India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 13 Dec 2016 21:19

Between Rick Perry, T. Rex, and Scott Pruit, the US commitment to the Paris Agreement and UN Climate Change Framework should now die a quick death. This is good news for India. There should be no stopping India's build up of coal power as there is lots of coal in Bihar. We need Rs. 1/- KWHr power rates.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 13 Dec 2016 21:23

schinnas wrote:Human cause of climate change is accepted by vast majority of scientists. Lay persons in Delhi, Beijing and Bangalore will attest to it.

This is correct because waste, wood, diesel, kerosene are being burned for transportation, heating and cooking. Affordable energy is the key here and that is why it is so important the US stay away from India's push to cheap power by any means necessary.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 13 Dec 2016 21:24

In a Facebook post Tuesday morning, Ms. Rice wrote: “Rex Tillerson is an excellent choice for Secretary of State. He will bring to the post remarkable and broad international experience; a deep understanding of the global economy; and a belief in America’s special role in the world.
“I know Rex as a successful business man and a patriot. He will represent the interests and the values of the United States with resolve and commitment. And he will lead the exceptional men and women of the State Department with respect and dedication. I look forward to supporting Rex through the confirmation process and then welcoming him to the family of Secretaries of State,” she said.

disha · Post by **disha** » 13 Dec 2016 21:46

Mort Walker wrote:
schinnas wrote:Human cause of climate change is accepted by vast majority of scientists. Lay persons in Delhi, Beijing and Bangalore will attest to it.
This is correct because waste, wood, diesel, kerosene are being burned for transportation, heating and cooking. Affordable energy is the key here and that is why it is so important the US stay away from India's push to cheap power by any means necessary.

72^72 for Mort'j

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 13 Dec 2016 22:04

in the US, natural gas is kicking coal's butt.

shale oil production is bringing more natural gas on line each day.

the US is exporting natural gas to Mexico who is a major oil producer,

I fully expect for technology to create even more natural gas from various resources,

however it should be noted that this only slows down the creation of co2. it doesn't stop it.

that will take another 30 to fifty years of tech change to go to fusion electrical generation and electrical battery tech transportation modal change.

hopefully, we won't be destroyed by then. I like to think that I left the world a better place for my grand children.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 13 Dec 2016 22:55

panduranghari wrote:You can believe it, I dont. Because there is no evidence for the claimed 'change'. Evidence has to be backed by factual data over a reasonable time frame. There is none. The data collected should be reproducible. Its not. Even the NOAA data. The models needs to include so many variables, that human mind cant comprehend them yet. But we have brainwashed masses claiming climate change. Now even the supposed, Antarctic ice shelf is shown to be exactly as it was 116 years ago. So much for climate change.

Today questioning climate science is close enough to reasoning given for burning heretics at the stake in medieval Europe- Failure to accept the orthodoxy.

Couldn't help observing.

I could literally take anything someone said in debate that made me angry or uncomfortable, and say, "reasoning is close enough to that used to burning heretics". I would not be wrong, because I slyly protected myself from challenge by including the weasel word "close enough " and the high likelihood that no one in the audience actually knows anything about the history of burning heretic or the reasoning used for the same.

This method of debating comes in handy when I don't have a case or don't have enough expertise in science or respect for the topic or audience to carefully lay out exactly how the standard research on climate change (or any complex multi-variable topic like DNA analysis or search engines) fails to meet scientific standards, beyond stating some loose version of said standards and baldly asserting that the research in question doesn't meet those standards.

Because then, if you are fool enough to challenge me, then you are somehow the same as a middle ages heretic burner.

So, I win the debate, and in my own eyes I am a proud individualistic rebel who really stuck it to the scientific establishment, and I may gain a lot of admirers and followers who like to be associated with winning.

Hooray.

Coming to Indo-US relations, this pattern is actually how US wins in that context: Indians think there are rules of civilized discourse, debate and interaction, but the American side knows that what is important is to win and mentally dominate, rules are for fools and losers.

for example, they can say, the political climate in India is Hindu-dominated, Hindus are plotting to exterminate Muslims and Christians out of revenge for a false belief that Muslims were not peaceful or Christians were not loving.

When Hindus try to point to the overwhelming level of evidence that in fact, mostly Muslims were not peaceful and Christians were not loving, US along with its evangelicals and Indian sepoys asserts baldly that none of this so-called evidence meets scientific standards, because (bald assertion again) there is no reproducible data about Hindu suffering due to Muslim atrocities or Christian depredations. The entire history of the entire Hindu people of India because massa baldly and boldly rules that it is not evidence, and doesn't bother to explain why it is not evidence because that would defeat the purpose of winning against the rule-bound natives.

When Hindus, fools that they are, get a little irritated at this, it is time for US and its sepoys to drop the bomb: the reasoning of Hindus who are upset is "close enough " to the reasoning, in this case, behind Fascism and Hitler.

And America wins automatically, since they are self-evidently powerful winners and who doesn't want to be a part of that? Smelly Hindus, with their intellectual integrity, can go rot in the dust bin of history.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Dec 2016 23:16

The CIA finally releases evidence of Russian cyber warfare against the election...

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 13 Dec 2016 23:20

He wrote it when he was 7 years old?

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 13 Dec 2016 23:21

KLNMurthy wrote:
for example, they can say, the political climate in India is Hindu-dominated, Hindus are plotting to exterminate Muslims and Christians out of revenge for a false belief that Muslims were not peaceful or Christians were not loving.
The entire history of the entire Hindu people of India because massa baldly and boldly rules that it is not evidence, and doesn't bother to explain why it is not evidence because that would defeat the purpose of winning against the rule-bound natives.

And America wins automatically, since they are self-evidently powerful winners and who doesn't want to be a part of that? Smelly Hindus, with their intellectual integrity, can go rot in the dust bin of history.

The narrative of Indian history is been given to the west due to colonial narrative. Rajiv Malhotra exposed this and has been doing the struggle to bring the narrative back to Indian based narrative which is Hindu based.
The political dominance of the western history narrative is also another cause which RM talks about. These are the same thing which translates into current debates on Climate change, Enviroment issues, religious rights and minority rights etc.

Most of the western news report has similar bias against India even now. Once if one is able to identify it it becomes apparent when you read any news report on India in western media.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 13 Dec 2016 23:23

Two men involved in the November 2015 Paris attacks have been killed in Syria in a US air strike, officials say.
BBC

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 13 Dec 2016 23:31

Most of the western news report has similar bias against India even now. Once if one is able to identify it it becomes apparent when you read any news report on India in western media.

When did you ever read Indian media reports on Christian genocides? Yet they happily report Armenian genocides and France's official declaration. https://www.rt.com/news/349270-armenia- ... rance-law/

Why blame western media when indeed there is no counter narrative by the imbecilic Indian press?

disha · Post by **disha** » 13 Dec 2016 23:44

How is the new US-SoS affects India? Positively or negatively?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Dec 2016 00:10

SaiK wrote:He wrote it when he was 7 years old?

Not sure if internet existed when he was 7 years old

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 14 Dec 2016 00:13

Austin wrote:
Not sure if internet existed when he was 7 years old

Even Putin would not beleive such article could be written
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ssia-putin

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Dec 2016 00:17

more such news validates the theory of brainless paki ISIs

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 14 Dec 2016 01:14

TSJones wrote:in the US, natural gas is kicking coal's butt.

shale oil production is bringing more natural gas on line each day.

the US is exporting natural gas to Mexico who is a major oil producer,

I fully expect for technology to create even more natural gas from various resources,

however it should be noted that this only slows down the creation of co2. it doesn't stop it.

that will take another 30 to fifty years of tech change to go to fusion electrical generation and electrical battery tech transportation modal change.

hopefully, we won't be destroyed by then. I like to think that I left the world a better place for my grand children.

That is right. Trump's promises of revival of coal mining industry notwithstanding, coal production in USA will likely continue to go down, all unemployed ex coal miners need to find new occupations.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 14 Dec 2016 01:16

Mort Walker wrote:Between Rick Perry, T. Rex, and Scott Pruit, the US commitment to the Paris Agreement and UN Climate Change Framework should now die a quick death. This is good news for India. There should be no stopping India's build up of coal power as there is lots of coal in Bihar. We need Rs. 1/- KWHr power rates.

You need to update, post 2000 Bihar has about zero coal ( or minerals/ores ). Jharkhand has all the coal ( and minerals/ores ).

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 14 Dec 2016 01:19

^^^My bad, I'm thinking of Jharkhand and Bihar as the same. Sorry.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 14 Dec 2016 01:55

coal industry employment has been crashing for years.

not much underground mining is going on. its too labor intensive.

its gone mostly to strip mining where entire mountains are leveled by a crew of less than 10.

in the future we will need coal and oil to make stuff, not to burn it for energy.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 14 Dec 2016 02:14

Coal still supplies India with over 60% of its power and over 33% in the US. There is coal to supply India with power for the next 100 years and not as much NG. Right now India does not need to be lectured by the west, including the US, about being "green". It needs cheap power and lots of it to improve the lives of its people.

Hopefully, the Trump administration will stay quiet about this and let India develop and use its coal for power.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Dec 2016 02:25

Mort Walker wrote:Coal still supplies India with over 60% of its power and over 33% in the US. There is coal to supply India with power for the next 100 years and not as much NG. Right now India does not need to be lectured by the west, including the US, about being "green". It needs cheap power and lots of it to improve the lives of its people.

Hopefully, the Trump administration will stay quiet about this and let India develop and use its coal for power.

Exactly. US has been putting non tariff barriers to India's growth and development after having contributed to GHG all along.

This is the environmental trap of slowing down development.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 14 Dec 2016 02:43

deleted

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 14 Dec 2016 05:18

Exxon boss: climate change is ‘real’ and ‘serious’ - October 2016

Exxon Mobil CEO Rex Tillerson said Wednesday the company backs a price on carbon and believes climate change brings “real” risks that require “serious” action.

Speaking at the Oil & Money conference in London, Tillerson also noted that the Paris climate accord set to kick in this November is unlikely to limit near-term consumption of oil and gas, Climate Central reported.

“We have long used a proxy cost of carbon… there’s a range depending on the country, depending on the tax that we think would be appropriate,” he said. “We’re trying to influence and inform people and business on the choices they make.”

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Dec 2016 07:31

BTW, coal (oil and gas too) can come at the cost of subsidies to food.

............. here are some stats...........

India says the cost of solar power is now cheaper than coal

April, 2016

But what could help make it happen is the falling price of solar power. This year, solar energy prices in the country dropped to around parity with coal for the first time ever, hitting 4.34 rupees (about 6 US cents) a kilowatt-hour (kWh), while coal tariffs range usually range in between 3–5 rupees/kWh (about 5–8 US cents).

And if the price keeps falling at a similar rate, it will soon drop significantly below coal, with some saying that by 2020, solar could be as much as 10 percent cheaper than coal power.

To force the fall of the price:

Modi Said to Plan $3.1 Billion Boost for India’s Solar Factories

Oct, 2016

In the first six months of 2016, India imported 18 percent of China’s production worth $1.1 billion, according to Bloomberg New Energy Finance.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Dec 2016 07:32

ramana wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:Coal still supplies India with over 60% of its power and over 33% in the US. There is coal to supply India with power for the next 100 years and not as much NG. Right now India does not need to be lectured by the west, including the US, about being "green". It needs cheap power and lots of it to improve the lives of its people.

Hopefully, the Trump administration will stay quiet about this and let India develop and use its coal for power.
Exactly. US has been putting non tariff barriers to India's growth and development after having contributed to GHG all along.

This is the environmental trap of slowing down development.

Curious, how did you arrive at that conclusion? Did PM sign after some arm twisting and in the process actually give up some development?

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 14 Dec 2016 08:06

SaiK wrote:He wrote it when he was 7 years old?

Don't be silly..."everyone" knows (on good authority) that Putin cannot write in English. This is the handywork of that @#$%^& Snowden..

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Dec 2016 08:38

A very interesting article from 2015.

Coal or solar

few minutes after I meet E. V. R. Raju, a vision pops into my head. I can see him on one of those lists of the World’s Most Important People released by the likes of CNN, Forbes, and Time. Besides the obvious entrants like the president and the pope, the lists always also include a few buzzy, click-generating names: Emma Watson, perhaps, or Bono. Raju is certainly not in either of those categories. He is the environmental manager of a coalfield in northeastern India.

The Jharia coalfield, where Raju works, is India’s biggest and most significant, covering some 170 square miles. It has been on fire, calamitously, since 1916; entire villages have collapsed into the smoking ground. Raju’s job is to put out the fire, so that his company can roughly double the mine’s output in the next five years. Whether—and how—he can perform this task will have much more effect on the future of the world than anything, with all due respect, likely to be accomplished by UN-addressing actresses or aging Irish rock stars. In other words, if one were compiling a list of the World’s Most Important People, Raju should be on it.

Particulates of the equation.

Outdoor air pollution, most of it due to coal, is already responsible for 645,000 premature deaths a year, according to a study published in Nature; New Delhi, ringed by coal plants, is said to have the world’s most polluted air. Burning more coal will only make the situation worse. Already India has a high rate of chronic respiratory disease. “Success would be a disaster,” Agarwal says to me. “I don’t see how they get to a billion tons.”

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Dec 2016 09:02

From what I have read so far,

* pm is planning on both, coal and solar.

* With India replacing the gains made in the US + EU, in the next 5 years. China tips the balance in favor of pollution.

* Pollution in Delhi has a lot to do with coal fired plants. It should get worse

* India is bargaining for technologies from the West in return for less pollution. Techs at either low or no cost

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 14 Dec 2016 09:37

Lets get back to massa -India relations , rather than focusing on gober gas

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 14 Dec 2016 09:51

NRao wrote:From what I have read so far,

* pm is planning on both, coal and solar.Let's just see in the next 24 months how much capacity comes on that is coal.

* With India replacing the gains made in the US + EU, in the next 5 years. China tips the balance in favor of pollution.

* Pollution in Delhi has a lot to do with coal fired plants. It should get worseWrong. This has been discussed earlier.

* India is bargaining for technologies from the West in return for less pollution. Techs at either low or no costIt's called the IUSCNA, and we expect Trump to bring this to fruition.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 14 Dec 2016 10:03

Viv S wrote:Exxon boss: climate change is ‘real’ and ‘serious’ - October 2016
Exxon Mobil CEO Rex Tillerson said Wednesday the company backs a price on carbon and believes climate change brings “real” risks that require “serious” action.

Speaking at the Oil & Money conference in London, Tillerson also noted that the Paris climate accord set to kick in this November is unlikely to limit near-term consumption of oil and gas, Climate Central reported.

“We have long used a proxy cost of carbon… there’s a range depending on the country, depending on the tax that we think would be appropriate,” he said. “We’re trying to influence and inform people and business on the choices they make.”

T.Rex is a civil engineer who did concrete mud and casing designs for Exxon-Mobile and is a shrewd Texan. Knowing some of these oil guys, they are big time show offs and live larger than life. Exxon-Mobile spending money on climate change and making positive talk about it is all part of their public relations and factored in to their bottom line, heck they even finance Masterpiece Theater on public television since it's good PR. In a bad year, their profits are over $40 billion annual, but they know the oil/gas business is cyclical and make up for it. T.Rex knows he can talk a good deal about carbon and charge extra for gas and then do some positive PR, all the while Exxon-Mobile laughs on the way to the bank.

I'd tell T.Rex that in India we need Rs. 1/- liter gasoline and work with Modiji to get it done. You can keep on doing the climate change PR while lighting up your cigar with $100 bills.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 14 Dec 2016 11:18

Mort Walker wrote:T.Rex is a civil engineer who did concrete mud and casing designs for Exxon-Mobile and is a shrewd Texan. Knowing some of these oil guys, they are big time show offs and live larger than life. Exxon-Mobile spending money on climate change and making positive talk about it is all part of their public relations and factored in to their bottom line, heck they even finance Masterpiece Theater on public television since it's good PR. In a bad year, their profits are over $40 billion annual, but they know the oil/gas business is cyclical and make up for it. T.Rex knows he can talk a good deal about carbon and charge extra for gas and then do some positive PR, all the while Exxon-Mobile laughs on the way to the bank.

Tillerson's net worth is somewhere in the region of $250 mil. That's more than enough money for him to live life as large as he wants for the rest of his days. But where he might once have just retired as businessman, he'll now first and foremost be remembered for his tenure as SecState. The oil business will be a footnote.

As far as climate change is concerned, as an oil executive, generating positive PR was part of the job. When he becomes a public official, its no longer a PR function. As an engineer, I'm sure he's quite familiar with the scientific consensus regarding climate change and the anthropogenic factors involved. And as the Exxon boss, I'm sure he's doubly aware that much of the pioneering research in assessing the impact and threat of fossil fuel emissions was done by ExxonMobil's scientists.

When he's sworn into office his fiduciary responsibility is to his country's people not to his former shareholders. If he has integrity, and most commentary suggest that he does, it is his people's best interests that'll guide his actions and determine what kind of legacy is left to future generations.

I'd tell T.Rex that in India we need Rs. 1/- liter gasoline and work with Modiji to get it done. You can keep on doing the climate change PR while lighting up your cigar with $100 bills.

I can only hope and trust that Modi will never go along with such a plan. While long time GHG emitters in developed world should of course pay a heavier price that developing ones like India, ultimately we live in the same world and will all be affected by the consequences.

In India, in particular, nobody who's experienced the horrific winter smog in Indian metros or seen the affect burgeoning automobile use is having on already strained public infrastructure, should look forward to dirt cheap petrol.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Dec 2016 11:28

In the months before the war, The Washington Post ran more than 140 stories on its front page promoting the war.

Eleven Years On: How ‘The Washington Post’ Helped Give Us the Iraq War

Rammpal · Post by **Rammpal** » 14 Dec 2016 11:34

Viv S wrote:As an engineer, I'm sure he's quite familiar with the scientific consensus regarding climate change and the anthropogenic factors involved.

In India, in particular, nobody who's experienced the horrific winter smog in Indian metros or seen the affect burgeoning automobile use is having on already strained public infrastructure, should look forward to dirt cheap petrol.

Scientific consensus...??
Is there one ?

Cheap gas would mean lower operating cost for people carrier transportation operators, as fuel accounts for at least 2/3 of it.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 14 Dec 2016 11:42

Rammpal wrote:Scientific consensus...??
Is there one ?

There is.

Cheap gas would mean lower operating cost for people carrier transportation operators, as fuel accounts for at least 2/3 of it.

Public transport in India is faced with capacity issues not public affordability issues. And an expansion of public transport infrastructure is almost universally associated with a overall fall in fuel consumption.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 14 Dec 2016 11:45

Tillerson's net worth is somewhere in the region of $250 mil. That's more than enough money for him to live life as large as he wants for the rest of his days. But where he might once have just retired as businessman, he'll now first and foremost be remembered for his tenure as SecState. The oil business will be a footnote.

That's very modest. His contemporaries are in the $500 million+ range. Be happy that the Donald didn't pick Harold Hamm for Energy Secretary who has a net worth over $15 billion. Hamm is an outright open denier of any climate change, man made or otherwise.

I can only hope and trust that Modi will never go along with such a plan. While long time GHG emitters in developed world should of course pay a heavier price that developing ones like India, ultimately we live in the same world and will all be affected by the consequences.

In India, in particular, nobody who's experienced the horrific winter smog in Indian metros or seen the affect burgeoning automobile use is having on already strained public infrastructure, should look forward to dirt cheap petrol.

If the opportunity for cheap oil comes along, rest assured, Modiji will grab it just like anyone else. Even Ombaba was bragging during the election as to how he brought the price of gas down below $2/gallon. I can assure you that DT is going to dismantle all climate change initiatives within two years and possibly pull out of and dump cold water on any international climate change agreements and proposals. India should and must make hay while the sun shines in the next 8 years of a Trump administration.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Dec 2016 12:02

BTW how are you going to get Cheap Oil ? Even with Oil $50 they cannot sustain the price for longer and eventually this will grow to 70-80 USD barrel as the investment for drilling and new source of oil cant be sustained with low oil prices.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 14 Dec 2016 12:05

Hamm has indicated that fracking is still profitable around $20/barrel.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 14 Dec 2016 12:09

Mort Walker wrote:That's very modest. His contemporaries are in the $500 million+ range. Be happy that the Donald didn't pick Harold Hamm for Energy Secretary who has a net worth over $15 billion.

There are some 550 billionaires in the US. Most will be forgotten in a generation or two. There have been just 20 secretaries of state since WWII and whatever opinion one may have of them, fact is Marshall, Rusk, Kissinger, Shultz, Albright have become part of history. This is what Tillerson will be remembered for as well.

If the opportunity for cheap oil comes along, rest assured, Modiji will grab it just like anyone else. Even Ombaba was bragging during the election as to how he brought the price of gas down below $2/gallon.

Sure he'll grab it if its available to all. Taxes on it can be used to generate revenue while still checking excess consumption. The same doesn't apply elsewhere in the world while makes the prospect of cheap petrol for the whole world a very different prospect. His govt's talk & action on climate change doesn't appear superficial to me, though of course that's just an opinion.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Dec 2016 12:19

Mort Walker wrote:Hamm has indicated that fracking is still profitable around $20/barrel.

Franking is a good opportunity for US as it helps reduce dependencies on imported Energy , It was never a profitable business though , The only reason fracking survived was because of cheap credit available in US but as business from charts I saw Fracking was always in Red

You can read here why fracking is turning red even when the prices where high and why Oil Companies are going bankrupt

http://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-Gener ... krupt.html

Oil Sector Debt

https://dailyreckoning.com/oil-sector-debt/