Social Problems in Punjab and their Strategic Impact

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Haresh
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Re: Social Problems in Punjab and their Strategic Impact

Post by Haresh »

I visited a interesting temple yesterday, it was a joint Sikh and Hindu temple.
If someone can advise me, I will upload the photos.
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Re: Social Problems in Punjab and their Strategic Impact

Post by ramana »

If you have a Twitter account then just tweet them. And we can use the image link here.
Haresh
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Re: Social Problems in Punjab and their Strategic Impact

Post by Haresh »

Back in the UK, now and recovering from the extreme heat.

My observations from the visit and talking to various people and taking in their views were as follows

1/ Many people said to me, Punjab's govt can't build proper roads, how can they have faith in a govt that can't build roads ?

I have to admit the roads were really bad, appalling. I was in the Hoshiarpur/Phagwara area. We visited AnandPur Sahib.

2/ There was piles of building waste everywhere

3/ There was rubbish everywhere, just dumped, the place is a rubbish dump.

4/ There was no hostility between Sikh and Hindus, this is nonsense, it was just not visible.
There were caste issues, but I will cover that later.

5/ I did observe quite a lot of factory warehouse construction activity in the Patiala area as we drove in.

6/ Pretty much everyone I spoke to was making plans for at least one of their family to go abroad. There was adverts boards for immigration everywhere, IELTS courses are popular.
Quite a few of my relations are in Italy and Greece, working in agriculture, the same work they do in Punjab, only with better pay and more respect from employers. This was the due to the caste angle. The Jats pretty much treat their workers like serfs and make it clear that they own the land and have the power.

I will add other thoughts as the occur to me.

Just seen this in my email.
https://www.indiatoday.in/india-today-i ... Newsletter
ramana
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Re: Social Problems in Punjab and their Strategic Impact

Post by ramana »

Thanks haresh. Please do write the next impressions.
Haresh
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Re: Social Problems in Punjab and their Strategic Impact

Post by Haresh »

Other observations.

We visited Anandpur Sahib, there was an old poster of Bhinderenwale, very faded, must be historic.
There were quite a lot of Hindus visiting, doing the "circuit" the Naina Devi and Baba Balak Nath temple.
No issues.

When I travel, I don't do posh or luxury, 5 Star air conditioned. I like to be at ground level and just talk to ordinary people, that is where the reality is.

I was told by the driver and by others that some gaushalas had been established by the local BJP activists on the way to AnandPur Sahib from Hoshiarpur, they then told me that when they had enough cows there, they sold them to the beef industry !!! I obviously have no way of knowing if it is true.

Other thing that I noticed was that there were quite a few Peaceful types. When I asked about this I was told that entire families are leaving rural/urban Punjab for better opportunities. They either sell or just abandon their properties. The peacefuls move in !! will this cause problems in the future ?
One of the villagers told me that the peacefuls, if they want a girl, will visit her house and throw a green cloth on the gate, they will then target her.

With regards to road conditions, I was told one of the reasons they were so bad, is that when they were built by the state govt, no consideration was given to drainage, as they are built on elevated, artificially constructed compacted earth, when it rains they trap water. The farmers will then use construction equipment to cut open the road surface and create a drainage trench. The result is that over time the road will just disintegrate.
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Re: Social Problems in Punjab and their Strategic Impact

Post by Haresh »

can I email my photos of the temple to someone ?
I keep my twitter account separate.
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Re: Social Problems in Punjab and their Strategic Impact

Post by sanjayc »

One of the villagers told me that the peacefuls, if they want a girl, will visit her house and throw a green cloth on the gate, they will then target her.
This is very disturbing. Where are all the Sikh men?
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Re: Social Problems in Punjab and their Strategic Impact

Post by Haresh »

sanjayc wrote: 25 Jul 2023 16:25
One of the villagers told me that the peacefuls, if they want a girl, will visit her house and throw a green cloth on the gate, they will then target her.
This is very disturbing. Where are all the Sikh men?
They are either indifferent or have gone abroad !!!
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Re: Social Problems in Punjab and their Strategic Impact

Post by sanman »

sanman
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Re: Social Problems in Punjab and their Strategic Impact

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ramana
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Re: Social Problems in Punjab and their Strategic Impact

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Haresh wrote: 25 Jul 2023 15:17 can I email my photos of the temple to someone ?
I keep my twitter account separate.

Which temple?
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Re: Social Problems in Punjab and their Strategic Impact

Post by Cyrano »

Thank you for sharing your experiences Haresh.
Haresh
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Re: Social Problems in Punjab and their Strategic Impact

Post by Haresh »

[/quote]
Which temple?
[/quote]

I went to a joint Hindu/Sikh temple in Punjab
Haresh
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Re: Social Problems in Punjab and their Strategic Impact

Post by Haresh »

Image

I have noticed that in the Full Editor there is a button to add images/photos, however when I click on it all that appears is img img, there is no option to point to a file location to upload an image, any ideas ?
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Re: Social Problems in Punjab and their Strategic Impact

Post by Cyrano »

You need to upload somewhere first and then put the image address url between the img tags. You can't upload directly to the forum.
Haresh
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Re: Social Problems in Punjab and their Strategic Impact

Post by Haresh »

Cyrano wrote: 15 Aug 2023 15:39 You need to upload somewhere first and then put the image address url between the img tags. You can't upload directly to the forum.
OK, thanks
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Re: Social Problems in Punjab and their Strategic Impact

Post by sanjaykumar »

https://twitter.com/swati_gs/status/169 ... 23329?s=20

It’s things like this that make me think I don’t know what I am talking about when it comes to Panjab.

These khalistanis are destroying something pavitr.
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Re: Social Problems in Punjab and their Strategic Impact

Post by sanjaykumar »

Here is some more

https://twitter.com/Incognito_qfs/statu ... 56518?s=20

He makes reference to the Vedas as authority where he posits mercy as integral to dharma.
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Re: Social Problems in Punjab and their Strategic Impact

Post by ramana »

X formerly known as Twitter allows upload pictures and can link the post here.
But then requires having Twitter account.
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Re: Social Problems in Punjab and their Strategic Impact

Post by ramana »

Will post all later

https://t.co/oKzfhULY60

Link: http://www.shapcalendar.org.uk/speciale ... %20Bhatras

Britain's Sikhs

A Sikh is literally a learner or disciple, for in Punjabi sikhna means to learn. In particular, Sikh refers to a follower of the teachings of Guru Nanak (1469—1539) and his nine earthly successors. Belief in one God is fundamental. Since Guru Gobind Singh’s death in 1708 Sikhs have venerated their compilation of sacred hymns, the Granth Sahib, as Guru. Orthodoxy requires a Sikh to undergo amrit (initiation with holy water) and to observe certain rules — above all abstention from tobacco and intoxicants, from halal meat, adultery, and haircutting — and observance of the five K’s. Matching definitions such as this with the living, human reality of Sikhism however is no simple affair. It involves examining the nature of Sikh identity, whether perceived by individual Sikhs in primarily spiritual, social, or political terms. This is a burning concern within the Sikh community.

In Britain there are very few Western converts to Sikhism. They include a handful of ex-hippy followers of Yogi Bhajan, formerly Harbhajan Singh Pun, who began teaching Kundalini yoga in America in the 1970s. Otherwise it is safe to say that a Sikh is always of Punjabi origin. The state of Punjab (literally ‘five waters’) was divided by the India-Pakistan border in 1947, and the Indian portion was subdivided in 1966. Sikhs now identify particularly with this smaller Indian state of Punjab as a spiritual homeland, even if ancestral roots, like certain historic Sikh shrines, were on the western side of the national border. Punjabi is the Sikhs’ mother-tongue, and unlike Punjabi-speaking Hindus and Muslims, they take pride in the Gurmukhi script of the Guru Granth Sahib. Diet, dress and customs, including celebrations such as Lohri on 13th January, are distinctively Punjabi, the common heritage of Hindu and Sikh alike.

Britain is the home of over 300,000 of the world’s approximately 14 million Sikhs, and there are almost 200 gurdwaras in Britain. In 1908 the Khalsa Jatha was established and in 1911 a gurdwara was founded in Putney, thanks in part to the patronage of Bhupinder Singh, Maharaja of Patiala, who attended the coronation in London that year. He was not the first royal Sikh visitor to Britain. In 1854 Maharaja Dalip Singh and his cousin, Prince Shiv Dev Singh came to Britain. Subsequent Sikh settlement has been more plebeian.

According to the Gurus’ teaching one’s birth and status are irrelevant to one’s eventual union with God. However, Sikhs have, for the most part, continued to marry spouses chosen from their own zat (caste), though generally from a different got (clan) and village, so following the same conventions as Hindus from the same communities. Thus, however egalitarian the Gurus’ message and the practice of langar (corporate meal) may be, the descendants of potters, carpenters or peasant farmers have not intermarried and caste is a key factor in analysing Sikh settlement in Britain. The paradox of a theoretically casteless brotherhood, divided to some extent by caste exercises many Sikhs. It must be stressed that by using the word caste I am not attributing to Sikhs the connotations of purity and pollution and caste-specific ritual observance that the term has carried in Hinduism.

By focusing upon identifiable strands within the Sikh community I am not denying what is common to Sikhs — a shared devotion to the Guru Granth Sahib. I include Sikh-related groups as well as mainstream Sikhs in this brief survey because teachers here encounter members of these and wonder where they fit. Much background information which is of interest to teachers would not be appropriate RE material.

Castes represented by Sikhs in Britain include Kumhar (potter) and Khatri (the urban business and professional caste to which the Gurus all belonged) but I shall concentrate upon the three largest — the Jats, the most numerous in Punjab and in Britain, the Ramgarhias and the Bhatras. The migration history of these groups is different, as to some extent, are their attitudes and aspirations. The caste factor is relevant, for example, to understanding the dynamics of Pun- jab’s political crisis and its repercussions in Britain. Khalistan has fired the imagination of Jats, whose sympathies are overwhelmingly with the discontented farming sector, but has much less appeal for the traditionally landless castes who resented Jat dominance. Gurdwara management committees are often exclusively of one caste. The congregation of a Ramgarhia gurdwara will be predominantly, if not solely, Ramgarhia.

Before the late 1950s the majority of Sikh settlers in Britain were Bhatra. Many originated from the Sialkot area now in Pakistan. In India Bhatras have been perceived by others as a low-status, itinerant community of fortune-tellers. The visitor to New Delhi may still find Bhatra Sikhs in this line of business. In contemporary India members of all communities are to be found in widely ranging occupations. In Britain they settled in seaports — Glasgow, Portsmouth, Southampton, Bristol, Cardiff, and in Manchester, London, Edinburgh, and Nottingham. At first they worked as door-to-door sellers. Nowadays they run small shops, let property, and engage in a wide range of jobs. Although the longest established South Asian community in Britain, the Bhatras preserve customs long since abandoned by other Sikhs or unfamiliar to them. In the gurdwaras, contrary to Sikh teaching, wives are totally veiled because of the presence of senior male in-laws, and they are discouraged from working outside the home. Education, especially for girls, has not usually been highly valued and marriage takes place at an early age, at least according to my observations during 1979/80.

Next to arrive in Britain in significant numbers were the Jats, from the peasant, land-owning class of rural Punjab. Individual holdings had become smaller and smaller as they were divided between sons. Family honour (izzat) had to be maintained at all cost, in particular the cost of an impressive dowry for one’s daughter. Many families had been uprooted at Partition in 1947, or members had moved to cities outside Punjab or travelled further afield e.g. to Hong Kong or Singapore in the army. Between 1959 and 1963 particularly, because of British immigration policy and the availability of work vouchers, young Jat men found emigration to Britain an appealing prospect. Most cut their hair and removed their turbans. Wives joined them later and entered the workforce. Most Jats have come from the Jullundur Doab, between the rivers Satluj and Beas.

When the British were planning the East African railway and other construction projects at the turn of the century they recruited skilled Sikh artisans of the woodworking, blacksmith, and mason castes as indentured labourers. These people referred to themselves collectively as Ramgarhia, a title originally assumed by a famous military leader from the carpenter caste in the turbulent 18th century. The indentured labourers returned to Punjab but caste fellows migrated and Ramgarhia Sikhs established themselves as a successful middle tier in colonial society. With the rise of Idi Amin in Uganda and the Africanisation policy in other East African countries, many Ramgarhia Sikhs arrived in Britain around 1970, joining those who had migrated direct from India. In East African cities Ramgarhia men had frequently held professional positions. They were used to maintaining their distinct identity overseas and enjoyed pleasant houses, African servants and cars. Unlike so many of the Jats, most saw no reason to cut their hair. In a Ramgarhia congregation white turbans tend to predominate.

In Britain there are two further Punjabi caste groups with separate places of worship e.g. in Derby and Coventry. Some members may appear to be Sikh to the outsider, and if questioned might well agree that they were Sikh. Others in the same congregation might define themselves as Hindu. These communities are the Balmikis and the Ravidasis — Punjabis whose ancestral occupations were sweeping and leatherwork respectively, essential hereditary duties discharged by untouchables now classified as scheduled castes in India. Balmikis have adopted the Punjabi form of the name of Rishi Valmiki (also, they believe, of sweeper caste). He is respected as the composer of the Ramayan epic which Balmikis honour as their holy book. Ravidasis have assumed the name of the 15th century saint-poet Ravidas who was born into a chamar (leatherworker) home in Banaras. The Guru Granth Sahib includes forty of his hymns and is the scripture used in Ravidasi worship. Unlike Sikhs, they call him Guru and celebrate his birthday as a major festival. Neither Balmikis nor Ravidasis have felt welcome in either mandirs or gurdwaras. With the increasing educational and economic opportunity both in India and in Britain, their self-image has improved. Separate place of worship provide a sense of identity and community pride otherwise unattainable.

Religious fervour and renewed commitment are inspired by charismatic individuals known as sant and usually referred to with respectful affection as Babaji. Space permits mention of only a few. Sants visit devotees in Britain with increasing frequency, and some are permamently domiciled here. Sant Ishar Singh of Rara Sahib, Punjab, died in Wolverhampton. Visitors to the vast gurdwara at Rara Sahib see on display not only his ceremonial kirpans but also an English folding umbrella.

Police estimate 10,000 mourners attended the funeral of Sant Puran Singh in 1983. Known affectionately as Kerichowale Baba from Kericho, the place where he had lived in Kenya, he inspired numerous Sikhs in Britain to take their faith seriously, regrow their hair and give up alcohol and meat. He founded the Nishkam Sevak Jatha in Birmingham and lent his support to the successful turban campaign that was mounted when Lord Denning upheld a Birmingham headmaster’s refusal to allow Gurinder Singh MandeIa to study at his private school if he wore a turban. In 1983 the Law Lords reversed his ruling with implications for the concept of Sikh nationhood.

Some Sikhs will regard a particular sant as an inspiration to pure Sikhism. For others he will be a charlatan basking in adoration appropriate only to the Guru Granth Sahib. Individuals may be attracted to a sant because of the healing he offers. In Coventry I have heard Sikhs testify to cures attributed to Baba Ajit Singh, who has a large local following, and to Baba Harbans Singh Domeliwale, now based in West Bromwich. For those members of an encapsulated community, relatively isolated from mainstream British society, contact with a sant can boost personal self-esteem.

Indian political forces are also at work. If a sant and his followers proclaim themselves to be non-political this may also be interpreted as a political stance. Some Sikhs revere the late Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale and want autonomy for Punjab (or Khalistan) from the New Delhi government. For those campaigning for Khalistan the ideal of the sant sipahi or saint-soldier as exemplified by Guru Gobind Singh, is compelling. For youngsters growing up in Britain, with no firsthand experience of Punjab’s intermeshed social fabric, the notion of Sikh separatism can be attractive, bringing with it the passionate sense of identity they need in the inner city. Sikh youngsters have joined the International Sikh Youth Federation set up by Bhai Jasbir Singh, Bhindranwale’s nephew, as well as the Sikh Youth Movement and Damdami Taksal Jatha. However, it must be stressed that Sikhs generally have no desire to spoil their community image in Britain by violent factionalism. To understand Sikhism in Britain as a living faith we need to understand the dynamic interaction in which our Sikh pupils are caught up.

In Coventry and Smethwick the Nanaksar gurdwaras share their ethos with Nanaksar gurdwaras in Delhi and Punjab. At Nanaksar itself a beautiful gurdwara stands where the saintly Baba Nand Singh used to meditate. Certain features mark these gurdwaras — an emphasis on spirituality for example. One observes in each a distinctive portrait of Guru Nanak, veneration of the Guru Granth Sahib on a grand scale, uniformly clad bahingams (celibate votaries), a joyful celebration every full moon night. Sikh critics accuse Nanaksar devotees of exalting their sants (there are several aspirant successors to Baba Nand Singh) to the status of Guru.

This is one key to understanding how the same religious group is described by Sikhs variously as pure Sikhism, non-Sikh, or anti-Sikh. For Hindus to call a spiritual teacher Guru entails no such bitter controversy. Borderline Sikh movements often appeal to people from Sikh and Hindu background alike. Not surprisingly this blurring of the boundaries is perceived by many Sikhs as a threat to their separate identity. One ambiguous religious movement whose spiritual leader, Charan Singh, appears outwardly Sikh, yet is regarded as Guru by his followers, is the Radhasoami Satsang, which has affected the lifestyle of Sikhs and Hindus from a variety of castes in Britain. Much more controversial because of his alleged connection with the Indian Congress Party was Darshan Das’s Sachkhand Nanak Dham. (In November 1987 Darshan Das was killed).

In Birmingham, Leeds and London there are Namdhari centres. Namdharis or Kukas are not currently the centre of controversy. In fact, they are respected for their part in 19th century Sikh history, but their faith in a succession of human Gurus after the death of Guru Gobind Singh conflicts with orthodox Sikh belief. The movement owes its origin and disciplined lifestyle to the decisive leadership of Guru Ram Singh (b. 1816) who exhorted his followers to social reform including the termination of British rule in India. Namdharis are strict vegetarians and wear white turbans tied flat across the brow in the style of Guru Nanak. Expenditure on Namdhari marriages is expected to be minimal with several couples, clad in plain white, marrying at the same time on a festival day. Instead of the Guru Granth Sahib a sacred fire is the centre of their circumambulation. The present Guru, Jagjit Singhji, has visited Britain many times. His 1976 visit made the headlines as, after weeks of drought, raindrops rewarded his prayers. He actively promotes international peace and the breeding of improved strains of dairy cattle.

The Nirankaris were another Sikh reform movement roughly contemporary with the Namdharis. But nowadays the name generally refers to the Sant Nirankari Mandal or Universal Brotherhood which began with Buta Singh (1873—1943). When their Guru, Hardev Singh, visited followers in Britain in 1985 there was no outside publicity and his visit was given police cover. In 1980 his father Gurbachan Singh had been killed in Delhi in a crescendo of violent encounters between Sant Nirankaris and Sikhs. Fourteen Sikhs who went to oppose a Sant Nirankari rally in 1978 had been murdered and the Sikhs’ highest authority, the Akal Takht, then ordered a boycott of the sect. The Nirankari Guru’s combination of an outwardly Sikh appearance with teachings that dispensed with the taboos of any individual religion, Sikhism included, incensed Sikhs.

Members of the Akhand Kirtani Jatha derive their inspiration from the teaching and example of Bhai Randhir Singh (1878—1961), a saintly and learned Sikh who dedicated his life to India’s freedom struggle. Akhand kirtan means continuous hymn-singing, and the Jatha have overnight twelve hour performances of devotional music. Devotees take amrit, are strictly vegetarian, and women wear a keski or small turban under their chunni (Punjabi head-covering). They are closely associated with Babar Khalsa, an organisation which supports Sikh separatism.

Whatever their religious and political orientation most Sikhs in Britain are ambitious for their children, urging them to achieve the highest educational qualifications, so improving the family’s status. However, parents fear that if children leave home to study at university they may adopt western mores, choose a partner and refuse to marry into a suitable family. As this would threaten family honour and unity, parents may insist on daughters, in particular, studying locally.

Sikhism is very much alive, as testified by both its unity and its division but for the most part it has not tackled the issues raised by the existence in Britain of a growing number of young Sikhs ill at ease with the language of the scriptures and Sikh worship. The Sikh Missionary Society is endeavouring to meet this need and runs annual camps for children, realising that unless more instruction is given in English the younger generation will lose interest in Sikh belief and practice. Gurdwara and LEA provision for Punjabi teaching is often ad hoc with inadequately trained teachers, unsatisfactory books and erratic attendance by pupils. Surely this could be a more real threat to British Sikhs’ continuing identity than any legislation in New Delhi or racial prejudice in Britain. Sants and preachers communicate in Punjabi and have little idea of the children’s experience in a world infused with western values. Here we teachers have a vital role to play as interpreters of tradition who are aware of both the eastern and western religious idiom. The more insight we have into the complexities of British Sikhism the more sensitively we can play this role.

Further Reading

General

Ballard, R. and C., The Sikhs — The Development of South Asian Settlement in Britain in, Between Two Cultures — migrants and minorities in Britain.
Watson, J.L. (ed.) 1977 Blackwell. Oxford. pp2l—56.
James, A. G., 1974, Sikh Children in Britain. OUP for IRR London.
Helweg, A. W., 1986, Sikhs in England. OUP Delhi.
Bhatra Sikhs

Ghuman, P. A., 1980, Bhattra Sikhs in Cardiff: family and kinship organisation in New Community VIII 3: pp3O8—316.
Jat Sikhs

Pettigrew, J., 1975 Robber Nobleman — A Study of the Political System of the Sikh Jats. Routledge, London.
Ramgarhia Sikhs

Bachu, P. 1985. Twice Migrants: East African Sikh Settlers in Britain, Tavistock, London
Balmikis and Ravidasis

Juergensmeyer M., 1982, Religion As Social Vision: The Movement against untouchability in 20th Century Punjab, University of California Press
Namdharis, Nirankaris and Radha Soamis

Singh, K., 1977, A History of the Sikhs, Vol. 2 1839—1974. OUP Delhi, ppl23—135
Nanaksar

Nesbitt, E. M., 1985, The Nanaksar Movement, in Religion XV pp67—79.
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Re: Social Problems in Punjab and their Strategic Impact

Post by sanjaykumar »

Very useful information, thanks for posting it.
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Re: Social Problems in Punjab and their Strategic Impact

Post by Cyrano »

https://x.com/_Nihar_N/status/1705106516897145035?s=20
I'm a native of Odisha. A state which has(had?) a negligible presence in national discourse be it academia, politics, sports, entertainment, business, media etc. With a population of 4.5 crore this is the situation. Comparing this with Sikhs a population of only 2.2 crore and the level of dominance they have in Military, Business, academia, politics, entertainment and general pop culture, it amuses me how some of them (even though a tiny minority) feel Indian state is discriminating them and have a secessionist tendency.

It can rightly be said that these kind of secessionist tendencies are due to identity politics and nothing else. Due to separate identity based politics people create these divisive agendas and to back them they search for supplementary evidence. India is full of flaws and contradictions so it is not difficult to find such evidence. Even though many more evidence could be found contradicting these negative ones but the secessionists doubles down on the negative ones to build a narrative.

Edit:-
Another thing I forgot add. An average Sikh gets more respect and love in any corner of India than an average Hindu. Due to state rivalry one Hindu from one state might have dislike or even hate for a Hindu from other state but hardly anyone hate a Sikh. Atleast I've never seen anyone disliking a Sikh. They are considered patriotic and fierce fighters by most Hindus.

It is difficult to explain these secessionist therefore.
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Re: Social Problems in Punjab and their Strategic Impact

Post by ramana »

Wish we had a similar taxonomy of Canadian and US Sikhs.

More articles in the Sikhism section:

http://www.shapcalendar.org.uk/specialedition.html
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Re: Social Problems in Punjab and their Strategic Impact

Post by ramana »

Another gem of a paper:

http://www.shapcalendar.org.uk/speciale ... singh.html

Title:
The search for identity by young Sikhs in Great Britain
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Re: Social Problems in Punjab and their Strategic Impact

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In the second link do look at Punjabi Australians and Punjabi-New Zealanders
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Re: Social Problems in Punjab and their Strategic Impact

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Why Khalistanis Are Attacking Temples Across the World

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHrobyFuoK4
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Re: Social Problems in Punjab and their Strategic Impact

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Nihang Sikh Kills Cop, Locks Group Inside Gurdwara After Clashes; Kapurthala Tense

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTZandBhBJI
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Re: Social Problems in Punjab and their Strategic Impact

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Khalistanis convicted of trying to assassinate NRI in New Zealand

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-YsPjfK2IU
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Re: Social Problems in Punjab and their Strategic Impact

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Bollywood movie screening premiere in Canada attacked by Khalistanis:



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Re: Social Problems in Punjab and their Strategic Impact

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Wave of drug-carrying drones flying into India from Pakistan, officials say

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... icials-say
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Re: Social Problems in Punjab and their Strategic Impact

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Doesn't gora-sahib accent make everything sound better?

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Re: Social Problems in Punjab and their Strategic Impact

Post by sanjaykumar »

^^drugs should be legalized in Panjab.

There is a move to legalisation in Netherlands Oregon etc.

Instead of massaging chairs the Sikhs in the US should send monthly support payments for drug purchase. That will keep them from unnecessary criminality.

The health benefits of safe opium dens and injection sites can not be overemphasized. These unfortunate people will need help with hepatitis treatment. Their families should also be supported.

India is still a poor country and along with the stigma, Sikhs cannot depend on GoI for this. Perhaps the government of Panjab or the SGPC can support the drug habits of these men.
sanjaykumar
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Re: Social Problems in Punjab and their Strategic Impact

Post by sanjaykumar »

The above post assumes most of drug use is by sikh men.

I do not have formal data for Hindus. But this reasoning of harm reduction would of course apply to them as well.
sanman
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Re: Social Problems in Punjab and their Strategic Impact

Post by sanman »

hgupta
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Re: Social Problems in Punjab and their Strategic Impact

Post by hgupta »

I think they are bluffing. They are trying to scare the Indian diplomats into compromising situations and blackmail India with it. Won't work.
sanman
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Re: Social Problems in Punjab and their Strategic Impact

Post by sanman »

hgupta wrote: 28 Dec 2023 15:01 I think they are bluffing. They are trying to scare the Indian diplomats into compromising situations and blackmail India with it. Won't work.
If Ottawa believes Nijjar's killers are still in Canada, then why was Ottawa asking for help in investigating over in India?

They seem to be contradicting themselves.
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Re: Social Problems in Punjab and their Strategic Impact

Post by sanman »

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politic ... s-slaying/
RCMP Expected to Make Arrests Soon in Sikh Leader Hardeep Singh Nijjar’s Slaying
ROBERT FIFEOTTAWA BUREAU CHIEF
STEVEN CHASESENIOR PARLIAMENTARY REPORTER
OTTAWA

PUBLISHED YESTERDAY
UPDATED 1 HOUR AGO

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau attends a news conference after the closing session of the G20 summit in New Delhi on Sept. 10.



Two men who investigators believe fatally shot a prominent Sikh separatist leader in British Columbia are under police surveillance and are expected to be arrested by the RCMP in a matter of weeks, sources say.

Hardeep Singh Nijjar, 45, was leaving a Sikh temple in Surrey on June 18 when he was shot multiple times in a gangland-style slaying. He had been reportedly warned by the Canadian Security Intelligence Service that his life was in danger.

In September, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau accused the government of India of being behind the brazen shooting of Mr. Nijjar, a Canadian citizen – an allegation strongly denied by the Indian government that led to a deterioration in bilateral relations.

New Delhi had accused Mr. Nijjar of being a terrorist during his campaign for a Sikh homeland in the northern Indian state of Punjab that Sikh separatists refer to as Khalistan. A 2020 statement by the Indian government alleged he was “actively involved in operationalising, networking, training and financing” members of the militant group Khalistan Tiger Force.

Three sources told The Globe and Mail that the suspected killers never left Canada after Mr. Nijjar’s slaying and have been under police surveillance for months. Two of the sources said the RCMP are expected to make arrests and lay charges in the coming weeks.

The sources said police will explain the alleged assassins’ involvement and that of the Indian government when charges are laid against the two men. The Globe is not identifying the sources because they were not authorized to discuss national-security and police matters.

It is not known whether the RCMP are expected to arrest any suspected accomplices in the slaying. The Washington Post reported in September, citing video footage and witness accounts, that at least six men and two vehicles were involved in the killing of Mr. Nijjar.

The RCMP did not respond to questions from The Globe about the investigation and whether charges were imminent.

Mr. Trudeau has said that Canadian intelligence had identified “credible allegations” of a link between Mr. Nijjar’s death and agents of the Indian state. He made the announcement in the House of Commons on Sept. 18, after the Prime Minister’s Office learned that The Globe planned to publish the story based on national-security sources. The Globe story was published shortly before Mr. Trudeau rose in the Commons.

Mr. Trudeau had already raised the allegations with his Indian counterpart at the G20 summit in New Delhi in September. CSIS director David Vigneault and the Prime Minister’s national-security adviser Jody Thomas also travelled to India to present the findings, government officials have told The Globe.

However, New Delhi has denied any involvement in Mr. Nijjar’s death, insisting that Canada has not shared credible evidence to show Indian agents were behind the slaying.

The accusation had an immediate impact on Indo-Canadian relations. Ottawa shelved free-trade talks and a business trade mission to India, while New Delhi stripped 41 Canadian diplomats of their diplomatic protections in the South Asian country.

Canada’s allegations were buttressed after U.S. authorities announced in November that they had foiled a plan to kill a Canadian-American Sikh activist in New York and uncovered apparent links to the slaying of Mr. Nijar and threats to three other Canadian Sikhs.

A criminal indictment unsealed in New York said that Nikhil Gupta, an Indian national who was arrested in the Czech Republic in June, allegedly arranged the murder for hire of the U.S.-based Sikh activist Gurpatwant Singh Pannun, general counsel for the New York-based Sikhs for Justice.

Mr. Gupta allegedly told an undercover officer less than two weeks before Mr. Nijjar’s death that there was a “big target” in Canada. Mr. Gupta was allegedly recruited by an Indian government employee to “orchestrate the assassination” of Mr. Pannun. The Indian agent described himself as a “senior field officer” who previously served in the country’s Central Reserve Police Force, the indictment said, “and had responsibilities in “security management” and “intelligence.”

The Indian agent agreed to pay US$100,000 to a purported hitman, who was an undercover police officer, to kill Mr. Pannun in a deal brokered by Mr. Gupta, U.S. prosecutors allege.

A few days before Mr. Nijjar’s death in June, Mr. Gupta told an undercover officer – whom he thought was a criminal – that “we will be needing one good team in Canada” to carry out another assassination, according to the indictment. He also allegedly told the police officer that the plotters in India would be directing slayings in both countries.

Mr. Gupta allegedly later told the undercover officer that Mr. Nijjar was No. 4 or No. 3 among assassination targets in Canada and the United States.

Mr. Gupta has been charged with murder for hire as well as conspiracy to commit murder for hire. Both charges carry a maximum sentence of 10 years in prison.
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Re: Social Problems in Punjab and their Strategic Impact

Post by Haresh »

sanman wrote: 27 Dec 2023 23:18 Doesn't gora-sahib accent make everything sound better?
I have seen a few of these types of video's, they get a gora to do the talking, they think it gives them more legitimacy. The content and the words of the video do not matter, it is just the goras voice.

It is nonsense, since when has India had a military alliance with Iran?
Why is India responsible in anyway for the continuing war in Ukraine ?
These idiots seem to forget that their only reward for fighting in WW1 was the Amritsar massacre.
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