Indian Military Helicopters

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chola
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby chola » 05 Feb 2019 16:32

ArjunPandit wrote:^^how will chinook come to India? a ride on Some USN AC or some other ship


Airlifted by some of the many hundreds of C-17 in khan’s service maybe. Or maybe we go get them ourselves with ours.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Karthik S » 05 Feb 2019 16:42

When will we be getting our Apaches ?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Prithwiraj » 05 Feb 2019 20:03

I think the ferry services should be given to seller to bring the aircraft to India - what is something goes wrong during the ferry service and we end up paying prices for it. Remembering An-32 that was lost over Arabian Sea during Ferry services

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby John » 05 Feb 2019 20:24

Prithwiraj wrote:I think the ferry services should be given to seller to bring the aircraft to India - what is something goes wrong during the ferry service and we end up paying prices for it. Remembering An-32 that was lost over Arabian Sea during Ferry services

I believe they (buyer or the seller depending on contract) insurance for such losses.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Prithwiraj » 05 Feb 2019 21:07

Insurance for military aircraft? I know for civilian it is there...

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kartik » 05 Feb 2019 22:51

nam wrote:Rudra is half the price of LCH?

The weapon type,number of engine, majority of the avonics are similar. LCH might be able to carry 4 more ? ATGM. Higher speed due to the shape. But then I don't think the cost includes weapons.

What adds to the cost of LCH? Low rate of production? May be it is the cost of prototypes.


It is a new type, with a little less commonality with the Dhruv from which the Dhruv WSI/Rudra was derived..that cost of development and flight testing will be added to the unit price of each LCH.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby NachiketM » 07 Feb 2019 00:26

JayS wrote:I know of a few excersises gaming fighter vs helicopters. TACDE is a master in coming up with new games.

It is not a given that a fighter will get a kill if it's going against a helicopter. A low and slow helicopter will just keep turning into the fighter to avoid a lock or go below tree line.

That said, a helicopter is just terrible at taking on a fighters unless some "genius" is in the fighter cockpit.

Add to this, we have limited resources for air assets and there are adequate radar covers looking for movement from both sides. Helicopters won't go high, and fighter's which come low will never see the low flying helicopter until they are right on it. By the time a fighter, at "fighter" speeds, does a turn and comes back, the helicopter will have found a boulder to duck behind.

Why really go to such asymmetric platform match with heavy costs and low success probabilities? However, fighters can always keep a lookout for helicopter targets of opportunity. Spot 'em, shoot 'em.


This is where the IAF comes in... The IAF will provide the top cover/CAP to keep the enemy fighters at bay when the Apaches and Rudras of IA are doing their offensive strikes ...
I don't see PAF sending its fighters to attack the IA helos operating under IAF top cover ... That would be a great risk if PAF thinks otherwise ...

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kartik » 07 Feb 2019 02:46

From AW&ST

NEW DELHI—India has formally taken delivery of the first of 15 Chinook CH-47F heavy-lift transport helicopters from Boeing.

An official at the Indian Embassy in Washington says the unarmed transport helicopter was handed over by Boeing on Jan. 31 in the presence of Indian Ambassador to the U.S. Harsh V. Shringla at Boeing’s Chinook facility in Philadelphia.

The delivery is part of a $3.1 billion contract signed by India with Boeing in September 2015 that also covered 22 AH-64E Apache attack helicopters.

The Indian Apache deal is a direct commercial sale (DCS) with Boeing for the platform and a foreign military sale (FMS) with the U.S. government for munitions, training, aircraft certification, and components. The Chinooks are also being acquired via the DCS route but without an FMS component. India is expected to receive all of the AH-64E and CH-47F(I) helicopters by next year.

The contract also has options for 11 more Apaches and seven more Chinooks, according to an official at the Indian Ministry of Defense.

India’s Tata Advanced Systems Limited (TASL) is making crowns and tailcone assemblies for the Indian configuration of the Chinook helicopter.

Manufactured by TASL in central India’s Hyderabad, the parts are being delivered to Boeing for final assembly of the 15 helicopters on order for the Indian Air Force.

TASL is already delivering crown and tailcones for CH-47 Chinook helicopters for the U.S. Army and international customers.

The CH-47F Chinook multi mission helicopter is operated by the U.S. Army and 18 other defense forces around the world.

Boeing’s network in India includes 35 direct and 120 indirect suppliers from India that manufacture components and subassemblies for a range of commercial and defense aircraft such as the 787, 777X, F/A-18, F-15, P-8, Chinook and Apache.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 07 Feb 2019 03:21

Not too eager for additional Apaches, but the seven Chinooks would be welcome.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 07 Feb 2019 03:30

Mollick.R wrote:Any thing special (some background story etc) about this tail no (ZL-4674) ???
A quick run to Google chacha gives only two mention worthy results
1. Some Shaheed Express (From Amritsar to Jayanagar)
2 Windows Security Log Id 4674: An operation was attempted on a privileged object.

Plz tell

Nothing special....as of yet :)

Always nice to keep track of serial numbers, because when a particular aircraft is remembered for something it is always good to know which aircraft it was. For example, the first Rambha to carry the BrahMos was a Su-30MKI with Serial # SB 200 on 22 Nov 2017.

Serial numbers are also good to keep track of aircraft that crashed and are written off. I regularly visit my local bookstore and check out the latest Air Forces Monthly and Air International magazines. They have a section for crashed military aircraft. I check the list for crashed IAF and PAF aircraft. Sometimes serial numbers are there, which is good.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Mort Walker » 12 Feb 2019 09:08

Boeing Chinook Helicopters Delivered to IAF Ahead of Schedule

https://twitter.com/Boeing_In

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 12 Feb 2019 09:21

does the speed of tail rotor on a traditional heli automatically match the rotational torque of the main rotor or pilot has to control that manually ?

no such issue on chinook. wierd but effective.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Dileep » 12 Feb 2019 10:07

In a traditional heli, the 'speed' of the tail rotor is constant. It is the 'pitch'of the blade that controls the torque. It is linked to the 'rudder' pedals for the pilot to control 'yaw'. smaller pitch == less torque == heli body being pushed by the reaction of the main rotor. higher pitch == more torque == heli body being pushed against the reaction of the man rotor. The trim of this control is often managed by a gyro, so that it automagically maintains neutral yaw in normal flight.

The dual rotor helos do it by tilting the rotors.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 12 Feb 2019 10:51

So to execute a turn during hover or forward flight the rudder is pressed and the pitch of tail rotor eases up or increases to turn the nose to engage hmmm quite a complex ecosystem i would jave crashed in 5 mins

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby nachiket » 12 Feb 2019 11:04

Singha wrote:So to execute a turn during hover or forward flight the rudder is pressed and the pitch of tail rotor eases up or increases to turn the nose to engage hmmm quite a complex ecosystem i would jave crashed in 5 mins

The rudder or anti-torque pedals will allow you to turn the nose but to execute an actual "turn" you have to move the cyclic control which tilts the main rotor to make the helicopter change direction.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 12 Feb 2019 11:27

All posts on the Chinook helicopter moved to this thread.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ashishvikas » 12 Feb 2019 16:09

HAL's Light Utility Helicopter to prove its mettle at plane carnival
Anantha Krishnan M FEBRUARY 12

https://english.manoramaonline.com/news ... rials.html

A dedicated facility for manufacturing LUH and its associated systems is coming up at Tumakuru in Karnataka.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ashishvikas » 12 Feb 2019 17:00

India's Ministry of Defence has just released an expression of interest for the domestic manufacture of 111 Naval Utility Helicopters under the Strategic Partnership policy of DPP-2016.The idea is to shortlist both potential domestic manufacturers as well as foreign OEMs.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1095263550988115968

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Bharadwaj » 12 Feb 2019 18:24

ashishvikas wrote:HAL's Light Utility Helicopter to prove its mettle at plane carnival
Anantha Krishnan M FEBRUARY 12

https://english.manoramaonline.com/news ... rials.html

A dedicated facility for manufacturing LUH and its associated systems is coming up at Tumakuru in Karnataka.


This bird is a bright light for indigenous design and we will hopefully see her serving in places like Siachen soon.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby deejay » 12 Feb 2019 19:31

nachiket wrote:
Singha wrote:So to execute a turn during hover or forward flight the rudder is pressed and the pitch of tail rotor eases up or increases to turn the nose to engage hmmm quite a complex ecosystem i would jave crashed in 5 mins

The rudder or anti-torque pedals will allow you to turn the nose but to execute an actual "turn" you have to move the cyclic control which tilts the main rotor to make the helicopter change direction.


Spot turns are with rudder. Otherwise use of appropriate rudder to counter torque only. Even in spot turns, handle rudder gently as helicopters have defined max rate of rudder application.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby tsarkar » 12 Feb 2019 19:49

I wish HAL designs a gearbox & transmission for both ALH & LCH more suited to utilizing the engine output for better performance at Sea Level for the naval application. This is very much doable by RWR&DC.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JayS » 14 Feb 2019 01:08

LUH to go for hot and high trials soon, writetake tweets. It just completed cold soaking tests. IOC is very near now I think.

PS: Just saw above news item includes detailed account on this.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Austin » 14 Feb 2019 10:16

IAF favoured Boeing for new helicopters, revised parameters 5 times: CAG
The CAG, however, maintained that there were inadequate field evaluation trials for both the Chinook CH-47, manufactured in the US and its competitor, the Russian Mi-26.

In a paragraph titled “ASQRs (Air Staff Qualitative Requirements) aligned to Chinook”, the audit has noted that though the existing Mi-26 helicopters were to be replaced with new heavy-lift helicopters (HLH), “the parameters formulated for procurement were much lower”.

“The max payload capacity was reduced to 11,000 kgs as against the 20,000 kgs of Mi 26 helicopters. Seating capacity was also reduced to 45 troops as against the 82 troops of Mi-26 helicopters,” the CAG report says.


“The max underslung load was reduced to 10,000 kgs as against the underslung load capacity of 20,000 kgs of Mi-26 helicopter.”


The CAG report notes that the “revised ASQR parameters matched those of the Chinook helicopter”, adding that the Ministry of Defence (MoD) did not contest the fact that the ASQRs were aligned to Chinook helicopter.

The report further notes that during the FET (Field Evaluation Trials), the Chinook helicopter did not meet eight critical ASQR parameters while the Mi-26 did not meet five ASQR parameters.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Austin » 14 Feb 2019 10:17

CAG finds flaws in acquisition of Apache, Chinook helicopters
NEW DELHI: The Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) has found certain flaws in the acquisition of Apache Attack helicopters for which the US supplied life-expire missiles and the heavy lift helicopter-Chinook in September 2015.

On the Apache attack helicopter, the Audit found that Request for Proposals (RFP) was issued to seven vendors and only three responded.

"All of them could not meet the full set of Air Staff Qualitative Requirements (ASQRs). The tender process was cancelled. The ASQR parameters which could not be met were charged/deleted and fresh tendering was done."


"If these ASQR parameters were not needed, they should not have been included in the first place," it said.

After re-tendering, the vendors could not still meet the RFP requirements and the Defence Ministry was contemplating re-tendering for a second time. However, after much deliberation, it was approved with deviations. This took 36 weeks against the prescribed four weeks.


The report said the ASQRs were changed based on the advice of Boeing. :shock: Contract was finally awarded to Boeing for Apache helicopters.


The RFP required the vendor to offer transfer of technology for maintenance of helicopters. A separate contract was to be signed for maintenance.

Before signing the contract, Boeing convinced the Defence Ministry that transfer of technology and maintenance in India would not be cost effective in view of the small quantity of helicopters.

The Ministry agreed, said the CAG. This amounted to changing the terms of tendering during the process. Moreover, IAF would now be dependent on Boeing for repair and maintenance.


It said missiles for the attack helicopters were to be supplied by the US government under an Inter-Government Agreement (IGA). The US government supplied life-expired missiles.
:eek:

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 14 Feb 2019 12:01

When the mind is made up to buy a product, everything is done to get it, and vice versa.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 14 Feb 2019 12:48

Touche! Aeons ago, when the deals were sealed by the Snake-oil Singh UPA-2, I pointed out the lesser capabilities of the Chinook vs the MI-26 and the US's problems operating the Apache in Afg., plus its v.high cost.The C-17, P-8I,Chinook and Apache deals were Snake-Oil's payback for the N-deal, where he promised orders of billions worth of US milware.l, plus N- reactors too.

The N-reactors deal has imploded after Fukushima and the refusal of US manufacturers to sign on the N- liability clauses.However, most of the molware got through except the MMRCA fighter, where an incensed US ambassador resigned in protest after the US's venerable birds were not shortlisted.

The prime need for the heavylift helos is to carry heavy eqpt., especially road building eqpt. to construct thw border roads in the north and east to counter China. An MI-26 in a famous pic. showed it carrying a downed Chinook in AFG. Ru birds would've beem cheaper to acquire and operate.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Karthik S » 14 Feb 2019 13:53

P-8I, C 17 and C-130J are good buys. We don't have similar machines elsewhere. I always wondered the point of Apache when we are close to getting our LCH.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby gaurav.p » 14 Feb 2019 14:44

Karthik S wrote:P-8I, C 17 and C-130J are good buys. We don't have similar machines elsewhere. I always wondered the point of Apache when we are close to getting our LCH.


Indian diplomats should leverage these buys as blood money for chabahar and S400 et all. Hope we don't buy the iphone of drones inspite of any number of exceptions given.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Manish_P » 14 Feb 2019 14:47

Philip wrote: I pointed out the lesser capabilities of the Chinook vs the MI-26 .... Ru birds would've beem cheaper to acquire and operate.


It's hardly that simple. Both types have their unique advantages (and disadvantages) based on mission types. In an ideal scenario it would be great if the IAF had both types concurrently. To some extent it does indeed have it today :)

This analysis, by Dr. Vivek Ahuja, was also posted on BR forums some years ago - The Beta Coefficient - musings of an aerospace engineer - Why the Chinook is efficient and the Mi-26 is a heavy-lifting guzzler

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 14 Feb 2019 14:48

chinook is probably ok for 90% of our missions and right sized for the job. so is the Mi17V.

using a all-Mi26T fleet would need to fold up multiple supply missions into one to justify the cost, just as using a A330 is not so efficient for loads a A321 can take. purely for lifting underslung artillery around, I guess the Mi26T could take not just the howitzer but a lot of ammo and spares inside its pax cabin in one shot.

giving us a taste of chinook is khan baba's attempt to wean us off the Mi17 for medium role. i consider the 17v to be superior to both chinook and blackhawk so no need to budge there.

couldnt the Mi17v have underslung the m777?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Aditya_V » 14 Feb 2019 14:57



Khan gets a lot of favorable opinion here bordering on fanboyism, I hope this bring a reality to the perspective here, they too are not perfect suppliers and put a lot of spokes in the wheel.

The charge Big bucks and make healthy margin on everything from Harpoon II( see Paki Friendship prices compared to ours), C-17, Apaches, C-130 (8 for 1 billion), Chinooks, P-8I's etc.

There is not alternative to self sufficiency and nobody is going to TOT us the stuff.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Manish_P » 14 Feb 2019 15:17

Singha wrote:using a all-Mi26T fleet would need to fold up multiple supply missions into one to justify the cost, just as using a A330 is not so efficient for loads a A321 can take. purely for lifting underslung artillery around, I guess the Mi26T could take not just the howitzer but a lot of ammo and spares inside its pax cabin in one shot.


+1

Singha wrote:couldnt the Mi17v have underslung the m777?


I am no aero-engineer but looking at the max take off weights and engine power the Chinook and the Mi17v seem to be very evenly matched, with perhaps the CH-47 having a slight edge, at least at sea level. At elevations of Leh, for example, it will need a detailed analysis like the one done by Dr. Ahuja.

Also i don't know how important this is (and i am reminded of the heated 'T-90/Arjun inside C17' discussions here years back) but this was marketed as a capability advantage. No idea if the Mi-17 will fit. Not even sure if it matters, for our (non-expeditionary) forces, in the first place.


Chinook being loaded into a C17
Image

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JayS » 14 Feb 2019 18:45

Data point for LUH from HAL tender - max underslung load = 1000kg.

Note that cargo hook is designed for 2500kg as limit load (max weight without deformation) and 4500 ultimate load (breaking load). Just to give idea on kind of FoS used.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby abhik » 14 Feb 2019 19:30

Austin wrote:CAG finds flaws in acquisition of Apache, Chinook helicopters
NEW DELHI: The Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) has found certain flaws in the acquisition of Apache Attack helicopters for which the US supplied life-expire missiles and the heavy lift helicopter-Chinook in September 2015.
...

It said missiles for the attack helicopters were to be supplied by the US government under an Inter-Government Agreement (IGA). The US government supplied life-expired missiles.
:eek:

Do we have any more information on the "life-expire missiles"? Apaches have not been delivered yet, how is there a CAG review of its missiles - or is it just DDMites?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JayS » 14 Feb 2019 20:03

abhik wrote:

Do we have any more information on the "life-expire missiles"? Apaches have not been delivered yet, how is there a CAG review of its missiles - or is it just DDMites?



Page 45

8. Procurement of life expired Missiles
RFP stipulates that all the rockets and missiles should have a minimum life of 10 years
extendable to 20 years with refurbishments (if required). GoI procured ‘nj’ number of
Missile costing 49.6 MUSD from the stock through the US Army Supply system. It is
also mentioned that the US Government will attempt to issue missiles from
manufacturing lots 2003, 2004 and 2005 respectively. As per delivery schedule these
missiles were to be delivered in 2018.
Thus Ministry had procured Missiles which were 14 to 16 year old at the time of
delivery. By that time, these missiles will be delivered the life as well as 50 per cent of
refurbished life of these missiles would have been expired.
Ministry in response stated that Missiles are not in current production and will be
delivered to India from the existing stock of the US Army with new precursors20. These
missiles shall be regularly inspected through the US Army Stockpile Reliability
Program to ensure adequate life is available. However, Audit noted that United States
Government is supplying missile from their stock whose normal life of 10 years has
expired.


Barely 4-5yrs of shelf life left even after extension.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Katare » 14 Feb 2019 21:14

Indranil wrote:When the mind is made up to buy a product, everything is done to get it, and vice versa.

That is true!
If they have kept the payload at 20,000 kg only Mi26 would have qualified and CAG would say the ASQR were written to favor the Russians.

There are only two products in that category and they are so for apart that comparing them is almost unfair to either one of them.

Mi26 lifts 71% of its own weight in payload

Chinook lifts 108%of its own weight in payload

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nachiket » 15 Feb 2019 01:11

Katare wrote:There are only two products in that category and they are so for apart that comparing them is almost unfair to either one of them.

I don't understand how the Mi-26 and Chinook can be even considered to be in the same category. They are in fact each in their own category where they have no competitors.

Comparing Chinook to Mi-26 is like comparing C-17 to An-124. If your ASQR is wide enough to cover both it is not written correctly.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 15 Feb 2019 04:38

https://twitter.com/zone5aviation/statu ... 5616670720 ---> Immensely privileged to have spent the past week with the IAF in the Rajasthan desert, covering action at the range and some behind the scenes too. Last call for many of these charismatic aircraft, such as the Mi-35 Akbar.

Image

Image

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kakarat » 16 Feb 2019 10:05

LCH packs a punch with induction at striking distance - Anantha Krishnan M

The Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) is at striking distance
from being inducted into the Services. The designers and test crew at
the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (LTD) vouch for the chopper’s might
with four prototypes having completed the pre-induction trials as
mandated by the users – the Indian Air Force (IAF) and Indian Army.

...

The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) had cleared the proposal to
induct initial batch of 15 LCHs. Notwithstanding the nal orders to
formally come, HAL had gone ahead and began the process of
manufacturing the limited series production (LSP) platforms
...
Seven LSP platforms are at various stages of manufacturing at the
assembly hangars of HAL now.
...


Image

I think the one in the background is the LSP under manufacturing

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JayS » 16 Feb 2019 13:24

I fully expect CAG to pull HAL management for manufacturing LCH LSP too early without order and scewing up with balance sheet. BTW what the hell GOI is waiting for now..?


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