Re: Nukkad-76

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Mar 2015 13:33

I wonder if the chinese are somehow further evolved in taking the red pill and seeing how deep the rabbit hole goes? did they leave the matrix a few years before us ?

all this contempt we talk of and wish the GOI would use in its dealings with external miscreants and shadow league types, their GOC and big business has already shown it in spades. they are busy undermining the 'west' in every possible.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Mar 2015 15:39

it took cheen some 20 yrs from 1985 to 2005 to become a true tiger from a angry tomcat.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 09 Mar 2015 16:20

Singha-saar, cheen is like this large tiger, who chewed its toe-nails off and smacked its head with a brick...... The Mao revolution crap has created gaping holes that they cannot easily plug. khan is sanguine about them, despite some pre-budget enemas like "Dragon rising" papers over in DC.

The infatuation of BRF with "cheen approach" is because we are an engineer heavy forum and because cheen is good in executing project plans in manufacturing, I suspect, we assume they are good in executing a "become a superpower" plan. West is not going to allow them and we are already seeing their limitations

eg: their EP3 episode. They literally gave the plane intact to khan, despite all the apoplectic dialogues of PLA in public. Why did they not do a "let law take its own course" approach and let weeds grow around the flat tyres of the EP3? Then there is the Belgrade Embassy incident and tons of chinese nationals getting legally persecuted for random stuff. Despite all our idiocy, we virtually held italian amabssador under house-arrest, neutered khan embassy in Dilli and did a first-of-its-kind rock show at Madison Square. All under an intensely hostile khan press.

I think we took the Red pill up our ass, when Kattaboman, Veluthampi et al onwards got slapped awake, two centuries ago. That memory is still green in our hearts, while Cheen's cultural revolution wiped the lessons of opium. Their public witnessed an even more frightening scourge than opium, thanks to mao's craziness

No sir. Cheen needs a major course correction, from the current, rather reckless "besting the West" approach. Japanese did that since Meiji Restoration and till WW2. But as we all know by now, it worked fairly well initially, with neighbours and Russia. But the west ensured the implosion, once they stepped beyond the international date line. The Japanese were not careful. Cheen are also not being careful

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 09 Mar 2015 16:31

Singha wrote:I wonder if the chinese are somehow further evolved in taking the red pill and seeing how deep the rabbit hole goes? did they leave the matrix a few years before us ?

all this contempt we talk of and wish the GOI would use in its dealings with external miscreants and shadow league types, their GOC and big business has already shown it in spades. they are busy undermining the 'west' in every possible.

Exactly what I was also saying to a buddy. From neutral perspective, you gotta admire the rise of Bhest or even central asian nomads. Here are two giants: Dhesh & Cheen. They are just naturally on top due to geography and population size through out history.

But, the oirope and CA nomads won against these gaints. Maybe there were a few genocides along the way. But, thats just collateral in big picture.

However, in long term, gaints will win simply due to demographics size. Why?
Economics is based on demand and supply. Both demand and supply are created by people. More population means more demand(includind demand for jobs). More jobs means more supply.

So, the only permanent solution for the great Bhest is to reduce population in dhesh and Cheen. Thats why mao put one child policy. Thats why phoreners fund population control in dhesh.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 09 Mar 2015 16:34

what we need to adopt from panda is their ability to replicate tech made in west...In India onlee pharmaceuticals are doing it..and besides making decent profits and getting drugs to Indian people for cheap , these also cause major takleef to western pharma giants..

one thing that is wrong about chinese approach is blatant copying ,without necessarily developing tech using which they could innovate..it is like a kid cramming answers without understanding and reproducing them in exam...the panda development we have seen thus far is mainly cramming and reproducing..

while certainly western tech has to be replicated , as there is no point in re-inventing the wheel ,one must be able to innovate , thereafter ..or we ll never be able to get ahead of the west...

as far as media control and propaganda is concerned , panda has complete state control ..now that is harmful and the results are for us to see..but India is at an opposite extreme wherein people are able to undermine our sovereignty ...freedom to that kind of an extent is bad...and that is what we need to learn from Panda..

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Mar 2015 17:25

1. before innovating you must be able to replicate at scale. US did the same thing to UK and Germany in the early decades of the 20th century. slightly behind the leading edge of tech in Europe but vast scale and ability to break any patents needed. scaling brings its own rewards in wide base of learning, production tech , manpower, opportunities to 'clone' tech, JVs etc. the Sherman tank was a piece of crap compared to the Panzer IV, Tiger and Panther but was produced 10 times more. likewise the T-34 in fit n finish would not win any prizes but was produced on vast scale. the Liberty ships are another example. anything related to production.

China is replicating at scale and launching challenges to the incumbents in _100s_ of market segments in parallel. xiaomi, oppo etc are going after samsung & apple in a major way. you name any field, cheen is now having product cos trying to make worldwide forays.

just today I was reading india is in soup again because china cannot supply us extra 16 million doses of encephalitis vaccine. other day it was some flu vaccine. WTF are we not building up capacity in tropical medicines like these to supply the world?

2. some of the TV flip flop stuff and the seeming divergence between pentagon and SD are goodcop-badcop well planned psyops to force the negotiation into favourable terms...as in I like you guys and want to give you this deal, those guys are totally opposed and want to scuttle it, I can hold them off for a month so take it you want.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 10 Mar 2015 10:28

Singha wrote:1. before innovating you must be able to replicate at scale. US did the same thing to UK and Germany in the early decades of the 20th century. slightly behind the leading edge of tech in Europe but vast scale and ability to break any patents needed. scaling brings its own rewards in wide base of learning, production tech , manpower, opportunities to 'clone' tech, JVs etc. the Sherman tank was a piece of crap compared to the Panzer IV, Tiger and Panther but was produced 10 times more. likewise the T-34 in fit n finish would not win any prizes but was produced on vast scale. the Liberty ships are another example. anything related to production.

China is replicating at scale and launching challenges to the incumbents in _100s_ of market segments in parallel. xiaomi, oppo etc are going after samsung & apple in a major way. you name any field, cheen is now having product cos trying to make worldwide forays.

just today I was reading india is in soup again because china cannot supply us extra 16 million doses of encephalitis vaccine. other day it was some flu vaccine. WTF are we not building up capacity in tropical medicines like these to supply the world?

2. some of the TV flip flop stuff and the seeming divergence between pentagon and SD are goodcop-badcop well planned psyops to force the negotiation into favourable terms...as in I like you guys and want to give you this deal, those guys are totally opposed and want to scuttle it, I can hold them off for a month so take it you want.

IMO, the US did not win dominance because of copying or mass production of oiro tech. But because their slaver-founder-daddies used to read books, publish copiously (even as pamphlets during the 1770s trouble with brit-king). Each of these perverted old white men were racists and misogynsts. But they all assiduously build up scholarly institutions, which though had racist and neo-colonial outlooks, acted as launchpad to accumulate wisdom. This later led to innovation in everything that khan pioneered, including massive consumer oriented production. Heck, khan invented modern mass production for its own purpose - world domination using innovation. Not germany. Not UK. If Cheen thinks it can outbeat US in that particular department, then Cheen is fighting a ninja at night, after smearing some dark ointment that the ninja himself has sold as "invisibility powder". Cheen wont know if it is pepper paste or flourescence paste. To give aural (screams) and visual targets (glowing balls) to the ninja. Or both.

Sherman tank is a wrong example. whether it worked or not did not matter after the point when B-17s could cross the atlantic base itself in UQistan and bomb Dresden and Stuttgart. The Germans did not have the institutions to figure out a way to challenge to the assembly lines in Ohio and Cincinnati. They had fantastic intellectuals, but most of them were under the aura of the invincibility of Prussian General Staff, if not the nazis

Anyways, like I said earlier, Japan is the right comparision - nonWASP country who tried to best the west, but got shafted, due to lack of attractiveness beyond its own boundaries. Heck, the pre-war japanese had much wider intellectual circles than the CMC has at this point! Though they too suffered from their own version of Prussian General Stab syndrome (over-militarized thinking)

Ultimately, attracting and accumulating massive droves of intellectuals in your institutions matters a lot. India used to do that in the past, China not so much. Khan is the only one who did it after India in history, but unlike India, they used it for world dominition and is still going strong. I strongly believe India is at the cusp of attracting intellect and once we start attracting more solid peoples than "summer interns at admired company" (PR excersizes), we are truly on the mend. China, on the other hand has limitations imposed by Mao legacy - there is nothing much to learn for a foreign national, since Mao was parroting a lot of what he learned in Paris and every chinese wears a western suit. And the Prussian General Stab syndrome is visible in all parts of the state's arms

Long post, apologies. This rape-docu type of operations need to be monitored and snuffed out

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Mar 2015 11:02

I have to disagree with that. there were ofcourse famous american advances and scientists like edison, sarnoff, westinghouse etc in the old days and some good univs, but overall in military high technology , UK and Germany were still better at the start of WW2. to some extent it was also the result of not investing enough in america for military industry between ww1 and ww2. if you compare the kit between the 3 at the start of ww2 you will see the diff.....even japan had mostly better kit like the zero vs lumbering planes that looked like a fat barrel with a dugout for the pilot.

but they were able to scale up quickly using the mass production methods developed for civilian use and large population with 100% literacy, easy access to natural resources both internally and from south america, no threat of air attacks disrupting things, a critical mass of engg and scientists....

usa and soviet union had a race at end of ww2 to snap up whatever german scientists and tech they could ... would not have been needed if germany was behind. usa for good measure even pardoned the japanese 'doctors' who carried out inhuman torture on prisoners to get their medical data.

they are nothing if not practical in how they do things and gather resources. in that I see the same in chinese system.

when enough of production moves into one location, the design eventually follows. for eg I can give the example of Foxconn who used to make network eqpt to spec for the likes of Netz and still does. but now they also sell their own brand at 5X cheaper and selling very well as people use open src or their own sw on top of that. its netz who is feeling the heat now with its vastly expensive ops in bay area and armies of sw engineers.

likewise in areas like medical eqpt which used to be a 3-4 horse gora play, cheen is coming strongly.....the fat margins of GE and Siemens will soon face the heat.

just because massa did it one way does not mean there are no other practical ways. china has going down its own road and so far have crushed all roadblocks ruthlessly.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 10 Mar 2015 11:15

singha-saar, you are comparing the end results of khan with the one-off advances of early birds (oiropean countries with colonial resources to bankroll unsustainable advancement) , not the system that allowed khan to mass produce in a sustained way. They did not ape the mass production (at that astronomic level) from anyone. Cheen on the other hand, is being handheld all the way by khan. Maybe I am naive, but something does not add up in khan's help to cheen in the past two decades.

usa and soviet union had a race at end of ww2 to snap up whatever german scientists and tech they could ... would not have been needed if germany was behind. usa for good measure even pardoned the japanese 'doctors' who carried out inhuman torture on prisoners to get their medical data.

bingo. That is one way of accumulating intellect. German/Japanese scientists (and intellectuals) seemed much more happier in US and was celebrated in the press, given plum posts etc. That attracted the rest of fence-sitters. They were already attracting talent from oirope in the 30s, but by 50s, it became a deluge and the flow has not stopped. The Soviets fumbled and other than dour western-marxist types, no long queues outside USSR embassies of students who want to "do research on dark matter" at Vladivostok

China? nothing yet, other than victories in geek events and appointing engineers from Tsinghua as "leaders". One-off flashes

And China is trying an exact copy of Massa, as per your own analysis, in the previous post. I disagreed and said they went the japanese way - a bit of Prussian General Stab thrown in, in place of democracy.

Else why bring massa in at all, if China is doing things differently? And Japanese did this "crushing" with panache till the 80s too

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Mar 2015 11:21

but cheen already has a massive population. all they need is to educate them upward properly. the cheen top univs are not organized in the british army penny-packet doctrine of our IIT/IIM/NITs more on the vast scaled up zhukov doctrine of the american public univs.
japan and korea have produced lot of high tech with minimal inward immigration...they too are thickly populated.

I think around 2000, khan realized their munna had gone feral and would bite viciously if the leash were sought to be put back on.

tiananmen was a attempt to impose a colour revolution and cut it back down to size before it got too big. didnt work.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 10 Mar 2015 11:28

Singha is absolutely correct here. And this discussion really needs to go into a more prominent thread than disappear inside Nukkad.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 10 Mar 2015 11:31

Japan and Korea matters not, beyond geek-dom. They are competent countries, whom I admire greatly, but they are not going to lead the world to a better place like India can. khan is the only benchmark India need to cross. And that needs to be done, not by crushing, but by outmarching khan

Tianenmen wont work again for CMC. Cheen knows that. Khan knows that cheen knows it, but khan might be holding back because of corporate greed. Or might be for the right Muntho Dhalo moment ("allow stockpile to build up, then drop LGB")..... Cheen might be devising ways to diffuse it. But their current way of limited representative governance, does not allow a lot of options in such situations.
eg: Power sharing with a challenger of state, via fig-leaf of elections et al

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 10 Mar 2015 11:34

Suraj-saar, which part? I agree 400% with him in parts, 100% on some and less for others.....

(nukkad is getting LSD-ed !!)

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 10 Mar 2015 12:05

hnair wrote:Suraj-saar, which part? I agree 400% with him in parts, 100% on some and less for others.....
(nukkad is getting LSD-ed !!)

The US pioneered production at scale, but the cutting edge of technology was a European preserve for a long time until the US gained traction and overtook them around the time of WW2. Back then the US assiduously sought to obtain and limit patent validity to within its own shores, building up its own patent base, or resorting to dubious means like the spoils of war in the form of Operation Paperclip.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Mar 2015 12:20

I meant in terms of building scale, soaking up all forms of technology, 'cloning', being economical with truth and morals in inconvenient areas, keeping the media on a leash - both cheen and US have followed parallel tracks . ofcourse in media the US acts with more finesse but the leash is there.

in terms of being a immigrant magnet for highly skilled people the US has taken that path, partly due to its own relatively small population vs the scale of its univ system. no matter how much you whip a class of people, there are going to be only so many top notch performers in the lot. japan and soko have taken the approach of making do with whatever is available at A1 level. US has sought to expand and supplement its domestic A1 with any number of foreign A1s. China if it raises the level of its education to a high enough level has enough raw materials to statistically have enough domestic fissile material grade A1 (so does india...). so Cheen need not be a immigrant magnet if they chose not to. but they already are in terms of japanese, taiwanese and koreans being there to manage offshore ops and will be more so in future. a lot of american kids are learning mandarin to take advantage of these future opportunities on the mainland. its not considered a 'shame' thing, but something to brag about by american parents..they are nothing if not practical in grabbing opportunities. no dharmic delimma there.

so we have these two oversized pit bulls fighting for the throne of the King Dog. the fight will last for decades probably.

and then we have India, a dharmic mongrel of sorts, follower of Yudhisthira to the high himalaya, still wondering if its worth it to take a stab at #3 in the totem pole given the dharmic costs it entails. will UK and germany be offended for instance if we gingerly step over their sleeping bodies? can we do it without some cost in environmental degradation? can we apply american labour benefits right now?

it needs a Tirthankara - a shower of The Path, or Krishna...to explain and clarify these dharmic questions until no doubts remain and the mass of people start marching to 'war'

good thing is Namo's mind is clear...but we need him guiding the chariot through the dark night for 20 more years..will he be unseated no one knows, but all are sure to try very hard for that.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 10 Mar 2015 12:22

Ah ok. If you read my notes above, I agree 400% with that part, but with caveat - sustainability.

Oirope had a tough time sustaining it, sans colonial backup. While khan do not have issues till date, thanks to the inflow of talent and deep insights in capital raising. IMO, despite our memories of "long colonialism", the Oiro primacy lasted less than a century and even then it was successfully contested by khan since late 1800s. Khan's new methods of raising private capital seem to have mitigated the lack of colonial plunder, as well as provide a model for more flexible MNCs, unlike the oiro ones of that era.

I just posted on the Philosopher's Ships in the Politics dhaga. Remembered that sordid episode suddenly!

(btw, these are random thoughts. Pardonnez moi for the jumbled format)

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Mar 2015 12:26

yes khan is master at finding new ways of raising capital and deploying it efficiently. not just the startup idea, but crowd funding via kickstarter type outfits. thats all many small ideas need.

they are also absolute masters at marketing, packaging and branding. they could take any idea or pile of poo and sell it at a high premium anywhere.

they are jedi high council level masters at psyops and subliminal messaging too.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 10 Mar 2015 12:26

No colonial plunder by Amirkhan ? 90% of khan territory is permanently colonized and settled territory onlee...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Mar 2015 12:28

khan was built atop the destruction of two civilizations.
- the land of the native indian, continental in size and resources
- west africa was ravaged by the slave trade for cheap labour to work the american south. else the climate made it fairly unviable to import large nos of euro peasants there. not until the invention of the AC was the american south settled on a mass scale. the euro peasant farmers spread out in a belt from the east coast to the great lakes in much more temperate belt..the swedish, dutch, germanic, irish peasants. hispanic immigration was restricted or banned until much later.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 10 Mar 2015 12:33

Suraj, touche

- meant oiro-style "extra-territorial expeditionary colonial plunder" vs "frontier style colonial plunder"
(since we are doing relative-to-each other analysis)

But we digress and back to original argument, neither khan nor cheen model (a revised japanese model) are not going to get us to lead the world

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 10 Mar 2015 12:36

What difference does that make ? If anything, Oiro just demonstrated the same lack of ability to scale up and make their colonial control permanent, except in Aus/NZ and to a lesser extent SA.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 10 Mar 2015 12:41

Suraj, I think we are digressing - the original argument of Singha was China is following a US' model of "copy, scale and flourish". I said at that time that is not the case, due to sustainability issues, is a wrong model to copy and still do.

(the discussions started off as a sterile one, but now it is not. I have a lot to say about the US' founding father types, native americans et al. But that has nothing to do with CHina or us having to dhoti shiver)

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 10 Mar 2015 12:55

The US did copy a lot. There simply wasn't the internet and a western dominated world coverage press to report it all the way they do now. The US relationship with intellectual property is very much a self serving one.

negi · Post by **negi** » 10 Mar 2015 13:02

US was in perfect position to absorb(copy) tech during the WW-II , it's industrial machinery was beyond the range of axis powers so they got stuff like Radar and fighter engine tech from UK, range of gizmos like V-1, V-2s and Me-262 and lot of hardware from Germany along with captured scientists who were more than willing to comply and work for amreeka . The scientific community around the globe in fact got united and worked overtime to get the Manhattan project deliver results within the stipulated time. 80-90% of their industrial base is all based on technology absorbed during that era. After the WW-II while most of the EU and APAC had to spend time in re-building America merely had to consolidate it's position for they had not lost much aside from men and some equipment.

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 10 Mar 2015 13:18

Read the book 'Bad Samaritans' to understand how the west stole IP to build its industry.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Mar 2015 14:24

while doing some reading on LSD found the link to aldous huxley and his book http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brave_New_World

these are not the kind of books one would be attracted to as a teenager , or even a young adult...but older, wiser, more battle scarred men who have seen the evil in this world will probably find this a compelling read.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 10 Mar 2015 14:37

There should be no compunction in stealing ip. It is our birthright.. Ruskies and khan stole from each other..there were well known differences in nomenclature of Trans uranium elements.. (eg "kurchatovium" or "rutherfordium"..

There is a lot of evidence to suggest western promiscuity w.r.t ipr.

Only reason why they got ahead is because we were in pretty poor shape for the last 400 years or so..

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 10 Mar 2015 15:54

I said "accumulation of intellectuals", over the years is a highly achievable goal, not whether "Is khan IPR fake ?". The creation of a positive spiral for intellectuals to anchor in India is achievable and do not have to follow the chinese or khan model. Heck, those pale-skinned chappies over at Vizag SBC are something that we had

endlessly, when China did it as "coldwar scientists working in secret labs at Harbin". The difference is no one in bearland or khanland or oirope is

when we did it. Then there is that famous phone call to Patuxant River, that gave Shakeela thighs for the NLCA. Did the trick as much as sending Mr Goldstein Chinnaswamy Ganguly to rifle through files by torchlight in the Pentagon, didnt it?

THAT is the model we should explore further, not the model that gets a Noshir Gowadia into jail. Get inside, learn, pick, choose, improve and start running on our own. All in the open

Anyways, enough from me on this. Summary: I refuse to dhoti shiver over a few engineering geeks from Tsinghua, doing a decent job as an overseer. I think they made a lot of bad decisions, that curtailed their potential

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 10 Mar 2015 16:16

gakakkad, I think US uses the term IP, as a way to coerce the world into their own system of control. In this system, IP means nothing, unless you can monetize it. And khan has an easy to plug-in framework to monetize IP, that is attractive to the entire world. I believe that system was put in place at the frontier towns (claims offices) and scaled up by rail-robber barons to their benefit. JP Morgan took it to the next level at wall street and Ford into industry. It continues to this day, with the whole IPO fad being used to entice intellectuals to migrate. Intellectuals from around the world find it very, very attractive, since it keeps the aluminium pressure-cooker whistling at the hearth on a daily basis (and later on, the promise of a french-maid to deal with the cooking

).

A lot of times, this IP system is used to beat other people who might have reached the same conclusions, by using state power. That is the dark side of IP system, that further coerces intellectuals to plug on to the system, "the right way"

If there is no rigid IP and people started getting "inspired" off each other, khan will scramble all the forces at its disposal. So it has to be subtle. I once had a long chat with the gents who did the N-a pster disruption for music industry. They were shell-shocked (In 2005, years later) at the ferociousness of the attack on them. They were scrambling to make it fit-in to the system, but they were trying to drive a square peg into a stone-wall. Failed to do a decent exit. Here is what I am trying to reach at: India can and should make the current IP system ineffective. It is loaded against the rest of the world and is EIC Ver3.0. But first, a good DMZ for intellectuals to lead a H&D life should be figured out. In olden days, the mutt-systems of India ensured that. We should figure out what kept a H-class around in India. Instead what I see around is the cliche statement "we should innovate" from the top down, which means nothing but plugging back into the khan-led system.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 10 Mar 2015 16:24

Singha-saar, incase you havent, please do check out the "Beat Generation" authors and artists. Lays out some thoughts on khanland, which are considered outrageous in more conservative circles. But they wrote well and became very influential in khanland. Defined a lot of the non-conservative elites.

.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Mar 2015 06:16

Thread to discuss how the West and the Soviets rose up in technology.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 11 Mar 2015 09:26

Gurujis,

Are there any books that detail how US and Soviet technology, especially space and aviation, was influenced by the german scientists who were captured by the soviets and the US towards the end of the WW11.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 11 Mar 2015 13:44

Gents,
Could we throw in medicine & pharma too.
It baffles me how Europeans living in temperate zones ( less bio-diversity) could come up with so many formulations when colonized areas liveing in tropical and sub-tropical areas ( having much much greater bio-diversity) couldn't capitalize on it.

csaurabh · Post by **csaurabh** » 11 Mar 2015 14:16

chetak wrote:Gurujis,

Are there any books that detail how US and Soviet technology, especially space and aviation, was influenced by the german scientists who were captured by the soviets and the US towards the end of the WW11.

Well I have read 4 books on Apollo Mission, ESA, Soyuz from a library ( may be hard to get ). All of them say the same thing: the A4 rocket ( also known as V2 ) developed by German engineers under Von Braun served as the model for the American, European and Russian space launcher/ballistic missile programmes ( and later Chinese too, after Russians passed it on to them ). There was a mad rush to acquire this technology by all the powers at the end of WW2 - some got the scientists ( mostly Americans ), some got the equipment and facilities ( mostly Russians ).

panduranghari · Post by **panduranghari** » 11 Mar 2015 14:19

hnair saar, your thoughts on this thread echo mine. Only you have put them in words far better than I could.

Neela wrote:Gents,
Could we throw in medicine & pharma too.
It baffles me how Europeans living in temperate zones ( less bio-diversity) could come up with so many formulations when colonized areas liveing in tropical and sub-tropical areas ( having much much greater bio-diversity) couldn't capitalize on it.

Well isn't (western) medicine a scam? It may not appear one but its mimics one for sure.

Check out Norman Doidge. He is talking in terms of how brain is plastic. How it can remodel itself when traumatised. How energy finds different conduits to reach the parts of brain which the usual conduits cannot function due to wasting or trauma.

I juxtapose this to breathing exercises of Yog to accupuncture which the western models roll their eyes because their MODELS cannot explain the improvements brought about by those modalities. Just because a particular therapy cannot be explained by a double blind randomised controlled clinical trial does not make it any poorer than one that can.

The western models are compartmentalised and unlike an Indian mind which finds it easy to mix and match what suits us best, they find this going against their ordered living and thinking.

Western medicine is good for coming to a diagnosis. But its poor at providing treatments. Surgical or drug induced changes in the energy of the body cells is just one aspect of healthcare. It will be our loss if we do not start introducing our heritage healthcare models into modern teaching.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 11 Mar 2015 19:02

More appropriate wrt 'Make in India' type of initiative and then private sector taking part in defense more with time. Also, wrt medicine/pharma sector, long time back on some thread I did read how nomenclature of plants/animals was copied form India and then, under some edict, only the new nomenclature was considered appropriate. Such posts must not be left in nukkad thread. That probably can also explain how Europeans came up with so many formulations suddenly, while plainly claiming that colonized were barbarians only and devoid of any nomenclature and understanding. Then there was another post about pre-colonial India trading in herbal medicine with Europe that was passed off as mere trade in raw materials only - in comparison Araps had opium trade and still call themselves most civilized onlee.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Mar 2015 07:57

If you can find it jus report i and will transfer it.

Meanwhile spinster spends this

How the West was fun(ded)

"Guns Germs and Steal"

( the first one is word Play on the movie How the West was won"
Second is on the book
Guns Germs nd Steel by Jared Diamond.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 12 Mar 2015 09:42

Neela wrote:Gents,
Could we throw in medicine & pharma too.
It baffles me how Europeans living in temperate zones ( less bio-diversity) could come up with so many formulations when colonized areas liveing in tropical and sub-tropical areas ( having much much greater bio-diversity) couldn't capitalize on it.

Dutch already documented the flora of Kerala by 17th century. No one knows if samples were also taken away, most probably yes. That would have given them ideas long time back itself

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hortus_Malabaricus

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 12 Mar 2015 10:12

csaurabh wrote:
chetak wrote:Gurujis,

Are there any books that detail how US and Soviet technology, especially space and aviation, was influenced by the german scientists who were captured by the soviets and the US towards the end of the WW11.
Well I have read 4 books on Apollo Mission, ESA, Soyuz from a library ( may be hard to get ). All of them say the same thing: the A4 rocket ( also known as V2 ) developed by German engineers under Von Braun served as the model for the American, European and Russian space launcher/ballistic missile programmes ( and later Chinese too, after Russians passed it on to them ). There was a mad rush to acquire this technology by all the powers at the end of WW2 - some got the scientists ( mostly Americans ), some got the equipment and facilities ( mostly Russians ).

Would you remember the names of the books?

Of interest would be how one lot went solid fuel while the other lot went liquid fuel and the influence of the concerned german scientists on the technology adapted by each nation.

The post war development of aircraft also saw deep german influence on the development of both soviet and amreki aircraft programs. Are these documented in any of the books available??

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 13 Mar 2015 01:23

Singha wrote:khan was built atop the destruction of two civilizations.
- the land of the native indian, continental in size and resources
- west africa was ravaged by the slave trade for cheap labour to work the american south. else the climate made it fairly unviable to import large nos of euro peasants there. not until the invention of the AC was the american south settled on a mass scale. the euro peasant farmers spread out in a belt from the east coast to the great lakes in much more temperate belt..the swedish, dutch, germanic, irish peasants. hispanic immigration was restricted or banned until much later.

I would make that 3+ empires: Add the successor state of the combined Aztec-Maya-Inca empires. Khan's prosperity today is directly tied to the serf-like penury of the descendants of Cuahatemoc and Tupac Amaru.

When you plunder an empire you get vast riches, both material and intangible.