Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 28 Jun 2017 16:36

In the skirmish video, it appears that the IA personal outnumber PLA soldiers 2:1

So more Indians than the Chinese were expecting

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 28 Jun 2017 17:28

SSridhar wrote:Neela, I could not locate Doka La on the map.

Here, https://mapcarta.com/33607098

And on Google Map, https://www.google.co.in/maps/@27.30116 ... 150781,12z

Though it is not market on Google map, one can follow the zigzag of the border to identify the approx location on google map.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 28 Jun 2017 18:06

SSridhar wrote:Neela, I could not locate Doka La on the map. <SNIP>

This is the location of Doka La pass:

https://www.google.co.in/maps/place/27% ... 88.9138889

It is about 5 km south of India-Tibet-Bhutan tri-junction and on border between India and Bhutan. I think this is being used only as a reference point and is not the site of actual conflict.

Here is one data point from a Tribune journalist:

The Dynamics of the Sikkim Face-off

Indian troops have blocked a road under construction by China in a part of territory under dispute between Bhutan-China, ie in the Dongla area. The border with China is accepted by India along Sikkim, so there is no dispute here with China.

However, India has come to Bhutan's help as it is an India ally. Also, Bhutan is only nation to abstain from China's One Belt One Road along with India. So, Indian troops have undertaken patrols there at Bhutan's request and breached the border with China to enter and stop the road.

China is now testing India's resolve to militarily stand by Bhutan. Also, Bhutan's resolve in preferring India as the ally over accommodation to Chinese interests. At the crux is the Indo-Bhutan treaty of 2007.

Now, in light of above, see the Google Earth image here: https://twitter.com/rajfortyseven/statu ... 4092908544

Point marked as 'possible bunker destruction & jostling' is obviously incorrect. The person has taken the narrative about issue at tri-junction too seriously. But what is of relevance the alignment of road coming from Chumbi Valley (Tibet), entering Bhutan and again looping back to Chumbi Valley. You can make out these tracks/roads in the Google Map I've linked above with location of Doka La map as well.

What I think is happening here is this:

Chinese are pushing the road activity from Chumbi Valley across the ridge (the one marked in red in the tweet above) to bring themselves into/closer to Doka La pass. If you use the 3D function on GE, you'll see that terrain from the ridge where the road enters into Bhutan to Doka La pass is sort of a plateau. Chinese are pushing the envelope/encroaching territory on Bhutanese side to reach a dominating position WITHIN Bhutan and outflank Indian troops.

PLA presence in this area exposes IA's eastern flank in Sikkim opposite Nathan Valley-Gnathang-Kupup (these locations are visible on the Google Earth map).

Given the seriousness of this development, I'm not surprised India has reacted in such a strong manner. India is helping Bhutan to help itself.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 28 Jun 2017 18:24

No Full Time Defense Minister
It is unfortunate with current situation with China, Pakistan, and NE insurgency PM has not appointed a full time defense minister who is focused on security issues.The acting defense minister is probably busy with GST,which is going live next month.

Maybe a full time defense minister is not required and the armed forces run on auto poilet, or the defense ministry babus are running the show (screwed).

Things are beginning to look like 1962 (not the actual war and the results)
China building roads and India stoping them events spiraled out of control and the rest is history

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 28 Jun 2017 18:26

pankajs & rohitvats - Thanks guys. Exactly as I suspected.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 28 Jun 2017 18:28

Ok here is some more. Not exactly Doka la pass but Dokalam plateau. From 2014. The current standoff seems to be a result of the old Chinese gambit.

http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news ... grab-land/
In Bhutan too, Chinese grab land

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 28 Jun 2017 18:34

Can Bhutan be asked to join Indian Union.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 28 Jun 2017 18:37

Another map

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 28 Jun 2017 18:55

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... RBw6H.html
Exclusive: Bhutan ticks off Beijing, protests over border row that sparked India-China face-off in Sikkim

Talking to Hindustan Times, Major General (Retd) Vetsop Namgyel, ambassador of Bhutan to India, said: “The PLA (Peoples Liberation Army) started motorable road construction in the Doklam area towards Bhutanese Army camp at Zomphlri. We are in boundary resolution talks with China and have written agreements that pending final boundary settlement, peace and tranquillity be maintained along the boundary and both sides refrain from unilaterally altering the status on ground. Bhutan has conveyed to China that road construction is not keeping with the agreements between two countries. We have asked China to stop road constructions and refrain from changing the status quo. Doklam area is near the tri-junction is part of the boundary talks between Bhutan and China.”

Diplomatic sources told Hindustan Times that the PLA activity had increased in the tri-junction area near the Chumbi Valley area, which is also at the core of Indian defence interests. On June 8, the PLA dismantled Indian temporary outposts in the Doka La area.

<snip>

China has territorial claims on that area with the matter still not resolved despite 24 rounds of boundary-dispute negotiations. Given the proximity of Chumbi Valley, the Indian Army coordinated with Bhutanese Army against the PLA road-construction activity as it was deemed as unilaterally altering the status quo on ground.

The face-off between the India Army in support of Bhutan Army and PLA continues.

Ashokk · Post by **Ashokk** » 28 Jun 2017 19:00

Indian bunker in Sikkim removed by China: Sources

NEW DELHI: China has removed an old bunker of the Indian Army located at the tri-junction of India, China and Bhutan in Sikkim by using a bulldozer after the Indian side refused to accede to its request, according to official sources.

The incident that broke out in the first week of June in Doka La general area in Sikkim had led to a face-off between the two forces, triggering tension in the Sikkim section of the India-China border, the sources said on Wednesday.

The forcible removal of the old bunker by using heavy machinery like a bulldozer came when the Indian side did not agree to a request by the Chinese authorities to dismantle it, the sources said.

China is believed to have not taken kindly to India building many new bunkers and upgrading older ones along the border in Sikkim in the recent past to augment its defences against the People's Liberation Army (PLA), the sources said.

Of the 3,488-km-long India-China border from Jammu and Kashmir to Arunachal Pradesh, a 220-km section falls in Sikkim.

Beijing is also upset with New Delhi over the recent visit of the Dalai Lama to Arunachal Pradesh, the sources said, adding they were also trying to escalate tension in the forward areas, including in Sikkim, even though the border in the northeastern state is demarcated.

The Sikkim government has also sent a report to the central government giving details of the situation along the border following the stand-off in Doka La.

The first batch of Kailash Mansarovar pilgrims comprising about 50 people returned from Nathu La border post as the stand-off between India and China continues.

The pilgrims returned to Gangtok on June 23 after staying in Nathu La for three days awaiting permission from the Chinese side to undertake the onward journey.

The second batch of the pilgrims did not move from Gangtok while pilgrims were told to go home as the Kailash Mansarovar pilgrimage is unlikely to continue this year via Nathu La.

The Sikkim route to Mansarovar, which is in Tibet, was thrown open to public in 2015.

The visas for the third batch, comprising about 50 pilgrims, were not given yet. A total of 8-10 batches were supposed to go for the pilgrimage through Nathu La this year.

Union home secretary Rajiv Mehrishi said yesterday that 100 pilgrims were sent back by China despite they having a Chinese visa.

The sources said the Chinese side has mentioned a broken bridge as being the reason for the pilgrims not being able to cross into Tibet for the annual yatra.

Sikkim is a part of the middle sector and experts have been warning the government of increased Chinese activities in this area.

China today termed the construction of a road in the Sikkim sector as "legitimate", asserting that it was being built on Chinese territory that neither belongs to India nor Bhutan and no other country had the right to interfere.

China yesterday lodged a protest with India over the alleged "crossing of boundary" by its troops in the Sikkim sector and demanded their immediate withdrawal, as Beijing warned that future visits of Indian pilgrims to Kailash Mansarovar will depend on the resolution of the standoff.

The last such transgression had happened in Sikkim in November 2008 when Chinese soldiers destroyed some makeshift Indian Army bunkers there.

TKiran · Post by **TKiran** » 28 Jun 2017 19:12

There are athiradha, maharathis in this forum, but if you don't mind "choti muh badi baat", we should never bring in Bhutan name in this confrontation, as Bhutan is the protectorate of India as Tibet is the protectorate of China.

Has anyone seen the Chinese utter a word of Tibet? For them Tibet is China. Likewise, Bhutan is India for all practical purposes. That is the difference between China and India. The Chinese are unapolegetic about their encroachment into Tibet and suppressing Tibet's sovereignty, and giving a lecture about sovereignty of Bhutan. They all think uniformly that Tibet is China (you may call it strategic thinking).

In fact as a protector of Bhutan (whose sovereignty has always been respected) India is morally upright. So I have an objection if any body brings Bhutan into this stand-off. It's strictly a stand-off between PLA and IA

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 28 Jun 2017 19:18

pankajs wrote:http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... RBw6H.html
Exclusive: Bhutan ticks off Beijing, protests over border row that sparked India-China face-off in Sikkim

Everything has fallen into place now. As we suspected.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 28 Jun 2017 20:32

‘Beijing trying to assert itself’ - Vijaita Singh, The Hindu

The recent stand-off of the Indian Army with the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA) at Doko La on China-Sikkim-Bhutan tri-junction is being seen as an attempt by China to “assert” itself in areas which were not prone to transgressions or disputes, a senior government official said on Tuesday.

The official said there has been a spike in Chinese transgressions after the visit of the Dalai Lama to Arunachal Pradesh earlier this year and the numbers are expected to go up. India’s cold shoulder to the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor is also being seen as one of the reasons behind the increased transgressions.

In the past 45 days, around 120 Chinese transgressions were reported mainly from Ladakh and Arunachal Pradesh. Last year, around 250 such transgressions were reported.

Not surprising

An official said they were not surprised by China’s move to foment trouble in settled boundaries like Sikkim and Uttarakhand. “How much time does it take for China to change its strategy by shifting focus from Ladakh/Arunachal Pradesh to Sikkim and Uttarakhand. It is being done to stall development work in border areas,” a senior government official said.

On Tuesday, Minister of State for Home Kiren Rijiju met a senior official from military operations and Indo-Tibetan Border Police (ITBP) DG Krishna Chowdhury to discuss the construction work along the border areas. Officials have decided to give a measured response on the current stand-off with the Chinese as PM Narendra Modi is on a three-nation tour.

The tri-junction is primarily guarded by the Army and the ITBP forms the second layer of security.

“Sikkim and Uttarakhand have remained more or less oblivious to any skirmish as the border, which is yet to be demarcated officially, is considered to be a settled one between the two countries. Recently, we stepped up construction of roads and other infrastructure project, which could have upset them,” the official said.

Akshay D · Post by **Akshay D** » 28 Jun 2017 20:41

rohitvats wrote:
SSridhar wrote:Neela, I could not locate Doka La on the map. <SNIP>
This is the location of Doka La pass:

https://www.google.co.in/maps/place/27% ... 88.9138889

Rohit,

Bing has a much better sat image of the area, bright and without snow. It's interesting because the marker that you have mentioned in your post is clearly "inside" china (and not bhutan) on the bing sat image. Also, there is already an existing road all the way to the pass.

Straight white lines are the int. borders.

Indian post to the left, Chinese road head to the right. Most chinese roads end at the border with a circle - must help the vehicles to turn back.

The road actually enters the plateau that you mentioned from two spots across the ridgeline (marked in blue). That's the ridgeline that has been marked as the border in google maps. In bing, the entire plateau is inside china.

I am wondering if the incident is really happening in this exact area. The Chinese road to the pass already exists. here's a link the area on bing maps.
https://binged.it/2tl5sEf

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 28 Jun 2017 20:44

Doklam area already has a road from Tibet leading into it - it is not a natural path, rather a pretty deliberate bridge has been built across the river which should mark the boundary and crosses into Bhutan territory. Bhutanese have been asleep for a while, I would guess. Maybe MEA/RM woke them up from their slumber.

BTW Bhutan as a sovereign country at least naam-ke-vaaste is a good thing for us because it gives us a partner against China. No purpose will be served by annexing Bhutan, unless the Chinese make bigger advances at which point we will have to repeat Sikkim 1975 and subsume Bhutan. That won't be as painless since the Bhutanese have been heavily subsidized in the past and believe they are God's gift to the world (happiness index, $200/day minimum spend for tourists...) so they are going to be pretty pissed at being yet another state in the Indian union. But China may leave them no choice.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Jun 2017 21:26

pankajs wrote:Ok here is some more. Not exactly Doka la pass but Dokalam plateau. From 2014. The current standoff seems to be a result of the old Chinese gambit.

http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news ... grab-land/
In Bhutan too, Chinese grab land

If it is the Doklam plateau the Chinese have already built roads there - visible on GE

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 28 Jun 2017 22:01

Any threat to Chicken's Neck will make us start considering BCIM corridor very seriously to have access to North-East through Bangladesh; and that will only benefit OBOR/Eleven. This could very well be a ploy by Chinese to get us into OBOR via BCIM.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 28 Jun 2017 22:19

There is serious long term threat to Bhutan's terrirtorial integrity and cultural continuity. India can enact a law similar to article 370 of the constitution for Bhutan in exchange for Bhutan acceeding to India. That will ensure that the unique Buddist culture and tradition followed in Bhutan continues uninterrupted, risk of china occupying Bhutan as a colony is eliminated. Its a win-win.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 28 Jun 2017 22:20

yensoy wrote:Any threat to Chicken's Neck will make us start considering BCIM corridor very seriously to have access to North-East through Bangladesh; and that will only benefit OBOR/Eleven. This could very well be a ploy by Chinese to get us into OBOR via BCIM.

We are committed to BCIM corridor regardless. In fact it works perfectly for us as some sections of Bangladesh are against their country used for road transit by India, but are OK if it is part of an international corridor.

shravanp · Post by **shravanp** » 28 Jun 2017 22:22

schinnas wrote:There is serious long term threat to Bhutan's terrirtorial integrity and cultural continuity. India can enact a law similar to article 370 of the constitution for Bhutan in exchange for Bhutan acceeding to India. That will ensure that the unique Buddist culture and tradition followed in Bhutan continues uninterrupted, risk of china occupying Bhutan as a colony is eliminated. Its a win-win.

+1

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 28 Jun 2017 23:15

We should not let China repeat another Tibet with Bhutan. But it can be only done if and when Bhutan asks India for help as an independent nation. There is no point of helping someone who does not feel - it requires our help e.g. during Nepal earthquake.

Of course, China will be breathing directly on our neck if we don't response with/out Bhutan's explicit request. But Bhutan will loss everything including freedom, culture, nation, their identity. Clear winner will be China. Bhutan should prepare its mind before its too late. There will be only limited window when we can help them and ourselves.

Lets not talk of Bhutan's merger within India at all. Especially with stupid articles like 370, it seems we have not learned anything from our own history.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 29 Jun 2017 07:53

Road construction part of China’s plan to gain strategic advantage, say experts - Indrani Bagchi, ToI

China's aggressive road building exercise into Chumbi valley in the strategically located tri-junction between India, Bhutan and China, the source of the current stand-off between the two neighbours, is part of Beijing's plans to gain strategic advantage in the region, say experts.

India stopped China's road building, which was followed by Chinese troops destroying Indian bunkers and stopping pilgrims from travelling to Kailash Mansarovar through the Nathu La route.

Ashok Kantha, former envoy to China said, "While both sides broadly agree on the alignment of the boundary in the Sikkim Sector, there are differences on the tri-junction point, which involves India, Bhutan and China. There are also differences between India and China on interpretation of the watershed boundary in this sector. What is a matter of concern is that instead of dealing with the situation that has arisen as in Chumar and Demchok in 2014 or Depsang in 2013, China is expanding the differences by suspending the Kailash Mansarovar Yatra through Nathu La, which has a wider resonance at the popular level in India. This is an unfortunate escalation by China."

China has been taking advantage of Bhutan's inability to counter them by repeatedly making incursions and widening Chumbi Valley, which is a concern to India. Bhutan looks to India to be its security guarantor. India is currently in a strategically advantageous position in the Chumbi Valley, but the Chinese want to change that on the ground, hence the repeated jostling. But this is the first time, the Chinese government has taken diplomatic counter measures.

"India should not allow Chinese roads to be built to Chumbi valley. This is part of China's expansionist designs which would compromise Bhutanese and Indian security," said an expert who didn't wish to be identified.

It was over a decade ago that the then Bhutanese King refused to accede to Chinese pressure to give up a key ridge in the area to Chinese control. That was done with Indian help as both countries realised the danger of allowing China to build roads in this area.

Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Lu Kang said on Wednesday, "India wants to raise an issue with this part. I should say it doesn't belong to Bhutan, nor does it belong to India. So we have complete legal basis for this. Chinese construction of the road project is legitimate and normal action on its territory. No other country has the right to interfere."

Mohan Malik, China expert at the Asia-pacific Centre for Security Studies pointed out the essential discrepancy in the Chinese position since Beijing refuses to accept the 1914 agreement on the McMahon line on the grounds that it was done with an imperial power. Bhutan is a universally recognised sovereign country. "Hope countries can respect the sovereignty of the country. The China-Bhutan boundary is not delineated, no third party should interfere in this matter and make irresponsible remarks or actions," he said.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 29 Jun 2017 08:06

China’s road to Sikkim flashpoint with India - Rajat Pandit, ToI

The Indian defence establishment is opposed to China's attempts to construct a road on the Doklam plateau leading right up to the Sikkim-Bhutan-Tibet tri-junction, which has emerged as the major flashpoint in the ongoing face-off between the two armies in the remote border region.

The Doklam plateau is Bhutanese territory but China, which calls it Donglang, regularly sends People's Liberation Army patrols to the area to lay claim to it. Beijing is desperate to incorporate the plateau in its adjoining Chumbi Valley, which is shaped like a dagger jutting into India, separating Sikkim from Bhutan, in southern Tibet for geo-strategic reasons.

The Indian establishment is obviously worried. For one, India will lose its "strategic advantage" in the region if the road is constructed.

"Though our troops don't hold the plateau, the watershed they hold dominates it. The Dhok La, in which we are present, opens into the Chumbi Valley," said a source.

Moreover, China can militarily threaten the strategically-vulnerable and narrow Siliguri Corridor just about 50-km away in West Bengal — the so-called "Chicken's Neck" that connects the rest of India with the north-east states — if China manages to extend the road up to the tri-junction.

"China already has a couple of roads coming up to a certain point in the Chumbi Valley. If one of them is extended till the trijunction, through what we consider is Bhutanese territory, it will help the PLA in military logistics and maneuverability, like rapidly moving artillery and other equipment, in the case of a conflict with India," said the source.

The ongoing troop confrontation, with some initial jostling and a scuffle, began early this month when Chinese troops brought in heavy earth-moving and road-construction equipment as well as manual labour to the area.

When Indian troops strongly objected to the move, the PLA soldiers destroyed two Indian bunkers in retaliation near the Lalten post and then shut down/closed the Nathu La Pass for the batch of pilgrims headed for the Kailash Mansarovar Yatra from there.

As reported by TOI earlier, the continuing stand-off has seen the two sides reinforce their positions with around 1,000 troops each. Senior Indian Army officers, including the general officer commanding of the 17 Division, are also camping in the region, with Army headquarters keeping a close watch on the "tense but under control situation".

Army chief Gen Bipin Rawat is himself slated to visit Sikkim on Thursday for a first-hand review of the ground situation. Coincidentally enough, the same region had seen intensive firing between the two armies in September 1967 before a ceasefire was declared. Since then, the 4,057-km long of Line of Actual Control stretching from Ladakh to Arunachal Pradesh has seen virtually no firing or violence between the rival troops despite regular "transgressions" and troop face-offs. Ironically, unlike the contentious borders at Ladakh and Arunachal Pradesh, the 220-km border between Sikkim and China is considered to be largely settled.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 29 Jun 2017 09:37

Mohan malik:

Hope countries can respect the sovereignty of the country. The China-Bhutan boundary is not delineated, no third party should interfere in this matter and make irresponsible remarks or actions," he said.

What is with this guy, Doesnt he know the relationship between India and Bhutan or just playing to the gallery of his US/chinese masters

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 29 Jun 2017 10:07

Akshay D wrote: I am wondering if the incident is really happening in this exact area. The Chinese road to the pass already exists. here's a link the area on bing maps. https://binged.it/2tl5sEf

Thank you for your effort and the link(s). There seem to be multiple events at play. One in Dokalam Plateau in western Bhutan and other in the Tri-junction area. As for the boundary alignment, need to clarify on that by referencing from other sources. Working on that. But it is quite possible that area does belong to Bhutan but Chinese have control over it - though it does not show as disputed anywhere. Another thing which lends credence to your point/Bing Map alignment of the plateau being within Tibet/Chumbi Valley area is that there is no Bhutan Royal Army presence for miles (at least I could not see any trail from Bhutan to this area). Its IA and PLA. I hope to dig a bit more and will revert with what I find.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 29 Jun 2017 18:59

Indian Army should learn from 'historical lessons': China - PTI

China on Thursday asked India to withdraw its troops from the Donglong area in Sikkim sector as a precondition for a "meaningful dialogue" to settle the boundary issue, warning that the Indian Army should learn "historical lessons", in an oblique reference to the 1962 war.

In an unprecedented action, Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Lu Kang displayed a photograph of Indian "incursion" into Donglong area and said the dispute which is becoming a confrontation of sorts between the troops on the ground can only be settled by the withdrawal of Indian soldiers from the area.

"Since the illegal trespass happened we have lodged solemn representations with the Indian side in both New Delhi and Beijing," Lu said, showing the photograph from the podium.

He said the photographs will be displayed on the Foreign Ministry's website later.

"The diplomatic channel for communication remains unimpeded. We urged the Indian side to withdraw troops back to the Indian side of the boundary immediately. This is the precondition for the settlement of this incident and also the basis for us to conduct any meaningful dialogue," he said.

Addressing the media around the same time, China's Defence spokesman Col Wu Qian rejected Bhutan's allegation that PLA soldiers violated its territory in Donglong area, saying its troops operated on "Chinese territory" and also asked India to "correct" its "wrong doing".

"I have to correct when you say Chinese personnel entered Bhutan's territory. Chinese troops operated on Chinese territory," a Chinese defence ministry spokesman told media here.

The People's Liberation Army spokesman also accused Indian troops of entering the Chinese side in Donglong area in Sikkim sector.

"They tried to stop the normal activities. The Chinese carried out appropriate responses to these activities to safeguard sovereignty and territorial integrity," the spokesman said.

"We have made it clear to the Indian side to correct their wrong doing and withdraw all personnel from Chinese territory," he said.

Bhutan yesterday said it had issued a demarche to China over the construction of a road towards its Army camp in Zomplri area of Doklam and asked Beijing to restore status quo by stopping the work immediately.

The Donglong (Doklam) is a tri-junction area near the Chumbi Valley. It is under China's control. However, Bhutan claims sovereignty over the area.

Asked about the protest lodged by Bhutan that the PLA has transgressed its territory in Donglong area as well as reports that Chinese military has destroyed bunkers of Indian army in the area, Col Wu said the PLA troops carried out "appropriate response to incursion" by Indian border guards into Chinese territory.

"The Indian border troupe personnel have entered the Chinese territory in the Sikkim sector of the India-China borders. They tried to stop the normal activities of the Chinese border defence forces in the Donglong region. We carried out appropriate responses to halt these actives to safeguard our national sovereignty and territorial integrity," he said.

The Chinese military rejected as "extremely irresponsible" Army chief General Bipin Rawat's remarks that India is ready for a two-and-a-half front war, asking him to "stop clamouring for war".

Rawat had said that India is prepared for security threats posed by China, Pakistan as well as by internal threats.

Responding to Rawat's remarks, Col Wu Qian said: "Such rhetoric is extremely irresponsible".

"We hope that the particular person in the Indian Army could learn from historical lessons and stop such clamouring for war," he told the media.

"Indian Army is fully ready for a two and a half front war," Rawat had said recently.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 29 Jun 2017 19:01

The Indian MEA must conduct a press meet and put forth its points of view. China should be tackled on all fronts like its cat's paw, Pakistan.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 29 Jun 2017 19:06

rohitvats wrote: . . . There seem to be multiple events at play. One in Dokalam Plateau in western Bhutan and other in the Tri-junction area.

True. There are two incidents. One at Dokla where IA (& possibly Bhutanese Army together) stopped Chinese activities. This is an area jutting into Chumbi valley from Bhutan and therefore not Indian territory technically; but, India does have responsibility for the security of Bhutan. In anger, PLA did two things elsewhere at Nathu La - brought down some IA bunkers with heavy machinery & stopped the Kailash pilgrims. Now, Doka La plateau is disputed between Bhutan & China only because China's imagination and historical nonsense makes it believe that the whole of Asia was under the Chinese Empire for 2500 years. The plateau is a traditional pastoral land of Bhutan.

This seems to be the sequence of events.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 Jun 2017 20:15

Yes as said elsewhere,we've learnt lessons from history,how an arrogant "teacher" China invaded Vietnam and was rogered in style,showing the world a new version of "beating the retreat" PLA style!

TKiran · Post by **TKiran** » 29 Jun 2017 20:51

https://mobile.twitter.com/Chellaney/st ... 4677629952

@chellaney

China's trade surplus with India is so large it can finance one CPEC every year & still have some billions to spare:

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 29 Jun 2017 21:25

Sure, but given Chinese throw away prices, India is also saving an equal amount by not buying elsewhere.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 29 Jun 2017 22:18

http://www.firstpost.com/india/sikkim-s ... 58437.html

There is a possibility that India's strengthening of ties with the US have come at the cost of a deterioration of its relationship with China but, and this is the second point, there is no reason for India to lose sleep over it, or fear unnecessarily a military conflict because China is essentially a mercantile power.

A mercantile power would be loathe to let ties dip beyond a point, where it starts affecting trade and commerce. Here, by virtue of its trade imbalance with China, India holds a strategic advantage. Besides, both nations are nuclear powers and the ground situation isn't what it was in 1962.

Therefore, there is absolutely no reason for India to back off from confronting China. However, it must handle the dispute with utmost care and sensitivity.

I believe a case can be made that China by subsidising its goods with social capital (trade mark sanjaykumar), and is accelerating India's economic growth. The chief reason is not the shoddy electrical goods or plastic toys but that India gets to spend billions on capital intensive projects, infrastructure and military investments. China is enabling India to purchase weapons that are causing them such hysteria.

Peregrine · Post by **Peregrine** » 30 Jun 2017 01:06

Fully Posted on China Watch Thread

China 'highly alarmed' after reports of Australian spying

BEIJING: China said Thursday it was "highly alarmed" over threats to its national security, after a state-run newspaper accused Australia of spying on the country and stealing its technology.

Cheers

brvarsh · Post by **brvarsh** » 30 Jun 2017 02:51

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 377708.cms - China warns India to learn from the past. Yes we have learned it from the past, why do you think we are patrolling and aggressively manning our borders now? Because we have learned our lesson.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 30 Jun 2017 07:53

Army, PLA in a tug of war over Doklam Plateau - Josy Joseph, The Hindu

The Doklam Plateau, north of the tri-junction between Sikkim, Bhutan and Tibet by Indian claim, is not just a disputed area, but has huge strategic significance for both India and China.

The few square kilometres of the plateau, which one officer familiar with the terrain calls “more a ledge than anything else” because of its steep mountains, is witnessing a tense stand-off between detachments of the Indian Army and the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) for the past few days. There have been several incidents that have culminated in the present situation, according to sources.

Bunkers destroyed

In recent days, the Chinese are believed to have destroyed temporary bunkers of the Indian Army, while the Indian Army is accused of objecting to a road construction by the Chinese side on the disputed area. Finally, there was also an incident of jostling among the soldiers of the two sides.

Wedged between Bhutan, India and China are few areas of dispute — together accounting for just over 750 square kilometres. Among the disputed areas is Doklam (also called Donglang in China) , which is just about 90 square kilometres where the present dispute is taking pace.

For Chinese to reach the China-Bhutan border posts, Doklam provides an easy way to construct their road, and they have been trying to do so and India has consistently objected to it. Not very far from Doklam is the strategically important Chumbi Valley in the Tibetan region, to which Chinese are now planning to expand their rail connectivity.

Bigger buffer

The disputed area also provides, according to India perspective, a bigger buffer to its sensitive Chicken’s Neck, or the Siliguri Corridor, which is an extremely narrow stretch of land that connects the north-eastern region to the rest of India. From the Chumbi Valley it is just a little over 100 kilometres away.

“Maybe 20 years down the line, once we develop our border infrastructure at par with the Chinese, we can be more welcoming of better connectivity and be relaxed about the dispute. Not for now,” an ex-army officer with extensive knowledge of the India-China dispute said.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 30 Jun 2017 08:02

India cautious as China sticks to its charge - Kallol Bhattacherjee, The Hindu

Displaying caution, India on Thursday declined to respond to China’s accusation that Indian troops had crossed the India-China border in the Sikkim region. A Ministry of External Affairs spokesperson said the questions on China’s moves were important that demand time to deal with and refused to speak in detail for the time being.

“The issues that you are raising are important and I need time to do justice to them,” said spokesperson Gopal Baglay responding to the China-related issues raised by media persons at a news conference at the MEA.

Mr. Baglay said that due to an urgent appointment, he would have to leave without answering China-related questions. But he, however, indicated that a detailed briefing on China’s latest comments would be held soon.

The news conference was the first that the MEA held since Beijing began to issue a series of harsh statements regarding India since last weekend blaming Indian border troops of “illegally crossing into the Chinese territory.”

This accusation came within two days of China denying permission to Indian pilgrims to use the Nathu La pass for the Kailash Mansarovar Yatra. The denial has stalled this season’s pilgrimage which was to consist of more than two dozen groups.

Despite the MEA’s reluctance to be drawn into a war of words, Beijing reiterated on Thursday that the Indian troops had crossed the China-India boundary at the Sikkim section and demanded withdrawal of the Indian troops from what it claimed was China’s territory.

“Truth may be concealed for a while, but not forever. We once again urge the Indian side to abide by the existing boundary convention, respect China’s territorial sovereignty, and immediately bring the border troops that have crossed into China back to the Indian side of the boundary, so as not to worsen the situation,” said a spokesperson of China’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 30 Jun 2017 08:11

Border face-off: China and India each deploy 3,000 troops

The ongoing troop face-off between India and China on the Sikkim-Bhutan-Tibet tri-junction has emerged as the biggest such confrontation in the region in decades, with both sides continuing to pump in reinforcements to the remote border region.

Even as Army chief General Bipin Rawat reviewed the ground situation by visiting the headquarters of the 17 Mountain Division in Gangtok and 27 Mountain Division in Kalimpong on Thursday, sources said the two rival armies had strengthened their positions at the tri-junction by deploying around 3,000 troops each in a virtually eyeball-to-eyeball confrontation.

The Indian Army, on its part, refused to say anything. But sources said though there had been other troop standoffs at the tri-junction over the years, the latest one at the Doka La general area was clearly the most serious.

"Both sides are as yet not willing to budge from their positions. Flag meetings and other talks between the rival commanders have not worked till now," a source said.

During his visit, General Rawat especially concentrated on the deployments of the 17 Division, which is responsible for the defence of eastern Sikkim with four brigades (each with over 3,000 soldiers) under its command.

"All top officers, including the 33 Corps and 17 Division commanders, were present during the extensive discussions. The chief will return to New Delhi on Friday morning," the source said.

Undeterred by Beijing's aggressive posturing, India has made it clear that it will not allow China to construct a motorable road till the tri-junction through the Bhutanese territory of Doklam plateau, as earlier reported by TOI.

Bhutan, too, has issued a demarche to China over the construction of the road towards its army camp at Zomplri in the Doklam plateau, asking Beijing to restore status quo by stopping work immediately.

"China is trying to build a 'Class-40 road' in the Doklam plateau that can take the weight of military vehicles weighing up to 40 tonnes, which include light battle tanks, artillery guns and the like," the source said.

Interestingly, the People's Liberation Army declared in Beijing on Thursday that it had conducted trials of a new 35-tonne tank in the plains of Tibet, though it added that "it was not targeted against any country". The Indian defence establishment is concerned at the "creeping territorial aggression" by China, which aims to progressively swallow the 269 sq km Doklam plateau to add "strategic width" to its adjoining but narrow Chumbi Valley, which juts in between Sikkim and Bhutan.

China has also been pushing Bhutan hard for the last two decades to go in for a "package deal".

Under it, Beijing wants Thimphu to cede control over Doklam plateau, while it surrenders claims to the 495 sq km of territory in Jakurlung and Pasamlung valleys in northern Bhutan.

But India is militarily "very sensitive" about the Doklam plateau, especially the Zomplri Ridge area because it overlooks the strategically-vulnerable Siliguri corridor or the 'Chicken's Neck' area.

India has progressively strengthened its defences in the Siliguri corridor, the narrow strip of land that connects the rest of India with its north-eastern states, to stem any Chinese ingress. "But it remains a geographical vulnerability. China has constructed several feeder roads from Tibet to the border with Bhutan, and is also trying to extend its railway line in the region," the source said.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 30 Jun 2017 11:34

^^^As suspected, IA has helped Bhutan to prevent Chinese widening the envelope/territory creep in Dokalam Plateau. And Chinese are retaliating in tri-junction area against IA.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Jun 2017 12:32

in my assessment the TSP army+sf is overall a more rounded and experienced force than PLA. the most realistic battle exp of the PLA in tibet has been beating up monks, bringing down monasteries and punishing muslims in urumqi. relatively large and formidable armies in history have been taken apart by more experienced formations even if smaller in absolute numbers. examples are too many to recount.

whatever we have learned from dealing with TSP over the years, we will "teach" their masters soon.
mark my words - it is coming - whether officially or not i dont know.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 30 Jun 2017 12:36

OK<we're buying cheap from China,but how does it help Indian small,micro and med scale industry which has been devastated by cheap Chinese goods? Do you want us to be perpetually dependent upon China like servile vassals? The same argument is being used in acquisition of defence ware.why the "make in India" policy has been spelt out.The GOI cannot be two-faced about this,.Whether it is weapon systems or civilian goods,"make in India" must be for both mil and civil needs.

A people's boycott of all Chinese goods needs to be launched asap.I am sure that the RSS and other parivar members will see the logic behind this.Why reward an enemy who is simply using the massive profits to build up his mil cap[ability and threaten India with it? The Chinese must be laughing all the
way to their banks! See what Trump is now doing,sanctions against Chinese banks,arms sales to Taiwan.Why can't we also be so bold? We bombastically on our TV channels lambaste Pak,but act like timid mice when it comes to China.There's no point claiming to be a great power if you can't act like one.2 decades ago a prophetic former foreign min. of a foreign country warned me about what China was planning and what would happen whent hey started using their muscle and money power.It's all come to pass.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... tions-bank

US-China honeymoon over: Washington sanctions Chinese bank and sells arms to Taiwan
Experts say relationship is cooling between presidents Donald Trump and Xi Jinping as US loses patience over North Korea and South China Sea
US president Donald Trump and Chinese president Xi Jinping at Mar-a-Lago.

Tom Phillips in Hong Kong and Oliver Holmes in Bangkok
Friday 30 June 2017 05.33 BST Last modified on Friday 30 June 2017 05.48 BST
Relations between the world’s two largest economies look to be entering a new phase of turbulence after the US punctured Chinese celebrations of the anniversary of Hong Kong’s return by unveiling sanctions against a Chinese bank linked to North Korea and a major arms sale to Taiwan .

The US state department on Thursday gave the green light to a total of $1.4bn in arms sales to Taiwan, a self-governing island which China considers its own territory.

Sanctions were also announced targeting a Chinese bank accused of serving as “a conduit for illicit North Korean financial activity”.

Two Chinese individuals and the Bank of Dandong, which US Treasury secretary Steve Mnuchin said was an institution of “primary money-laundering concern”, were blacklisted from the US financial system.

“This bank has served as a gateway for North Korea to access the US and international financial systems, facilitating millions of dollars of transactions for companies involved in North Korea’s nuclear and ballistic missile programs,” Mnuchin told reporters. “The United States will not stand for such action.”

Mnuchin claimed the move was not retribution for a lack of Chinese action over North Korea. “This is not directed at China, this is directed at a bank, as well as individuals and entities in China,” he said.

However, both the sanctions and the arms sale are likely to anger China and experts said both moves clearly represented a deliberate response from a Trump White House that is losing patience with Beijing.

The US also chose the first day of Xi’s visit to call for more democracy in Hong Kong saying China should respect civil liberties, including press freedom.

The timing of the US actions – just ahead of the 20th anniversary of Hong Kong’s return to Beijing on 1 July – was particularly provocative, experts in US-China relations said.

Bill Bishop, a Washington-based China specialist who publishes the influential Sinocism newsletter, said the decision to announce the arms sale and sanctions as president Xi Jinping arrived in Hong Kong to lead celebrations there was a calculated snub: “It is very symbolic and it is basically raining on Xi’s parade in Hong Kong.”

Following a two-day summit between Xi and US president Donald Trump at the latter’s Mar-a-Lago estate in April, ties between the US and China appeared to have warmed.

Trump, who had once accused China of being a top US enemy, hailed Xi as “a great guy” with whom he had enjoyed “chemistry”. The US president even backed away from claims that China was a currency manipulator.

However, Bishop said Trump’s administration appeared to have lost patience with China’s reluctance to make concessions on issues including trade and North Korea. “The honeymoon is over and the fact is it was a pretty crappy honeymoon : I think they slept in different beds,” Bishop said.

Washington has also become increasingly frustrated with Beijing’s continued militarisation of islands it claims in the South China Sea, a vital route for half of all global commercial shipping.

Speaking in Sydney this month, US secretary of defence James Mattis said China’s construction of bases on islands were marked by a “disregard for international law … [and] its contempt for other nations’ interests”, remarks that Beijing later condemned as “irresponsible”.

A place called 'hope': the tiny island on the frontline of US-China tensions

A US-based thinktank released new satellite imagery on Thursday showing freshly-built missile shelters, radar and communications facilities on three of the island reefs controlled by China.

The Asia Maritime Transparency Initiative (AMTI), part of Washington’s center for strategic and international studies, said images of Fiery Cross, Mischief and Subi reefs in the Spratly Islands also show housing for long-range surface-to-air missiles. Photos showed construction of underground structures, “likely candidates to house munitions”, AMTI said.

Last month, a US navy warship sailed within 12 nautical miles of Mischief reef in a contentious so-called freedom of navigation operation, the first such challenge since Trump took power.

“Beijing can now deploy military assets, including combat aircraft and mobile missile launchers, to the Spratly Islands at any time,” AMTI said.

The thinktank said new images showed a very large antennae array has been installed on Mischief reef that may boosts Beijing’s ability to monitor the surrounding waters.

“We are definitely into a new phase of US-China relations … now we are really, I think, entering into a much tougher phase. There is going to be a lot more friction in the relationship,” said Bishop.

“It’s already hot in DC and it is probably going to get a lot hotter.”

In the light of Trump's new direction in US-China relations,acts which will only anger China,the Indo-US maritime relationship will inevitably enter a new more networked phase.Chinese aggro in the Himalayas and India's tough response must be seen in conjunction to China's island grab in the Indo-China Sea.What its doing at sea in the ICS it is attempting to do in Indo-Tibet.