Indian Military Helicopters

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby rkhanna » 14 Jan 2019 16:18

Singha wrote:from what i read
- garuds have no csar mission (yet) and there is not much a of jsocish dedicated csar planning. they are restricted to protecting vital iaf infra.
- sead/dead is expected to be done by fast wing jets using ARMs not helicopters . no heli in the world has the necessary sensors and missiles for this, let alone escaping a fight with a pantsyr or tor type system.



That is not correct.

Garud is fully slated for SEAD/DEAD - JTAC, CSAR mission profiles and trains hard for it. They have routinely demonstrated their capability at home (large scale IA/IAF ex) as well as Ex Red Flag and Op Pitch Black.

In Fact Garud Recently cross trained with the Para's to take over a "hostile" Airfield and get the ATC up and running to handle IAF Aircraft.



PS JSOC is the CT command carved out of SOCOM. Most CSAR mission would fall to SOCOM elements not JSOC - PJs etc.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 14 Jan 2019 18:44

I stand corrected then

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 14 Jan 2019 18:59

Read the Apache's mixed performance in Afghanistan where they took v.heavy damage from a variety of ground fire and were used with restrictions, FW aircraft carrying out most ops. Our attack helos will require some heavy armour protecting the cockpit and vital areas as the Pakis have a variety of useful anti- air weaponry. We need a tough close support aircraft like the heavily armoured A-10/ SU-25 which can attack ground targets from safer alt.SU-25s did very well in Syria and the US is still operating its A-10s.

Though the ALH is being used in Siachen I wonder whether a stripped down ALH variant can be developed in similar fashion as was done with the SA-315 Lama/ Cheetah combining the best of the All-2 and 3 for mountain/ high alt. ops.I think we've built around 300 Cheetahs thus far.This may provide better performance.
It will be interesting to see how the KA-226 performs in Siachen as well as our own LUH in the future.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby John » 14 Jan 2019 19:03

^ Su-25 didn't fair to well against manpads and no amount of armor is going to protect you from that ( need a soft kill mechanism or APS).

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 14 Jan 2019 19:38

In Afghanistan, the US lost 12 Apaches, 15 UH-60s and 27 Chinooks.The Saudis have slso lost a few in Yemen.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Austin » 14 Jan 2019 19:56

27 Chinooks loss in Afghanistan are you sure ? how is that loss so big against those Taliban ?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby John » 14 Jan 2019 20:49

Philip wrote:In Afghanistan, the US lost 12 Apaches, 15 UH-60s and 27 Chinooks.The Saudis have slso lost a few in Yemen.

0 apache due to hostile fire and 13 Chinook due to hostile fire.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... fghanistan

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nachiket » 15 Jan 2019 03:35

That is hardly surprising. The Chinook is a big, juicy, slow moving target for MANPADS and AD guns. Flying into unsanitized environments in the Afghan mountains with plenty of places for jihadis with Stingers (ironically provided by the Americans themselves :lol:) to hide is dangerous. Even areas around airbases if not completely cleared will be deadly. Same reason the soviets lost a whole lot of Mi-8s during their occupation. Doesn't mean that either of the helos were bad or didn't perform well. Just the nature of warfare in Afghanistan.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby rkhanna » 15 Jan 2019 16:02

On the topic of Apache's doing SEAD/DEAD

The Battle of Karbala (2003) was probably the last attempt to run a Large Scale Rotary Wing Assault Op in a built up area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_attack_on_Karbala

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 15 Jan 2019 16:34

and this is exactly what will happen when fighting over large built up towns and villages in daylight anywhere a determined and clever foe waits - like TSP. the apaches would have fared much better if they attacked in the night as they'd be harder to track and hit with manual AA guns and RPGs.
even a couple of Tor batteries that escaped any sead efforts would make life hell for gunships with their fast agile missiles and rapid salvo rates.

I submit that heli gunships are vulnerable in the day over congested areas...no matter how hifi the kit.

same way MBTs are now on the backfoot and trying to layer on ever more expensive countermeasures against large landmines and everyone is packing a kornet these days.....can easily pierce any MBT in the side hull and rear aspects from ambush positions. a mass salvo of F&F ATGMs from Tor type vehicles will make life very tough.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby John » 15 Jan 2019 19:11

IMO Helicopters are useful for COIN we have seen how quickly apache's and mi-28 are used to level any large insurgent attacks in Iraq/Afghanistan. Lack of attack helicopters greatly hurt Iraq during ISIL rise.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 15 Jan 2019 20:52

True we had those videos of iraqi gazelle and hsvocs attacking a 10km long isis convoy retreating from falluja
At night they are very effective for sure
In daytime have to but careful of envelope

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JayS » 16 Jan 2019 12:12

Been thinking about Gen Rawat's Statement regarding IA's POV about role of Apache (article linked in India Army News and Discussions thread). IA is categorical in saying Apache must be used entirely as "Tank killers". While IAF was at least a few in "Anti Heli" ops. But the COAS says Rudra can do Anti Heli ops. I am wonderting, wouldn't it make more sense to press Rudra in anti-tank mission and free up some Apache in anti-heli ops as Apache is clearly superior to Rudra as a combat helicopter in every respect..? I cannot fathom IA's perspective on this matter. Not using Apache in A2A mode would be under-utilization of the platform I feel.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Neshant » 16 Jan 2019 12:45

Singha wrote:True we had those videos of iraqi gazelle and hsvocs attacking a 10km long isis convoy retreating from falluja
At night they are very effective for sure
In daytime have to but careful of envelope



No one ever discusses where all these terrorists get their "convoy" of vehicles from.

Nor where all their monies come from.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Austin » 16 Jan 2019 13:01

Convoy were mostly Toyotas and funding were from Rich private Saudi citizen ( just a psedu name for Saudi government ) ....IS were Sunni Wahabi folks

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 16 Jan 2019 13:03

why cannot anti-heli ops be done by fighters which have far superior radar , a LDP and lookdown modes.

apaches with stinger and rudra / lch with mistals will have no guidance radar and just need to orient the seeker and fire LOBL right?
these i would suggest are more defensive shots than offensive hunting. with their lack of speed and height they have no chance of catching a fighter unless its head on.

presence of roving fighters will make life very damgerous for helis. esp light hawk type fighters with a good gun also. if a diving attack from above helis have no real defences

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby rkhanna » 16 Jan 2019 13:51

Austin wrote:Convoy were mostly Toyotas and funding were from Rich private Saudi citizen ( just a psedu name for Saudi government ) ....IS were Sunni Wahabi folks


During its height ISIS also had a decently large income producting and selling Oil on the black market. As high as $1.5-3mm a day. They had captured significant OilFields in Iraq and Syria

"Estimates of the income ISIL derived from its oil operations vary. In 2014, Dubai-based energy analysts put the combined oil revenue from ISIL's Iraqi-Syrian production as high as US$3 million per day.[7] An estimate from October 2015 indicated the production to be about 34,000-40,000 bpd that was sold at US$20–45 at the wellhead generating an income of US$1.5 million per day.[2] Another 2015 estimate sets the monthly income as high as US$40 million.[8] Various other reports indicated in 2015 that ISIS obtained 1.1 to 1.5 million dollars a day from selling of oil and its products.[9][10][11] At the end of 2015 increased air strikes targeting oil production and distribution started to affect oil operations.[12] Thus an estimate for March 2016 was a monthly income of about US$20 million.[13]"


In 2015 or so there was compelling evidence to point fingers to people highup/close to the Turkish regime having significant interests in this oil trade.

As of 2017 ISIS was selling the oil back to Asad as well not to mention Jordan/Israel etc


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_produ ... ng_in_ISIL

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 16 Jan 2019 13:59

this kind of cottage industry oil refining has devasted nigeria - people are doing what they must to survive. the real dons will be smoking cigars and riding mercs in Lagos. rich or poor, have to say everyone in equatorial west african region looks ripped and ready for a fight. truly a golden area for strength sports. in middle ages, the slave trade bled this region dry. they were the strongest with some chance to survive the voyage, locked in the ships hold. so this gene pool covers the north and south american black pop.

awe inspiring photos here https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2013/ ... es/100439/

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Lalmohan » 16 Jan 2019 14:17

Singha wrote:why cannot anti-heli ops be done by fighters which have far superior radar , a LDP and lookdown modes.


i think the speed differential is the main problem so fast jets have trouble getting into position, plus helos can hide in the ground clutter. other helos flying at same speeds and heights are better able

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ks_sachin » 16 Jan 2019 15:45

Singha wrote:why cannot anti-heli ops be done by fighters which have far superior radar , a LDP and lookdown modes.

apaches with stinger and rudra / lch with mistals will have no guidance radar and just need to orient the seeker and fire LOBL right?
these i would suggest are more defensive shots than offensive hunting. with their lack of speed and height they have no chance of catching a fighter unless its head on.

presence of roving fighters will make life very damgerous for helis. esp light hawk type fighters with a good gun also. if a diving attack from above helis have no real defences

Cost,
Speed,
Prioritisation

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ks_sachin » 16 Jan 2019 15:50

JayS wrote:Been thinking about Gen Rawat's Statement regarding IA's POV about role of Apache (article linked in India Army News and Discussions thread). IA is categorical in saying Apache must be used entirely as "Tank killers". While IAF was at least a few in "Anti Heli" ops. But the COAS says Rudra can do Anti Heli ops. I am wonderting, wouldn't it make more sense to press Rudra in anti-tank mission and free up some Apache in anti-heli ops as Apache is clearly superior to Rudra as a combat helicopter in every respect..? I cannot fathom IA's perspective on this matter. Not using Apache in A2A mode would be under-utilization of the platform I feel.

I have heard of rudra and Apache as shaft of the spear and tip respectively....
Also threat perception is that we are not going to face apaches so anti helo not a priority...
Just heard from coffeewala....

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Lalmohan » 16 Jan 2019 16:18

the pak cobras are configured to carry sidewinders I believe?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JayS » 16 Jan 2019 17:32

Singha wrote:why cannot anti-heli ops be done by fighters which have far superior radar , a LDP and lookdown modes.

apaches with stinger and rudra / lch with mistals will have no guidance radar and just need to orient the seeker and fire LOBL right?
these i would suggest are more defensive shots than offensive hunting. with their lack of speed and height they have no chance of catching a fighter unless its head on.

presence of roving fighters will make life very damgerous for helis. esp light hawk type fighters with a good gun also. if a diving attack from above helis have no real defences


I suppose the context is only limited to how to utilize the Apaches. IAF is free to do use Fighters when they are called to sanitize airspace of enemy helis. But since Army is not a stake holder per say when it comes to Fighters they would differ that call to IAF completely.

Deejay saar, if you are reading this, can you throw some light on this..?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JayS » 16 Jan 2019 17:44

ks_sachin wrote:
JayS wrote:Been thinking about Gen Rawat's Statement regarding IA's POV about role of Apache (article linked in India Army News and Discussions thread). IA is categorical in saying Apache must be used entirely as "Tank killers". While IAF was at least a few in "Anti Heli" ops. But the COAS says Rudra can do Anti Heli ops. I am wonderting, wouldn't it make more sense to press Rudra in anti-tank mission and free up some Apache in anti-heli ops as Apache is clearly superior to Rudra as a combat helicopter in every respect..? I cannot fathom IA's perspective on this matter. Not using Apache in A2A mode would be under-utilization of the platform I feel.

I have heard of rudra and Apache as shaft of the spear and tip respectively....
Also threat perception is that we are not going to face apaches so anti helo not a priority...
Just heard from coffeewala....


That's pretty much the same thing everyone says - Apache would be the tip of the spear and so on. But that's very top level thinking. There is no clarity on finer points on exact intended roles. Not that I am interested in operational details but what I am amazed at is the categorical opinion of IA that Apache are "tank killers". And that Rudra can take up anti heli role. Not even LCH. Rudra is not a true CH platform. I was expecting Longbow would give substantial edge to Apache even over LCH in anti-heli ops.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 16 Jan 2019 17:57

the longbow radar an/apg 78 has some limited form of air overwatch capability but not oriented to being a airborne target tracker.
mmw seems 10x more freq than X band. so range may not be good http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electr ... -chart.gif

the problem of how to tackle well armed helis has been studied in great depth, but with no permanent solution

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J-CATCH#Phase_I

i would imagine the paki cobras and 1z vipers will be a real pita, sneaking around at night, extremely narrow front x-section.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Lalmohan » 16 Jan 2019 20:13

so there has to be some thinking in IA on the cobras...

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby abhik » 16 Jan 2019 20:51

How does a helicopter vs helicopter intercept work exactly? Helicopters are slow (relative to fighters), mostly don't have radars nor longer range missiles. Going through actual combat history, vast majority of helicopters appear to be shot down either from ground based artillery/missiles or by fighters.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a ... shootdowns

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Lalmohan » 16 Jan 2019 22:12

^^^ that's because there have been very few wars where both sides had helicopters and were using them in offensive combat roles

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby prashantsharma » 16 Jan 2019 22:15

I agree with the COAS' views... Whether deployed in the anti-helicopter role or the anti-armour role, the bulk, if not all, of the Apaches should ideally be with the Army. The paki cobras and hinds will be out there harassing Indian troops and armour. Isn't it better to give the Indian Army the resources in the form of the Apaches (or Rudras, let them decide which is better suited to which role) to deal with the paki threat.. so much simpler than asking the army to route mission requests and all that up the chain of command to the IAF, them having a say on it, squabbling and finger pointing blah blah...
In the past, there were good reasons for placing the Mi-25/35s with the IAF. The situation is considerably different now and the army air corps is sufficiently experienced to operate these complex helicopters.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Lalmohan » 16 Jan 2019 22:19

or have joint commands where assets are deployed from any service depending on threat situation...

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 16 Jan 2019 22:25

see the problem is in 2017, the IA (AAC) asked for 39 apaches. when DAC said no can do, AAC asked for 11 (which was options after the 22 confirmed ones for IAF). DAC said no can do and cleared 6.
till date this is the only apaches that AAC has got. will be delivered after the IAF gets its 22.
they can still hope for 5 more to fill the 11 options.

on paper some 119 LCH are "confirmed" orders though I guess LCH has not seen IOC yet and no formal order signed.

https://thediplomat.com/2018/06/us-appr ... -to-india/

The six additional AH-64Es are intended for service in the Indian Army’s Aviation Corps (AAC) and expected to be delivered by 2020.

http://idrw.org/battle-for-apaches-war- ... c-and-iaf/

pretty much all of the developed world has moved to having the army own the attack choppers. murica has been like that since the dawn of attack choppers. but iaf is loathe to downsize and give up control of any helicopters.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 16 Jan 2019 22:25

Over 300 US helos were losi in Afg. and Iraq.Wiki even has a pic of an Apache shot down.Over a year ago I posted how Apaches were withdrawn from tough ops in Afg. after suffering v.heavy losses and damage in early ops.

Upgrades of MI-35s include AAMs.Even the US is upgrading its attack helos.Our attack helos' primary task should be exterminating enemy armourl. As ground forces will have their own integral and mobile SAM/AA systems, helos do not require large nos. of AAMs carried.We are yet to see I think a helo vs helo aif battle outside of Hollywood.Far more likely will be helos defending themselves against AAA/ SAM and MANPADS fire.

A new Ru ATGM helo launched has a 10km range.Longer- ranged ATGMs fired from helos will assist in better survivability along with heavily armoured attck helos. All attack helos must be slaved with the IA.The IAF have in the past been accused of looking down upon " menial" tasks like close support and GA. However, ultimately it is the ground forces who hold territory and the army that has an excellent integrated air asset with real time prosecution in the air- land context ,will prevail over one which has to constantly request its air force to respond.It is past time that we instituted theatre commands to maximise the synergy of such integrated forces.

Pray, what great effect will 20+ Apaches achieve in IAF roundels with such a vast extent of borders to defend? 6 Apaches in IA colours are also an absurdity. The real dog work will be done by the large number of armed utility helos in their hundreds, like MI-17Vs and ALH Rudras until we possess around 120 to 200 LCHs.But as said earlier, even our attack helos must be supported by dedicated fixed- wing CS aircraft acting in total concert with the helos and armour/ infantry.
Last edited by Philip on 16 Jan 2019 22:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 16 Jan 2019 22:28

the armed hawk with astra1 and r73/python5 would be a ideal asset do anti armour and anti helicopter role - if we can get the helina on it.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 16 Jan 2019 22:37

True.However, building such variants was repirtedly sjot dow becos of cost.Tucanos are in service in several nations.Even the armed Yak-130 is a cheaper option than armed Hawk variants.It can carry 3 tons of ordnance like AAMs, ASMs, PG bombs, etc on 6 uw stations, plus two wing- tip AAMs/ ESM pods.The bird is only around $15M when compared with a US tag of around the same for an Apache.

India is reportedly (13/6/18, US State Dept.) paying a staggering 900+M for just 6 Apaches in a total package deal including weaponry, trg.etc., while Boeing in an approx. $ 3.5B deal is supplying almost 270 helos!That's arounx $ 150M a bird, even more than a JSF!
Last edited by Philip on 16 Jan 2019 22:47, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nam » 16 Jan 2019 22:39

I do support Apache going to IAF, in fact I want them to go IN!

It does not matter who has the chopper. There has been drum beating about "integration" for years, so the services need to talk among themselves. Handing over the choppers to IA is the easy way out. If you cannot integrate a chopper..

Is IAF having choppers makes it difficult operationally? May be. If it does, then better sort it out themselves than complaining in media.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Prasad » 16 Jan 2019 23:01

HTT-40 armed version with guns and a couple of IR guided missiles might work in the helihunter role.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby abhik » 16 Jan 2019 23:18

Lalmohan wrote:^^^ that's because there have been very few wars where both sides had helicopters and were using them in offensive combat roles

There are a few examples like Gulf war -1, with 6 cases involving helicopters:- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_engag ... e_Gulf_War

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby John » 16 Jan 2019 23:46

Philip wrote:True.However, building such variants was repirtedly sjot dow becos of cost.Tucanos are in service in several nations.Even the armed Yak-130 is a cheaper option than armed Hawk variants.It can carry 3 tons of ordnance like AAMs, ASMs, PG bombs, etc on 6 uw stations, plus two wing- tip AAMs/ ESM pods.The bird is only around $15M when compared with a US tag of around the same for an Apache.

India is reportedly (13/6/18, US State Dept.) paying a staggering 900+M for just 6 Apaches in a total package deal including weaponry, trg.etc., while Boeing in an approx. $ 3.5B deal is supplying almost 270 helos!That's arounx $ 150M a bird, even more than a JSF!

Where do you get the figures from please don't say wiki unit/cost and compare that with actual designs that are signed for Apache. If you look at Yak-130 deals and calculate the cost from that, Bangladesh paid over 30 million each for Yak-130 in 2015 (even Syria had to spend around 20 mill each for Yak-130 in 2012 the deal was heavily subsidized).

Where as recent IAF Hawk order that is on hold works out to around 17 million each (32 for 3500 crores). Armed hawk will cost more but it will still work out to less than Yak-130 and will be built locally.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Bala Vignesh » 17 Jan 2019 00:39

Prasad wrote:HTT-40 armed version with guns and a couple of IR guided missiles might work in the helihunter role.

IMO, that's the best solution for anti helicopter option. If we can update the engine to its rated power and increase the payload of the aircraft, along with Airborne Nag, it would be a potent weapon system.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nam » 17 Jan 2019 01:55

I am not convinced that HTT 40 or Hawk can survive in a anti-tank role. If it was that simple, we would not have solutions like Su25 and A-10.

If they are flying low, they are coming towards the target, and will be hit by anti- aircraft guns. If they fly high, they could be targeted by mobile SAM.

What makes chopper suitable for anti-tank is it's ability to hide. And ability to fire top attack ATGM, which can "pop up" , thus not truly requiring a straight line firing.

If you cannot find it the chopper, you cannot hit it. A armed UAV is better option for anti-tank or a combination of heli+propeller like the Defiant program if you want faster helis.


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