Indian Military Helicopters

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby wig » 11 May 2019 12:19

https://www.livemint.com/news/india/ind ... 10844.html

India gets its first Apache Guardian attack helicopter in US.
With new Apache helicopters, Indian Air Force adds a lethal punch to its capabilities
The handover took place at a ceremony in Boeing’s production facility in Mesa, Arizona

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby rohitvats » 11 May 2019 23:21

The Mi-24/35 Squadrons of IAF are/were based in Pathankot and Suratgarh. Both understandable locations - Pathankot was action in the sensitive Gurdaspur - Pathankot - Sambha - Jammu - Akhnoor belt. Here, the Akbar's would face-off against the Pakistan Army Mangla based 1 Corps or Army Reserve North, which has the 6th Armored Division under it. Not to mention other independent armored brigades and mechanized brigades.

And Suratgarh can be seen from perspective of offensive action by Strike Corps in the desert sector of south Pakistani Punjab/North Sindh.

One of the Apache squadrons will be based in Pathankot, which makes complete sense. But the second squadron will be based on Jorhat, Assam. So, what happens to Suratgarh?

My guess is that we've given the older air-frames to Afghanistan and retained the best - which will continue as the Mi-35 Squadron in Suratgarh. While Pathankot squadron converts from Mi-24/35 to Apaches, its helicopters either given to Afghanistan or consolidated under Squadron in Suratgarh.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby tsarkar » 12 May 2019 00:00

Rohit, happy to be corrected but I think we purchased 4 Mi-25/35 airframes from Russia and gave then to Afghanistan. Indian Mi-25/35 were Israeli upgraded with El-Op COMPASS as used in Dhruv, Rudra & LCH and not suitable for giving to Afghanistan nor does any Muslim country accept any Zionist equipment. We did gift unarmed Cheetah/Chitals to Afghanistan.

The Israeli upgraded Mi-25/35 are still in service.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 14 May 2019 05:13

All Apaches will be on western sector only.. Can't see them managing power on the eastern front.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Chinmay » 14 May 2019 11:03

Cybaru wrote:All Apaches will be on western sector only.. Can't see them managing power on the eastern front.


Reports say that the NE will get a squadron

Air Marshal AS Butola represented the IAF and accepted the helicopter in a ceremony at the facility in front of representatives of the US Government. Once the fleet is inducted, one squadron is likely to go to the Northeast sector under the Eastern Air Command in Shillong, Meghalaya and the other in the Western Command.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby jaysimha » 15 May 2019 16:34

FIRST APACHE HELICOPTER FORMALLY HANDED OVER TO THE IAF
13/05/2019
New Delhi : Vaisakha 21, 1941
Saturday,11 May 2019 http://indianairforce.nic.in/content/fi ... d-over-iaf
Image

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby chola » 15 May 2019 16:44

The thing looks aggressive. It is the most menacing looking attack copter on earth, imo. Glad it is in our side. Pakis be green with envy seeing SDREs with this gear.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby kit » 15 May 2019 19:22

Chinmay wrote:
Cybaru wrote:All Apaches will be on western sector only.. Can't see them managing power on the eastern front.


Reports say that the NE will get a squadron

Air Marshal AS Butola represented the IAF and accepted the helicopter in a ceremony at the facility in front of representatives of the US Government. Once the fleet is inducted, one squadron is likely to go to the Northeast sector under the Eastern Air Command in Shillong, Meghalaya and the other in the Western Command.


Newer Apaches for India are the guardian model that has higher engine power and might be more capable in higher altitudes than the older versions

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby brar_w » 15 May 2019 20:18

The block III Apache (E) regains most of the performance of the original AH-64A that was lost over time with weight growth so most definitely will have higher margins there compared to the block IIs of the past. That said, the T901 with 50% more thrust, and 20-25% lower fuel burn will be available as an upgrade well before the mid-life upgrade stage for these helos. In fact, it should be available for export in the second half of the next decade so there's more performance to be had for those higher altitude deployments over the lifetime of the aircraft.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vivek K » 15 May 2019 23:21

LCH is better!

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Jay » 16 May 2019 09:15

Vivek K wrote:LCH is better!

:)

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby rrao » 16 May 2019 11:36

Boeing photographer is smart!!! Longbow radome is not seen clearly!!!

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby rohitvats » 16 May 2019 13:38

A great article by a former Helicopter Test Pilot from IN.

https://www.thequint.com/voices/opinion/indian-air-force-apache-attack-helicopters-true-guardians-indigenous-weaponry

The Apaches come as a vital shot in the arm for attack helicopter capability, that has been greatly diminished over years. Two squadrons of Mi-35 helicopters, formerly based out of 104 Sqn at Suratgarh and 125 Sqn at Pathankot, have now been reduced to a single – almost notional capability.

An avionics and night-upgrade package for the vintage Mi-35s was undertaken through Israel Aerospace Limited (IAI) in 2002-03. This kept the birds, bought through the Indian Army’s budget – but operated and maintained by the IAF – mission-worthy for a decade.

Soon, maintenance and overhaul woes grounded most of these helicopters. First of the four older Mi-25s were gifted to Afghanistan in July 2018. As such, these machines are hardly supportable in India today.


The Indian Army has also been pitching their own case for attack helicopters, owned, operated and maintained by the Army Aviation Corps. The Mi-35s were inducted in an era when all that Army aviators had ever flown were light Chetaks and Cheetahs. IAF, as the custodian of all air power wisdom in India, had their say in buying the Mi-35 assets out of Army budget and operating them, gaining much tactical skills and operational experience (some through United Nations Missions).

A single Army aviator, on rotation, was posted to the IAF’s attack helicopter squadron. No Army aviator ever commanded 104 or 125 Squadron.

The Army learnt attack helicopter operations vicariously, and waited for an opportunity that never came, till the IAF moved its case for 22 attack helicopters.


When numbers are short and challenges are many, is it a better idea to split assets between two contenders, or to consolidate them under one service towards a common doctrine? This is a question that the IAF and the Army will have to answer in the years to come.


The real guardian can never be an imported helicopter or piece of weaponry. Even as we celebrate the induction of the Apache, it is time to acknowledge a solid capability developed in-house – the weaponized ALH Rudra. Bristling with missiles, rockets, cannons, even air-to-air missiles, over 30 of these have been inducted by the Army (16 with the IAF), while another 30 are on the anvil with Initial Operational Clearance.


Rudra seems to be going places. From what I remember, IA had projected a requirement for 60 of this type.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby tsarkar » 16 May 2019 15:59

^^ I stand corrected - ex-IAF helicopters were transferred. However the maintenance issue doesn't gel with that fact that Mi-35 is still in production with recent sale to Pakistan. A lot of countries in the world use Mi-35 that has common subsystems with Mi-8/17 that is the most produced helicopter in the world with 17,000+ produced till date.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sudhan » 16 May 2019 16:18

rrao wrote:Boeing photographer is smart!!! Longbow radome is not seen clearly!!!


This particular unit does not have the Longbow radar.. only a part of our order has the longbow radar

The LB dome is too big to hide behind a rotor blade..

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby VikramA » 16 May 2019 16:21

As per shiv aroor of the 22 Apaches ordered, 11 have long bow. So two Apaches will work as a team, one with longbow and one without.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Mort Walker » 16 May 2019 17:04

Vivek K wrote:LCH is better!


This is true. 22 Apaches and 15 Chinooks for $1.4 billion. The Chinooks I can see, but funds should be used to promote Indian products and build them up. Cost wise, the Apaches are probably $10-$15 million more, but more orders for the LCH will create a huge knowledge base in manufacturing and ancillary industries within country and establish a better logistics chain.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kartik » 17 May 2019 00:36

rrao wrote:Boeing photographer is smart!!! Longbow radome is not seen clearly!!!


Nothing of that sort. There are plenty of very clear images that show that the first Apache is one without a Longbow radar. half of the IAF's Apaches are non-Longbow equipped.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby mody » 17 May 2019 14:25

Its been more then a year, since the LSP of 15 LCH was approved. Yet, we haven't seen any production variant LCH coming out. What is holding up the production? Any updates?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Hari Nair » 17 May 2019 14:28

mody wrote:Its been more then a year, since the LSP of 15 LCH was approved. Yet, we haven't seen any production variant LCH coming out. What is holding up the production? Any updates?


The process of price negotiation is on, to be followed by releasing the contract.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Bart S » 17 May 2019 16:12

^Given that it is in effect the MOD/GOI paying the MOD/GOI, why does this take so long?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby chola » 17 May 2019 16:23

Hari Nair wrote:
mody wrote:Its been more then a year, since the LSP of 15 LCH was approved. Yet, we haven't seen any production variant LCH coming out. What is holding up the production? Any updates?


The process of price negotiation is on, to be followed by releasing the contract.


So one set of babus is negotiating against another set of babus.

We saw this with Tejas too. The idea is nuts when domestic programs are there to develop local capacity.

It would be different if we had multiple domestic suppliers. At that point, the MIC would be self-sufficient but right now we are trying to get it off the ground.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Hari Nair » 17 May 2019 18:31

Well, it was in 1999-2000 that MoD (Fin) introduced tighter financial accountability norms. They asked the Services to draw up contracts for induction of the ALH (Dhruv).
This was based on the successful signing of the contract for the MiG-27 upgrade.
Before that, it was a system of RMS Orders, in which essentially the fixed price quoted by simply paid up-front for inducting the aircraft and spares from HAL.
It's not “nuts” and more so, definitely not “one set of babus is negotiating against another set of babus”. Let me assure you that the Service officers, who are part of the negotiations committee usually drive a very hard bargain indeed. Fiscal accountability is here to stay, unless one wants to go the way of Soviet Union.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby deejay » 17 May 2019 23:46

rohitvats wrote:The Mi-24/35 Squadrons of IAF are/were based in Pathankot and Suratgarh. Both understandable locations - Pathankot was action in the sensitive Gurdaspur - Pathankot - Sambha - Jammu - Akhnoor belt. Here, the Akbar's would face-off against the Pakistan Army Mangla based 1 Corps or Army Reserve North, which has the 6th Armored Division under it. Not to mention other independent armored brigades and mechanized brigades.

And Suratgarh can be seen from perspective of offensive action by Strike Corps in the desert sector of south Pakistani Punjab/North Sindh.

One of the Apache squadrons will be based in Pathankot, which makes complete sense. But the second squadron will be based on Jorhat, Assam. So, what happens to Suratgarh?

My guess is that we've given the older air-frames to Afghanistan and retained the best - which will continue as the Mi-35 Squadron in Suratgarh. While Pathankot squadron converts from Mi-24/35 to Apaches, its helicopters either given to Afghanistan or consolidated under Squadron in Suratgarh.


Hi Rohit, both Pathankot and S'Garh sqns are embedded part of their respective strike corps.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby kit » 18 May 2019 06:37

I guess this was a question asked before, are the apaches interoperable with the Rudras ? Say one or two longbow apaches with a squadron of rudras ?
That would be literally one hell of a tank busting unit !!

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby MeshaVishwas » 21 May 2019 07:39

Copter crash ‘self-hit’, IAF commander out-Ajay Banerjee, The Tribune.

https://www.tribuneindia.com/mobi/news/nation/copter-crash-self-hit--iaf-commander-out/775881.html

Even as an inquiry into the February 27 crash of an Mi-17 helicopter at Budgam near Srinagar nears completion, the Indian Air Force has removed the Air Officer Commanding (AOC) of the Srinagar air base — a move to show that procedural lapses will not go unpunished.

All six airmen on board the helicopter and a civilian on ground were killed. The helicopter was downed by a surface-to-air missile (SAM) of IAF, which assumed the helicopter to be a hostile platform.

The Russian-made copter crashed at 10.05 am — around the same time as Indian and Pakistani fighters were engaging each other over Nowshera in Jammu and Kashmir. Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman’s jet was downed around 10.30 am.

The AOC of IAF base is the seniormost officer.

An ongoing inquiry into the accident has indicated lapses leading to the accident. The Air Traffic Control had called back the helicopter as an air duel between Indian and Pakistani jets escalated. This is being seen as a lapse as the helicopter should have been sent away to a safer zone instead of being called back to Srinagar. Also, as the copter was returning, it should have been made to land at the designated safe spot.

On ground, the missile system and air defence guns fire away at aircraft or helicopters which can’t be identified.

The crucial identification or the Friend or Foe (IFF) system on the Mi-17 helicopter was switched off, which was against laid down procedures. The IFF is a system on board a helicopter or plane that automatically transmits a unique identification signal.

That the IFF would remain mandatorily switched on was a decision taken last year after a near mid-air accident between a Sukhoi-30 fighter jet and a transport plane of the IAF. Though the IAF issued instructions that the IFF system should be switched on, the Srinagar air base had issued contradictory orders.

Sources said the IAF could consider criminal charges against those found having committed lapses.


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