IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Mar 2016 10:31

"Attractive"..to whom? Is the gap in cost a "bridge too far?"
http://idrw.org/france-reproposes-attra ... fale-deal/

France Reproposes ‘Attractive’ Rafale Deal
Published March 10, 2016
SOURCE: EXPRESS NEWS SERVICE

In a bid to break the ongoing impasse on the Rafale fighter jet deal, a high-level delegation of Indian and French officials met in the South Block on Wednesday afternoon. The Price Negotiation Committee formed to work out modalities on the 36 Rafale warplanes has not been able to conclude its task as it has not been able to strike a compromise.

Thirty-six nuclear-capable Rafale jets will be delivered to India in fly-away condition, fitted with weapon systems, such as array radar, high end beyond-visual-range missiles and defensive weapon systems. The deal will also include a support and maintenance package with the manufacturer, Dassault. The Indo-French High Committee on defence cooperation meeting scheduled for March 9, 10 was chaired by the Defence Secretary G Mohan Kumar. Defence industry, procurement and research technology were the areas that were focussed. The status of several defence deals between the two nations was also discussed, including the Rafale jet and Short Range Surface to Air Missile joint development.

“During the meeting, it was believed that French authorities gave a fresh proposal with amendments to make the Rafale deal more attractive. The Indian side is examining the proposal,” an officer said. According to a top Defence Ministry official privy to the development, India is targeting a cost between `65-68,000 crore (8 billion Euros) for 36 Rafale fighter jets. However, on the other side, Dassault, which manufactures the aircraft has quoted a whopping figure of the nearly 90,000 crore (12 billion Euros).

As a compromise was not reached, the deal could not be inked during French President Hollande’s visit to New Delhi last month during Republic Day celebrations. It only dashed the hopes of the IAF, which is struggling to cope with its depleting fleet strength, but also caused embarrassment to New Delhi as no major announcement was made during the meeting of the top political leadership of both countries. In a joint statement on 25 January, Prime Minister Narendra Modi and French President Hollande had hoped to sort out the financial aspects in ‘couple of days’. Even Dassault Aviation had said it expected a complete agreement in four weeks.

member_29294 · Post by **member_29294** » 11 Mar 2016 07:03

I have begun to feel that the longer this circus goes on the better for the long-term.

IAF surely must realize by now that they can only go indigenous to meet their requirements.

Hopefully another Tejas line is sanctioned by the end of the year.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Mar 2016 09:06

Dassault Says It's Close to Rafale Deal With India

PARIS — Dassault Aviation is in the “final phase” of price negotiations with India for 36 Rafale fighters, with the company in talks with potential local partners to build a hoped-for 90 more units, chairman Eric Trappier said March 10.

“We are getting closer,” he said as the company presented 2015 results. “We are in the final phase.”

The talks continue after Trappier had in January set a four-week target, when France and India signed an intergovernmental agreement on New Delhi buying 36 fighters.

Dassault seeks to set up “a real partnership” with Indian industry rather a conventional offset, which requires investing in unrelated sectors, he said. That partnership approach would see Safran, Thales and other French suppliers working with local partners on the Rafale if New Delhi agreed the order for 36 and followed up with a further 90 units, he said. That second order was needed as the former figure was too small to justify a local build.

Dassault is waiting to see if Canada, which recently made its scheduled payment into the F-35 program, will cancel its order for the US fighter and launch a tender, Trappier said. Canadian companies have a stake in the American project, but Dassault would find local partners if there were a fresh competition.

Switzerland is now looking for a fighter to replace both the F-5 and F-18, and the multirole Rafale would meet the requirement, he said.

Saab’s Gripen won a previous competition to take over the F-5 but a public referendum led to a cancellation of that selection.

Talks on the Rafale are continuing with the United Arab Emirates, he said.

Dassault has opened an office in Belgium, which has asked for information on fighters for a planned acquisition.

Discussions continue with Malaysia, with local maintenance an option, he said. The French fighter is competing with Boeing F/A-18, Saab Gripen and Eurofighter Typhoon for an order of 18.

Dassault last year delivered five Rafales to France and three to Egypt, with a further modified three to Cairo in January. That made up the annual output of 11 units, or one a month, except for August when the assembly line closes for holiday.

Monthly output could rise to three units if India and other countries signed up for the fighter, he said. Production for Qatar starts this year.

Dassault will deliver six Rafales to France this year, falling to one in 2017. Deliveries are due to rise in 2018.

France needed export deals to be signed, allowing deliveries to the French Air Force to be postponed and funding diverted to other programs.

Trappier welcomed the March 3 announcement by Britain and France at Amiens, northern France, of the launch next year of a demonstrator project for the Future Combat Air System, an armed drone.

That “really serves to anchor” the project, leading to an operational unmanned combat air vehicle when the budget is available, he said. “We hope as early as possible,” he said.

Dassault reported 2015 net profit of €482 million (US $ 540 million), up from €398 million in the previous year, on sales of €4.2 billion, up from €3.7 billion. The profit margin was 11.5 percent of sales, up from 10.8 percent.

The company expects sales to fall this year.

Orders for the Falcon business jet halved to 45 units from 90, and the company needs to cut costs in view of the competition in the market, Trappier said.

Orders rose to €9.9 billion from €4.6 billion, boosted by the orders from Egypt and Qatar. The order backlog rose to €14.2 billion from €8.2 billion. Cash holdings rose to €2.9 billion from €2.4 billion.

The company invested €431 million of own funds in research and development, 10.3 percent of sales.

The contracts with Egypt and Qatar, and the expected deal for 36 fighters for India “have transformed the medium-term outlook for Dassault’s military aircraft business,” said a Feb. 9 stock market research note from Agency Partners.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 11 Mar 2016 10:09

I have started thinking now that all this G2G drama for chopped Rafale deal was all for nudging Egypt and Qatar and other possible countries into signing deals.

India doesnt want to buy the planes as they are too costly and France needs something in return from going through all the hassle of bidding and lobbying for all these years. Neither India would like to be seen wasting OEMs time/money /efforts in bidding and not being serious buyer. So show the world India is buying it. Gives credibility to Rafale in International market. Dassualt gets some orders. India-France play deal-no deal drama for some time and finally decide to let it rest. Win-win situation for both.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Mar 2016 11:17

Dassault: French Sale of Rafales to India Still Being Negotiated
by Thierry Dubois
- March 10, 2016, 1:59 PM

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ ... negotiated

The contract for the sale of 36 Rafale fighters to India has not yet been signed, manufacturer Dassault Aviation said March 10. Four weeks was thought to be enough time to conclude the transaction when the heads of state of France and India reached agreement on the sale in late January.

“We are getting closer; we are trying to finalize the price,” CEO Eric Trappier said during Dassault’s annual press conference, held at its Paris headquarters. The Indian government is “always wanting more” but “at some point, one has to make up his mind,” Trappier added.

Referring to the Indian government’s “Make in India” policy, Trappier said Dassault and its French partners are looking for local companies in India capable of manufacturing Rafales. Offsets are being devised to pave the way for a hoped-for 90-aircraft deal in the mid term. “It would not be worth it for them to gear up for 36 examples but it will be for 90,” he said.

Last year, two Mirage 2000s were upgraded and delivered in France to the Indian Air Force. The remaining upgrades will be performed by Hindustan Aeronautics in Bangalore, Trappier pointed out.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Mar 2016 11:21

Looks like GOI is looking to outright buy 36 Rafale and make another 90 in India , MOD Parrikar and Eric are saying the same thing , some decision will be made by end of year to make new type in India.

Either they should go full fledge for Rafale ie Lic Prod or just cancel the deal outright , No point in buying 36 and then nurse it like babies ....no point in repeating M2K mistake of 80's of not going for Lic Production

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Mar 2016 05:38

^^^

Déjà vu -- history repeating itself. There were plans to license produce 106 Mirage-2000s in the 80s but the deal proved too costly. Almost 2 decades later in 2001/2, the idea of local production of 126 Mirage-2000 was floated again, but that morphed into MRCA Rafale. Now almost 15 years later the same dilemma on costs has come up. One can expect the end results to be more or less the same.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 12 Mar 2016 08:16

India is cursed to stay a purchaser instead of becoming a producer. This deal will seal India's fate!!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Mar 2016 12:08

Rafale Rips Through Singapore Skies

http://bcove.me/nbo4zjyj

member_29245 · Post by **member_29245** » 13 Mar 2016 09:55

nirav wrote:Deal cancel.paisa nathi.

Wah gujju bhai wah

Nathi posatu

member_29245 · Post by **member_29245** » 13 Mar 2016 10:02

srai wrote:^^^

Déjà vu -- history repeating itself. There were plans to license produce 106 Mirage-2000s in the 80s but the deal proved too costly. Almost 2 decades later in 2001/2, the idea of local production of 126 Mirage-2000 was floated again, but that morphed into MRCA Rafale. Now almost 15 years later the same dilemma on costs has come up. One can expect the end results to be more or less the same.

No at that time 50-60 mirage were bought

Here even 36 rafales are doubtful

member_29245 · Post by **member_29245** » 13 Mar 2016 10:09

Gujju logic

Aavo bhai beso

Chai pani pivo
Sari sari vaato karo

Pan business ni vaat nahi karta

Tamaro bhav nathi posato

English

Hi welcome pl seat
Let's have tea snacks and talk shop

But pl don't discuss business your prices are prohibitive

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Mar 2016 11:08

For better or worse the current GOI believes in hard bargaining may be till the point of last naya paisa .....also a trait of Gujus

If that leads to better deal for India then its all welcome but we should not loose sight on the time and opportunity lost in such hard bargaining.

Lots of deals which were on verge of getting signed is lost some where perhaps for the same reason Chinook,Apache , FGFA , Artillery , A330 MRTA etc just to name a few but to its credit many indiginous system have received huge orders and some of the already procured systems in service from abroad are getting green light at much better pace then any new deal.

Ajai Shukla has listed the projects for armed forces under negotiation and the list is huge if not complete ...only few will get the greenlight in the next 2 years at the rate GOI is negotiating

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2016/02/d ... ality.html

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 14 Mar 2016 20:37

Latest from Ajai Shukla:

Rafale fighter Jet deal in trouble: Here's why French govt is shirking liability

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 14 Mar 2016 22:19

Law Ministry redflags liability issues in Rafale deal.

The multi-billion dollar deal for purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets from France has run into legal issues.

Despite claims to the contrary by government functionaries, including Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar, even the preliminary agreement is not a done deal, official documents accessed by The Indian Express show. While pricing continues to be a bone of contention, Indian officials have also raised questions over key clauses, including liability of Paris in case of any shortfall in implementation of the deal, being heavily loaded in favour of the French.

The refusal of the French government to give any bankclauses, including liability of Paris in case of any shortfall in implementation of the deal, being heavily loaded in favour of the French.

The refusal of the French government to give any bank guarantees also remains a major issue. France has instead offered to provide a “comfort letter” from its prime minister.

Sources said since the contract involves huge pay-outs without actual delivery, this is a matter of concern. In the past, the practice has been submission of adequate government/ sovereign guarantees.

During French President François Hollande’s visit in January as chief guest at the Republic Day parade, both India and France had claimed that the deal for purchase of the 36 fighter jets was almost finalised, with Delhi saying that “only the financial aspects” were left to be sorted.

In the hurry to conclude the deal during the high-profile visit, several loopholes were appararently overlooked. Sources said the Union Law Ministry has now strongly red-flagged key issues.

The Defence Ministry refused to respond to a detailed questionnaire sent by The Indian Express, with its spokesperson saying, “The MoD doesn’t react to issues which are being discussed between two governments.”

Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s direct intervention and dialogue with French President Francois Hollande was believed to have led to the thaw in the deadlock in the Rafale jets deal.

In November 2015, before he left for COP-21 climate conference in Paris, Modi had spoken with Hollande and convinced the French President to agree to a 50-per cent offset clause, a Defence Ministry official had told The Indian Express. While 30 per cent offset clause is mandatory in defence contracts of the quantum of the Rafale deal, an exception of 50 per cent was made in line with the earlier Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal, which was cancelled.

A senior officer involved with the matter said, “While many senior government functionaries, including those in the Ministry of Defence, have favoured out-of-box thinking to take the deal forward, when we examined the draft Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) and the draft Supply Protocols, we were left wondering as to how could India agree to all the stipulations suggested by the French side. In our opinion, the two documents were not drafted with the interest of the Government of India in mind. Many suggestions have been forwarded. But it is for the Prime Minister’s Office and the Defence Ministry to take a final view.”

The Law Ministry has objected to the watered-down liability clause, to be signed by the French government and the two French suppliers. The Defence Ministry has been advised that unless there is a joint and severe liability clause, India’s interests would remain compromised.

Law Ministry officials have also redflagged the clause in the IGA that in case of material breach by French companies of their obligations under the Supply Protocols, the Indian side would first take recourse to legal route against the companies without involving the French government.

While the initial agreement provides that in case of any dispute, arbitration proceedings can be initiated in Geneva (Switzerland), the Ministry of Defence has been advised that the seat of arbitration be in India, especially since the government hopes to turn India into a hub for international arbitration.

srai · Post by **srai** » 15 Mar 2016 03:12

^^^

So much for the French (and Indian DDM) scapegoating HAL originally for its stance on "OEM guarantee clause". In the past, Russians have taken advantage of lack of liability clauses (or OEM favorable ones). They have delayed ToT and in some cases backtracked without any penalties. This is often done to delay Indian part of the workshare so that they get back more of the workshare. The other issues are product quality and support, which the Russians are not known for, but the OEMs are great at twisting it so that the blame goes to Indian companies. In the end, the exporters are really looking out for themselves.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 15 Mar 2016 10:24

I recall news reports stating that the French were asking details of such a contract signed with Russia for the liabilities..

If they wanted the Russian contract as a template, they should also offer Russian pricing.
The loss of 126+ options Rafale is solely on Dassaults intransigence.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 Mar 2016 10:45

Russian pricing!

One Raffy is the equiv of 5-6 MIG-29/35s or at least 2 MKIs.With the Russians swiftly setting up JV service centres for mil. ept. in India ,the often quoted issue of after sales service will decrease and the stark contrast from the pricing viewpoint will make it impossible for deals like the Raffy to go through. It is the IAF that is really in sh*t street.It HAS to work out a Plan B,C whatever so that it does not come out with statemetns about not being able to fight a combined JV from China and Pak.
The asinine statements earlier that there was no "Plan B",should've been immediately shot down by the MOD at that time. If you can't afford a Roll,s you must buy something more affordable.

member_29245 · Post by **member_29245** » 16 Mar 2016 17:54

Rafael deal happening or not happening ?

vinod · Post by **vinod** » 16 Mar 2016 18:43

Screw the damn Rafael deal and go for plan B, but keep the French negotiating till the plan B is fully in place!

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 16 Mar 2016 19:20

F-18's with AESA and if we get deep TOT on engines or MIG-35's (repackaged MIG-29's) if we get smokeless engines and if price is not more then $40 Mil a pop.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 16 Mar 2016 19:25

smokeless engines

From Powerplant of Mig-35

In response to earlier criticism, the new engines are smokeless and include systems that reduce infrared and optical visibility.

Read it all.

The engines may be fitted with vectored-thrust nozzles, which would result an increase in combat efficiency by 12% to 15%

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Mar 2016 19:57

Vishvak, see MiG-35 videos and its hardly smokeless.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 16 Mar 2016 21:53

Karan M wrote:Vishvak, see MiG-35 videos and its hardly smokeless.

I think the point is more about reducing/concealing exhaust signature in some way. See TFTA promotional video. link. Going OT now.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Mar 2016 22:01

How can the exhaust or signature reduced when the amount of smoke is still high.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 17 Mar 2016 05:45

Karan M wrote:How can the exhaust or signature reduced when the amount of smoke is still high.

Isnt IR signature more to do with heat than smoke? IIRC, even TFTA F22 smokes in certain regimes although the 35 indeed does smoke a bit generously (nowhere a bad as the original RD33s though)

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Mar 2016 11:32

Mass Producing this TFTA version of F-16 in India would be a Great Choice , Single Engine , Well Produce , Cost Effective Choice

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 17 Mar 2016 12:00

^^^ Maybe if they stop gifting them to Pakistan and stop supporting the Pakistani F-16 fleet

They can try selling them to Vietnam

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Mar 2016 12:31

Cain Marko wrote:
Karan M wrote:How can the exhaust or signature reduced when the amount of smoke is still high.
Isnt IR signature more to do with heat than smoke? IIRC, even TFTA F22 smokes in certain regimes although the 35 indeed does smoke a bit generously (nowhere a bad as the original RD33s though)

there is another angle to this ... high bypass turbofan engines (modern fighter engines too in this bucket) have a lower exit temp and leave more contrails while older low-bypass/turbojet less.
visual stealth is affected here if someone is cruising with radar off for em silence..contrails will be easily spotted in daylight

http://contrailscience.com/why-do-some- ... hers-dont/

I am sure fighter engine makers have studied this issue deeply

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 17 Mar 2016 13:02

Singha wrote:...

there is another angle to this ... high bypass turbofan engines (modern fighter engines too in this bucket) have a lower exit temp and leave more contrails while older low-bypass/turbojet less.
visual stealth is affected here if someone is cruising with radar off for em silence..contrails will be easily spotted in daylight

http://contrailscience.com/why-do-some- ... hers-dont/

I am sure fighter engine makers have studied this issue deeply

One of the things with Contrails is that there is a specific height band which varies with temperature variance where contrails are formed. Fighters have to avoid this band to avoid visual spotting. The minimum level is Mintra level above which contrails may or may not form and max level is Maxtra level or Drytra level above which contrails will not form.
[url]http://aviation_dictionary.enacademic.com/4562/MINTRA_mintra_level[/url]

These have been standard part of Met briefing at every flying base for a very long time.

KBDagha · Post by **KBDagha** » 17 Mar 2016 13:47

India may not buy Rafale: French official

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2016/03/i ... icial.html

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 17 Mar 2016 14:05

One would expect an F-16 offer since Lockheed acknowledged just yesterday that they are spending their own money to keep it alive. Offers come and go, but its hard to justify even a serious look at an F-16 when the LCA is right around the corner. If they decide to ditch the Rafale (a big if), and still want a western fighter, the F-18E/F, with upgraded engines may just be the best option since Boeing will be in about 2 years, in the same position as Lockheed is today i.e. a retiring line without customers. The only other western aircraft I can think of is the Gripen E, but it would most likely come in more expensive, when all is said and done given its still technically in development.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 17 Mar 2016 15:01

brar_w wrote:One would expect an F-16 offer since Lockheed acknowledged just yesterday that they are spending their own money to keep it alive. Offers come and go, but its hard to justify even a serious look at an F-16 when the LCA is right around the corner. If they decide to ditch the Rafale (a big if), and still want a western fighter, the F-18E/F, with upgraded engines may just be the best option since Boeing will be in about 2 years, in the same position as Lockheed is today i.e. a retiring line without customers. The only other western aircraft I can think of is the Gripen E, but it would most likely come in more expensive, when all is said and done given its still technically in development.

Brar warriror, me thinks F - 18E/F is a serious proposition. Apart from the Shri Parrikar's US visit where F 18's were mentioned, I have seen Boeing employees on LinkedIn exchanging posts on the shifting of F 18 lines to India (though, they were only quoting press sources.)

Apart from that, F 18 family has a naval version which has a potential for future aircraft carrier etc. However, on this Navy sources will have to confirm the inclination.

A definitely plus is the price point of F 18 (in comparison to Rafale) though the worries on high altitude performance remain.

Between the IAF push for MMRCA type aircraft, present GOI's Make in India campaign and GOTUS push for strategic alliance partnership with India, there is definitely a business case for a US fighter line in India and between the 16's and 18's the F 18's appear to be a favourite. Deal sweeteners will probably hasten the decisions - killing of the Rafale alternative and a US fighter at least in the IAF Livery.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 17 Mar 2016 15:04

^^^ modern equivalent of shifting the ambassador and fiat padmini lines to india...

srai · Post by **srai** » 17 Mar 2016 15:05

How long would another round of negotiation take for a new type? 3-years? 5-years? 10-years?

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 17 Mar 2016 15:18

Lalmohan wrote: ^^^ modern equivalent of shifting the ambassador and fiat padmini lines to india...

As long as IAF is able to justify the MMRCA to MoD, this noise will continue. The justification other than 'Operational Tactics' is broadly on aircraft number fulfillment between aircraft in production (including Tejas) and aircraft in design stage (like FGFA & AMCA). Numbers going forward if the under development aircraft are delayed need to be above a critical minimum (I am guessing here but I am sure there is a bottom number).

The time frame for negotiations can change when staring at the wrong end of the barrel. MMRCA or it earlier version of M2Ks were an identified need somewhere in 2003/04. 12 years down the line that need has not diminished. Present Sqn nos. are in the red zone if folks do not realize.

HAL is taking forever in getting the production of Tejas going. If HAL has any love for Tejas it should expedite and give GOI some alternatives when dealing with the IAF falling nos. driving the need to import fresh aircraft from abroad.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 Mar 2016 15:27

>>Isnt IR signature more to do with heat than smoke? IIRC, even TFTA F22 smokes in certain regimes although the 35 indeed does smoke a bit generously (nowhere a bad as the original RD33s though)

Smoke = incomplete combustion and lot of high temp particulates. F22 PW119 hardly smokes anywhere near the level of RD-33..

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 Mar 2016 15:30

KBDagha wrote:India may not buy Rafale: French official

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2016/03/i ... icial.html

Qtiyapa ki had...

Underlining the irritation at repeated US offers to set up an assembly line in India to build the American F-16 Super Viper, the French official taunted: “If you don’t want the Rafale, go ahead and build the F-16 here. You can build it in India and supply it to Pakistan also.”

He was referring to Washington’s announcement last month of the sale to Pakistan of eight advanced Block 50/52 F-16 fighters for $699 million. Simultaneously, a senior Lockheed Martin official had publicly offered to “move our [F-16] production line from the US to India.”

Reminded that France too was supplying submarines to both India and Pakistan (DCNS is building six Scorpenes submarines with Mazagon Dock, after earlier selling Pakistan three advanced Agosta-90B submarines with air independent propulsion), he retorted, “That is different. Pakistan is getting a different submarine from what we are providing to India.”

So, India can get F-18s per this French official.
Better still, 75 F-35s which will anyday be better than equivalent number of Rafales..

If we have do chamchagiri, best ask for the best munna toys.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 17 Mar 2016 15:44

Almost any engine will smoke at low altitudes when you are constantly tinkering with the throttle as would be the case in a display. The problem with the older migs were that they smoked all the time, even at a decent altitude and level flight.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 17 Mar 2016 15:44

^^^ KaranM, the best aircraft for the MMRCA needs remains Su 30. Unfortunately, that is not in favour among the decision makers. JMT.