Electric vehicle and power storage

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disha
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Post by disha »

Cyrano wrote:It makes a lot of sense to go nuclear+ solar + wind in that order, for powering the transportation sector. If we solve some important issues in a few years wrt storage and recycle the batteries very very strictly then electric propulsion transportation seems feasible for road and even sea.
+72 except for wind. Wind power has higher carbon footprint than coal. Also it comes in the path of migratory birds. Instead of wind, if tidal waves can be harnessed, or the difference between the ocean surface temperature and the very cold water depths, then that would be great.
I remain a bit sceptical about hydrogen and bio fuels.
Hydrogen is 3x more energy dense than Gasoline. So if new materials can be developed that can store hydrogen at a very very high pressure and are as light as a gas tank, then the hydrogen becomes viable. For example snow mobiles in remote places. Or using hydrogen fuel tank to supply energy in siachin (the byproduct is water).

On the bio-fuels, the only viable option seems to be bio-methane. Cows being an example of an efficient bio-digester.
Last edited by disha on 28 Jun 2023 02:46, edited 1 time in total.
disha
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Post by disha »

Vayutuvan wrote: Stay tuned. Biofuels mean not only Ethanol. CH4 is the answer. I would put the preference order as nuclear + bio-methane + Solar.
+72 here too.
Wind power requires too much maintenance of the Wind mills and machinery. Solar, ofc, has the problem of recycling the Silly-con.
Note that wind power has higher carbon footprint than coal.
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Post by disha »

V_Raman wrote: Tesla model 3 for India is a dream car - it has 300+ mile range in seattle weather. India - the range should hopefully be atleast 200+ miles with the full A/C requirements - that is a great range for India if they can ruggedize it for the road conditions
The way Indians travel is they need a dhaba at every 150 km (or 75 miles). And as it is the drivers are not asked to start the AC until the shaheb is in just to save some gas. So that will go for the charge as well. Even if it is solar charged at someone else's cost. All one has to say is that the meter of AC is running and it may not last long and immediately ppl will start conserving the AC runtime.

With full AC on (or in winter climes, with full heater on), the range impact is some 15-20%, that is, an actual range of 250 miles (on advertised 280-300 miles) is managed to 200 miles. That is almost 320 km in all road conditions.. With 5 pit stops (and charging at each stop), one can cover the Delhi to Mumbai in 36 hours.
Jayram wrote: The range is dependent on the amount of batteries packed into it which in turn drives the price of the car. So I expect range to be calibrated based on price point in India after they decide what makes sense in an Indian context and the number of charging stations. So Delhi to Mumbai is 900 miles by road so they would need at least 3 maybe 4 charging stations enroute including both starting and ending points.
Or rather the amount of power density in terms of kWh is packed into the battery pack. Another way to look at above calc is, lets say 200Wh/km or 1.75 kWh for 10km or 17.5 kWh for 100km. So your 320 Km range will require a battery pack of say 60 kWh (and meeting all kind of road conditions incl. Indian conditions of AC).

So how much can battery both in volume and weight is needed for 60 KWh? Or differently, what is the cost per KWh? Prior to Tesla, the cost of battery per kWh was $300 or $18000 (for 60 kWh) and now it is approx $150/Wh or $9000.

The inflection point will be when the battery price drops below $100/Wh, with current trends, it appears to be 2025.
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Post by Vips »

disha wrote:
Note that wind power has higher carbon footprint than coal.
Dishaji, please elaborate.
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Post by hgupta »

disha wrote: Note that wind power has higher carbon footprint than coal.
No it doesn't. That is a myth & fraud perpetuated by coal proponents.

https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2021 ... d-turbine/
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Post by Vayutuvan »

Vayutuvan
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Post by Vayutuvan »

Comments not allowed on the website? There are no references neither.

By the way we are making progress - good progress - in second generation biogas plants. Ny the end of this year, I wil have some good news to share.
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Post by Vayutuvan »

Partners of our company at this webpage.

http://www.primove.in/partnersc-in-progress/
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Post by hgupta »

Vayutuvan wrote:@hgupta ji

What about this?

https://stopthesethings.com/2023/06/09/ ... -droughts/
You are changing the goal posts of the conversation. My post was regarding the fallacy that wind turbines emit more carbon dioxide than coal power plants.
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Post by Vayutuvan »

@hgupta, coal power is the most polluting. If lower CO2 emissions are the only metric for comparing, coal power always loses for obvious reasons.

Good rain cleanses the air of particulate C. But NOx and H2S cause "acid" rains. It is a complex system. Compartmentalizing leads to bad green policy.

By the way, there are no references in that "yale" article. It is not a shcholarly article.
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Post by Pratyush »

https://www.forbes.com/sites/christophe ... enewables/

Apr 28, 2021,

This forbes report is quoting research done on the CO2 production of wind energy.

The article quotes that the CO2 footprint of wind is 1% of coal and 2% of Natural Gas.

The article also has a lot of other information regarding different processes for solar, wind etc. Along with the plans for achieving a net zero.
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Post by Pratyush »

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9360340/

Published online 2022 Jun 22.

This is a report published on government of US website. It's quite detailed.

Section 2.1 deals with impact of wind energy.
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Post by Vayutuvan »

Pratyush wrote: The article quotes that the CO2 footprint of wind is 1% of coal and 2% of Natural Gas.
NG is fossil fuel. BioMethane is C neutral. Let us not bring fossil fuels into the comparision.
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Post by Cyrano »

Wind does indeed have some important problems. Needs powerful magnets made using rare earths like Neodymium. Needs tons of concrete to erect them, the fiber glass blades cannot be recycled as efficiently, if at all. Needs cables to connect to the main grid and causes load balancing problems due to its low power erratic output. Needs maintenance if they don't turn, burn outs if they turn too fast.

On top of all this, recently German co vestas confessed they exaggerated the efficiency of their turbines by 10-20%. That's terrible given all the above. Wind farms are a huge EU level scam running into 100s of Billions of puiblic subsidies to set up, and then guaranteed prices to buy their output.

I don't care for CO2. At 400 ppm or 4000 ppm IMPO, makes no difference to the planet. You are free to believe what you want to. I don't care for the climate either, but I do care for the environment, biodiversity, pollution in all of its many forms, and prefer simpler living closer to nature, low or no meat diet, energy security and old fashioned human development. Starting with pregnant women's nutrition, infant and child health, girl's education until 18 must be == to boys education ie 100%. I believe when the basics improve, people naturally care for their surroundings more. It's a long journey, I'm willing to work for that future and invest in it.

This climate crisis, urgency, disaster p0rn, Greta-ism IMO ranks right up there with Eugenics in terms of how utterly wrong and inhuman the west can be while spouting all imaginable good intentions for human "progress".

So electric power is good for me for India's energy security. Affordable energy is a sine qua non for our progress. The rest is a con game set up by the west, one that India is playing reasonably well at the moment.
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Post by Cyrano »

Bio-methane could be a reasonable source. Instant use for cooking, lighting etc is fine. But to use for transportation needs high compression ie increase energy density while losing heat - see no contradiction there?! (compression of gases is always exothermic as Boyle discovered and Lavoisier later expanded before getting guillotined :( ) and then we need to be careful and creative to see what the overall thermal & mechanical energy efficiency end to end. For example, what do you need to produce X tons of bio methane if you started on a new earth like planet?

Some things that look good in a segmented way may not hold up so well when you take full life cycle into consideration.

Hydrogen is perhaps even trickier than CH4, being the smallest atom, it can seep through metals, gaskets etc and compression achieved with high energy expenditure will of course give high energy density but such high pressure will also make storage, filling, carrying and bring it into a combustion chamber a lot more challenging.

One of the worlds oldest companies Air Liquide was my client, they have been literally making money out of thin air for over a century. Despite investing in Hydrogen tech for decades they don't have a decent working solution, and if they haven't cracked it, I suspect neither has Linde or any US co. besides some experimental prototypes.

The first problem is however, finding a source of H2. Could be underground pockets, or fossil fuel by product. If anyone is telling you "but water is H2+O onlee saar", then you have 2 options. Either slam his head with a copy of Shriver & Atkins, then Morrison & Boyd and while you are at it, finish him off with a Resnik & Halliday. Or reach out to me, I have a bridge to sell you :rotfl:

But science evolves in irregular progressions. May be i'm wrong, who knows. Please do some research and do share what you found.
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Post by Cyrano »

disha wrote: Cyrano'ji, people do not understand high school chemistry and then the worst of the batch become journos.
I asked a snobby environment activist journo I met at a party once, if she can take medical advice from me or if I can do a surgery on her for any problem. She recoiled in disdainful horror saying "I know you never studied medicine, it's none of your business, if you try you'll be in jail"
And I replied "for exactly for the same reason, you should not be talking about climate etc. Because may kill I person and go to jail, you can kill millions, and nothing will happen to you." She was not my type anyway ;)
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Post by Vayutuvan »

Cyrano wrote: For example, what do you need to produce X tons of bio methane if you started on a new earth like planet?
Let me take your quaetions in the reverse order.

We are not starting on a new earth like planet. So that hypothetical is out unless you are proposing it as gedanken experiment. You are welcome to the calculations of a complex dynamic non-linear system. The answer is already known - 42.
Bio-methane could be a reasonable source. Instant use for cooking, lighting etc is fine. But to use for transportation needs high compression ie increase energy density while losing heat - see no contradiction there?!
That is is not relevant as long as I show that I can run a closed system that is energy net positive. That is how yo can make money. If it not economically feasible, the only reason could be that you lose energy.

The only economic source of H2 (if that is what we are interested in) is CH4. All other processes involving H2O produce very expensive H2.

Obviously tanstaafl
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Post by Cyrano »

gedanken experiment and tanstaafl - like the Germans are now finding out :D
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Post by disha »

hgupta wrote: No it doesn't. That is a myth & fraud perpetuated by coal proponents.
https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2021 ... d-turbine/
Thanks for putting the yale climate link. One thing to note is that the person launches into a tirade against coal, calling it dirty etc without any proof and then goes into CO2 as the major GHG (which it is, but things are also complicated with CFCs, methane etc). I would tend to ignore anything coming out from Yale or Harvard or Oxford or Cambridge. Just pinch your nose at their stinking analysis and move forward.

First of all, I am not coal proponent. I am a nuclear energy proponent. Second, I did investigate wind turbine for personal use like this https://www.tesup.us/product-page/atlas ... for-houses, and later installed lots of PV (Solar). Accounting for 5 Hr of Solation and ensuring that all the roof area is best utilized. I prefer to have Solar over Wind. For very good reasons.

So yes, wind power is an exotic hobby. Germany cut over to wind and now is buying coal based power, gas peakers and the worst of it all, nuclear power from France. Germans are strategically stupid.

----

Pratushji, thanks for the link. As I read it, it shows that Wind farms generate only 35% of installed capacity. So Vips'ji here is my own analysis (hopefully better than that of the yale elite)

Let's say that wind power generates at 1/3rd (33%) of installed capacity (Link by Pratyush'ji already indicates it at 35%, so we can use 1/3rd of install capacity). That means, 2/3rds of the rest comes from other sources. Like Coal. Or Gas based. Which generates CO2

Right off the gate, wind power is now only 33% less GHG (CO2) generator. That is, if your installed capacity is 100 MW, the 66 MW comes from coal or gas based power generators. Remember, you cannot promise your customer 100 MW and deliver only 33 MW. It is like ordering a plate of idly with 3 idlis and you get only 1. The restaurant owner cannot say, we cooked only 1 idli.

Now here is the rub. The wind power is very very very erratic. At least with Sun, it rises every day. So one can calculate average Solation (incidence of solar energy per day) and plan accordingly. Wind is not like that. It is very erratic. Even at places where Wind flows regularly.

So how can wind power serve as base load or peak load? Unless it is backed up by a power grid which is always power deficient. In India it still works, since if wind power comes online, areas with power deficiency gets an extra hour or two of electricity. Otherwise that area is load shed, since there is not sufficient base load to go along and not enough of peakers (gas based which are costly anyway). Think of hot sunny days when A/Cs have to run. With wind power coming online, some areas will get 20 hrs of electricity rather than 18 hrs of electricity. But again per capita power consumption is already very low in India and hence every drop of power counts.

----

I would like to break "Power" down into 3 parts:

1. Installation
2. Generation
3. Distribution

Wind power generation is tricky. That is, it cannot be counted for base load or peak load. Sometimes it will jeapordize the grid itself. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49309691.

The sun does shine brightly on summer days and when the A/Cs have to run, the PVs will produce energy. Peak demand, peak output. That is an example of power is available for utilization while it is needed the most. Wind does not behave like that.

Coming to installation, the best wind farms are actually offshore. Areas which are not readily accessible. The largest off-shore wind farm with >1000 MW capacity is spread over ~400 sq km https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/01/huge-of ... -says.html.

Imagine setting up concrete bases some ~100 kms out in the sea and running the cables back. Just for the steel, high quality coal is used to reduce the iron oxide to iron and generate tons of CO2 in the process. Same with making cement and concrete and the energy cost to install all that several kilometers out at sea.

And how does one maintain those wind farms spread across 400-600 square kms? The CO2 emitted while doing the maintenance over 20 years life time itself can be used to generate some energy locally.

In the Indian case, one can argue that the dry mountain ranges of Sahyadri with black rock solid basalt cliffs can provide solid foundation into which the base of wind mill can be drilled into. Over 100s of kilometers one has to cart equipment up the range, install and later maintain it. What is the cost consideration and what is the CO2 emission for the energy spent in setting it up?

Lastly distribution. The best locations for generating power from wind is not necessary the places which can also house both residential and commercial power consumers. Imagine a floating population of Mumbai spanning 600 sq. km out there in the middle of sea some 80-100 kms offshore.

All the above require some more number crunching, but wind power is going to be niche and will *not* replace the "dirty coal power" anytime soon or even later. In effect the 33% CO2 advantage one gains with wind power is quickly dispensed in installation and maintenance cost (cement, steel, carbon fibre, turbines, magnets etc).

---

For the Indian conditions, every village with a bio-gas plant coupled with roof top solar will go a long way to address the power deficit locally. And a smart grid can provide the energy necessary using base load from both coal and nuclear power.
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Post by Pratyush »

Disha,

An excellent breakdown of issues with CO2 emissions and the limits of current renewable energy technology.

What is shocking to me, is that nuclear is not a preference for anyone who is interested in CO2 emissions control or reduction.


There was a you tube discussion on electric cars conducted by top gear between Chris Harris and someone from UK national grid a few years ago.

Link is attached for reference. That was an educational discussion. Something that will add value to this thread as well.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Post by Pratyush »

At a more philosophical level. I have been thinking.

As a carbon based lifeform. Is it even possible for humanity to reach a net zero CO2 emissions society?
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Post by Cyrano »

Yes, if we let the lefty-ecoterrotists rule the world. One of their stated goals is de-growth and paleo lifestyle to unburden the planet (by getting rid of non white non developed humans). Once that is achieved just a matter of time when a nuclear war gets triggered and humanity will join the list of the 99.99% of species that ever lived on earth and have gone extinct.
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Post by Cyrano »

Excellent write-up Disha ji.

Even solar is way less effective since peak domestic and public (street lighting) loads occur in mornings and evenings when the panels are least productive. Unless coupled with storage capacity ie expensive batteries they are not very effective, especially as we go further from the equator.

The less said about Germany and EU the better. And France is once again the village idiot due to it's inept leaders and is getting screwed.
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Post by KL Dubey »

Pratyush wrote:At a more philosophical level. I have been thinking.

As a carbon based lifeform. Is it even possible for humanity to reach a net zero CO2 emissions society?
Yes, it is. There is nothing in physics, chemistry, or biology that prevents it.

All known forms of life are carbon based, and they are all just part of the carbon cycle and do not create net CO2 emissions into the air on their own.

Humanity is different - not because of being a "carbon based life form" - but because it has many technological needs that require carbon-based molecules/materials.

The present CO2 problem is not some profound philosophical problem, it is simply because of one mundane practical choice made 200 years ago -
making carbon-based materials using petroleum (i.e., carbon pulled out from under the ground and emitted into the air without an obvious route to put it back in the ground). Petroleum is liquid (or gas), already broken down into relatively simple molecules with high energy content, and is economically attractive to use. Humanity did not turn to renewable carbon at that time because most of it is solid, less energy-intense, and more complex to break down into usable forms economically.

In theory (and increasingly, in practice) Prithvi and Surya provide overwhelmingly more renewable (net non-CO2 emitting) resources than all of humanity needs. Harnessing these resources and disengaging from above entrenched unsustainable practices is the challenge. As a last resort, one can even use the CO2 in the air as a resource and use it to produce technological molecules/materials. Even before that, there are plenty of other renewable materials to use.

Technologically pretty much all the pieces are in place and undergoing continuous improvement.

There are still the questions of geopolitics, economics, and ultimately the willpower of humanity as a collective to do it without conflicts.
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Post by disha »

Cyrano wrote:...
And I replied "for exactly for the same reason, you should not be talking about climate etc. Because may kill I person and go to jail, you can kill millions, and nothing will happen to you." She was not my type anyway ;)
Aiyo Cyrano'ji, you opened her up, poured lithium salt on her and spoiled the electricity ... :lol:
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Post by Cyrano »

Oh man, they will soon start demanding safe spaces from climate deniers like me !
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Post by disha »

Here is big news from Toyota. Given that Toyota is generally a very careful company and not subject to hyperbole, this is significant:

https://news.yahoo.com/toyota-newest-br ... OCxrQW2u_6
Toyota’s newest breakthrough could be the ‘kiss of death’ for gas-powered cars — and could hit the market as early as 2027

...

Findings for lithium-ion batteries will result in increased battery life and shorter charging time, common concerns among prospective EV buyers. Current EVs allow for approximately 330 miles on one charge, while the updated battery could handle up to 621 miles.

Solid-state batteries would take that even further, allowing for approximately 745 miles on one charge. ....
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos- ... 023-06-13/

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos- ... 023-06-13/

This is indeed big.
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Post by nachiket »

I really hope Toyota or someone is able to create a commercially viable vehicle which uses a solid state battery soon. For too long it has seemed like one of those technologies which promises a lot but is perennially 5-10 years away from being a reality. Meanwhile Li-ion tech has plateaued and we need something better.
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Post by vera_k »

It should be nuclear, like how Einstein's car was long ago.
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Post by Mort Walker »

nachiket wrote: 25 Jul 2023 05:38 I really hope Toyota or someone is able to create a commercially viable vehicle which uses a solid state battery soon. For too long it has seemed like one of those technologies which promises a lot but is perennially 5-10 years away from being a reality. Meanwhile Li-ion tech has plateaued and we need something better.
I would advise caution at this stage as details are unknown.

1. Charge time 10 minutes = 600 seconds. Assuming battery capacity is 90 KWHr = 324 MJoules. Fast chargers are rated at 480V, therefore current = 1125 Amps. In the US, Level 3 DC fast charger current capacity is about 600 Amps.
2. Has Toyota developed DC brushless motors in conjunction? Most all EVs today use AC motors with each motor having its own inverter (like Tesla); this results in higher loss converting from DC to AC. That would reduce loss and weight along with improving range.

From personal experience, I recently considered purchasing a Tesla Model Y a few months ago as in IMHO it is currently the best EV on the market. After testing, and seeing first hand significant range decrease of >20% using the air conditioning (compressor) when sustained daytime temperatures are 40C+, with frequent 300 Km trips, I decided that the battery technology isn't ready for use.

Solid state batteries will be coming, as we've seen in this Toyota teaser, but will be affordable for the middle class somewhere after 2028.
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Post by Jay »

From personal experience, I recently considered purchasing a Tesla Model Y a few months ago as in IMHO it is currently the best EV on the market. After testing, and seeing first hand significant range decrease of >20% using the air conditioning (compressor) when sustained daytime temperatures are 40C+, with frequent 300 Km trips, I decided that the battery technology isn't ready for use.

Solid state batteries will be coming, as we've seen in this Toyota teaser, but will be affordable for the middle class somewhere after 2028.
If the expectation is that BEV's need to behave exactly like ICE vehicles w.r.t to range and recharging times, then we are more than a decade away to reach it. But the current lot of EV's, especially the Tesla model 3, and Y are more than enough for the average family. The average driver in US drives 37 miles/day and a little more than 13k miles/year, and that number is even lower in India. Just for this discussion, I'll base the numbers on US driving habits. Every Tesla model 3, and Y are capable of charging this number of miles, overnight, on your 120v circuit on the home outlet. This is the same outlet which one uses to charge their phones of plug in a table lamp. Don't even need to upgrade the electric. On days where one needs 300km range, you just charge the car to 100% and every Tesla model can get you to 300kms or 186miles, on single charge, even when the temps are at 40C. The inconvenience will be when you have to drive more than 600 miles/1000 km, in a single day, and you are outside the tesla supercharger reach. I have did multiple trips in my Tesla model Y, in Summer and also during Winter without much issues. An EV would not work for people who like to tow a trailer/boat, or someone who does frequent 500+ mile trips who only stope to piss and get back on the road. For everyone else, there are zero to minor compromises, especially when you live, work, play, and travel around good charging areas.
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Post by Vayutuvan »

@Mort Walker ji, welcome back.
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Post by vera_k »

Mort Walker wrote: 31 Jul 2023 00:42 From personal experience, I recently considered purchasing a Tesla Model Y a few months ago as in IMHO it is currently the best EV on the market. After testing, and seeing first hand significant range decrease of >20% using the air conditioning (compressor) when sustained daytime temperatures are 40C+, with frequent 300 Km trips, I decided that the battery technology isn't ready for use.

Solid state batteries will be coming, as we've seen in this Toyota teaser, but will be affordable for the middle class somewhere after 2028.
I'm hanging on to my ice vehicles for similar reasons. Also waiting until other manufacturers besides Tesla get their act together. Tesla's great if you lease so you can wash your hands off any trouble with their products if need be. But not really for owning long term since the parts needed to repair are not available from Tesla.
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Post by sohamn »

I have a tesla and it has a claimed range of 358miles, I get around 320 miles in summer and 290 miles in winter. But the great part of EVs are that you charge at home and office and never have to go to a gas station again. I don't even think about charging as a hassle because its like charging a mobile phone. After owning an EV I can tell that the experience is so superior to a gas car that I will never go back to a gas powered car ever. The performance from quietness, acceleration, instant response and low CG gives EV a significantly superior ride. Also one thing to note in an EV is that you don't need to service the car because there are no moving parts.
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Post by sohamn »

People who want 1000 miles of range, would realize you don't want that big of a range because unlike gas you don't loose weight as you drive more. Carrying a bigger battery is carrying dead weight when you have lower charge left on the battery which makes the entire solution in efficient. You will not likely require more range since you charge at home, office and everywhere in between (e.g. super chargers or hotels or airports etc)
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Post by Mort Walker »

Vayutuvan wrote: 02 Aug 2023 11:40 @Mort Walker ji, welcome back.
Thank you Vayutuvan ji. However, I'm only here occasionally. Life & work are keeping me busy.
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Post by Mort Walker »

Jay wrote: 31 Jul 2023 02:07
If the expectation is that BEV's need to behave exactly like ICE vehicles w.r.t to range and recharging times, then we are more than a decade away to reach it. But the current lot of EV's, especially the Tesla model 3, and Y are more than enough for the average family. The average driver in US drives 37 miles/day and a little more than 13k miles/year, and that number is even lower in India. Just for this discussion, I'll base the numbers on US driving habits. Every Tesla model 3, and Y are capable of charging this number of miles, overnight, on your 120v circuit on the home outlet. This is the same outlet which one uses to charge their phones of plug in a table lamp. Don't even need to upgrade the electric. On days where one needs 300km range, you just charge the car to 100% and every Tesla model can get you to 300kms or 186miles, on single charge, even when the temps are at 40C. The inconvenience will be when you have to drive more than 600 miles/1000 km, in a single day, and you are outside the tesla supercharger reach. I have did multiple trips in my Tesla model Y, in Summer and also during Winter without much issues. An EV would not work for people who like to tow a trailer/boat, or someone who does frequent 500+ mile trips who only stope to piss and get back on the road. For everyone else, there are zero to minor compromises, especially when you live, work, play, and travel around good charging areas.

Given that we've had over 35 years of many very reliable ICE vehicle models, the expectation of automobile behavior wrt to range and refueling time is not an unreasonable expectation. Given Toyota's announcement, we're about about 4-5 years away, and many people will wait if they're paying $50K+ for a vehicle.

Driving habits for those between age 20-54, according to US DoT and auto industry is over 15,000 miles per year. If you live in the US west of the Mississippi River, but east of WA, OR & CA, you'll most likely be driving more than in that age group. With large national highways now being completed in India, some people object to the car culture, but much like the US, it is something which brings national unity and understanding. You can easily travel to states more than 300KM away to see the different geography, culture and temples. It's something where politicians can no longer divide people based on region and language. My family rents an Innova with driver to go where & when they want to go doorstep-to-doorstep.

In the US, the standard 120V residential circuit breaker rating is 20A, but older homes will be 15A. If nothing else is on that circuit, you may get between 1.4 KW - 2.4 KW power. The cost of getting the wall connector from Tesla is about $475 and getting a 240V/40A home connection has come down quite a bit with electricians doing it for $400-$800. It's not unreasonable if you're spending $33K-$55K on a car where you can get 40 miles range per hour charged.

Tesla's battery management system is excellent with it's heat exchange system between the battery and cabin. The high temperatures in the southwest US means you need to cool the cabin while on the road during due to the large amount of glass. This drains the battery significantly. Many people are getting really dark tinting of the glass, but if you travel in the north during the winter, it becomes harder to see plus it's illegal in some states.

At this time, the Tesla is a great commuting vehicle.
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Post by Mort Walker »

sohamn wrote: 03 Aug 2023 01:53 People who want 1000 miles of range, would realize you don't want that big of a range because unlike gas you don't loose weight as you drive more. Carrying a bigger battery is carrying dead weight when you have lower charge left on the battery which makes the entire solution in efficient. You will not likely require more range since you charge at home, office and everywhere in between (e.g. super chargers or hotels or airports etc)
Toyota, Mazda and now Volvo have studied and concluded that small batteries and hybrid vehicles are the way forward until solid state batteries take over.
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