Indian Military Helicopters

[souravB]

^^Thanks Raghu for the answers.

[Raghunathgb]

One question, Has LCH been tested with electronic war suite(RWR, MAWS etc ). If not wouldn't it entail airframe modifications?Would that affect the current LSP which are in production ?

[Bala Vignesh]

Cross post from the IN ASW and AEW thread.

https://hal-india.co.in/HAL%20Delivers%20Ch/ND__265

These helicopters are used by Navy for communication duties (Passenger transport), Cargo/ Material transport, Casualty evacuation, Search & Rescue, Areal survey & Patrolling, Emergency medical services, electronic news gathering, Anti hijacking, Off shore operation and Under-slung operation.

It seems the 8 new built chetak are only for utility role and not the Match variant for ASW role.

Wasn't there a report saying that HAL did not have sufficient blades to service the existing Cheetah and Chetak fleets? If that is correct how do they plan on managing these new deliveries to IN?
If not would that mean the exist AOG fleet will be made airworthy again?

[raghuk]

Cross post from the IN ASW and AEW thread.

https://hal-india.co.in/HAL%20Delivers%20Ch/ND__265



It seems the 8 new built chetak are only for utility role and not the Match variant for ASW role.

Wasn't there a report saying that HAL did not have sufficient blades to service the existing Cheetah and Chetak fleets? If that is correct how do they plan on managing these new deliveries to IN?
If not would that mean the exist AOG fleet will be made airworthy again?

Blades issue was an old one and even then it was only for the cheetah/cheetah never the chetak. And the chetak was never meant for ASW or ASuW missions. A 2 Ton heli can only do so much.

[VinodTK]

Security Scan - HAL's Light Utility Helicopter

[Rakesh]

Why is that title necessary?

Will 2 more deaths jolt the lumbering Indo-Russian JV for new light copters?
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/09 ... pters.html

[Cybaru]

Hope that JV goes just like MTA

[Atmavik]

Security Scan - HAL's Light Utility Helicopter

guys this is a must watch. a few points that struck me.

1. guests(a Lt Gen and AVM) are praising HAL for speed and initiative.(they are happy that they cannot criticize or blame hal )
2. army and air force teams are embedded with hal for the last 15 yrs. this is a lesson learned from navy.
3. very few changes or mods are requested. design is frozen
4. can be lightly armed for recce role.
5. cemlica has certified for military and civil role.
6. military industrial eco system has improved and helped with speed.
7. future requirement is 2000+
8. ALH Dhruv is world class.

congrats to the rotary wing of HAL. you guys are rock stars!!!

[Bala Vignesh]

Blades issue was an old one and even then it was only for the cheetah/cheetah never the chetak. And the chetak was never meant for ASW or ASuW missions. A 2 Ton heli can only do so much.

The blades for Cheetah and Chetak are different? I thought they were the same design?

[VinodTK]

Thales has been awarded a contract by HAL to supply 135 2.75-inch (70-mm) rocket launchers for the Indian Army and Air Force’s multi-role attack helicopters.

[VinodTK]

iaf mi-17-1v choppers successfully airlifts light field gun of indian army at alg tuting

[Aditya_V]

IAF is overhauling its 3 Mi26,s good decision. Mi26 and CH47 can complement each other

https://theprint.in/defence/iaf-mi-26-choppers-to-russia-overhaul/300936/

[sajaym]

+101

Once these 3 'feather weights' are back in action they should be used ASAP to complete the all pending road/rail network related works in the NE. That's what they do best. I do hope we also get a full mission simulator as part of the upgrade package, so that there is no shortage of pilots for these choppers. Why do I feel that one of these babies can swallow up a K-9 howitzer whole? Would be pretty useful to drop in a K-9 real quick at some chokepoint.

[chola]

Security Scan - HAL's Light Utility Helicopter

guys this is a must watch. a few points that struck me.

1. guests(a Lt Gen and AVM) are praising HAL for speed and initiative.(they are happy that they cannot criticize or blame hal )
2. army and air force teams are embedded with hal for the last 15 yrs. this is a lesson learned from navy.
3. very few changes or mods are requested. design is frozen
4. can be lightly armed for recce role.
5. cemlica has certified for military and civil role.
6. military industrial eco system has improved and helped with speed.
7. future requirement is 2000+
8. ALH Dhruv is world class.

congrats to the rotary wing of HAL. you guys are rock stars!!!

Rock stars indeed! Perhaps of the whole MIC establishment (if we leave out ISRO as more of a civilian endeavor.)

The future requirement of 2000 should be more than enough to sustain the local industry.

BUT the key is getting the $3.5B NUH contract against Sikorsky and Kamov. We just signed a $2.6B contract for 24 SeaHawks. Those large amounts must be spent when there is a local alternative but that can never be taken for granted in India. The requirements are there but so is the phoren lobby.

[Bart S]

Why do I feel that one of these babies can swallow up a K-9 howitzer whole? Would be pretty useful to drop in a K-9 real quick at some chokepoint.

You do realise that a K9 (if you are referring to the Korean howitzer produced by L&T under TOT, aka shameless screwdrivergiri) weighs 47 tons, right?

Unless you are referring to a dog, in which case it can indeed swallow many of them

[MeshaVishwas]

Very, very interesting roles.

And she has a much greater range(>30%) than the TVS Apache Echo.
Edit:FYI, DEAD is Destruction of Enemy Air Defences
CSFO is Counter Surface Force Operations
ESC to SHBO is Escort to Special Heliborne Operations
RPA is Remotely Piloted Aircraft.

[JayS]

^^ Is there a typo in the name..? MK-1V instead of MK-IV..??

[Bala Vignesh]

Looks like it, they must've got confused with MI-171V

[John]

^ Try not to overcomplicate it they just used "1" instead "I".

[ramana]

IAF is overhauling its 3 Mi26,s good decision. Mi26 and CH47 can complement each other

https://theprint.in/defence/iaf-mi-26-choppers-to-russia-overhaul/300936/

Finally. Would be silly to not do so and lose such heavy lift capability.

[chola]

The Z-20 should be a kick in the pants to develop and support more local capacity by giving that big 123-helo NMRH contract to HAL's globally competitive rotors division.

But I fear it will instead be used as an excuse to "urgently" buy phoren or force HAL into yet another phoren partnered screwdrivergiri.

We can't afford 123 Seahawks or equivalents anyways so there is nothing wrong with a Dhruv solution for the 123 supplemented by the 23 high end imported MH-60R.

https://m.economictimes.com/news/defence/ins-multi-role-chopper-project-assumes-urgency-after-china-displays-z-20/amp_articleshow/71608656.cms

INS multi-role chopper project assumes urgency, after China displays Z-20

India will need to speed up the process to acquire Naval Multi-Role Helicopters for its Navy to deal with security challenges in the Indian Ocean Region, especially since China displayed its indigenously developed Z-20 choppers earlier this October.

By IANS | Oct 16, 2019, 10.42 AM IST

NEW DELHI: Indian Navy's bid to acquire state-of-the-art Naval Multi-Role Helicopters (NMRH), to deal with security challenges in the Indian Ocean Region, has assumed urgency after China displayed its indigenously developed Z-20 choppers earlier this October.

...

Sources said the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is conducting an internally funded study for the NMRH, a project which is still on the drawing board. In August 2017, the Indian Navy had floated a global Request for Information (RFI) for 123 Naval Multi-Role Helicopters. But a deal is yet to be closed despite the shortfall in numbers. A multi-billion dollar deal is further in process to procure 23 multi-role MH-60R Seahawk choppers, which are produced by Sikorsky Aircraft Corporation of the US.

"But 23 choppers will not suffice for the needs of the Indian Navy. It was decided that the 123 NMRH will be developed in India under the strategic partnership model. If import has to be ruled out, the strategic partner, that is, the original equipment manufacturer has to be identified first. The urgency of acquiring the NMRH should not be lost in the corridors of the defence ministry," said a former Navy official on the condition of anonymity.

[Vips]

Four Indian firms including Tata, Adani in final race for Rs 25,000 crore chopper deal for Navy.

Four Indian firms including Tata, Adani, Mahindra Defence Systems and Bharat Forge have been shortlisted by the Indian Navy as strategic partners for the project involving a deal worth Rs 25,000 crore for indigenous manufacturing of 111 Naval Utility Choppers.

Under the first project of the strategic partnership policy of the Narendra Modi government to develop indigenous industry's defence manufacturing capacity, 111 light helicopters have to be built indigenously through joint ventures between Indian and foreign firms.

"The four Indian firms will now need to partner with foreign original equipment manufacturers including European Airbus Helicopters which has offered two choppers, American Sikorsky-Lockheed Martin and Russian Rosoboronexport," sources in the Navy told ANI.

The Navy will now take the case to the Defence Acquisition Council with the shortlisted names of both Indian and foreign manufacturers for the ambitious project to get the approval from the government for its shortlist and take the process forward.

Sources said a total of eight Indian companies had shown interest in becoming strategic partners including a public sector undertaking but only four have been shortlisted by the force which will use the new choppers to replace its fleet of Cheetah/Chetak helicopters.

The Strategic Partnership model was first envisaged under the leadership of late Manohar Parrikar during his stint as defence minister and gained shape later under Nirmala Sitharaman.

The strategic partnership model envisages tie-up between Indian and foreign firms leading to the acquisition of niche technologies and setting up of modern production facilities in India.

Under the plan, the first 16 helicopters have to be delivered from the OEM's overseas production facility and the remaining 95 helicopters Are to be manufactured in India by the selected strategic partner form.

[dinesh_kimar]

Four Indian firms including Tata, Adani in final race for Rs 25,000 crore chopper deal for Navy.
Four Indian firms including Tata, Adani, Mahindra Defence Systems and Bharat Forge

As has been pointed out in these very forums previously, thehe LUH performs the same functions as Cheetah, Chetak and the Kamov joint venture. Why the foreign tendering when desi is good enough ?

Naval utility, SAR and liaison roles can be done well by LUH, which has more powerful Safran powerplant , better ergonomics,etc.

The naval ASW requirements are anyways being imported, why import the stuff which is here already ?
Let Mahindra or Adani build LUH locally, with ToT from HAL.

Sadly, this sarkar has several self goals like this one, Kamov, Less Dhanush orders, low Akash orders, etc.

[Luxtor]

The Gov't should tell the forces that if you want helicopters or jets or any other weapon systems ... you tell us how many and we'll order them for you ....from locally available sources and technology. Only time foreign defense products will be imported is when there are no local alternatives. No arguments. End of discussion.

[Indranil]

What else does the DPP say?

It is not the govt's job to identify the equipment. Govt. only pays. Leave it to the experts (in the armed forces) to make that decision. Indian Navy will not look elsewhere if a local alternative exists. If I may say, IAF and IA are also turning that leaf slowly. But Navy is far ahead.

[srai]

INS multi-role chopper project assumes urgency, after China displays Z-20

India will need to speed up the process to acquire Naval Multi-Role Helicopters for its Navy to deal with security challenges in the Indian Ocean Region, especially since China displayed its indigenously developed Z-20 choppers earlier this October.

The headline a pun indeed ... intentional or not ...

[mody]

Today's HT report says negotiations for Ka-226T have stalled over indigenous content. The Indian side is now asking for the indigenous content of the 140 helicopters to be assembled in India, to be increased from the current projected 60% level.

The deal initially was supposed to be for 60 helis to be received in fly-away condition and balance 140 to be assembled in India.
This was later sought to be changed to all 200 to be assembled in India, probably with increasing levels of indigenisation.
Don't know what the current form of the deal under negotiation is. Hopefully this is another delaying tactic from the Indian side, till the LUH gets the IOC and the hopefully the deal will get cancelled, once the LUH receives the IOC.

To keep the Russian bear happy, we can buy the Ka-226 for the Naval LUH role. With the twin engines and replaceable cabin modules, the naval version of Ka-226, might be better suited for us. All the IA and IAF LUH requirement of approx. 400 helis can be fulfilled by HAL.

[pkudva]

Today's HT report says negotiations for Ka-226T have stalled over indigenous content. The Indian side is now asking for the indigenous content of the 140 helicopters to be assembled in India, to be increased from the current projected 60% level.

The deal initially was supposed to be for 60 helis to be received in fly-away condition and balance 140 to be assembled in India.
This was later sought to be changed to all 200 to be assembled in India, probably with increasing levels of indigenisation.
Don't know what the current form of the deal under negotiation is. Hopefully this is another delaying tactic from the Indian side, till the LUH gets the IOC and the hopefully the deal will get cancelled, once the LUH receives the IOC.

To keep the Russian bear happy, we can buy the Ka-226 for the Naval LUH role. With the twin engines and replaceable cabin modules, the naval version of Ka-226, might be better suited for us. All the IA and IAF LUH requirement of approx. 400 helis can be fulfilled by HAL.

True. This sort of delaying tactics have hurt forces for decades. It was envisaged first of Ka 226 will fly in 2018. Sometimes I fail to understand what our negotiators think. 40+ years of using Chetak & Cheetah. Forces badly need an utility helicopter and we just delay for ages.

God knows when we conclude on either LUH or Ka 226.

[mody]

Today's HT report says negotiations for Ka-226T have stalled over indigenous content. The Indian side is now asking for the indigenous content of the 140 helicopters to be assembled in India, to be increased from the current projected 60% level.

The deal initially was supposed to be for 60 helis to be received in fly-away condition and balance 140 to be assembled in India.
This was later sought to be changed to all 200 to be assembled in India, probably with increasing levels of indigenisation.
Don't know what the current form of the deal under negotiation is. Hopefully this is another delaying tactic from the Indian side, till the LUH gets the IOC and the hopefully the deal will get cancelled, once the LUH receives the IOC.

To keep the Russian bear happy, we can buy the Ka-226 for the Naval LUH role. With the twin engines and replaceable cabin modules, the naval version of Ka-226, might be better suited for us. All the IA and IAF LUH requirement of approx. 400 helis can be fulfilled by HAL.

True. This sort of delaying tactics have hurt forces for decades. It was envisaged first of Ka 226 will fly in 2018. Sometimes I fail to understand what our negotiators think. 40+ years of using Chetak & Cheetah. Forces badly need an utility helicopter and we just delay for ages.

God knows when we conclude on either LUH or Ka 226.

Should have avoided this kind of circus in the first place. When you have a similar indigenous product in the works, why even bother with an import. LUH has been in development for over 4 years and at the least, since 2017, it was clear that it will be good product and will succeed.
We should have simply signed a contract for 60 Ka-226T in fly away condition with strict delivery timelines ande closed the matter. The deliveries would have been starting by now and all would be delivered within 2 year or latest by 2021 end. Would give us enough time to complete the development and start the production of the LUH.

Even for the Naval LUH requirement, I would much rather prefer the naval-ALH then any other machine. The rotor folding along with the tail rotor as demonstarted during the last aero India, should be successfully demonstrated on board ships and to the Navies full satisfaction. If this problem is sorted then the ALH would be a much better platform, then any competing NLUH platform. It would be bigger and would be able to do a lot more then just SAR duties. Would be able to carry dunkin sonars and would also be able to carry a light torpedo. 3 Ton or a 5.5 Ton heli, would hardly make any difference on most ships and the enhanced capabilities would be able to offset and justify the higher cost.

[joygoswami]

Some great and unseen footage!

[Kartik]

The Z-20 should be a kick in the pants to develop and support more local capacity by giving that big 123-helo NMRH contract to HAL's globally competitive rotors division.

But I fear it will instead be used as an excuse to "urgently" buy phoren or force HAL into yet another phoren partnered screwdrivergiri.

We can't afford 123 Seahawks or equivalents anyways so there is nothing wrong with a Dhruv solution for the 123 supplemented by the 23 high end imported MH-60R.

https://m.economictimes.com/news/defence/ins-multi-role-chopper-project-assumes-urgency-after-china-displays-z-20/amp_articleshow/71608656.cms

INS multi-role chopper project assumes urgency, after China displays Z-20

India will need to speed up the process to acquire Naval Multi-Role Helicopters for its Navy to deal with security challenges in the Indian Ocean Region, especially since China displayed its indigenously developed Z-20 choppers earlier this October.

By IANS | Oct 16, 2019, 10.42 AM IST

NEW DELHI: Indian Navy's bid to acquire state-of-the-art Naval Multi-Role Helicopters (NMRH), to deal with security challenges in the Indian Ocean Region, has assumed urgency after China displayed its indigenously developed Z-20 choppers earlier this October.

...

Sources said the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is conducting an internally funded study for the NMRH, a project which is still on the drawing board. In August 2017, the Indian Navy had floated a global Request for Information (RFI) for 123 Naval Multi-Role Helicopters. But a deal is yet to be closed despite the shortfall in numbers. A multi-billion dollar deal is further in process to procure 23 multi-role MH-60R Seahawk choppers, which are produced by Sikorsky Aircraft Corporation of the US.

"But 23 choppers will not suffice for the needs of the Indian Navy. It was decided that the 123 NMRH will be developed in India under the strategic partnership model. If import has to be ruled out, the strategic partner, that is, the original equipment manufacturer has to be identified first. The urgency of acquiring the NMRH should not be lost in the corridors of the defence ministry," said a former Navy official on the condition of anonymity.

These are just scare tactics. The MH-60R, of which 23 units are to be bought will at least be adequate for the IN's urgent needs. the IN's requirements are not for 123 MH-60R class aircraft, a cheaper indigenous solution has to be the way to go. There is no way that 100 more imported MH-60R type helicopters can be afforded.

[Cybaru]

LCH is ready, where is the order? Whatever is not there, it is urgent. If it is available, HAL is removed from the tender.

[chola]

LCH is ready, where is the order? Whatever is not there, it is urgent. If it is available, HAL is removed from the tender.

We are like that onlee. Why bother having a PSU if you don't make it the default selection? It would be one thing if HAL were private and even here Indian businesses should be prioritized like every other nation in the world does.

But a state-supported firm like HAL? Why bother spending rupees on it if we subject it to market conditions against phoren firms? You are spending double to support a PSU that makes helicopters and then spending again to import phoren helicopters! How does this make sense?

[Cybaru]

Depressing. Twitter is rife with Dalals like Vayu Aero and Mitra.. Every retd naval person wants the helicopter or plane they dreamt of flying, no one wants anything Made in India. In some sense the lack of strong purse, helps focus Industrial growth.

[chola]

Depressing. Twitter is rife with Dalals like Vayu Aero and Mitra.. Every retd naval person wants the helicopter or plane they dreamt of flying, no one wants anything Made in India. In some sense the lack of strong purse, helps focus Industrial growth.

Having access to the best on market from the West (and Russia) is both a boon and a bane.

As far naval helicopters go, the MH-60R is the best in class. The same with the P-8 and C-17 in theirs.

So why wouldn't any pilot, current or retired, want the Navy or Air Force to fly them? They know those systems put their services among the global elite and enhance their ability to fight, especially against foes who don't have access to them.

But the decision is on the GOI to decide whether some degradation in quality is allowed so the MIC can be developed. Our nascent industry won't be able match gora firms with decades if not a century of experience at arms making. There is no point on insisting MII be exact equivalents.

Overall effectiveness might even be greater since the quality can be made up for by numbers with more affordable domestic systems. As good as the Seahawks are, we can only afford 24 and we need naval helos in the hundreds from both land and sea.

[Karan M]

Re: Cybaru.

Mitra is arguably the worst. A hotel management grad with some gas degree in "security studies", zero background in any serious technology oriented role whatsoever, goes around posturing as a "defence analyst", name calls an IAF TP as an "adrenalin junkie" (for merely expressing pride in indigenous programs) and calls Indian IT workers as "cyber coolies". I doubt he'd be competent enough to do a hard working janitors role let alone compete with the afore mentioned desi dudes he expresses contempt for. Wonder how we as a society, produce so many good for nothing jokers.

[Bart S]

Re: Cybaru.

Mitra is arguably the worst. A hotel management grad with some gas degree in "security studies", zero background in any serious technology oriented role whatsoever, goes around posturing as a "defence analyst", name calls an IAF TP as an "adrenalin junkie" (for merely expressing pride in indigenous programs) and calls Indian IT workers as "cyber coolies". I doubt he'd be competent enough to do a hard working janitors role let alone compete with the afore mentioned desi dudes he expresses contempt for. Wonder how we as a society, produce so many good for nothing jokers.

He seems to be smart and articulate + right wing so has some uses, but he is woefully ill-equipped and out of his depth on matters of defense R&D. To make things worse, he is abusive and disrespectful of people who disagree with him, even if they happen to be senior people from services backgrounds, and always takes a minimalist position on these arguments.

His latest rant on how India as a 'third world country' cannot afford a fighter program (despite the fact that almost nothing is spent on R&D and import bills for the same or inferior platforms are eye wateringly high) is beyond ridiculous.

[Karan M]

Smart and articulate only insofar as it allows him access to the powers that be and build clout. Many stories about his behavior, best left off the forum. But let me just say this, he is no RW, LW or whatever wing. He is "his own wing" and whatever allows him to get ahead. Very very slimy individual who is not making that "India cannot afford a fighter program" argument merely out of ignorance. In fact, he has bragged about his intentions in the past, even if he is smarter nowadays.

[Rahul M]

AIM is good for comic relief and not much else. I enjoyed his dance on Babar s tomb.

[Kartik]

Re: Cybaru.

Mitra is arguably the worst. A hotel management grad with some gas degree in "security studies", zero background in any serious technology oriented role whatsoever, goes around posturing as a "defence analyst", name calls an IAF TP as an "adrenalin junkie" (for merely expressing pride in indigenous programs) and calls Indian IT workers as "cyber coolies". I doubt he'd be competent enough to do a hard working janitors role let alone compete with the afore mentioned desi dudes he expresses contempt for. Wonder how we as a society, produce so many good for nothing jokers.

Some of us need to have a go at this Mitra fellow on Twitter to expose his own credentials. Hotel Management degree? And he's talking about defence and technology? So basically anyone can become a defence journo in India.