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Pratyush wrote: ↑05 Mar 2024 21:29
The K2 was a different design. It had not much in common with the K1.
The Arjun is the reason why I have no confidence in the Indian Army's ability to manage FRCV.
Yes, they learnt the basics of the modern MBT from making the K1 and sent their designers to learn from almost all the western productions to evolve their own design.
We too developed the Arjun based on our requirement and didn't blindly copy the Leopard
The T-90 and its variants, equipped with a powerful 1000+ hp V12 diesel engines, the 2A46 125mm smooth bore gun, composite armour and other modifications by variant, was a much feared bulwark of Russia’s army. So what’s gone wrong?
Not for this thread but Indian armour needs a revamp ..it is now one of the biggest tank forces in Asia relying almost exclusively on the t(incan) series
drnayar wrote: ↑09 Mar 2024 08:47
Not for this thread but Indian armour needs a revamp ..it is now one of the biggest tank forces in Asia relying almost exclusively on the t(incan) series
Based on what evidence is T90 now being called a "tincan"? If you look at what's happening in Ukraine, every Western tank deserves to be called a tincan. Leopard, Challenger, Leclerc, Abrams -- all have been left in flaming ruins on the battlefield. Russians openly snicker at the Abrams, calling it a "flaming tincan" (no doubt they are exaggerating the Abrams problems, but facts are facts -- no Western tank has had any positive effect on the battlefield. All have failed miserably, in the light of the bloviating bombast being peddled in Western capitals six / nine / twelve months ago).
The USSR origin armour is called tin cans because of the extremely poor armour protection along with inherent design defects. Because of political directives from Kruschev during the mid 1960s.
The irony is that the red army senior armour officers understood the weakness of the existing armour force.
In order to overcome the weakness of the existing armour fleet, they came up with a series of exteamly innovative designs, that were well armored and we'll protected. In the 60 to 70 ton class.
The Armata is a direct design descendent of one such effort.
WRT, the last generation of western armour. It was designed arround a series of technological breakthroughs in armour, FCS, optics, and the lessons learnt from the 1973, Arab -Israeli war.
Second, no tank is indestructible. Especially, when it's used as poorly as both the Russians and Ukrainians are using armour.
During the vaunted Ukrainian counter offensive. The Leopards were deployed in small quantities and without sufficient mine clearing assets. That in turn resulted in the vehicles bunching up and being exposed to coordinated ATGM assaults.
No armour force can prevail under such circumstances.
Given the terrai. In Ukraine, Western tanks facing able Russian soldiers have a difficulty. Other than Arab armies in Desert areas, Western weapons have many deficiencies just like Russian weapons have deficiencies, its horses for courses, the Army seems to want Arjun only for Desert areas mainly to attack fortifications with the HESH rounds, otherwise rifled gun and small orders make no sense. We need 3 categories of Tanks, light tanks for the mountains, medium Tank for the plains with slushy ground where smaller silhouettes with smaller engagement ranges, heavy tank with long engagement ranges for open Deserts.
Since T series fit the medium category the import lobby happily imported many of these with it's deficiencies and order a few Arjuns for the Desert. Atleast Zorawar for the mountains seems to be good effort.
The mobility of a tank is defined by its power to weight ratio, suspension, along with the ground pressure in PSI.
The Arjun Mk1s specific ground pressure is about 25% lower than the tin can. As a matter of fact, the Arjun Mk2 after adding nearly 10 tons to the Mk1. Has an equal ground pressure to the tin can. A tank that is well below 50 tons.
Therefore, the argument about it's unsuitability in the Punjab sector is flawed. As is the argument about it's deployment in the desert sectors.
The argument about light tanks in the mountain region is relatively justified. But given the flat feature less terrain in the Tibetan theatre of operations. Along with the demonstrated ability of the PLA to sustain its heavy armour against the Indian T 90s in theatre. I am not so sure about the suitability of light tanks against the PLA in the Tibetan theatre of operations.
Last edited by Pratyush on 09 Mar 2024 15:53, edited 1 time in total.
According to reports, India is in the process of procuring 21 additional MiG-29s from Russia which would enable replacement of earlier losses and raise another squadron.
These would be developed and upgraded from airframes built earlier but which never entered service.
Empowering India's MiG-29 Fleet: The RD-33MK Engine Upgrade Story
Mar 6, 2024
Embark on a journey of technological advancement as India unveils its plans to upgrade the formidable MiG-29 fleet with RD-33MK engine technology.
In this video, explore the intricacies of this groundbreaking endeavor, from the collaborative efforts between India and Russia to the enhanced performance and capabilities that the RD-33MK engines promise to deliver.
Witness how this upgrade heralds a new era of air superiority for the Indian Air Force, reinforcing its combat readiness and bolstering national security.
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Roop wrote: ↑09 Mar 2024 12:36
Based on what evidence is T90 now being called a "tincan"? If you look at what's happening in Ukraine, every Western tank deserves to be called a tincan. Leopard, Challenger, Leclerc, Abrams -- all have been left in flaming ruins on the battlefield. Russians openly snicker at the Abrams, calling it a "flaming tincan" (no doubt they are exaggerating the Abrams problems, but facts are facts -- no Western tank has had any positive effect on the battlefield. All have failed miserably, in the light of the bloviating bombast being peddled in Western capitals six / nine / twelve months ago).
Does the trial report w.r.t. Arjun count as evidence? It went through CAG, right? We saw how well it did even with relaxations, for water ingress etc.
Pratyush wrote: ↑09 Mar 2024 14:47
Second, no tank is indestructible. Especially, when it's used as poorly as both the Russians and Ukrainians are using armour.
No armour force can prevail under such circumstances.
I second that. Weapons systems are only as good or effective depending on its usage and operators. This pretty much applies to any weapons systems. Nothing is indestructible or invincible. A lot of youtube clips exists on social media using words such as 'tincans' or whatever else. This exists for all the parties involved in the conflict be it Russia, Ukraine, NATO, etc. This has everything to do with social media war aimed at the skimming readers of the war news. Information Warfare is for real.
The difference between Russian and western tanks is in crew survivability. While any tank can be destroyed you will rarely see an M1 Abrams with its turret completely blown off which is fairly common in T-Series tanks. This is due to the way the ammunition is stored in the turret (around the crew) in the T-Series tanks thanks to the carousel autoloader and the lack of any blowout panels. This means when the turret takes a hit the ammunition is very likely to explode and the entire turret gets blown off instantly killing the crew. In the Abrams and other western tanks the ammunition is stored in a blast resistant container with blow out panels designed to direct the force of the explosion outwards. The Arjun Mk1A has this as well.
