of north Indian Aryan stock and was pointing out how the black dravidian south Indians are ugly and a different race and that his lot definitely came from somewhere up north - Russia or somewhere. He posted lots of photos of people from north Indian and Russia and and compared them with selected photos from south India to prove his point. I am sure the thread still exists. And he was not even Paki.
So it would be wrong to generalize that all Indian followers of AIT are people who are being unfairly dissed.

He is a Kashmiri Dogra shiv.
By the way, I think we share three forums (IFG being the third) .. am I right ?


:D Yes.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem » 18 Aug 2014 21:31

http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroas ... avaeja.htm
"Good Lands and Countries" of the Vendidad
*Chakhrem is used in Yasht 13.89 and means wheel (or revolving; cf. Persian charkh meaning wheel) and is used there as chakhrem urvaesayata in the context of Zarathushtra being the first member of every professional guild opposed to the daevas. Avestan Chakhrem urvaesayata is similar to the Sanskrit chakhram vartay and chakhravartin meaning 'chariot over the land' or 'ruler'. The western Mitanni were known for their expertise in chariot-building and this may or may not have relevance.

** The seven Indus Rivers, Hapta Hindu (nation #15 above), are: 1. the Indus (Veda-Sindhu), the 2. Kabul and 3. Kurram rivers joining on the west and north banks of the Indus, and the 4. Jhelum (Veda-Vitasta), 5. Chenab (Veda-Asikni), 6. Ravi (Veda-Airovati), and 7. Sutlej/Beas (Veda-Vipasa) rivers joining the Indus' east and south banks. (There is some discussion that the Saraswati River mentioned in Hindu Vedic texts was also an Indus tributary - though this is not clear.) The Hindu texts are mainly concerned with the eastern & southern tributaries while the Zoroastrian texts are concerned with the upper reaches of the Indus and all its tributaries whose valleys would have provided access to the plains - areas north and west of the Punjab (Panj-ab meaning five waters in Persian) - i.e. present-day North-West Frontier Province in Northern Pakistan, Northern Punjab and Kashmir in India and Pakistan.
*** Gandhara/Waihind. The land of the upper Indus basin was known as Gandhara or Waihind. Today, the region has Peshawar, Mardan, Mingora and Chitral as its main cities. It would have extended into all the habitable valleys of the south-eastern Hindu Kush. The Gandhara/Waihind region includes the Indus, Swat, Chitral and Kabul River valleys. It may have extended south to Takshashila (Taxila) (near present-day Islamabad) and present-day Jalalabad, Afghanistan, in the west, thus bordering Vaekerata (Kabul) to the east.
Check the Map.Upper Tigris area of Iraq/ Kurdistan is called Rangha or Ranghya . Ranga Was Khush even that time.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby panduranghari » 18 Aug 2014 23:32



So many Treasures in that link. Thanks.

Do read this one too .link

Influenced, by eka-rAkShasa-mata-s of different types, the western thinkers, ideologues and rakShasa-vAdin-s have tried to portray the expansion of the Indo-European as a negative event that destroyed and annihilated the native populations.
The Indians, at the biding of their Western masters internalized this model in many different ways:
1) Some utilized this as political tool to justify Dravidian politics.
2) Others, like the otherwise reputed nationalistic historian R.C. Majumdar, used to create a dramatized narrative of early Indian history in which they envisioned long-drawn, heroic battles between Dravidian-s and the incoming Arya-s.
3) A slew of anti-national Marxist historians and their Naxalite followers used it justify their attacks on Indo-Aryan tradition, their lionization of religions of love and peace, and the incitement of tribesmen to disrupt their symbiosis with the non-tribal populations.
4) Finally, in more recent times, arose denialist movements among Hindu nationalists: These implicitly accepted the western view of the Indo-European expansions as a negative event and also in an interesting way internalized the Indo-Aryan-Dravidian divide as being an uncomfortable issue. But being nationalists they had to deal with the discomfort arising from image of the Arya-s this view created. Hence, they resorted to either calling for the “Out of India hypothesis” or madly denying linguistics itself.

What they do not realize is that the eka-rAkShasa-mata-s want to create a negative image of Indo-European tradition and want to downsize its achievements and no amount of denial is going to change what you are – since Hindus as heathens remain the last major surviving Indo-European tradition even if they deny it.

The genomic evidence combined with cultural evidence suggests that Indo-European expansion was hardly a negative event. Rather, it was a pivotal event and a new technological regime that provide a sought after cultural ideal under which people of all kinds of genetic backgrounds in India and the rest of Eurasia were incorporated (as the kashyapa would say: “kR^iNvanto vishvam AryaM”). This refined heathen cultural ideal (still preserved in India in the term saMskR^ita) was to spawn thought process that led to most great intellectual achievements of the human world as we know it. The destructive and genocidal forces were not the Indo-Europeans as the eka-rAkShasa-vAdin-s want everyone to believe, but certain ideologies emanating from West Asia.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby chetak » 19 Aug 2014 12:28

shiv wrote:
Virendra wrote:{quote="shiv"}There is/was a guy on DFI who openly said he was of north Indian Aryan stock and was pointing out how the black dravidian south Indians are ugly and a different race and that his lot definitely came from somewhere up north - Russia or somewhere. He posted lots of photos of people from north Indian and Russia and and compared them with selected photos from south India to prove his point. I am sure the thread still exists. And he was not even Paki.
So it would be wrong to generalize that all Indian followers of AIT are people who are being unfairly dissed.{/quote}

He is a Kashmiri Dogra shiv.
By the way, I think we share three forums (IFG being the third) .. am I right ?


:D Yes.


Sorry, don't mean to step on any toes but....

wasn't there some issue about the DFI forum being paki sponsored/owned?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 19 Aug 2014 13:19

chetak wrote:
Sorry, don't mean to step on any toes but....

wasn't there some issue about the DFI forum being paki sponsored/owned?

No. The stuff said about Pakis there would not pass BRadminullas. You ought to try it - makes an interesting change.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 19 Aug 2014 18:24

This is a good article on Aryan/Drvidian. Caste/Tribal, 'Adi'vasi, Caucasoid/Australoid bullsh*t propelled for last 200 years.

Genetics and the Aryan Debate
By Michel Danino

http://archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/ ... yan-debate

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Pulikeshi » 19 Aug 2014 18:29

Any insights into the MohenjoDaro movie being made?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 19 Aug 2014 19:35

@Pulikesi

There is one good documentary available on Dholavira in youtube.

Though, till recently, Mohen-jo-Daro was considered to be the largest IVC site, it is ISC Rakhigarhi now. Deccan College guys have done good work with ASI on Rakhigarhi site. With the help of GPR they have confirmed that it is so far the biggest ISC site ever.

The so called post harappan migration shows eastward trend, but, in Puratatva - Indian Archaeological Society journal 39, 2009, BB Lal has written a good article suggesting westward migration too with three solid evidences.

***

Documentary on Dholavira

The Masters of the River

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnsatmxY7Kc

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 19 Aug 2014 19:40

From Michel Danino's article posted above

Another important point is that looking at mtDNA as a whole, “even the high castes share more than 80 per cent of their maternal lineages with the lower castes and tribals”; this obviously runs counter to the invasionist thesis. Taking all aspects into consideration, the authors conclude: “We believe that there are now enough reasons not only to question a ‘recent Indo-Aryan invasion’ into India some 4000 BP, but alternatively to consider India as a part of the common gene pool ancestral to the diversity of human maternal lineages in Europe.” Mark the word “ancestral.”

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Agnimitra » 20 Aug 2014 11:02


shiv
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 20 Aug 2014 18:31

Agnimitra wrote:What do the pundits make of this?

Chinese excavations likely to redefine Zoroastrianism’s origin


Nice finds but "Place of origin" is unlikely. Zoroastrianism is much older than 2500 BC. 2500 BC is recent. Darius the great and his Zoroastrian Persian empire were already there at that time. There are some references to Magi and Zoroastrian traditions going back to 1000 BC (3000 years ago).

Finally there is no avoiding the fact that the Zoroastrian texts refer to "hapta Hindu" which is a cognate of "sapta Sindhu". Even Witzelian archaeology puts all that as older than 3000 BC.

But I like the way the Chinese declare that what they have is the oldest/biggest/best. Americans have done that for years.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby AniB » 21 Aug 2014 20:41

From the farticle above:
"This is a typical wooden brazier found in the tombs. Zoroastrians would bury a burning brazier with the dead to show their worship of fire. The culture is unique to Zoroastrianism."

This does not make sense. There is no question of burial, nor defiling the Fire with the dead. It is also specified that dead bodies should only be placed on stone not wood which can become contaminated by the evil humors ‘druj’.
On the other hand it is believed that the ‘homeland’ Airyanam Vaejo/Dakhyunam was somewhat North of Persia or Bactria[url]http://heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/aryans/airyanavaeja.htm#migration[/url]. Perhaps this is another pre Zarathustric culture where handling of the dead bears stronger resemblance to Vedic rites.
Perhaps the science is good but the reporting awful.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby member_22872 » 25 Aug 2014 20:02

A nice documentary on Trisandhaa a style of Rg Vedic chanting as practiced only in Kerala - the so called "Bird calls" a beautiful narration.
[youtube]AbH2txwA8sM&list=PLm7v5mcn_O-ItmivvOY40KW0hcyjRJINM[/youtube]

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby JE Menon » 25 Aug 2014 21:37

Thank you venug. Sublime and evocative.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem » 26 Aug 2014 21:07

The Depth of Indian Culture - Sadhguru
( Temple in Lebanon build by Desi men)

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby vsunder » 27 Aug 2014 01:21

JEM: Mail sent to your old address bounces, the one with an arachnid flavor. There is plenty of stuff that I have, to show, pl. send me a test message, old email is fine or others too. Sorry for the OT post.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby JE Menon » 27 Aug 2014 09:33

On a separate note, is there any corroboration of Sadhguru's claim about Indian workmen and sculptors building Baalbeck... I have been there maybe five times, and this did not strike me at all.. It has a very strong pre-christian Greco-Roman feel (especially if you have also visited similar ruins in Italy and Greece as well as other places in the Mediterranean).

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby ramana » 27 Aug 2014 20:28

Just to recall

It was Khusarau who wrote the immortal
Agar firdaus bar roo-e zameen ast,
Hameen ast-o hameen ast-o hameen ast.

If there is a paradise on earth,
It is this, it is this, it is this (India)!



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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 27 Aug 2014 20:56

Folks - I am currently reading about Ancient Greek philosophers. Some of their beliefs have an uncanny correlation with Hindu beliefs - will post quotes and sources but I will first correlate with Hindu sources. The Greek refs on average are 500 to 1000 years after Vedic India and the refs are vague and incomplete as if they ideas were heard but not fully understood or followed through.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby ramana » 27 Aug 2014 21:02

Shiv, Aristotle and all called it metaphysics that is beyond physical world.

And also look at Martin Heidigger, a German philosopher who comes full circle in 20th century.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 30 Aug 2014 01:45

Shiv,

Look forward to it (Greek philosophers and their correlation with Hindu thought). I had explored few - Thales, Anximander, Xenophanes.. etc. in the context of their cosmology theories.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby UlanBatori » 30 Aug 2014 03:35

If there is a paradise on (hic!) earth,
It is this, it is this (hic!), it is this (Pakistan Of course)!


I always thought there was a more than a dash of Rooh Afza /Zam zam Cola in that creation.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby JE Menon » 30 Aug 2014 13:48

The "naked philosopher", or "gymnosophistis", is a recurring character in ancient Greek writings. It is surmised that gents of this type wandering around unclothed (barely clothed I suspect) expounding philosophical theory and debating with the locals; it is also speculated that the person(s) in question came from India. Seems sadhu/sant/gury type characters heading westward is not a new phenomenon by any means...

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 30 Aug 2014 14:16

Nilesh Oak wrote:Shiv,

Look forward to it (Greek philosophers and their correlation with Hindu thought). I had explored few - Thales, Anximander, Xenophanes.. etc. in the context of their cosmology theories.

Nilesh - I have a problem. I have written an entire (short ~150pgs) book but I lost my way when I figured out more about the Vedas and their relationship with our culture. But the OIT/anti-AIT material I have is solid. I think I will simply move on and add to the matter - but I need to correlate Greek writings with Upanishads. Wil update as and when things become more clear.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 30 Aug 2014 23:12

shiv wrote:
Nilesh Oak wrote:Shiv,

Look forward to it (Greek philosophers and their correlation with Hindu thought). I had explored few - Thales, Anximander, Xenophanes.. etc. in the context of their cosmology theories.

Nilesh - I have a problem. I have written an entire (short ~150pgs) book but I lost my way when I figured out more about the Vedas and their relationship with our culture. But the OIT/anti-AIT material I have is solid. I think I will simply move on and add to the matter - but I need to correlate Greek writings with Upanishads. Wil update as and when things become more clear.


Familiar with writings of R D Ranade? You MAY find them useful... comparison of Upanishadik thought and others (e.g. Greeks).

---
If you are finding that there are few subjects that you are writing about.. or writing about one subject but with few distinct aspects that do not gel together. You may still cover them in one book but with those many different sections (or compile them as essays on one common subject). Just my Rs. 0.02.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Vayutuvan » 31 Aug 2014 01:16

In fact I remember reading a play many moons (many many many) ago by somebody whose name start with Psuedo-x (I forgot what x was but from the preface remember that it was to have been written around the time of x in the same style but not quite and hence the prefix) whose title is "Alexander and Three Brahmins". The play describes Alexander while on his way back to Egypt by the sea route passes through now what is the state of Gujarat. During this overland journey he runs into three brahmins (at this point probably he was given a free passage by Chnadragupta Maurya) and the dialog that takes place.

It is within the realm of plausibility that Alexander and his army were not the first visitors to India. If some solid evidence is found of travelers from Greece pre-Pythagorus (570 BCE – c. 495 BCE) and since Boudhayana predates him, we can with high confidence that greeks got started in mathematics (at least) dipping into Indian knowledge base.

Pythagoras was a believer in a version of reincarnation which matches 99.9% of hindu philosophy propunded in "bhagawat GIta". Here is the extract from Wiki.

Religion and science
Pythagoras' religious and scientific views were, in his opinion, inseparably interconnected. Religiously, Pythagoras was a believer of metempsychosis. He believed in transmigration, or the reincarnation of the soul again and again into the bodies of humans, animals, or vegetables until it became immortal. His ideas of reincarnation were influenced by ancient Greek religion. Heraclides Ponticus reports the story that Pythagoras claimed that he had lived four previous lives that he could remember in detail.[52] One of his past lives, as reported by Aulus Gellius, was as a beautiful courtesan.[53] According to Xenophanes, Pythagoras heard the cry of his dead friend in the bark of a dog.[54]

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby peter » 01 Sep 2014 05:33

Virendra wrote:....
That migration too would most likely be from India (the refugia till now) to outside, where fresh land vacated by the receding Ice is available for enterprise.
In my opinion, any shoot offs under the various brainstorming & hypothetical theories would fit better, if it occurs within the past 10k-12k years.

Regards,
Virendra

What you say is reasonable. But how do you get supporting data for this?
Do you or others here on BRF know what this guy is doing with genetics data
http://www.harappadna.org/? What is an admixture calculator and how does it work?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 01 Sep 2014 05:37

Nilesh Oak wrote:
Familiar with writings of R D Ranade? You MAY find them useful... comparison of Upanishadik thought and others (e.g. Greeks).

---
If you are finding that there are few subjects that you are writing about.. or writing about one subject but with few distinct aspects that do not gel together. You may still cover them in one book but with those many different sections (or compile them as essays on one common subject). Just my Rs. 0.02.

Thanks for the inputs.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 01 Sep 2014 05:43

matrimc wrote:In fact I remember reading a play many moons (many many many) ago by somebody whose name start with Psuedo-x (I forgot what x was but from the preface remember that it was to have been written around the time of x in the same style but not quite and hence the prefix) whose title is "Alexander and Three Brahmins". The play describes Alexander while on his way back to Egypt by the sea route passes through now what is the state of Gujarat. During this overland journey he runs into three brahmins (at this point probably he was given a free passage by Chnadragupta Maurya) and the dialog that takes place.

It is within the realm of plausibility that Alexander and his army were not the first visitors to India. If some solid evidence is found of travelers from Greece pre-Pythagorus (570 BCE – c. 495 BCE) and since Boudhayana predates him, we can with high confidence that greeks got started in mathematics (at least) dipping into Indian knowledge base.

Pythagoras was a believer in a version of reincarnation which matches 99.9% of hindu philosophy propunded in "bhagawat GIta". Here is the extract from Wiki.

Religion and science
Pythagoras' religious and scientific views were, in his opinion, inseparably interconnected. Religiously, Pythagoras was a believer of metempsychosis. He believed in transmigration, or the reincarnation of the soul again and again into the bodies of humans, animals, or vegetables until it became immortal. His ideas of reincarnation were influenced by ancient Greek religion. Heraclides Ponticus reports the story that Pythagoras claimed that he had lived four previous lives that he could remember in detail.[52] One of his past lives, as reported by Aulus Gellius, was as a beautiful courtesan.[53] According to Xenophanes, Pythagoras heard the cry of his dead friend in the bark of a dog.[54]

These links lead to images of pages from a book I am reading that correllate with this
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3JNY4 ... sp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3JNY4 ... sp=sharing

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Vayutuvan » 01 Sep 2014 09:05

Shiv ji: Interesting that the correlation is quite good but not 100%, i.e. somebody took the material from the reference Wiki points to and changed subtly to the one your link points to. It is almost like somebody did not want to accept the thesis being proposed in wikipedia reference.

wikipedia wrote:His ideas of reincarnation were influenced by ancient Greek religion.


where as the link you pointed to says thusly:
The pythagoreans believed that the human sole was immortal and in this they were to some extent at odds with mainstream Greek beliefs where the state of post-mortem existence, if there was any such state at all, had little to commend to it.


This source, for some reasons only known to the author, wants to distance itself from re-incarnation.
French first name René ((Renée being the feminine form) as in René Descartes.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 01 Sep 2014 16:38

matrimc the point to note is that Pythagoras himself is dated about 1000 years after Vedic (pre-Buddha) times. To me it appears that there was some information that had filtered through to Greece but Greeks went in a completely different direction, being unexposed to the developments in India. This might possibly have been (my theory) because of the rise of the Zoroastrian Persian empire.

In any case very little of most of these older Greeks survives apart from references in later writings - esp Aristotle (and allegedly Plato whose on writings are missing I think). So everything is second, third or later hand.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby kenop » 01 Sep 2014 22:26

CK Raju has some clear views on "decolonization of science"
References to Greeks and their (alleged, as per CKR) expertise in mathematics is discussed here
http://reflections-shivanand.blogspot.i ... ics-c.html
Some ref here too http://ckraju.net/blog/?p=52
It would be useful to get to know his ideas.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 02 Sep 2014 09:36

Here is a terrific paper that was brought to my attention by vsunder. The matter suggests what Aurobindo also said in his book about the Vedas - that the sounds of the Vedas were sounds that have been handed down to humanity from a time before any language existed. This also gels in with KLP Dubey's assertion that the Vedas are sounds, not stories.

Read the paper at the following link
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3JNY4 ... sp=sharing

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 06 Sep 2014 00:15

Listen to R S Bisht, who excavated Dholavira. Some interesting observations

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjlY-1VfC_g

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby chandrasekhar.m » 06 Sep 2014 10:06



Shatavadhaani Dr R Ganesh (from Bengaluru) talks about the Aryan Invasion Myth, Indus Valley Civilisation and related issues for the first half of this lecture. He mentions historical evidence (from the Vedas too), archaeology, linguistics, Saraswati river among other things. He is an extremely learned man who has read the primary sources on Indian religions, philosophy, culture and history in the original (in various current and ancient languages) along with various secondary sources.

Please watch the other parts in this series too. Lots of info about Indian culture in there that I never knew about, that I have to watch it more than once to understand and remember even parts of what he said.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby member_26011 » 06 Sep 2014 21:19

The discussion of Greek correlation is timely because of the misappropriation of causation by many inimical or ignorant to what I consider the record. In a recent discussion with someone whose religious motives I suspect, an argument was made to me that the Mahabharat didn't firm up until the late 100 AD, that megasthenes may have brought Krishna to chandragupta. Worse, who copied whom is difficult to determine after all these years, it was claimed. The amazing thing is how this kind of revisionism gains any traction.

The few points that I can rely on are largely external. things like Heroclitus, a point that Heracles replicating Krishna is a copyright violation by megasthenes and the point that he himself seems to provide a 138 generation route to Krishna contradicts other claims. Greeks may be the original plagiarists of all time is my line of argument.

But more difficult to grasp is the liberty everyone seems to have in dating events of such fundamental importance, flipping causality at will. My own ignorance of the sequence of dates is an obvious factor in effectively responding to such propaganda.

So, my question to all here is, is Vartak's dating of Mahabharata to be believed? I also use much of the work covered here on BRF such as on horses, and particularly drawing on Kazanas' work and on Sarawati's dating including Valdiya's rebuttal to Giosan. Still, what is the date one should be quoting MB and where does that lie on the OIT timescale?

Thanks in advance, happy Onam!
C.B

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 09 Sep 2014 19:29

Origins of Iron Working in India


http://archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/iron-ore


The date and origin of the introduction of iron artefacts and iron working into India has remained a much debated research problem, not unconnected with the equally debatable question of its association with the supposed arrival, in the second millennium BCE, of immigrants from the west, as often suggested on the basis of the Rigveda. Around the middle of the last century, iron-working origins in India were dated to c. 700-600 BCE (Gordon 1950; Wheeler 1959). Subsequently, a combination of an association with Painted Grey Ware (PGW) and the advent of radiocarbon dating began to push this date back towards the second millennium BCE, a period which had in fact favoured by some scholars earlier in the early twentieth century (Chakrabarti 1992: 10-12).


...

These results indicate that iron using and iron working was prevalent in the Central Ganga Plain and the Eastern Vindhyas from the early second millennium BCE. The dates obtained so far group into three: three dates between c. 1200-900 cal BCE, three between c. 1400-1200 cal BCE, and five between c. 1800-1500 cal BCE. The types and shapes of the associated pottery are comparable to those to be generally considered as the characteristics of the Chalcolithic Period and placed in early to late second millennium BCE. Taking all this evidence together it may be concluded that knowledge of iron smelting and manufacturing of iron artefacts was well known in the Eastern Vindhyas and iron had been in use in the Central Ganga Plain, at least from the early second millennium BCE. The quantity and types of iron artefacts, and the level of technical advancement indicate that the introduction of iron working took place even earlier. The beginning of the use of iron has been traditionally associated with the eastward migration of the later Vedic people, who are also considered as an agency which revolutionised material culture particularly in eastern Uttar Pradesh and Bihar (Sharma 1983: 117-131). The new finds and their dates suggest that a fresh review is needed. Further, the evidence corroborates the early use of iron in other areas of the country, and attests that India was indeed an independent centre for the development of the working of iron.


***

Set of iron age is considered very crucial as everything high-tech is attributed to set of iron age. Worst is that archaeologists of reputed universities and institutes do not update themselves and keep telling students that iron was first used in India in 600-700 BCE.

Off late, interacting with archaeologists. They still date rigveda to the max mullerian date of 1500 BCE and discuss about vedic and post vedic india which is hilarious. It is also a part of seal-a-bus (of lies). Those archaeologists who hold the view that everything to India came from West Asia or sometimes South east Asia are called "Diffusionists" and are ashamed of asserting their Indianness. Though many with whom I have interacted are quoting anthropological studies that concept of Aryan and Dravidian as races is pure BS. Anthropological studies have already discarded Aryan and Dravidians as any kind of racial thing.

Even after telling them that there are now ample evidences that Saraswati dried gradually by 1900 BCE and references in Veda are there about saraswati flowing to the ocean automatically predates max mullerian dates, they still wonder and deny. Cognitive Dissonance.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 09 Sep 2014 20:13

chand.bhardwaj wrote:The few points that I can rely on are largely external. things like Heroclitus, a point that Heracles replicating Krishna is a copyright violation by megasthenes and the point that he himself seems to provide a 138 generation route to Krishna contradicts other claims. Greeks may be the original plagiarists of all time is my line of argument.

But more difficult to grasp is the liberty everyone seems to have in dating events of such fundamental importance, flipping causality at will. My own ignorance of the sequence of dates is an obvious factor in effectively responding to such propaganda.

So, my question to all here is, is Vartak's dating of Mahabharata to be believed? I also use much of the work covered here on BRF such as on horses, and particularly drawing on Kazanas' work and on Sarawati's dating including Valdiya's rebuttal to Giosan. Still, what is the date one should be quoting MB and where does that lie on the OIT timescale?

Thanks in advance, happy Onam!
C.B

Most (not all) seem to be flippant....going more by their internally - ad hoc-determined date for a given historical instance, and then looking for support for such aprior determined date. Of course, if one already has a date/theory in mind, one will always find ample evidence to support it.. while conveniently ignoring evidence that contradicts it.

Have you read my 'When did the Mahabharata War happen?' or 'The Historic Rama'?

Determining timing of historical events is not a subject to be agreed upon by vote, but that is usually the case when everything is determined casually.

Of course, we will never know for sure, however, it is not difficult at all to determine a better claim, from a pool of multiple claims.

Happy Reading.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 09 Sep 2014 20:25

Murugan wrote:Origins of Iron Working in India


http://archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/iron-ore

What irritates me about this paper is the language of hesitation ans understatment
Recent excavations in Uttar Pradesh have turned up iron artefacts, furnaces, tuyeres and slag in layers radiocarbon dated between c. BCE 1800 and 1000. This raises again the question of whether iron working was brought in to India during supposed immigrations of the second millennium BCE, or developed independently.


the language that Indian scholars need to learn is to say:
Recent excavations in Uttar Pradesh have turned up iron artefacts, furnaces, tuyeres and slag in layers radiocarbon dated between c. BCE 1800 and 1000. This comprehensively trashes earlier theories of the Iron age starting in India after 1000 BC.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby member_26011 » 09 Sep 2014 20:26

^^ Great, many thanks. I'll go to it.


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