VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 13 Jan 2019 00:02

Rafale Deal: Comprehensive data analysis of the cost proves that India has got a far better deal compared to 2007- Rohit Vats

With narrow political interests guiding the discourse on the subject, by both political parties and many ‘analysts’, the true picture has got lost. And deliberate misinformation is being peddled.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 13 Jan 2019 00:16

French Navy Chief to visit India amid Rafale row
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 852_1.html

Amid an ongoing controversy on the Rafale deal, French Navy Chief Vice Admiral Christophe Prazuck would be in India on a three-day visit to discuss ways to further strengthen military ties between the two countries. The visit, scheduled from January 7th to January 9th, is taking place when the Indian Navy is looking forward to buying 57 multirole fighter planes for operations from the aircraft carrier, while Rafale being one of the contenders along with Boeing of America and Saab Gripen of Sweden. "Vice Admiral Christophe Prazuck, Chief of the Naval Staff, French Navy would be in India and hold meetings with his naval counterpart Indian Navy chief Admiral Sunil Lanba," Indian Navy officials said. The French Navy operates the Rafale plane from its aircraft carrier. They had used them for conducting airstrikes in Afghanistan, Libya and other conflict zones. The French government has asked India to acquire additional Rafale combat aircraft for both the Indian Air Force and the Indian Navy along with the 36 planes that will start arriving in the country by the year 2020.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rahul M » 13 Jan 2019 12:59

Austin wrote:Rafale Deal: Comprehensive data analysis of the cost proves that India has got a far better deal compared to 2007- Rohit Vats

With narrow political interests guiding the discourse on the subject, by both political parties and many ‘analysts’, the true picture has got lost. And deliberate misinformation is being peddled.

excellent analysis by rohit, as usual.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Philip » 13 Jan 2019 22:05

Time is too short for any decision before the elections, esp. with the anti- Raffy lobby. The moot point though is the priorities of the IN.MCM vessels are zilch, inviting the simplest of assymetric warfare tactics by our endmies- mining our ports and bases, and our sub fleet requires urgent additions not to mention the 120+ ASW helos ..We've taken so long to build IAC-1 (13 yrs) that even if started tomorrow, 65K t IAC-2 would arrive only after 2030! By then far superior naval stealth birds from both east and west along with UCAVs would bd operational.Ultra- expensive Rafale- Ms woild be obsolete.

The 47 or so 29Ks are enough to field on thd two carriers VikA and Vikrant-2 for now.We're told that due to lift sizes the Raffy can't operate from them.BMos equipped Super Sukhois would be far more useful if based on land than Rafales , if that is the intention.Acquiring a few more for reserves easy esp. as the IN/ CNS are reporting smooth opserations now of 29Ks.Acquiring at least 8 Backfires would be far deadlier than a sqd. of Rafales.The new upgraded Backfires now being delivered to Ru will enable us to take thd fight to the enemy in his own backyard the Indo- China Sea.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 15 Jan 2019 00:43

X-Post from the International Aerospace Discussion thread.

France orders upgraded Rafale warplanes for $2.3 billion
https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... alflow+DFN

^^^^ 28 Rafale F4 (not full functionality though) variants being delivered for $2.3 billion. These are new build aircraft and not software/hardware updates on existing aircraft. These 28 new build Rafales work out to $82+ million per aircraft. Another 30 aircraft will be ordered in 2023 and will be at full functionality in the F4 standard. Full functionality will obviously be more expensive.

But the point to note is this. Infrastructure already exists and there is no need for additional expenditures to operate these birds. It is for this reason, that a follow on order for the Rafale will be significantly cheaper for India. However please note that the price that Dassault sells Rafales to the French Air Force will not be the same as they sell to other nations. But still, it will be cheaper.

#MoreRafalesforIAF :)

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Zynda » 15 Jan 2019 01:19

Well this livefist article is old, but it does state that current IAF rafales will be upgraded to F4 std as it when "arrives"...probably already included in the contractual agreement to upgrade 36 Rafales from F3R to F4.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/07/14696.html

The improvements under the proposed F4 standard, for instance, which was announced in March and is currently under discussion, will transfer to the IAF’s fleet when ready. Sources told Livefist that the F4 standard will focus not just on tweaks based on the Rafale’s combat experience in Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan, but also the first full effort to shorten and further simplify the time required to churn out a full-ops Rafale pilot. The IAF will be able to draw on any and all improvements made to the Rafale system.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 16 Jan 2019 04:36

CAG refuses to share Rafale audit; cites breach of Parliament
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 4ii0L.html

Last month, the Supreme Court had dismissed pleas challenging the deal between India and France for procurement of 36 Rafale jets, saying there was no occasion to “really doubt the decision making process” warranting setting aside of the contract.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kartik » 16 Jan 2019 17:34

Rakesh wrote:X-Post from the International Aerospace Discussion thread.

France orders upgraded Rafale warplanes for $2.3 billion
https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... alflow+DFN

^^^^ 28 Rafale F4 (not full functionality though) variants being delivered for $2.3 billion. These are new build aircraft and not software/hardware updates on existing aircraft. These 28 new build Rafales work out to $82+ million per aircraft. Another 30 aircraft will be ordered in 2023 and will be at full functionality in the F4 standard. Full functionality will obviously be more expensive.

But the point to note is this. Infrastructure already exists and there is no need for additional expenditures to operate these birds. It is for this reason, that a follow on order for the Rafale will be significantly cheaper for India. However please note that the price that Dassault sells Rafales to the French Air Force will not be the same as they sell to other nations. But still, it will be cheaper.

#MoreRafalesforIAF :)


Wrong!!

France is paying $2.3 billion just to fund development of the Rafale F4 variant

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 16 Jan 2019 18:22

Already posted in the International Aerospace Thread :)

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Philip » 18 Jan 2019 07:59

Hindu today, front page report by N.Ram alleges that the decision to buy 36 Raffys increased the unit cost by 41%.
Inside pages give alleged facts, etc.Someone kindly post thd link/ relevant key points.Don't shoot the towncrier! :mrgreen:

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 18 Jan 2019 14:51

^^dfi yusuf posted the article and mentioned that one interesting point in the new deal was no follow up clause or clause for no follow up

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby JayS » 18 Jan 2019 19:06

ArjunPandit wrote:^^dfi yusuf posted the article and mentioned that one interesting point in the new deal was no follow up clause or clause for no follow up


I have failed to find any official word on existence of Options clause or otherwise. News reports are contradictory. You will find many on both sides.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 18 Jan 2019 23:40

https://youtu.be/mb92ZWzBWME

Rafale Deal - Nitin Gupta 'Rivaldo' explains - Genius of Rahul Gandhi


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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 18 Jan 2019 23:54

Philip wrote:Hindu today, front page report by N.Ram alleges that the decision to buy 36 Raffys increased the unit cost by 41%.
Inside pages give alleged facts, etc.Someone kindly post thd link/ relevant key points.Don't shoot the towncrier! :mrgreen:

read manu pubby and iyerwal on this topic.

saar,

go here and see

https://twitter.com/Iyervval/status/1086142417055764483

someone has shamelessly lifted the entire "original" article from what these two have already written and that too, without any attribution and then added on their own ridiculous inferences and conclusions which are pure and bigoted fantasy.

if you copy from one its called "plagiarism" but if you copy from more than one, its called "original" research.

BTW, our own Rohit Vats has also written a very lucid article on the rafale deal.

I think it was quoted and linked a few pages ago.

also,

N Ram of The Hindu blatantly picks up the work of another journalist on Rafale to brand it an “exclusive”

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 19 Jan 2019 03:47

The Ministry of Defence has already issued a rebuttal to that lifafa piece....

Image

Image

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 19 Jan 2019 03:56

VIDEO

No, N. Ram, you are wrong on Rafale: Abhijit Iyer-Mitra's rebuttal to The Hindu
https://www.mynation.com/news/no-n-ram- ... ndu-plj42m

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 20 Jan 2019 15:25

Rafale - Nature of the India Specific Enhancements (ISEs)

The 12 list of Enhancement listed in blog by Vijainder K Thakur makes me believe these Rafale purchase are primarily for Special Delivery Vehicle

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Singha » 20 Jan 2019 17:19

More powerful engine
>> really? I thought there was no further upg planned to the current M88-3 engine ?

Radar enhancements
>> classified i suppose

Helmet mounted display
>> news to me the french AF does not use thales HMS?

Towed decoy system
Radar warning receiver
Low band jammer
SATCOM
Radio altimeter (CFIT avoidance?)
>> all of this should already be in rafale and spectra will continue to use sw upgrades

Ability to start and operate from High Altitude Airfields
10-hr flight data recorder
>> nothing big

Infrared Search and Tracking (IRST)
>> the OSF was already there but deleted on some rafales to save cost. due to lack on continued funds may not be as good as american IRST anymore. the thales "pirate" IRST for EF also seems not to be so favoured anymore.


Missile Approach Warning System (MAWS)
>> should be std in all rafales?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby abhik » 20 Jan 2019 18:35

^^^
Is there an official source with the exact details about the modifications, people are pulling stuff out of the mush. AFAIK the engine change is reportedly related to starting in cold (and high altitude?) weather.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Mihir » 21 Jan 2019 00:12

I wrote a piece pointing out some glaring error's in The Hindu's report for Newslaundry.

Five claims in The Hindu’s Rafale report that don’t quite add up
https://www.newslaundry.com/2019/01/19/ ... ont-add-up

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby JayS » 21 Jan 2019 00:37

abhik wrote:^^^
Is there an official source with the exact details about the modifications, people are pulling stuff out of the mush. AFAIK the engine change is reportedly related to starting in cold (and high altitude?) weather.

Its difficult to believe anyone these days on Rafale deal. But I do not remember anyone saying higher thrust engine so far. Its likely related to cold start.

These kind of changes could be accomplished (relatively) simple FADEC tweaks rather than needing any HW changes. I highly doubt there is any HW change. And any such enhanced thrust mode would have impact of engine life. In fact one can always trade of life for thrust thru FADEC mod.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby CRamS » 21 Jan 2019 01:23

JayS wrote:Its difficult to believe anyone these days on Rafale deal. But I do not remember anyone saying higher thrust engine so far. Its likely related to cold start.

You seem to be doing equal equal between Pappu and his slaves' claims and ModiJi & Co's claims. What is it about the latter's claims that you find difficult to believe?

I notice that protagonists, for e.g., Ajai Shukla, N.Ram & Co live in an echo chamber. While the defenders like say Abjijit Iyer Mitra, Minhaz Merhcant etc present their arguments as well as refute those of the protagonists.Has Ajai Shukla and Abjijit Iyer Mitra ever debated?

Mihir wrote:I wrote a piece pointing out some glaring error's in The Hindu's report for Newslaundry.

Five claims in The Hindu’s Rafale report that don’t quite add up
https://www.newslaundry.com/2019/01/19/ ... ont-add-up

Shah good job

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby fanne » 21 Jan 2019 01:25

Add 2 + 2, Rafale base prep money is 2 billion and then some India specific enhancement. I think, not all is still mentioned. Then also recall, our PAL was so open that all major powers knew where the 'maal' was. Perhaps French help is more than acknowledged and Raul baba is doing this drama less for election but more to get that info for his benefactors.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 21 Jan 2019 01:44

Mihir wrote:I wrote a piece pointing out some glaring error's in The Hindu's report for Newslaundry.

Five claims in The Hindu’s Rafale report that don’t quite add up
https://www.newslaundry.com/2019/01/19/ ... ont-add-up

Good job Mihir!

Rohit Vats has also come out with his own (excellent) piece....

Fact-Check: N Ram is lying in his The Hindu article about the Rafale Deal, here’s how
https://www.opindia.com/2019/01/n-ram-i ... heres-how/

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby souravB » 21 Jan 2019 02:00

CRamS wrote:Has Ajai Shukla and Abjijit Iyer Mitra ever debated?

I've seen one where AIM and Arun Shourie were. AIM got 25% of the talking time and by the end of the debate AS was at a loss of words. For anybody who haven't seen the debate yet



I've seen one in the early days Shukla was at Vishnu's show and he asked Shukla some return questions which Shukla was unable to answer.

There is a pattern where these debates are not conducted by Defence Journos which should be the case. NDTV and IT has some prominent ones in the business like Vishnu Som and Shiv Aroor. Infact they are not even called to take part upon the debate. The final words as a 'Defense Expert' is made by Shukla.

It was Vishnu Som who actually tweeted some of the ISEs. He got it from AIMs report that was published (it's a good read). So yes there is a credible source to know some of the ISEs.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby JayS » 21 Jan 2019 02:38

CRamS wrote:You seem to be doing equal equal between Pappu and his slaves' claims and ModiJi & Co's claims. What is it about the latter's claims that you find difficult to believe?


:roll:

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby CRamS » 21 Jan 2019 04:04

souravB wrote:
CRamS wrote:Has Ajai Shukla and Abjijit Iyer Mitra ever debated?

I've seen one where AIM and Arun Shourie were. AIM got 25% of the talking time and by the end of the debate AS was at a loss of words. For anybody.


I have seen that good debate before, but I am not sure I agree that Arun Shourie was as at a loss of words to AIM's last set of comments including his take on announcing deal Vs actually ratifying and signing deal. He nonchalantly dismissed AIM's arguments. All I could get from that interview is that the deal is extremely complicated, and each side can stick to its guns in a political slugfest. But one thing for sure, there is no smoking gun, except innuendos. And which side you are on depends on ideology. As a die hard BJP and ModiJi supporter, I cannot accept a giant nationalist like him will ever indulge in any criminal misconduct for any personal or other gain (I believe steadfastly that ModiJi did everything in supreme national interest), while ModiJi haters like Arun Shourie will continue to pick plausible holes in a maze of such complexity and will never be convinced, hoping against hope that something will stick and Rafale will be ModiJi's and BJP's Achilles heel in 2019. If there were no 2019 election, this Rafale cacophony will stop in a heartbeat.


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