India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

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jaysimha
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby jaysimha » 01 Feb 2019 12:04

DRDO Sponsored National Seminar on
“Advances in Materials Research for Armaments Applications” – AMRA
15.02.2019 & 16.02.2019 Pollachi, coimbatore
http://mcet.in/?news=drdo-sponsored-nat ... ar-on-amra
http://mcet.in/wp-content/uploads/SH/MCET_Phy_DRDO%20Seminar%20Brochure%20(%20S&H).pdf

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Rakesh » 03 Feb 2019 22:29

If someone can read through this article and confirm what Bharat Karnad has written, it would be appreciated.

This is Bharat Karnad after all.

HAL and IAF — made for each other
https://bharatkarnad.com/2019/01/26/hal ... ach-other/

On Republic Day, there’s no more serious matter to ponder than the negative synergy generated by the Combine of the military and DRDO-DPSU that’s pile-driving India into subservience, emphasizing its dependency on foreign armaments and strengthening its subordinate state status in the world. The political leaders across the ideological spectrum wax rhetorical about arms self-sufficiency being round the corner but neither have the interest nor intellect, leave alone any understanding of issues pertaining to national security, to implement anything remotely sensible and are quite happy to be led by their noses by military chiefs offering skewed “professional advice” and generalist bureaucrats with vested interest in the status quo. Hence, the god-awful system of defence production geared to military procurement from abroad flourishes.

Exactly around this time last year, Air Marshal Harish Masand (Retd) wrote Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman offering her some information about how Hindustan Aerospace Ltd. actually works and why this premier Defence Public Sector Unit (DPSU), one of MoD Department of Defence Production’s ‘navratnas’, is in so sad a state and in such disrepair that the Modi government has been forced to blame HAL’s weaknesses — its inability to even screwdriver various aircraft together from imported kits very efficiently, something it has done for most of the last 60-odd years, its low labour productivity, and dismal quality control — to justify buying 36 French Rafale combat aircraft off the Dassault Avions shelf.

Air Marshal Masand, for those who may not be aware, is a VrC and, until his retirement, was simply the best fighter pilot in the Indian Air Force, his aircraft of choice — the MiG-29, which he rates as the best fighter plane, ton for fighting ton. Indeed, in display flying, he repeatedly and abrasively showed up the French Mirage 2000 that his Service was sold on. In the process, he gained the ire of his seniors and compatriots, ensuring that despite the requisite seniority and a spectacularly good record in service that would have put him in the running for the Chief of Air Staff post, his career was sidelined.

In many respects, he is the Air Force analogue of the great General Hanut Singh in the army. Utter professionals and sticklers for doing the right thing, neither attained the heights their gallantry awards, seniority, honesty and proven competence should have guaranteed them. I recall CAS ACM SP Tyagi, who could have retrieved Masand’s career when he assumed office in late December 2004 but didn’t, telling me that Harish was “not a team man” — a phrase curiously used by Masand’s juniors who made it as AOCs-in-C. In the Indian military, it is necessary to fall in line with the pet peeves and projects of the Service and the Service Chief of the day and, most importantly, to be a team man or you are out. So, out went Hanut and Masand. But that’s par for the course. The best and the brightest in the armed forces rarely make it to 4-star rank. Comparing and contrasting them with the usual strategically dim-witted sort who do pretty much explains why the Indian armed forces find themselves in the sorry straits they are in now.

With military leadership lacking foresight, it is natural, because no real demands are made on them, for DPSUs-DRDO to also be short-sighted and show the same slack will and lassitude, and to be content with doing as little as possible for as much moolah as they can corner. Displaying minimal technological innovation, commercial sense and market logic, the DRDO-DPSU Complex moves hand-in-glove with the military to waste national resources on arms imports — the new means, incidentally, of transferring wealth from a poor country to rich countries, not unlike what India suffered during the hey day of colonialism.

The political leadership in the country is squarely to blame. No armed service’s Chief of Staff is ever dismissed for wrong advice to buy this, that, or the other that prolongs the country’s arms dependency and misery, and DRDO-DPSU heads are not hauled up for gross ineptitude of their organizations in ingesting technology, not developing advanced designs and products, and for failing to manage a labour force so unmotivated and with such bad work ethic as to be an economic liability. All this because there’s no accountability anywhere in the Indian government system.

It has made for an institutionalized business model built on wastefulness followed by the military-DPSU-DRDO Combine, and in the case of IAF, the HAL-DRDO Complex, that Masand described in his letter to Sitharaman and in a piece (“What ails HAL”) that he has just published in the Indian Defence Review (at http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news ... -ails-hal/ ) thus: “If HAL can buy something for $10, it would rather pay $100, and if DRDO can do a job in on year, it would rather take ten.” Masand can speak authoritatively on HAL’s functioning because, as Wing Commander in the early 1980s, he was in-charge of the MiG-21 bis upgrade programme, whose original cost of $850 million in 1994 was, owing to financial crunch, pruned by MoD to $626 million (Rs 2,000 crores). However, Masand’s strict oversight brought the programme in on time and without cost over-runs. The $224 million that was cut proved in excess of need for the MiG bis programme, but it hints at the kind of built-in margins for loot that the armed services personnel and MoD officils in the procurement loop, and DRDO, and DPSU share in. With the screwdriver tech capability-ceiling of HAL (and Mazgaon, etc.) translating into cost (of CKD/SKD kits) plus 2% profit, the government can claim profitability for DPSUs and keep them going. Masand’s letter to the minister expressing his willingness to provide her the inside dope on how and why DRDO and DPSUs, in which the nation has invested heavily, regularly produce miserable results, of course, went unheeded.

For effect and show, the military/IAF will complain incessantly about DRDO and DPSUs/HAL being the great villains, whose consistent failures over decades in delivering the promised products in time has lost them the trust of the armed Services/IAF and compelled them, or so they claim, to import just about every major item in sight, reinforcing India’s shameful standing as the largest buyer of arms and imperiling the country’s security. However, the profligacy and R&D and industrial shortcomings of DRDO-DPSUs serves the military fine because it means a perennial rationale for importing stuff.

On the rare occasion when indigenous weapons system design and development projects do get off the ground and into production stage after overcoming every obstacle erected in their path, such as the Tejas LCA and the Arjuna Main Battle Tank, the armed services delay their induction and mass production using any and every ruse they can think of. Thus, despite Arjuna MBT besting the Russian T-90 in every test category, in every weather condition, in all terrains, the army has been reluctant to buy it in large numbers on the ground that it is too heavy and cumbersome to transport easily. The obvious solution for this problem would have been for the government, MoD, and the army to agree by consensus that the home-grown design — the most important aspect of any weapons systems in terms of production — needed a small tweaking to reduce the weight and size.

Likewise in the case of the Tejas. Because the design is an NAL-DRDO product, the intelligence on the plane, its source codes, etc are all entirely with India. This design can be upscaled and modified to obtain the Advanced Medium Combat aircraft, the proposed follow-on aircraft to Tejas, or miniaturized to realize a weapons-bearing, long endurance, war-drone. India can do whatever it wants with it and will finally free the country and the IAF of the importitis disease. But no, that’s not what has happened. Far from writing finis to buying foreign combat aircraft, IAF is compounding its logistics and operational problems by going in for yet another type of aircraft to make up the balance 126 MMRCA, even as the indigenous AMCA project is shunted out of sight. The excuse being the depleting squadrons, which the IAF frequently makes public through a compliant media and which the political leadership of the day, in order not to appear änti-national”, ends up funding. Whether manned combat aircraft anymore has relevance in the coming age of remotely-controlled drone swarms is never considered.

So the Tejas has been held up with the IAF insisting that the LCA be delivered in battle-ready state with fully certification and all avionics, weapons, FCS, etc integrated and tested, which harsh conditions, incidentally, are NOT imposed on imported fighter planes! And in any case, such a deliberately elongated induction process is contrary to the practice of the far more advanced air forces who induct new aircraft into the fleet even as they are undergoing the various stages of certification for air worthiness, on-board weapons and avionics integration and testing, etc. This is the case, for instance, with the US Air Force which is flying the F-35 while going through the certification steps with the problems detected and corrected based on feedback from pilots. This has required design tinkering of the aircraft and of the on-board sub-systems by Lockeed, the aircraft supplier. In other words, improvements in the aircraft, whole and in parts, to make it fully operational proceed in parallel with the aircraft’s induction. System and sub-system rectifications and technical solutions are then retrofitted on to aircraft already in the fleet, as is happening with the F-35. It saves time and money even as it speeds up acceptance of the aircraft by the force’s fighter jock community.

Had this procedure been followed for the Tejas, its scaled-up production and induction, instead of being delayed for another 3-4 years, would have begun some five years back and the Tejas by now would have filled at least 2 squadrons even at HAL’s desultory annual production rate of some 8 aircraft. As things stand, IAF has still to sign a production contract and HAL, in turn, has still to activate its second production line, which would increase the rate to 18 Tejas per year. Given the paucity of fighter planes, why wouldn’t the government-MoD do the obvious thing and farm out the production of the Tejas to several private sector companies — L&T, Mahindra Aerospace, Tata Defence Systems, and even Reliance Defence, for surge production of the LCA as I have been advocating for many years? This will mandate NAL-DRDO transferring full technology to the private sector along with the source codes, operational algorithms, etc. This, of course, is being resisted because it will set up the private sector as a genuine and far more capable competitor to the DRDO-DPSU complex and possibly drive them out of the business or, as is equally likely, motivate HAL/DPSU -DRDO to become more efficient and effective, but who wants that?

HAL/DPSU-DRDO would rather have the present state of affairs continue in perpetuity with MoD facilitating custom for them with licensed production of imported goods. Periodic controversies, like the one attending on the purchase of 36 Rafales, is great and serves the purpose of keeping the situation in as-is condition forever. The IAF, in the event, couldn’t be happier. In this sense, the IAF and HAL and, in the larger context, the Indian military and DPSU-DRDO do, in fact, work well together!

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Prasad » 05 Feb 2019 20:31

csaurabh wrote:
Kakarat wrote:
I suggested this because I had once made a suggestion to the air force and after some time i got a mail from a air force ID if I was happy with the response if not asking me to reply to the mail. Hope yours also gets good response and keep checking through the link you get through mail


My grievance request for IDEX was closed with the following reasons: With regards to application submission, no specific acknowledgement is sent out to the applicants. If after pressing the submit button, application code is generated and is displayed to the applicant, it means that the application has been submitted.

Also in the FAQs on their website: The exact timelines for the result announcement will be announced by the Ministry after the close of the application period.

Babus being babus.. :evil:

saurabh,
did this go anywhere? I just saw this tweet from Ajaykumar https://twitter.com/drajaykumar_ias/sta ... 3463756802

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby sudeepj » 05 Feb 2019 22:07

I 'feel' that Karnads observations about HAL and higher leadership sounds about right. About DRDO, the DRDO engineers I have had the good fortune to work with have been sharp as a thumb-tack. They are much better than the avg. IT-Vity types. Perhaps program/project management, risk management needs to be an added stream for greater discipline and sticking to timelines. Other than that, I feel DRDO, ISRO, DAE/BARC are the only organizations that are doing any R&D that is worth the name.

One problem I can see is, we dont try anything new when it comes to projects. Why not give management of an HAL program to the Airforce to run by itself? Perhaps there will be greater cooperation and understanding of each others issues. Same for OFB.. I dont see any reason why one of the artillery programs 130mm upgunning/Sarang, Dhanush 45 Cal or ... can not be managed by the Army itself? Either it will succeed, or it will spectacularly fail. In both cases, we would have learnt something. Right now, we have been having the same debate for the past 20 years. There is literally nothing new in what Karnad is saying, and I am not trying to blame Karnad, just the situation at hand.


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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby csaurabh » 09 Feb 2019 10:17

Prasad wrote:
csaurabh wrote:
My grievance request for IDEX was closed with the following reasons: With regards to application submission, no specific acknowledgement is sent out to the applicants. If after pressing the submit button, application code is generated and is displayed to the applicant, it means that the application has been submitted.

Also in the FAQs on their website: The exact timelines for the result announcement will be announced by the Ministry after the close of the application period.

Babus being babus.. :evil:

saurabh,
did this go anywhere? I just saw this tweet from Ajaykumar https://twitter.com/drajaykumar_ias/sta ... 3463756802


I sure have not heard about it. Maybe ours was just not selected.
It's usually a courtesy to inform people even when they don't qualify but you can't expect such a thing from our babus.


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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby ashishvikas » 12 Feb 2019 16:54

India’s Lohia Group Enters Defense Sector, Acquires Israeli Aerostructures Manufacturer

The acquisition establishes Lohia Group as a key participant in the sector as it leverages Light & Strong’s existing client base, which includes the Israeli Ministry of Defence among others, to build its own presence. The Israeli facility is a well-established aerostructures manufacturer for platforms such as Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) and passenger and cargo aircraft. These customers will now be ably supported by Lohia Group with its facilities in Israel and India, the company stated.

According to the statement, with this acquisition, Lohia Group will establish India as an exporter of customized composite products to global OEMs and will aim at executing offset obligations of global companies.


http://www.defenseworld.net/news/24239/ ... GKp6mNS8fI

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby csaurabh » 13 Feb 2019 15:07

Just an update, our application to Defense India Startup challenge was approved by IDEX. It will now be taken to the next stage for PoC and presentation. Will update here regarding the progress.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby JayS » 13 Feb 2019 17:23

csaurabh wrote:Just an update, our application to Defense India Startup challenge was approved by IDEX. It will now be taken to the next stage for PoC and presentation. Will update here regarding the progress.

Congrats. Keep it up.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Mollick.R » 14 Feb 2019 16:50

Apologies for posting it late and if it is not appropriate thread for this news.

Padma Vibhushan for AM Naik who fought Ambani and Birla to lead L&T’s defence strides
SNEHESH ALEX PHILIP Updated: 26 January, 2019 4:21 pm IST


From indigenous nuclear submarine Arihant to K9 Vajra guns, L&T, under chairman Naik, who joined firm as junior engineer, is now betting big on defence........................

New Delhi: Anil Manibhai Naik, better known as A.M. Naik, is among this year’s honourees of the country’s second-highest civilian award, the Padma Vibhushan................

The L&T chairman had earlier received India’s third-highest civilian honour, the Padma Bhushan, in 2009, the year Arihant was launched...............

“Mr A.M. Naik… richly deserves the Padma Vibhushan,” tweeted RBI independent director S. Gurumurthy. “He is a nationalist as his biography is itself titled. Genius as a professional manager, he saved L&T from Ambanis, turned it into national security asset from just an engineering co. Congrats Mr Naik,” he added..............

https://theprint.in/defence/padma-vibhushan-for-am-naik-who-fought-ambani-and-birla-to-lead-lts-defence-strides/183631/

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby jaysimha » 15 Feb 2019 12:13

Image
international engineering sourcing show
chennai trade center 14-16th march
https://www.iesshow.in/
Image

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby hemant_sai » 15 Feb 2019 12:41

Kakarat wrote:https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1094942474118803456

Image


I hope these are not just numbers on paper. In simple terms whatever amount is not yet paid to HAL, must not be part of these numbers.

In that case I would expect govt. could have shared its thought if recent HAL borrowing due to lack of funds is justified or not. If really situation is so bright then why HAL projected itself in bad light and what action govt. will take against HAL authorities and Union leaders if they are spreading wrong information.

Govt. should take the policy of enforcing accountability on all its workers in terms of speaking of factual data. Why should they be ignored just like that even if proven for spreading false information?

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby JayS » 15 Feb 2019 13:34

hemant_sai wrote:
Kakarat wrote:https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1094942474118803456

Image


I hope these are not just numbers on paper. In simple terms whatever amount is not yet paid to HAL, must not be part of these numbers.

In that case I would expect govt. could have shared its thought if recent HAL borrowing due to lack of funds is justified or not. If really situation is so bright then why HAL projected itself in bad light and what action govt. will take against HAL authorities and Union leaders if they are spreading wrong information.

Govt. should take the policy of enforcing accountability on all its workers in terms of speaking of factual data. Why should they be ignored just like that even if proven for spreading false information?


Why not spent 10min on internet to understand difference in numbers shown as revenues and profits and cash flow statements first rather than hyperventilate on half baked knowledge..? What value does it add to your own personal knowledge and to the forum..?

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby JayS » 18 Feb 2019 09:25

KaranM, remember we talked about Project Kautilya..? It breaks cover now.

ISRO to launch ELNIT satellite EMISAT aboard PSLV C45 on 14th March 2019. News in TOI.


Some blog mentioned its 500kg class Sat. Based on same platform as HySIS.

https://t.co/8pEbwRRGEk

Also I noticed DRDO's tech road map for 2021-26 has an item on creating ELNIT Sattelite cluster Tech


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