Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

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Vivek K
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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Vivek K » 14 Jun 2019 07:48

A Nandy wrote:Live now: https://www.republicworld.com/livetv

https://twitter.com/republic/status/1138728440935268354

Launch on July 15, 2:51 AM
…….. For one full lunar day, the lander & rover will be functioning & carry out scientific experiments.

…..
Image


Is that a typo? One day only?

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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby srin » 14 Jun 2019 08:12

Vivek K wrote:
Is that a typo? One day only?


One lunar day saar, equivalent to some 14 earth days. IIRC, it's because rover is solar powered and can't last the lunar night.

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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Najunamar » 14 Jun 2019 08:12

No typo, 1 lunar day = 14 earth days.

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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Vivek K » 14 Jun 2019 08:14

Najunamar wrote:No typo, 1 lunar day = 14 earth days.


Hmmm! Need to give out facts for dumb people like me.

Also does the rover wake up after the lunar night? Why would it die?

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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Najunamar » 14 Jun 2019 08:16

Also, rover supposed to travel 1 cm/s and travel 500 m in 50000 s = 13.89 hours. I hope that 500 m distance is extent of max displacement rather than actual travel since there is plenty of time in 14 days to also account for the sampling at any given location.
Last edited by Najunamar on 14 Jun 2019 08:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Najunamar » 14 Jun 2019 08:16

Rover...and not river :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Najunamar » 14 Jun 2019 08:21

Perhaps since the temp can go to approx 100 K which could impair the operations of the rover equipment? Any details from Gurus?

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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Vips » 15 Jun 2019 02:59

Chandrayaan 2: Meet India’s ‘Rocket Women’ who are leading the country’s second moon mission.

India’s second quest to the Moon which is all set for official launch on July 15, is spearheaded by two women at the supreme helm of all things! India’s very own ‘Rocket Women’, as popularly titled for their superior scientific expertise are leading Chandrayaan 2, the Indian Space Research Organisation’s (ISRO) pivotal Lunar project. ISRO scientist Ritu Karidhal and electronics system engineer Muthayya Vanitha, both in their 40s, will be leading the Moon Mission’s main components- project oversight as well as crucial final phase of the landing. Ritu Karidhal, who was the deputy operations manager for the Mars Mission will now be the mission director for Chandrayaan 2. Karidhal holds a master’s degree in the field of Aerospace Engineering from the prestigious Indian Institute of Science (IISc). Muthayya Vanitha will be the project director for Chandrayaan 2 and is an electronics systems engineer. With scientific prowess and critical expertise for Space Engineering, these senior women space scientists have been associated with ISRO for close to two decades now and were a part of launches as well as sub-system development for satellites.

K Sivan, ISRO Chairman was quoted in a report by The Indian Express as saying that Chandrayaan-2 will mark a historic achievement as it is the first time for a planetary mission where women scientists are in charge. ISRO has previously had women project directors for the launch of communication and other satellites. According to K Radhakrishnan, former ISRO chairman, a project director is responsible for the project from the very beginning, which involves getting the entire system configured, reviewed, assembled and implemented, and also to become a single-point authority for the overall project.

He added that a mission director handles all the things which have to be done on the spacecraft from the time it is inserted into the orbit, from the initial operations, raising the orbit to taking all the contingency actions when required. Whereas the project director is to be a part of the task for years, while the mission director gets involved once the satellite is injected into orbit.

M Annadurai was quoted saying that from a project point of view, this will be the first time that Vanitha is in charge and it is a big turning point for her. However, she was in charge of another domain of making data handling systems for all their remote-sensing satellites. M Annadurai added that this is not something new for ISRO, to have women in charge of core projects. M Annadurai was the project director for Chandrayaan 1 as well as Chandrayaan 2, but later quit the project.

Quick Facts: Know Muthayya Vanitha, Project Director, Chandrayaan 2

She was the winner of the best woman scientist award of the Astronautical Society of India in the year 2006, and has been the deputy project director for data systems for the remote sensing satellites Cartosat-1, Oceansat-2 and Megha-Tropiques.
She also headed the telemetry as well as the telecommand divisions at the digital systems group at the satellite centre, which is now the UR Rao Space Centre.
She was a key scientist involved in ensuring that the Mangalyaan satellite which was launched on November 5, 2013
Quick Facts: Know Ritu Karidhal, Mission Director, Chandrayaan 2
A simple girl from the city of Lucknow, she got a chance to be associated with the Mars Mission with her never ending inquisitive spirit to know more about outer space.
For the Mars Mission, she was one of the persons who was identified to carry out the operations of the satellite. The automation on board was done for the first time in the Mars mission and Karidhal assisted in all of these operations. This is regarded as the turning point of her scientific career.

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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby krishGo » 18 Jun 2019 03:59

Najunamar wrote:Perhaps since the temp can go to approx 100 K which could impair the operations of the rover equipment? Any details from Gurus?


IMO Temperature gradient is the bigger problem than power generation. There was some talk of ISRO using Russian RHU / RTG, which would keep the critical components warm and generate electricity if they wanted limited operation during the lunar night. I beleieve they did not go through with this.

Temperatures on the moon can get much more severe than places like Mars due to variety of different factors. The lunar night, is 14 earth days long and there is almost no atmosphere to retain any heat.

The Chinese Yutu rover was equipped with an RTG and even then could only survive a single lunar night. This illustrates the problems of having long term robotic missions.

I believe ISRO even had a proposal where the rover would go back into the lander during the lunar night to decrease exposure to the low temperatures. But they do not seem to have gone forward with it.

The approach now is quite reasonable for our first rover. We should also parallely develop the expertise inhouse to develop RTGs for future missions. (which I beleive BARC is working on)
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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby krishGo » 18 Jun 2019 04:22

sanjaykumar wrote:Docking technology should be developed prior to human space flight lest the astronauts be marooned.

Is there a common standard for docking mechanisms and interlocks? Note this is not essential for rescue but would make things easier.


Well, usually docking isn't seen as an critical technology for human spaceflight itself. The general order of building a HSF program has been
1) Develop Critical Technologies (Life Support / Reentry / Crew Escape / Human rated launcher etc)
2) Develop technology for EVA (space walk) (EVA Suit / Life Support etc)
3) Scaling up (Docking, Space labs, space station)


ISRO should in general follow this template that has been followed by all HSF capable programs (Russia, USA, China). But we are already seeing ISRO not adhering to it strictly. Examples are them not planning to do an unmanned orbital test flight before the actual manned flight or planning to have 3 vymonauts on the first manned launch (all other countries have had only 1 astronaut on their first launches)

To answer your second question, yes, there is an international standard for docking.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Docking_System_Standard

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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby SSridhar » 18 Jun 2019 06:45

For the uninitiated like me,

RHU - Radioisotope heater unit
RTG - Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generator

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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby rajsunder » 18 Jun 2019 08:21

Najunamar wrote:Also, rover supposed to travel 1 cm/s and travel 500 m in 50000 s = 13.89 hours. I hope that 500 m distance is extent of max displacement rather than actual travel since there is plenty of time in 14 days to also account for the sampling at any given location.

The moon rovers designed by Russia in 1970's have survived on moon for 322 days and 120 days.

During its 322 Earth days of operations, Lunokhod 1 travelled 10.5 km (6.5 miles) and returned more than 20,000 television images and 206 high-resolution panoramas.[16] In addition, it performed twenty-five soil analyses with its RIFMA x-ray fluorescence spectrometer and used its penetrometer at 500 different locations.

Lunokhod 2 operated for about four months, covered 42 km (26 miles) of terrain,[17] including driving into hilly upland areas and rilles. Lunokhod 2 held the record for the longest distance of surface travel of any extraterrestrial vehicle until 2014.[9] It sent back 86 panoramic images and over 80,000 television pictures. Many mechanical tests of the moon's surface, laser ranging measurements, and other experiments were completed during this time.

If Soviets could do such a long lasting rovers, why can't we do it in 2019?

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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby mridulmm » 18 Jun 2019 08:56

rajsunder wrote:If Soviets could do such a long lasting rovers, why can't we do it in 2019?


Launch capacity. Compare the launch mass of Lunokhod 1 with Chandrayan 2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunokhod_1 [5600 KG]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandrayaan-2 [3800 KG]

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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby dinesha » 18 Jun 2019 15:47

Orbiter reached the launch port, SDSC SHAR Sriharikota on 15th June.
Image

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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Singha » 18 Jun 2019 16:25

Lunokhod for its day was claimed to have astonished murican designers with its longevity and capability.
some old school minds cooked up that rover for sure.

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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby prasannasimha » 18 Jun 2019 18:19

The rover is solar powered. Reactivation after 14 days of lunar night may not be possible though an attempt to revive it will be attmpted.

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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Katare » 18 Jun 2019 19:04

What really low temperature does? All frozen liquids should liquify, everything warmed up and ready to go when day comes back. What specifically is the technical holdup? Does electronics/semiconductors change irreversibly? Mechanically temperature delta shouldn't be an issue?
Any informed moulana please issue a fatwah

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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Katare » 18 Jun 2019 19:05

May be the battries?

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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Katare » 18 Jun 2019 19:07

I had my car battery frozen into a bulging hulk when temperatures hit -30F last winter. But a fully charged battery should be able to keep itself warm for 14 days

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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 18 Jun 2019 19:52

"Examples are them not planning to do an unmanned orbital test flight before the actual manned flight..."

There are two or three unmanned flights of the space capsule before the manned one.

From WIKI: Following two uncrewed flight demonstrations of the spacecraft, a crewed Gaganyaan is slated to be launched on the GSLV Mk III launcher in late 2021.

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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby A Nandy » 18 Jun 2019 21:48

Yeah direct to space not a good idea :D

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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby disha » 18 Jun 2019 23:08

rajsunder wrote:The moon rovers designed by Russia in 1970's have survived on moon for 322 days and 120 days.


Did you check out the heating source of Lunakhod?

rajsunder wrote:If Soviets could do such a long lasting rovers, why can't we do it in 2019?


Just a request to not inflict yourself with self-lacerating statements like above. Also request not to build a false straw man and proceed to compare against that false straw man and indulging in rona-dhona.

Have you thought through before you compared "days of operation":

1. What was the original mission parameters of Lunakhod-1? What are the current mission parameters of Chandrayan-2

2. What was achieved and what is achievable?

3. To achieve what Chandrayan-2's mission parameters - does it require more than the requisite mission days?

Why the focus on number of days? You remind me of my school buddies. I used to finish my exams in half the time and then there will be always somebody who will tell me that the other person was sitting till the very end and scare me to death on how well I would have done. Till the results come.

Above statement of yours is like that: Lunakhod-1 spent 300+ earth days, why cannot Chandrayan spend as much if not more? Not sure what adult complex you are planning to get scratched!

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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Vivek K » 18 Jun 2019 23:19

No need to react so defensively. We have all seen the longevity of the Mars Rovers too. So the question is innocent and perhaps natural for the layman to ask - it is therefore an attempt to learn what one doesn't know. The posters (including yourself) have clearly provided a wealth of information to understand.

And this type of information should be provided by ISRO to ensure that the message is driven home - that they have accomplished what others could not.

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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby disha » 18 Jun 2019 23:33

Katare wrote:I had my car battery frozen into a bulging hulk when temperatures hit -30F last winter. But a fully charged battery should be able to keep itself warm for 14 days


Katare'ji, catch-22 here. After day, there is long night and then there is day. To have the mission operate for say 'two lunar days', the system has to be designed to be effective at a minimum across 2 'day' and 1 'night' lunar time.

A fully charged battery has to spend energy inefficiently to convert it back to heat and keep the battery warm. Till the next charging cycle. At that point, the charging cycle should be long enough to recharge the entire battery pile. While due to temperature extremes the half life of the battery drops down precipitously. Put it this way, lander/rover has to survive 14 nights keeping itself warm, then has to recharge fully to perform its duties and again prepare to survive for 14 nights, but now the battery capacity has depleted. In nutshell, every cycle the number of effective days of work reduces.

Here is the rover details:

The rover, Pragyan (also Pragyaan), is a 6-wheeled vehicle with a mass of 27 kg that runs on 50 W of solar power and can travel up to 500 m at a speed of 1 cm per second. The rover communicates directly with the lander. the rover will hold cameras, alpha-proton X-ray spectrometer, and a laser-induced ablation spectroscopy experiment.


And I am sure that the boffins at ISRO would have thought through the above and come up with an optimal battery size/weight/volume that can be launched and serve the mission objectives. Once the primary mission objectives are met, secondary mission objectives can be taken up. Or the mission extended. Nobody is arguing against that.

For example, the primary mission objective of MOM was - "just reach there successfully" !!!

For Chandrayaan-2, mission can be divided into three phases - Orbiter/Lander/Rover. Orbiter mission life is 1 year while the Lander is 14 earth days and rover is designed for 500 mtrs.

This is a very well designed science mission.

If one has to compare, then the question one must ask is what will the rover achieve in 1 km of travel distance (remember that means it has to go for 3 lunar days or 42 earth days) that it cannot achieve in 500 m of travel distance (that means mission life is 1 lunar day or 14 earth days). If the answers are not specific or not contributing much to new knowledge, then why even bother?

Hence why complicate the mission for diminishing returns?
Last edited by disha on 18 Jun 2019 23:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby disha » 18 Jun 2019 23:46

Vivek K wrote:No need to react so defensively. We have all seen the longevity of the Mars Rovers too. So the question is innocent and perhaps natural for the layman to ask - it is therefore an attempt to learn what one doesn't know. The posters (including yourself) have clearly provided a wealth of information to understand.

And this type of information should be provided by ISRO to ensure that the message is driven home - that they have accomplished what others could not.


1. ISRO cannot provide any information for any out-of-field comparisons borne out of ignorance.

2. A genuine query will be a simple query - "Why is the mission life of rover set at 14 earth days?". However the poster in question brought up the query as follows:

The moon rovers designed by Russia in 1970's have survived on moon for 322 days and 120 days. If Soviets could do such a long lasting rovers, why can't we do it in 2019?


It is a simple straightforward comparison. If 'A' could do it 40 years back, why is 'B' not able to do it now?

3. In your own comparison, you are conflating Mars with Moon. Of course one must not confuse between two planetary bodies. Also, a rover designed by Nasa for Mars cannot be conflated with a rover designed for Moon by ISRO.

Coming to Mars rover (since you brought it up)., the Sojourner rover was

Designed for a mission lasting 7 sols, with possible extension to 30 sols,[2] it was in fact active for 83 sols.


My urge will be, after going there - what does ISRO plan to do? In short, what is the mission?


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