Army strikes terror camps in PoK

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 04 Oct 2016 19:01

Guys, one question. I am pretty sure both Indian army, Indian govt must have considered several future scenarios that would likely unfold in the aftermath of surgical strikes. But is the current circus where TSP completely denies and some Indian oppositions scum joining in; something that crossed anyone's minds? Speaking for myself, I thought India would take the diplomatic route for whatever its worth, and an occasional covert strike here or there, but this scenario never crossed my mind. TSP denies after their pigLeTs cause havoc and get vaporized, but this is a whole new ball game.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 04 Oct 2016 19:32

yensoy wrote:Looking back, I think we were all played.

Reading this bit led me to a thought. I think we can safely say that the news of the strike came from the blue. If we go back to the forums a week ago, it was a mood of anger, frustration and a sense of resignation that this was going the usual way- kadi ninda followed by dosas and it would soon fade away like Pathankot. This is why when the DGMO announced the surgical strike, we saw an outpouring of emotions- immense joy, relief, patriotism, jai ho ityaadi.

Baki emotions have followed the exactly opposite trajectory. Smug condescension, usual bluster, false flag, atmi kuwwat wagairah. After the strikes, they turned into shock, despair, fury, denial and now down hill skiing. All of it accompanied by furious denials, LoC safari, fake videos, outlandish claims that they had to drop.

Now we reacted the way we did probably because we DID NOT expect these strikes to take place, at least not so soon after Uri. Afterall hadn't we been told that armed forces were not prepared and that we needed to buy time and that tough diplomacy was the way to go, economy was too precious yada yada...

What's got the bee in my bonnet is why Bakis are reacting the way they are. Surely, as if Congress spokies claim that IA performed same strikes in 2008, 2009, 2011 and 2013 (In an interview, Gen. Bikram Singh confirms that IA indeed carried out "surgical strikes", he does not mention any dates, nor the frequency, nor the scale of these Ops.), Bakis would have expected such a retaliation and shored up their defences. At least the jihadis would have been moved back deeper into the occupied land till TSPA felt reasonably assured that IA reaction had passed. But Bakis reacted as if the ground was pulled from beneath their feet.

Did they react the way they did because India publicly owned the strikes? Likely.

Or did they react the way they did, because they were caught totally unawares at the sheer scale and ferocity of it, which was much bigger than what they expected going by previous experiences?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Oct 2016 19:38

Kashi wrote:
What's got the bee in my bonnet is why Bakis are reacting the way they are. Surely, as if Congress spokies claim that IA performed same strikes in 2008, 2009, 2011 and 2013 (In an interview, Gen. Bikram Singh confirms that IA indeed carried out "surgical strikes", he does not mention any dates, nor the frequency, nor the scale of these Ops.), Bakis would have expected such a retaliation and shored up their defences. At least the jihadis would have been moved back deeper into the occupied land till TSPA felt reasonably assured that IA reaction had passed. But Bakis reacted as if the ground was pulled from beneath their feet.

Did they react the way they did because India publicly owned the strikes? Likely.

Or did they react the way they did, because they were caught totally unawares at the sheer scale and ferocity of it, which was much bigger than what they expected going by previous experiences?

Defeat for the Pakistani army is the public humiliation combined with loss of honour and dignity (echandee) with respect to india in front of the world

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 04 Oct 2016 19:38

Or did they react the way they did, because they were caught totally unawares at the sheer scale and ferocity of it, which was much bigger than what they expected going by previous experiences

That is what happened in my opinion

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 04 Oct 2016 19:47

shiv wrote:Defeat for the Pakistani army is the public humiliation combined with loss of honour and dignity (echandee) with respect to india in front of the world

Oh I agree. A public humiliation seems to be chief cause. But their reaction also suggests that they were caught with their pants down, a combination of shock and humiliation that this could have happened to them. Much like the aftermath of the OBL strike.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Oct 2016 19:54

Kashi wrote:....
Or did they react the way they did, because they were caught totally unawares at the sheer scale and ferocity of it, which was much bigger than what they expected going by previous experiences?

a co-ordinated simultaneous strike across a 250 km front is qualitatively different from the single incident punitive missions we have read about over the years and referred to by UPA people & Gen Bikram Singh.

even if the components of the surgical strike are individually no more than the isolated strikes of yesteryear, taken together, their impact is more than the sum total of their effect. because the very act of co-ordinating the strikes signifies intent like nothing else does.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Oct 2016 19:56

In 1965 Pakis converted the story of their attack on J&K into a narrative that India wanted to occupy their land. And because India never intended to occupy Pakistan the Paki lie works. They claim they won because India failed to fulfil an objective that they made up for internal consumption to retain echandee.

I don;t know how many of you saw Gen (retd) Bakshi on TV after the strike. Earlier he had been hopping mad and after the strike he was really fired up and said "Where are your nukes? Bring them on" That was a deep deep square rod up Paki backside. They have been making nuclear threats so often that Pakis believe that India will be nuked if they attack. So when there were covert strikes in teh past teh Paksi surely did not admit them because
1. No proof of Indian attack
2. Need to retaliate

India for its part never publicized these attacks because it would be seen as provoking Pakistan and risking nuclear war. This was then called "Asymmetric war under a nuclear umbrella"

But hats off to him. this is what Modi did and it was not just that we were "played" in the aftermath of the Uri attack. the entire world and the Indian Pakistan pasand opposition were all played. Modi looked soft and effete - holding Sharif's hand, unable to retaliate for Pathankot; inviting Pakis to teh air base. here was a leader who was worse than mousemohan. the whoel damn country was baying for blood and the opposition were probably sniffing an opportunity to damn him if he did and damn him if he didn't.

The only special thing about the surgical strike was the announcement that it happened. That brought Paki chaddis down instantly and they were standing there totally nanga-nanga - dicks dangling limp in the wind.

If they accept it the Paks army will have to retaliate. if they deny it then Indians are liars which is what they are saying anyway. Guess what they chose.

They will try and hit back I do advise ppl to read Ata hasnain's article
http://swarajyamag.com/insta/pakistani- ... en-hasnain

GShankar · Post by **GShankar** » 04 Oct 2016 19:58

CRamS wrote:Guys, one question. I am pretty sure both Indian army, Indian govt must have considered several future scenarios that would likely unfold in the aftermath of surgical strikes. But is the current circus where TSP completely denies and some Indian oppositions scum joining in; something that crossed anyone's minds? Speaking for myself, I thought India would take the diplomatic route for whatever its worth, and an occasional covert strike here or there, but this scenario never crossed my mind. TSP denies after their pigLeTs cause havoc and get vaporized, but this is a whole new ball game.

Per my recollection, in Kargil, paki conclusion was something like - "If our army had helped those mujahideen, then we would have won. Goddamn ameer khan for stopping our army" - splatter some AoA and Mash-Al / Insh-Al here and there to make it more realistic.

That says that Tactical Brilliance always comes with lots of deniability. I am not surprised per se about paki reaction but about Indian hand about video and a so called high value target captured. The hum-int should be really great if it is really a high value target. OTOH we may or may not have high res sat cover and that could have been the primary intelligence.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 04 Oct 2016 20:05

Perhaps the past response happened after a substantial gap when the general vigilance level on the loc had gone down on the bakes side. Compared to that the current response was quick and while the bakes were on FULL alert and at maximum vigilance. A successful response involving a cross border raid under such a situation pricked their ego balloon.

Secondly, the bakis by making all kinds of noise before the raid, e.g clearing airspace, f16 exercises, etc, were sending us a signal that any response would be met with escalation. This was just to deter us and claim victory. They had no intent or preparation to respond. Basically their bluff was called and they had no hands to show.

Thirdly, they expected international powers to rush in to defuse the situation arising out of the Uri attack. Not only no one rushed in after Uri no one rushed in after India hit back. In an instant the shield that had so long protected bakis was lifted and their international isolation was there for all to see.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 04 Oct 2016 20:11

arun wrote:X Posted from the STFUP thread.

Spokesperson of the Dynastic Nehru-Gandhi family led Congress Party, discloses that the Indian Army carried out cross LoC raids in 2008, 2009, 2011 and 2013.

Congress confirms noiseless surgical strikes

Note the language which congies used.

"These decisions are taken by the military and at that time the political leadership thought it was not necessary to take ownership of the decisions. But it should not be presumed the army took the beating in the past without any response."

So if military took these decisions how can they take ownership in the first place. It means in absence of direct orders from GOI commanders in the field had to take decisions risking their entire career.

How can they distance themselves from such national security decisions?

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 04 Oct 2016 20:17

Aamne Samne with Ex Army Chief Bikram Singh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEumzFp2Kqs

In this interview, Gen Bikram Singh says the same thing. The call on the strikes were basically taken by local commanders. He repeatedly speaks about political will and how that makes these strikes so different from the past.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 04 Oct 2016 20:23

pankajs wrote:Perhaps the past response happened after a substantial gap when the general vigilance level on the loc had gone down on the bakes side. Compared to that the current response was quick and while the bakes were on FULL alert and at maximum vigilance. A successful response involving a cross border raid under such a situation pricked their ego balloon.

Secondly, the bakis by making all kinds of noise before the raid, e.g clearing airspace, f16 exercises, etc, were sending us a signal that any response would be met with escalation. This was just to deter us and claim victory. They had no intent or preparation to respond. Basically their bluff was called and they had no hands to show.

Thirdly, they expected international powers to rush in to defuse the situation arising out of the Uri attack. Not only no one rushed in after Uri no one rushed in after India hit back. In an instant the shield that had so long protected bakis was lifted and their international isolation was there for all to see.

So now imagine how this looks to a mango apdul.
1. The Baki army bombast "we are FULLY prepared to meet any agression and will give a befitting reply" - That is down the pakhana.
2. "We are a NOCLEAR bum state. They are not for show wonlee" - Empty words. Did not stop India
3. "US/UK/UN/KAnada/..../China is on our side" - Nope. Not a peep out even the "iron birather" on Indian attack.

How does the bak army explain the above to the mango apduls without launching atim bums at us? OTOH, how does it square things before the jeehardies and its own lower ranks without talking revenge in one form or the other who must be seething with anger on being humiliated by the yindus on their own territory?

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 04 Oct 2016 20:41

Some FUD from the media, pre-surgical strikes:

-Air strikes are a tempting option; however, India lacks the intelligence and surveillance capabilities that will ensure the targets struck are actually militant camps.
-Another possibility is a large-scale covert campaign targeting Pakistani terrorists and their facilities. But as is well known, India lacks the wherewithal and would require several years of preparation to run such operations.
-Actually, the only way to deal with the dilemma confronting the country is to persist in a combination of policies.
http://thewire.in/66874/uri-india-milit ... -pakistan/

-Many experts also feel that the “window” for a strike visibly shrinks with each passing hour after an attack, as the international community begins to exert pressure to India to show restraint.
-India will need to be clear about having clear targets and coordinates of terror camps and terror leaders, as any civilian casualties will spark further repercussions.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/u ... 124763.ece

I think our intelligence capabilities were a lot better than publicly known or estimated.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 04 Oct 2016 20:43

Belated well done to the government.

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 04 Oct 2016 20:45

Everybody loves to be on the winning team. Watch for the Kashmir "uprising" to fizzle away as the boys realize how India made kabab of their liberators. This is one major reason to go public. Besides the mainland Indian public who have been itching for blood (and a view of the 56" chest), "misled" Kashmiri youth will get a blow by blow account of how the pigs got pwned. When they realize they have betting on the losing team, expect many folks to start mouthing "Bharat mata ki jai".

williams · Post by **williams** » 04 Oct 2016 21:17

I think Modi-Doval strategy is to let all the traitors come out and demand for proof. Once that is done, nice jingo video is going to come out . Then these traitor brigade need to run for their political lives. No one cares about what Pakistan comments on the these strikes. We need to take care of these traitors first. They are bigger enemies than combined Pakistan, China and Jihadis.

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 04 Oct 2016 21:28

I guess the Video will be released 'at a time and place of our choosing'.

Only when the ISPR finishes huffing and puffing about 'fake' strikes and manages to convince the apduls that the Pork army is still ready to mount camels and mount assaults on Lal Qila, should the video come out. Keep the ISPR pigs on their toes.. Keep the hag Lodhi blundering in the UN, keep the Sharif's shalwars brown.. Most of all, keep punching the Papistan Armee senseless..

Not sure what makes the Pork apduls believe that the Baki border defences are impregnable.. They have <10% of the defensive border infra that India has and yet the ISPR has the gall to go on air and pump hot air about their 'invincible' defences and the paki public laps it all up..

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 04 Oct 2016 21:33

sudhan wrote:I guess the Video will be released 'at a time and place of our choosing'.
...
Not sure what makes the Pork apduls believe that the Baki border defences are impregnable.. They have <10% of the defensive border infra that India has and yet the ISPR has the gall to go on air and pump hot air about their 'invincible' defences and the paki public laps it all up..

Many a Paki commentator has said - How can the Indians cross the LoC? Don't they know there is a fence with barbed wire? Don't they know it is electrified?

Hey guys, I have some news for you! It's our fence. We know where the gates are, we have the keys to the locks, and we control the switches to turn off power.

I can't believe this type of reasoning is being taken seriously.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 04 Oct 2016 21:53

The very fact that Aseem Bajwa had to allude to the Martial Bak Fauji, runner-up of the zabar-e-kabz operation, universally lauded for downhill skiing blah blah, guarding the LOC and "not even a parinda can maro a parr heiyar", tells everyone that these bums are quite useless as far as soldiering is concerned.
The icing on the cake was his referral to the "going up in the parachute" line. Typical harami pakjabi bluster with 400% lahori logic.
A-hole just did not have any convincing arguments.
Towards the end, as he was desperately trying to sum it up, his last line about, "Put a finger on the map and my helicaaptar will phly joo there" was the final nail in the coffin.
The dhimmi gora and east asian journalists who were part of the group wouldn't know where to take the chopper to. For most of these guys,pakistan is a punishment posting, where booze and wimmen are hard to come by. A lot of these couldn't find pakistan on a map if their life dependend on it (Well they could, but they surely won't be able to find Muzzafarabad, or Rawalakot or Hajipir pass, what to talk of Bhimber / tatta pani / Leepa or Kel)

Aseem Bajwa thinks he's fooled some dhimmi sad old journalists - that's what they thought C Fair memsaab was too.
Ploody Phools!

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 04 Oct 2016 21:59

Even if a video is released it will be marked as a A grade bollywood production. For them it's a moon landing which never took place.

Any effort to pacify such an audience is a waste of time.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 04 Oct 2016 22:00

rpartha wrote:In any democracy, it is normal for opponents or naysayers or doubters to ask for proof. I think we just have to deal with it or ignore it. Naming and shaming few journalists is not going to make it go away as they will keep on raising them. Let these guys raise all the questions/doubts and once we release the proof as some from govt seems to indicate, once for all these morons will keep quiet.

Exactly. Sometimes these questions, doubts and opponents are necessary for healthy debates and vibrant democracy. They should be answered, and things should move on. It is naive to expect in a 1.2 billion population everyone is going to think alike.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 04 Oct 2016 22:04

shiv wrote:In 1965 Pakis converted the story of their attack on J&K into a narrative that India wanted to occupy their land. And because India never intended to occupy Pakistan the Paki lie works. They claim they won because India failed to fulfil an objective that they made up for internal consumption to retain echandee.

I don;t know how many of you saw Gen (retd) Bakshi on TV after the strike. Earlier he had been hopping mad and after the strike he was really fired up and said "Where are your nukes? Bring them on" That was a deep deep square rod up Paki backside. They have been making nuclear threats so often that Pakis believe that India will be nuked if they attack. So when there were covert strikes in teh past teh Paksi surely did not admit them because
1. No proof of Indian attack
2. Need to retaliate

India for its part never publicized these attacks because it would be seen as provoking Pakistan and risking nuclear war. This was then called "Asymmetric war under a nuclear umbrella"

But hats off to him. this is what Modi did and it was not just that we were "played" in the aftermath of the Uri attack. the entire world and the Indian Pakistan pasand opposition were all played. Modi looked soft and effete - holding Sharif's hand, unable to retaliate for Pathankot; inviting Pakis to teh air base. here was a leader who was worse than mousemohan. the whoel damn country was baying for blood and the opposition were probably sniffing an opportunity to damn him if he did and damn him if he didn't.

The only special thing about the surgical strike was the announcement that it happened. That brought Paki chaddis down instantly and they were standing there totally nanga-nanga - dicks dangling limp in the wind.

If they accept it the Paks army will have to retaliate. if they deny it then Indians are liars which is what they are saying anyway. Guess what they chose.

They will try and hit back I do advise ppl to read Ata hasnain's article
http://swarajyamag.com/insta/pakistani- ... en-hasnain

Shiv sir, I usually agree with you but I have to rebut one point. We did not do strikes either surgical or any other kind of this scale, scope and reach ever before. As someone who knows a little bit about what has been done before and also the consequences to the commanders who did it , let me tell you that there have been a very few instances of shallow local ops by Para SF. Crossing LC was a rare event. This is a whole diff ballgame.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Oct 2016 22:08

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Shiv sir, I usually agree with you but I have to rebut one point. We did not do strikes either surgical or any other kind of this scale, scope and reach ever before. As someone who knows a little bit about what has been done before and also the consequences to the commanders who did it , let me tell you that there have been a very few instances of shallow local ops by Para SF. Crossing LC was a rare event. This is a whole diff ballgame.

Good to hear that.

Pakis are stunned into silence then

Primus · Post by **Primus** » 04 Oct 2016 22:26

CRamS wrote:Guys, one question. I am pretty sure both Indian army, Indian govt must have considered several future scenarios that would likely unfold in the aftermath of surgical strikes. But is the current circus where TSP completely denies and some Indian oppositions scum joining in; something that crossed anyone's minds? Speaking for myself, I thought India would take the diplomatic route for whatever its worth, and an occasional covert strike here or there, but this scenario never crossed my mind. TSP denies after their pigLeTs cause havoc and get vaporized, but this is a whole new ball game.

Absolutely, a true paradigm shift.

We are most vulnerable when we think we are secure.

Just over a week ago, while sitting in the hotel shuttle to get to the airport in Milan for our return trip home, SHQ was hit by a Chinese gang who distracted her and switched her backpack on the seat next to her with an empty one. Our passports, credit cards, money etc all gone. It was done professionally, right under her nose and only when I pointed out to her a minute later when I boarded the bus that her backpack was 'different' did she realize it had been switched. We had been vigilant all through the two weeks in Italy, but never expected Chinese thieves on a hotel shuttle bus.

The Indian Army distracted the Bakis by all the noise and cacophony for several days, sent in SF commandos when they probably expected an aerial assault (if any), did a thoroughly professional job of destroying the terror camps and came back without the enemy realizing anything had happened. It is no wonder echandee is in tatters and it is hurting them beyond belief.

However, IMHO the biggest difference this time is that we've not only done the unprecedented, but we are letting the world know we've done it. In Baki parlance this would be 'chori aur seenajori' and they are furious. Their bluff has been called and since there is no way they can retaliate, the only echandee saving option for them is to absolutely deny it ever happened.

The world will never be the same again. The effects of this action from India and more importantly, its public acknowledgement - nay broadcast will have far reaching effects on the global WOT, IMHO.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 04 Oct 2016 22:46

The jihadi groups are stunned because in addition to the expendable foot soldiers, they've probably lost Motivators and handlers, who are I am pretty sure hard to come by in those launching pads.

Launching pads surely have the handlers who give the cannon fodder jihadi, one final sermon and motivation before they send them to their death.
IA took these guys out - THAT must have hurt the Jihadi groups.

In addition to the H&D loss they themselves had to undergo, when surely a lot of their cannon fodder guys must have escaped, ran away directly to their villages and told everyone about bad bad hindooz and dajjals and the bashing they just got!
One can imagine that the fervour for Jeehard must have taken a nice big huge dent for sure!

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 04 Oct 2016 22:48

williams wrote:I think Modi-Doval strategy is to let all the traitors come out and demand for proof. Once that is done, nice jingo video is going to come out . Then these traitor brigade need to run for their political lives. No one cares about what Pakistan comments on the these strikes. We need to take care of these traitors first. They are bigger enemies than combined Pakistan, China and Jihadis.

Agree except my rx would have been a little different for this scum not just run for political lives.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 04 Oct 2016 22:50

Posting this Twitter comment/image without my own comment/insinuation.

deWalker · Post by **deWalker** » 04 Oct 2016 23:00

Sid wrote:Even if a video is released it will be marked as a A grade bollywood production. For them it's a moon landing which never took place.

Any effort to pacify such an audience is a waste of time.

+1.

Showing proof to the Pakis would be like taking a pig to a wine-tasting. It'll be a complete waste of time and effort.

Let me give you some examples of where we gave proof: and it resulted in zilch acknowledgement / action / benefit to our narrative

Proof of Kargil occupiers being regular infantry (ID cards etc)
Proof that Mushy's call from China during Kargil was intercepted
Proof that Kasab came from Pakistan. In fact, they went so far as to hide the parents, officially denied their existence, pointed to an Indian village named Faridkot, etc.
Proof of Pathankot attacks

What did all that proof get us? All that we will achieve by showing "proof" is that we will get into another "haan-naa" debate with the pigs.

We have a democracy with accountable leaders. I'm confident in their public utterances. Kejriwal et al may be looking for political mileage, but they also know what rules apply to public statements of political leaders.

D/

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 04 Oct 2016 23:11

SwamyG wrote: Exactly. Sometimes these questions, doubts and opponents are necessary for healthy debates and vibrant democracy. They should be answered, and things should move on. It is naive to expect in a 1.2 billion population everyone is going to think alike.

Rubbish because this is premised on the assumption that those casting doubts are merely seeking answers. What we are witnessing is not a "vibrant democracy", but a bunch of shameless eunuchs hell bent on scoring political points by colluding with the enemy. I can understand the "we also did it" by Congoons, even though many army officials said the scale and depth and political cover for this is unprecedented. But nevertheless, I will let Congoons make some noise on this count because their taunts against ModiJi's 56" chest was busted and they had to say something. But questioning the veracity of the strikes while hiding behind democracy and "expose TSP perfidy" garbage? G'mme a break. And except for that low life traitor Ajay Shukla puke, no other army expert is even hinting at foul play. And note this low life's zeal in trying to prove the falsity of the surgical strike claim. He is definitely compromised. He is not on a democratic mission.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Oct 2016 23:24

Gagan, Do we have any pictures of Hafiz Suar's progeny who were to succeed him?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 05 Oct 2016 00:36

ramana wrote:Gagan, Do we have any pictures of Hafiz Suar's progeny who were to succeed him?

That is Suar-in Law Kha-Liddh of Hafeez Pig. He is the prize we might have taken as HVT in last SST= Surgical Strikes on Terrorists.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 05 Oct 2016 00:37

I'll have to google it...
Talha Saeed is the boy's name
Then there is his brother in law, who is 2nd in command or very high up. Exact situation like Profit and his SIL, who formed shia sect

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 05 Oct 2016 00:43

pankajs wrote:Perhaps the past response happened after a substantial gap when the general vigilance level on the loc had gone down on the bakes side. Compared to that the current response was quick and while the bakes were on FULL alert and at maximum vigilance.

This is the part that still gets me....GOI did not wait for their vigilance level to decline- that would have been an easier strike. Instead, GOI hit them at their peak vigilance level...all with F-16s landing on roads in Giglit and chucking flares over cities...high alert and everything. And yet the only injury on India's side was caused by a landmine. Speaks volumes as to their preparedness and alert levels.

As to the matter of releasing proof, I am not that bothered. There might be some who genuinely want to see something and for them, some evidence would suffice, but they arent the ones stridently demanding proof. Those who are shouting the loudest for proof, within in India and within Pakistan, clearly they will find reasons to debunk any proof that's put out there.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 05 Oct 2016 00:52

Kashi wrote:
yensoy wrote:Looking back, I think we were all played.
why Bakis are reacting the way they are. Surely, as if Congress spokies claim that IA performed same strikes in 2008, 2009, 2011 and 2013 (In an interview, Gen. Bikram Singh confirms that IA indeed carried out "surgical strikes", he does not mention any dates, nor the frequency, nor the scale of these Ops.), Bakis would have expected such a retaliation and shored up their defences. At least the jihadis would have been moved back deeper into the occupied land till TSPA felt reasonably assured that IA reaction had passed. But Bakis reacted as if the ground was pulled from beneath their feet.

Did they react the way they did because India publicly owned the strikes? Likely.

Or did they react the way they did, because they were caught totally unawares at the sheer scale and ferocity of it, which was much bigger than what they expected going by previous experiences?

Excellent observation. Some if my unorganized thoughts on this:

1. Previous surgical raids were covert, while these were overt. Even if everything is same, the latter have a strategic effect. Accordingly, the enemy's response has to be different.

2. Pakistan state actors employed tactic of hush up and denial against overt strikes. It perhaps worked -did even the division commander hear about it from his staff? Never heard thus never happened thus no need to react.

3. Pakistan state actors are employing same tactic against a strategic raid. It suits us! As strategic effect was achieved.

4. In future we can consider making false claims to counter false denials.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 05 Oct 2016 01:15

SriKumar wrote:Instead, GOI hit them at their peak vigilance level...all with F-16s landing on roads in Giglit and chucking flares over cities...high alert and everything.

SriKumar ji
They didn't land F-162 or JF-17s on the road. They only land Mirage IIIs and F-7s and I think a Karakoram trainer there. There is a stretch of the M2 motorway between Lahore and Sheikhpura that they have used several times in the past to show road landings, which is located here. 31°44'5.29"N, 74° 5'19.76"E
The airstrip is the stretch between Khokharki Mallian and Dhewriwala, where you see a cemented area which was supposed to be a toll booth, but is used to park the aircraft. The planes land and take off towards the west only, because there is a overbridge on the east.

They have deployed F-16s or JF-17s to Skardu at different times, but these aircraft are very few and they don't want to fly them unnecessarily for fear of damage. Their spares stocks are known to be very poor, and they have known issues with serviceability across their fleet.

brvarsh · Post by **brvarsh** » 05 Oct 2016 01:42

May be its my wish but is it not possible that in such a strike where foot soldiers are involved forget videos as proof but some live ammo were caught and brought back to India too? While Bakis finish their record of un-impregnablity & doubters in India spit out their personal venom is when the live catch spills the details on National Television? I am also the believer of chances of Osama being caught not killed was very high.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 05 Oct 2016 02:04

Gagan wrote:
SriKumar wrote:Instead, GOI hit them at their peak vigilance level...all with F-16s landing on roads in Giglit and chucking flares over cities...high alert and everything.
SriKumar ji
They didn't land F-162 or JF-17s on the road. They only land Mirage IIIs and F-7s and I think a Karakoram trainer there. There is a stretch of the M2 motorway between Lahore and Sheikhpura that they have used several times in the past to show road landings, which is located here. 31°44'5.29"N, 74° 5'19.76"E
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Using highways as makeshift runways was a concept from cold war days when Europeans feared their airfields will be wiped out during the first week of confrontation with Soviets. They estimated 40% - 60% attrition of air-assets during a full scale war, that too within the first few weeks.

But in the case of Indian subcontinent, we neither have the capacity or the will power to cause such large scale destruction to rely on roadways in the first place. We have enough ALG to accommodate or disperse our assets to mitigate any risk from a lucky shot.

GShankar · Post by **GShankar** » 05 Oct 2016 02:09

brvarsh wrote:May be its my wish but is it not possible that in such a strike where foot soldiers are involved forget videos as proof but some live ammo were caught and brought back to India too? While Bakis finish their record of un-impregnablity & doubters in India spit out their personal venom is when the live catch spills the details on National Television? I am also the believer of chances of Osama being caught not killed was very high.

Pakis may only agree something happened if the narrative helps them because agreeing would mean they acknowledge there were 1) terrorist camps, 2) it was launch pad, 3)x no. of pigs are flamed and 4) paki army did idly squat.

It is also possible pakis cleared all evidence or taking the journos and others to different locations.

However, not providing video evidence in hindsight gives us an option to conduct more surgery as long as pakis are denying it and we can continue to claim we did something.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 05 Oct 2016 02:39

Another important assessment can be made from the Surgical Strike Op of 28/9.

IA conducted this op along the entire 250km front of Ghulam Kashmir proper... from Bhimber in the south to Kel in the North. IA mounted this op in a matter of 10 days, starting cold, after the Uri attacks. IA went in and hit multiple targets, and came out 4 hours later without losing a single soldier. Finally, IA did all this at a time when TSPA was on highest alert after having themselves issued the provocation at Uri.

This was so fast, far-ranging, and operationally successful I can scarcely believe it.

What does this say about our capabilities to seize Ghulam Kashmir + Skardu + Gilgit in a larger-scale, rapid military operation, clear these territories of resisters, and establish well-defended positions to hold them against PA counterattacks? Can all Pakistan-occupied parts of Kashmir be reclaimed in a lightning war in under 2 weeks? Would 2 weeks be quick enough to avoid unsustainable escalation by Pakistan or its allies like PRC? If not, then how quick would we need to be in order to present the world with a fait accompli that others would judge too costly to try and overturn?

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 05 Oct 2016 02:39

Gagan wrote:
SriKumar wrote:Instead, GOI hit them at their peak vigilance level...all with F-16s landing on roads in Giglit and chucking flares over cities...high alert and everything.
SriKumar ji
They didn't land F-162 or JF-17s on the road. They only land Mirage IIIs and F-7s and I think a Karakoram trainer there. There is a stretch of the M2 motorway between Lahore and Sheikhpura that they have used several times in the past to show road landings, which is located here. 31°44'5.29"N, 74° 5'19.76"E
The airstrip is the stretch between Khokharki Mallian and Dhewriwala, where you see a cemented area which was supposed to be a toll booth, but is used to park the aircraft. The planes land and take off towards the west only, because there is a overbridge on the east.

Please, no 'ji' for me. I know about the planes landing, I took a little bit of license with that. Prior to India's strike, there was a news report that talked about closing Gilgit/Northern Areas airspace to civilian traffic where a Pakistani official said that road-blocks on Karakorum highway were being removed to allow for mil- flight landings. I 'expanded' on that.

So they were not able to provide _any_ security to the terrorists and their handlers along the _entire_ 250 km stretch of the LOC in spite of the alert level being high...along a border that is live. I'll bet their terrorists are asking the same question. I recall their refrain in the aftermath of India's Burma operation was 'Pakistan is not Myanmar'. Seems like it is worse. Myanmar was one or two camps, relatively close to each other. And they had no border alerts.