China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

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chola
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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 06 Jul 2019 15:50

https://mobile.twitter.com/RupprechtDeino/status/1145982609324949504

@Rupprecht_A
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These are allegedly the very first clear images of the PLAN Type 075 LHD under construction :-o

Quite interesting, the original weibo-account is already down:
(link: https://m.weibo.cn/status/4386974846167769) m.weibo.cn/status/4386974…

Image

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 06 Jul 2019 15:53

This is the chini shipyard dude who took the pictures and posted it in their social media:
Image

Any guess as to what will happen to him? lol

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 06 Jul 2019 16:18

With the new LHDs, there is the expected ramp up of naval helo types.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RupprechtDeino/status/1147023229304938496

@Rupprecht_A
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With the individual number '331' assigned, this Z-18F ASW helicopter on-board the aircraft carrier Liaoning, seems finally to be in operational service.

Image


https://mobile.twitter.com/dafengcao/status/1144763740270632960

dafeng cao
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Z-20 mockup aboard 055.

Image


^^^ Better known as the SeaCopyHawk.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 10 Jul 2019 16:13

Completely insane if accurate. Cheen would likely end up with 9 LHDs in short order. (Means a lot of helicopters and probably some VSTOL fighter/fixed wings as well.)

Unprecedented buildout.

https://mobile.twitter.com/HenriKenhmann/status/1148615265267044353

East Pendulum
@HenriKenhmann
Des sources locales indiquent que ce n'est pas 1 seul mais 3 porte-hélicoptères Type 075 qui sont actuellement en construction au chantier naval Hudong-Zhonghua à Shanghai. 2 lots de 3 bâtiments chacun seraient prévus aujourd'hui, un troisième en planification. A confirmer.



https://mobile.twitter.com/AlexLuck9/status/1148763661969661952

Alex Luck
@AlexLuck9
Rumours from #PLAN #LHD built in Shanghai. Apparently no less than 3 hulls ordered for parts, another batch of 3 to follow, a 3rd batch planned. This pleasingly tracks with my own speculation on the type and I am in the process of putting something down in writing over next days.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby brar_w » 10 Jul 2019 19:04

VSTOL and fixed winged fighters on LHD's? From where? Which ones?

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 10 Jul 2019 23:37

they are looking to build a kind of USMC MEU groups, and 1-2 will be hanging around off africa and in mediterranean to exercise with other navies, wave the flag, fight piracy and such good things.
they can also posture around taiwan and disputed islands and do mock landings.

shore parties will visit schools, repair orphanages, play tug of war & volleyball with local navy, raise toasts to friendship and such other white man things.

wolf warrior units can be embarked as protection cover for any sensitive BRI projects , as backup for the private contractors, contracted convicts and other militias deputed for direct security of work sites. any local warlord who kidnaps a chinese engineer for ransom or ideology will face the full wrath of the wolf warrior teams , heliborne support and ELINT resources of the LHD MEUs.

I am guessing they will look to establish two major naval bases in africa - perhaps sudan/eritrea and zanzibar/somalia. none of these are in massan orbit or have any moorings in western ideologies, so not tough to pay off all factions and setup a shop.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby kit » 11 Jul 2019 00:06

good to have competition for uncle! . despite usual bonhomie, Sam is busy beating up friends/allies and "enemies" alike , bbf "UK" s ambassador to US has been kicked out

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 11 Jul 2019 08:43

brar_w wrote:VSTOL and fixed winged fighters on LHD's? From where? Which ones?


Nothing official but the reason I wrote "probably" is because of reports going around the watchers community for years:

https://nationalinterest.org/feature/look-out-america-china-wants-its-own-vertical-takeoff-jets-15220

A few scattered reports have emerged in Western news outlets over the last couple of years regarding the J-18 V/STOL fighter, but newly available evidence lends additional weight to the theory that China has a third fourth generation fighter program (in addition to J-20 and J-31 that are well known already). The Chinese military press reported out in mid-2015 on the announcement of a contractual agreement between two major Chinese aviation industry entities to partner on the so-called “short takeoff project”. There had been a Jane’s report a couple of years back that was related to an interesting Internet photo.

...

To be sure, this tidal wave of current writing about V/STOL is, at least in part, related to the U.S. Marine Corps and its reasonably successful debut of the F-35B STOVL variant last year. However, the editor of the Chinese magazine Aerospace Knowledge saw fit to lead off a mid-2015 issue with some thoughts about a “Chinese STOVL” aircraft. He first discusses the Chinese aircraft carrier Liaoning’s relatively small fighter complement and suggests that future iterations will not exceed 50 fighters, but those numbers will not afford China the requisite firepower. He brings up the Falklands case, moreover, and notes that Great Britain’s force of Harriers prevailed even though the U.S. Navy allegedly predicted at the time that Royal Navy airpower was too weak. While professing no special knowledge about “whether the J-18 type [fighter] . . . exists or not,” he suggests that the urgency is high for Chinese naval aviation and the outlook bright for a Chinese STOVL fighter, concluding: “. . . perhaps in the near future, we will get some really good news. I hope that’s the case.”

Another report from about the same time in China Defense News did not mention the J-18 by name, but appeared in this official military newspaper under the headline “How Will China Develop a Short Takeoff Fighter?” This piece makes several interesting assertions, including that China has been working on V/STOL technology since the 1960s and also that Beijing apparently acquired a Russian V/STOL Yak-141 prototype fighter to tinker with and study back in 1994.

...

And what of China’s planned tilt-rotor transport? The same military publication summarized above also ran a 2015 story (by the same author) on the “Blue Whale”—along with a photo of a model from the Zhuhai airshow. The striking aspect of the design from the photo is that it has four engines (instead of two in the V-22 Osprey) mounted on two wings (instead of one on V-22). The article summarizes the expected characteristics of the Chinese design: a cruising speed of 538km per hour, a range of 3,106 km and the capability to heft 20 tons of cargo.


Of course, these could come to nothing.

But with that many LHDs (if those reports are true) then it is possible or even likely they have more than just helicopters in their pipeline.

If the J-18 and Blue Whale projects exist then they are probably copying the USN (yet again) in planning to augment their expected 6-10 fleet carriers with a mass of smaller flat decks like the US is doing with the Wasp and America classes.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 11 Jul 2019 09:11

Singha wrote:they are looking to build a kind of USMC MEU groups, and 1-2 will be hanging around off africa and in mediterranean to exercise with other navies, wave the flag, fight piracy and such good things.
they can also posture around taiwan and disputed islands and do mock landings.

shore parties will visit schools, repair orphanages, play tug of war & volleyball with local navy, raise toasts to friendship and such other white man things.

wolf warrior units can be embarked as protection cover for any sensitive BRI projects , as backup for the private contractors, contracted convicts and other militias deputed for direct security of work sites. any local warlord who kidnaps a chinese engineer for ransom or ideology will face the full wrath of the wolf warrior teams , heliborne support and ELINT resources of the LHD MEUs.

I am guessing they will look to establish two major naval bases in africa - perhaps sudan/eritrea and zanzibar/somalia. none of these are in massan orbit or have any moorings in western ideologies, so not tough to pay off all factions and setup a shop.


They are not kidding around with the MEU idea. They just launched their 8th Type 071 LPD from the same dry dock as the first 075 LHD. Each 071 can carry up to 800 marines along with helos and amphibious armor.

They are increasing the size of their Marines corps five-fold to 100000. Only the USMC would have more men among naval infantries.

https://thediplomat.com/2017/03/china-is-building-a-100000-strong-marine-corps/

Yes Singha ji, all this dovetails nicely with the spike in LPDs and LHDs.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby brar_w » 11 Jul 2019 09:18

chola wrote:
brar_w wrote:VSTOL and fixed winged fighters on LHD's? From where? Which ones?


Nothing official but the reason I wrote "probably" is because of reports going around the watchers community for years:

https://nationalinterest.org/feature/look-out-america-china-wants-its-own-vertical-takeoff-jets-15220



Garbage publication that IMO should be banned from being brought up in any serious Military discussion/forum. I haven't come across any credible evidence of them having a STOVL program. They need to perfect the basic GTE and get a half decent motor into their 5th gen aircraft before doing anything this fancy.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 11 Jul 2019 10:55

Why do I get the feeling either Taiwan or Philipines is now on the PRC hitlist and thats what those LHD's are for. When the CCP economy is going down, closed regimes generally go for a war. In 1962, after 15 years of Nehru rule after 200 years of British rule we were the most miltarily incapable nation. Now whover it is is going to get hit first. I suspect Uncle will let PRC to have 1 good military victory so that the rest of neighbors realize what a threat the PRC is.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 11 Jul 2019 11:03

they have no reason to attack taiwan. its the biggest conduit for investment and theft of western/japan/korean IP. rest assured their moles are so deep in taiwan, everyone who breaks wind is logged into a database in the mainland with timestamp and location data. the taiwanese elites run with both the hounds and hares.

philippines is a flyweight who cannot protect its own islands. and they are not about to let USN return to subic way. so its cool. all their elites are already compromised with china...like owning resorts that depend on mainland tourists.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 11 Jul 2019 11:07

brar_w wrote:
chola wrote:
Nothing official but the reason I wrote "probably" is because of reports going around the watchers community for years:

https://nationalinterest.org/feature/look-out-america-china-wants-its-own-vertical-takeoff-jets-15220



Garbage publication that IMO should be banned from being brought up in any serious Military discussion/forum. I haven't come across any credible evidence of them having a STOVL program. They need to perfect the basic GTE and get a half decent motor into their 5th gen aircraft before doing anything this fancy.


In general I would agree, Brar ji. As I said nothing might come of it but then like their current fighters they might make do with an uprated WS-10 model with even worse TBO and safety or get one from the Russians.

I'll say this: Chini rumors almost always pan out. I can't think of one that didn't to be perfectly honest. I've been following since the J-10/LCA flame wars nearly two decades ago when the J-10 was nothing but photoshops. It was vaporware until it wasn't.

The nationalinterest has its moments. It is an Amreeki alt-right pub with some fearmongering tendencies but being paraniod doesn't necessarily make you wrong. At least not all the time. The first report on the J-18 didn't come from them. From what I read, it was first reported by a well-respected Japanese paper the Asahi Shinbum circa 2011.

But you're right we should believe it when we see it.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 11 Jul 2019 11:11

Yes exactly many of these Closed leaderships do raise their popularity game, a successful military campaign- they will not a risk where the result is uncertain. Atleast not in first campaign till they get confidence in thier miltary. From Hilter, Stalin, Tojo, Mao all did. Xi will not be any different. They had the opportunity with India in 2012, but by 2017 they go convinced that it was too risky.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 13 Jul 2019 16:03

Some interesting pictures from some rehearsal for the big commie parade in October.

@Rupprecht_A
@RupprechtDeino
Impressive images taken by Cook Lee during the rehearsals for the 1st Oct. parade. Quite interesting, these two Naval Aviation aircraft - a KJ-200H/Y-8W and a Y-8GX-8/Y-9JZ - both assigned to the 2nd NAD/NTC have introduced a prominent PLAN flag + title and individual numbers.


Y-20A (current prod mark with supposedly WS-18 engines)
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KJ-200H (naval AEW)
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Y-9JZ (ELINT)
Image

KJ-500 (AEWC) and KQ-200 (ASW)
Image

Also bunches of J-20, J-16, J-15, J-10C from the rehearsal posted at OedoSoldier a Japanese watcher's twitter account.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 13 Jul 2019 16:46

^^^ The four-engined turboprop Y-8/Y-9 is the current jack-all-trades but as the the J-20 matures, it'll take over some of the heavier roles.

In the weight class right underneath the Y-8/9 is the two-engined Y-7 which has many variants for lighter roles.

So it is interesting that there is a Y-30 project for a transport that sits between the Y-20 and Y-9 in size.

Image

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I guess the reason for these things is related to efficiency of carrying certain sized things over range or patrol endurance.

Y-20 (4 jet C-17 sized)
*Y-30* (4 prop A400 sized)
Y-9 (4 prop C-130 sized)
Y-7 (twin prop AN-32/C-295 sized)
Y-12 (12-19 seater util, Do 228 sized)

IAF/IN have equivalents for all sans that Y-30 spot. All phoren except for the Dornier. I'd like to see us develop a local design in any of those classes to support our industrial base. The chinis are indigenous across the entire range so their budget stays in country.

And then there might be versions of the ARJ-21 and C-919 which could come into play later as fast jet options so even more local choices.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 17 Jul 2019 14:55

We might see 3 Type 075 LHDs being assembled side-by-side in the Hudong-Zhonghua sy in Shanghai later this year.

https://mobile.twitter.com/HenriKenhmann/status/1151186628276150272

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Est-ce que l'on pourrait voir apparaître bientôt cette scène au chantier naval Hudong-Zhonghua, avec 3 LHD Type 075 en construction côte à côte ?

Image


They are going heavy into the Amreeki concept of expeditionary or amphib assault groups. Having a chini ARG or ESG tooling around the IOR without an equivalent from us will not be a good thing.

How long have we been talking about the MRSVs? 2012? We had tenders a long time ago and had responses including proposals for Mistral, Juan Carlos and a LHD from Fincantieri. Then dead silence.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby kit » 17 Jul 2019 17:05

chola wrote:We might see 3 Type 075 LHDs being assembled side-by-side in the Hudong-Zhonghua sy in Shanghai later this year.

https://mobile.twitter.com/HenriKenhmann/status/1151186628276150272

East Pendulum
@HenriKenhmann
Est-ce que l'on pourrait voir apparaître bientôt cette scène au chantier naval Hudong-Zhonghua, avec 3 LHD Type 075 en construction côte à côte ?

They are going heavy into the Amreeki concept of expeditionary or amphib assault groups. Having a chini ARG or ESG tooling around the IOR without an equivalent from us will not be a good thing.

How long have we been talking about the MRSVs? 2012? We had tenders a long time ago and had responses including proposals for Mistral, Juan Carlos and a LHD from Fincantieri. Then dead silence.


all such chinese "expeditionary" forces need to be tailed by Indian warships from the entry of IOR to exit, just like what they do in SCS

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 30 Jul 2019 12:07

Cheen is recruiting a lot of carrier pilots.

https://mobile.twitter.com/knmccauley1/status/1155814170002165761

Kevin McCauley
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China has recruited 41 percent more cadet pilots for aircraft carrier fighter jets this year than 2018; Over 4,500 pilots passed initial selection round earlier this year

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 31 Jul 2019 15:20

^^^ Digging into this, it seems 800 from the 2600 pilots selected from the initial screening last year went into carrier flight training. Going by the same rate, there would be around 1400 going into the academy this year. Not sure if all would go through the whole program where they get to launch and trap. But in a decade's time -- when they could have 4 carriers -- they would have a pool of over 10000 pilots to choose from?

Ambitious and well-planned program. Something the Russians never did. At least not on this scale.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby kit » 31 Jul 2019 16:57

chola wrote:^^^ Digging into this, it seems 800 from the 2600 pilots selected from the initial screening last year went into carrier flight training. Going by the same rate, there would be around 1400 going into the academy this year. Not sure if all would go through the whole program where they get to launch and trap. But in a decade's time -- when they could have 4 carriers -- they would have a pool of over 10000 pilots to choose from?

Ambitious and well-planned program. Something the Russians never did. At least not on this scale.


looks like they want to take over the entire world, forget the US

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 01 Aug 2019 09:41

kit wrote:looks like they want to take over the entire world, forget the US


Hard to take over the world with the US 7th Fleet on your doorstep.

But a carrier battle group or marine expedition force could spill into other oceans now and then.

They are looking to create more jobs in the MIC and military now that Trump is clobbering their export engine.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 01 Aug 2019 10:02

Chini carrier heading out for another sea trial. Must be pretty close to commissioning. About four years after keel was laid down.

https://mobile.twitter.com/MatiasERuiz/status/1156705134354632706


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China’s first home-grown aircraft carrier the Type 001A set for new round of sea trials as it prepares to enter service (link: http://dlvr.it/R9RbbC) dlvr.it/R9RbbC

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 01 Aug 2019 10:06

DDM exists in other countries too:

Image

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby hnair » 01 Aug 2019 11:51

A standing pool of 10,000 naval aviators for 4 carriers? We will see a lathi charge on chinese naval aviators fighting with each other, who are desperate for airtime on any available fighters.

chola, go easy on this incessant houbara-hunt mode please

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby kit » 01 Aug 2019 15:40

chola wrote:
kit wrote:looks like they want to take over the entire world, forget the US


Hard to take over the world with the US 7th Fleet on your doorstep.

But a carrier battle group or marine expedition force could spill into other oceans now and then.

They are looking to create more jobs in the MIC and military now that Trump is clobbering their export engine.


for now, but it would be interesting to visualize a scenario where uncle has a Chinese carrier fleet at is eastern board ( increasingly likely ! )

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 02 Aug 2019 15:52

hnair wrote:A standing pool of 10,000 naval aviators for 4 carriers? We will see a lathi charge on chinese naval aviators fighting with each other, who are desperate for airtime on any available fighters.

chola, go easy on this incessant houbara-hunt mode please


LoL. The imagery is hilarious. I get your point and will ease, Sir. There are literally dozens of news/rumors/pictures in the chini watching community every week, I only pick and post a few that I find interesting. Their carrier program is most interesting now. (I realized I haven't posted anything about PLAAF fighter aircraft in ages even though developments among those dominate most forums.)

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby AdityaM » 05 Aug 2019 07:52

Very informative twitter thread on Chinese naval expansion activity. Now secret base in Cambodia
https://twitter.com/indopac_info/status ... 94306?s=21

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby souravB » 08 Aug 2019 03:31

Chinese Shang class SSNs detailed. This channel is a treasure trove of information on sub-surface warfare. :D


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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chiru » 08 Aug 2019 13:29

Saurav that's a great resource for all things related to undersea warfare. Capt. Jive turkey's videos on cold waters game are fun and informative. He tries to keep it balanced and realistic. Highly recommended.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 08 Aug 2019 17:14

souravB wrote:Chinese Shang class SSNs detailed. This channel is a treasure trove of information on sub-surface warfare. :D

Great information. Especially on catching it when its rolling out the towed array. Like a fishing video. lol

The history piece is fascinating too. The Han class with poor nuke shielding can only operate for a few weeks like regular DE? Wonder how many were sacrificed to cancer and sterility from all that radiation.

They made two copies of the 093, one copy of the 093A and then mass produced the B variant. They did that kind of iteration with their frigates and destroyers too. So not surprising but still interesting they did that with SSNs too.

We're scheduled to have six initial subs in the SSN program. I wonder if we'll iterate over the course of the program or go with one design for all six. The SSBN program has the initial boat Arihant being smaller than the later vessels in the class. Our followup class will be bigger still.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Rakesh » 15 Aug 2019 04:03

All suggestive news onlee. Nothing confirmed.

China's Troubled Aircraft Carrier Proves Why It's So Hard To Build Them
https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... t-carrier/
14 Aug 2019

China’s First Homemade Aircraft Carrier Is Having Some Problems
https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... t-carrier/
09 Aug 2019

Another sea trial for China’s first home-grown aircraft carrier ‘suggests technical problems’
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/militar ... ft-carrier
06 Aug 2019

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 15 Aug 2019 14:39

Rakesh wrote:All suggestive news onlee. Nothing confirmed.

China's Troubled Aircraft Carrier Proves Why It's So Hard To Build Them
https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... t-carrier/
14 Aug 2019

China’s First Homemade Aircraft Carrier Is Having Some Problems
https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... t-carrier/
09 Aug 2019

Another sea trial for China’s first home-grown aircraft carrier ‘suggests technical problems’
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/militar ... ft-carrier
06 Aug 2019


It went on sea trials for a week, came back and then went to sea again after a few days. That is what suggested a problem. Conjecture is they found something they didn't like and immediately went back to sea to iron it out.

It was out monkeying around in the Yellow Sea for two weeks with its hotel/barracks ship. Barracks ship coming along usually mean personnel-intensive tasks or training.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RupprechtDeino/status/1161892676859572224
@Rupprecht_A
@RupprechtDeino
The barrack ship '89' has returned to Dalian but the carrier itself seems to be still out and so - the cruise started on 1. August - the Type 002 is now already out for two weeks.
So what comes next?


Not only that but a brand new Type 052D destroyer is now occupying the carrier's usual docking station suggesting it might not be back any time soon.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby RKumar » 15 Aug 2019 15:28

On a lighter note, it might be broken mid sea and will take its own sweet time to return :rotfl:

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 16 Aug 2019 08:04

RKumar wrote:On a lighter note, it might be broken mid sea and will take its own sweet time to return :rotfl:


LOL. Kuznetsov-class ships usually travel with a retinue of tugs.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 17 Aug 2019 17:42

Here we go, posted on August 17th.

Rudder broke and it's been going around circles for two weeks.

Image

Image

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Philip » 18 Aug 2019 12:40

Sensible Kuz op. protocol! Nevertheless China has decided to build the largest navy in the world to be able to challenge the US and all other Asian powers including India simultaneously.Its navy has been give top priority- in fact overwhelming priority over the army and air force.
In a decade's time, the permanent presence of the PLAN in the IOR operating from Paki and satellite ports will pose a huge threat to the IN.

Likewise it is past time that the traditional landlubber's doctrine and attitude of the Indian establishment looked to the great threat from the sea.It was from the sea that the European powers invaded the IOR and eventually conquered India.History cannot be allowed to repeat itself.The IN and IAF too must get at least 1/3rd. of an enlarged def. budget cake, with emergency capital acquisition allotted to the IN and a lesser extent to the IAF. The numbers of subs is woefully small and emergency acquisitions are the need of the day.

chola
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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 24 Aug 2019 02:30

The new chini carrier was making these inexplicable concentric circles out in the ocean for weeks.
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But it looks like it is back in port with a lot of woosy workers filing to get the hell off.
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Some possible tire marks from aircraft landing or touch-and-gos.
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Could be a major flaw where the Type 001A gets stuck running in circles.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Khalsa » 24 Aug 2019 06:23

I don't think there is anything wrong with the carrier. Those circles seem to be a deliberate high speed shake off manouvere.

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None of the pictures show the carrier taking weeks to complete the circle.
You can sing all the lullabies you want to .... to keep yourself uninformed.

But they have a desi carrier out there and being tested.
The number of civilian staff will probably be seen when our Vikrant goes out for shake off and induction to the Navy.

I am really disappointed to see that we have a thread where we go overboard poo poo-ing the chinese efforts.

have the heart to appreciate the enemy progress and the brains to outsmart him

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 24 Aug 2019 08:08

^^^ Khalsa ji, possible problems were first raised by the articles in the Admiral's post not us in this thread.

Granted, I took some liberties and had some fun. The truth is without some fun, I am less inclined to post in this thread these days. The chini watch has become something akin to drinking from a fire hydrant and fun to follow as a third party observer with news and pictures practically every day. But posting that drumbeat here can become irritating as a rakshak. So I look for some levity these days. lol

@ Filipov. True to form, Kutznetzov class always sail with a tug.
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