VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Avinandan » 02 Aug 2020 01:01


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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby abhik » 02 Aug 2020 01:41

Vips wrote:
brar_w wrote:
It is consistent with how the Chinese classify their aircraft and generations.


Brarji they are free to call their jets whatever they want but they expose themselves as jokers when they try to impose their classification standards (calling Rafale a 3.5 Gen jet) over already accepted and credible ones which are followed by the rest of the world.


The whole generation concept is "imposed" by the US/west no?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby VKumar » 02 Aug 2020 16:13

One squadron of Rafale every year till the MCA is available

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby srin » 02 Aug 2020 16:17

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1289522079067332608?s=20 ---> HEADS UP: Air Marshal Raghu Nambiar's most detailed interview goes up 6pm. Every Rafale Q: politics, IAF enhancements, comparisons with China's J-20, why India's next foreign fighter contest is a pipe dream -- and why his heart is most set on LCA Mk.2.


I find the good AM's views on Rafale interesting. I went back and re-read the CAG report on the original 126 fighter MMRCA contest (not the 36 Rafale procurement). Rafale wasn't the best plane after Technical evaluations. It didn't meet all the ASQRs (even the CAG report complains about the ASQRs having design & technical requirements) - guess which one did, the Mig-35 ! Many of the ISEs (ex HMS) were part of other aircraft offers. It wasn't even lowest bidder compared to EFT. The Rafale should have been disqualified at each step - the amount of waivers is mind-boggling. A most charitable view would be that the AF had chosen Rafale and then created the contest, which then got bogged down for all the obvious reasons.

Not talking about the 36 aircraft which OTOH has been executed quite well.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Manish_Sharma » 02 Aug 2020 18:25

How Will Rafale Transform Indian Air Force’s Combat Potential
https://www.news18.com/amp/news/opinion ... ssion=true

Rafale is a game changing fighter which will change the way we fight

UPDATED ON: JULY 31, 2020, 5:00 PM IST

MJ Augustine Vinoth

On July 29, amid Covid-19 pandemic, Rafale fighter jets landed in India from France, travelling almost 8,500 km. Let's look at some of the capabilities that Rafale brings to the table.

Air-to-Air Combat Potential of Rafale

Rafale is equipped with AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar and frontal infra-red search and track (IRST) sensor. What is an AESA in a nutshell? It is nothing but a non-moving radar whose beams are electronically steered through small modules called TR (Transmit Receive) modules.

Since non-rotating equipment, its failure rate is very low. Since using TR modules, it can vary parameters in a manner that its performance in dynamic situations will be far better. IRST is a passive system that looks for hot objects both on ground and in air, currently there is no counter measure to IRST.

Using AESA Radar and IRST Rafale employs two potent missiles to shoot down enemies very far, namely MICA & METEOR missiles. They have very high ranges nearly 80+ km for MICA and 100+ km for METEOR. To put things in perspective, Pathankot to Gujranwala is less than 100 km.

Air-to-Ground Combat Potential

Rafale carries varied air-to-ground munitions. SCALP EG missile with multispectral sensor to guide itself to the target accurately and with a range of 560 km. To put things in perspective, Pathankot to Islamabad or Sargodha is only 280 km.

It will carry HAMMER missiles, six of them which have a range of 50-80 km and can target bunkers and dig in position, six at a time and all independently targeting different targets.

It can carry paveway Laser Guided Bombs, MK82/84 1000/2000 lbs unguided bombs and rockets.

It will carry Spice 2000 weapon famous for bombing Balakot to smithereens which will be an engagement as part of India-specific modifications.

Electronic Warfare Suite

Rafale has inbuilt jammers to jam enemy’s airborne and surface-based sensors. It has a potent radar warning receiver and countermeasure dispensing system which automatically dispenses counter measures to counter enemy’s radar and weapons. It also warns pilots of threat from enemy radar and missiles.

Stealth Features

Though not a pure stealth aircraft, Rafale has exceptional stealth features like composite structures, blended design, radar absorbent material and automatic emission control to control own sensors. Attack on Al-Watiya air base with spectra coordination is case in point.

Naysayers need to understand these capabilities are rolled in one fighter that can engage the enemy effectively. To put things in perspective, when the Kargil war happened, India had only three Mirage 2000 jets and only 12 in air-to-ground role. These engaged 80% of the targets and gave India Tiger Hill, Muntho Dhalo on a platter. Rafale is a game changing fighter which will change the way we fight.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Mort Walker » 02 Aug 2020 21:13

VKumar wrote:One squadron of Rafale every year till the MCA is available


The French AF and Navy operate less than 180 Rafales between them. Maybe 250 by 2030. Why should India subsidise Dassault with an order over 200 Rafales by 2030?

You can not import to transform the country into a major world power. Another 44 are needed through a G-G deal and that's it. From there on a minimum 200 LCA Tejas Mk1 & 1A, and 400 Tejas Mk2. Phase out of Mig-21s, Jaguars, older Mig-29s, and Mirage-2000 needs to be accelerated. The MCA can only come IFF the Tejas LCA variants have purchased in numbers for the IAF.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Barath » 02 Aug 2020 21:41

Don't know, but 5 more had already been delivered to the IAF in France, (where IAF pilots are undergoing training), before the first 5 took off. So won't be very long. https://indianexpress.com/article/expla ... t-6525806/ . (The planes in France will be used for training IAF pilots over 18 months, so don't expect all the delivered Rafales to fly to India at any given time)

There's probably some slop in this old article, but it won't be too much off.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... uSCaL.html

> According to the delivery schedule, the first 18 jets (including the four in the first batch) are supposed to be delivered to the IAF by February 2021, with the rest expected by April-May 2022.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Manish_Sharma » 02 Aug 2020 23:42

TWITTER

@TheWolfPackIN:

Repost: Dassault Rafale's AESA radar RBE-2AA has a range of 208 km vs 5m2 target, or 278 km when coupled with SPECTRA. Consequently it will detect a fighter with RCS similar to EF Typhoon at 135-195 km with RBE-2AA
Note: Assumes EFT has RCS of 0.9-1.2m2 with 6 AAM

Source: picard


https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 98368?s=19

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 03 Aug 2020 00:47

Is it appropriate to discuss tail numbers and their distinction of trainer v/s non trainer...

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby idan » 03 Aug 2020 00:57

Manish_Sharma wrote:How Will Rafale Transform Indian Air Force’s Combat Potential
https://www.news18.com/amp/news/opinion ... ssion=true

All very valid points. But it would take a minimum of six months to operationalize Rafales for combat. Somebody wrote and I quote:

'There are few pilots who have flown the Rafale yet.

In time, a few of these aircraft will be allotted to the Tactics and Air Combat Development Establishment (TACDE) in Gwalior. Fighter Combat Leaders at TACDE will fly the Rafale in combat against say the SU-30MKI, MiG-29 and Mirage 2000 to work out tactics that take advantage of the capabilities of the new aircraft - max rate of turn possible, max rate of climb, beyond visual range weapons platform capabilities, handling at different altitudes, at how high a centrifugal acceleration can the life support system keep a pilot conscious, the advantage, if any, of power-to-weight ratio that this aircraft provides against the others.

From these considerations, a spectrum of tactics will be developed, that take advantage of the capabilities of this particular aircraft. For example, when meeting a SU30 class of aircraft, do I in a Rafale, try to force combat in the vertical plane or try to force it into the horizontal plane - a decision that will depend on the adversary's aircraft and it's capabilities. Those tactics will then be imparted to fighter combat leaders flying Rafales from the Air Force Station at Ambala. Those fighter combat leaders will impart those tactics to other pilots in their Squadron'

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby idan » 03 Aug 2020 00:59

So far the experience TACDE folks have on Rafale is a few days of DACT mission under the aegis of 'Mission Pegase' with the Armée de l'Air pilots in 2018.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 03 Aug 2020 01:19

IAF has been training with rafale for quite sometime..IIRC the pilots were in france for training..our pilots flew from france to india a long flight..there has been a lot of training on simulators as well..i think would be stupid to think that think IAF didnt plan to have a good sized pilot pool and trained them enough for the initial roles...i doubt Rafales would sit out like Su 30 sat out during Kargil..even Mig 21 played defensive role during 65 IIRC

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby idan » 03 Aug 2020 01:31

Learning to fly a new aircraft type and combat tactics are altogether different. Tactics can be developed only after extensive flying in the India by TACDE folks. Simulators are only for practicing emergency procedures. You cannot have a fighter simulator that can simulate the fighters flight envelope, principally because generation of instantaneous centrifugal acceleration is impossible on the ground.

Experts in BRF like Karan Sir can enlighten us further.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby disha » 03 Aug 2020 02:24

m_saini wrote:^^ Noob so I cheated and googled :mrgreen:

Not posting the source so as not to spoil the challenge for others. Is low-level ingress the correct answer? though it seems other factors also played a role. Major among them being the pressing need of the officers to relieve themselves during the attack :rotfl:


Well, the super entedards with the exocet literally caught the officers of HMS Sheffield with their pants down.

Manjgu ji' someone posted Raffalay flying through the swiss mountains. There are other videos on the net where super low flying ability of Rafale is demonstrated. And it has been stated that Raffalay can fly super low for at least 1000 km.

Now imagine them slicing through the valleys of Himalayas and popping up and launching a SCALP on a low low profile against Ngari, Hotan or Kashgar. Cheen just does not have any answer to this. They have to put all their AEWC aircraft at the minimum 500 km in, unless they want them to be sitting ducks to Indian SAM and BVR-AAMs. That itself will make them non-operational. Since 500 km in, they will be practically blind to the going on in Pathankots.

And this is an aspect of stealth which is being ignored! What is stealth? A technical answer that is touted out is, stealth is nothing but very low-observable aircraft. Low-observable from what? If the adversary computer is not able to distinguish the radar signature from the background clutter, it can as well said that the aircraft is 'low-observable'.

That is why Rafalay is a game changer. Bakistan does not have an answer to this and neighter Cheenis.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby idan » 03 Aug 2020 02:55

RAF typhoon fleet routinely flies very low level in Mach valley Wales - approx 300 - 400 ft agl


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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby brar_w » 03 Aug 2020 03:25

There are many aircraft that fly the loop to practice low level flying. Same with the Rainbow (star wars) canyon in the US.

Low-observable from what? If the adversary computer is not able to distinguish the radar signature from the background clutter, it can as well said that the aircraft is 'low-observable'.


LO as in RCS optimized aircraft is of course going to provide you defense at altitude which is tactically really relevant (hence one can look at the sheer number of platforms out there that are in the design phase that are incorporating that to a high degree) including the next fighter that Dassault will develop). But yeah, if the adversary doesn't have good airborne early warning and C2 platforms or fighter capable of look down shoot down performance from its radars then you can go low and gain survivability (at risk though while also diminishing your own performance - combat range/payload and sensor capability). Same with shrinking SAM envelopes which suffer greatly from horizon limitations. In fact, one of the reasons the F-117 and the program was created, as a gateway into Low Observable designs, was because of the emerging (real and perceived) soviet look down shoot down capability and the efforts that would make flying low difficult or at least less assured within a reasonable loss ratio or mission success probability. That's really what kick started all the work into stealth/LO which has now gone through 2-3 generational iterations and refinement.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Roop » 03 Aug 2020 06:29

Re. that article by MJ Augustine Vinod:

India had only three Mirage 2000 jets and only 12 in air-to-ground role. These engaged 80% of the targets and gave India Tiger Hill, Muntho Dhalo on a platter.


No arguments from me about Muntho Dalo, but if you say that Mirage 2K (or any other IAF plane) "gave India Tiger Hill on a platter" you are going to get serious pushback from the IA, and you should. The destruction of the PA supply depot at Muntho Dalo (MD) was a serious and essential step in India's ultimate victory, but it did not (by itself) give anything "on a platter", apart from the destruction of PA's logistics chain. The IA still had to expend serious blood and sacrifice in assaulting Tiger Hill and evicting the PA occupiers there. That was a hard-fought victory, won at tremendous cost.

Rather than giving IAF unilateral credit for Tiger Hill, you could just as well give Bofors FH-77B unilateral credit for Tiger Hill; but both extremes would be wrong. Wars are fought and won by co-ordinated action by competent and courageous military forces willing to risk their lives for the mission, and in this IA and IAF both played a part.

You know, I'll give the PA troops on the scene (the NLI guys) credit for at least putting up a fight. In the same position, those chu*iya kaddu-faced girly-men of the PLA would have abandoned their posts and fled in terror at the first shot.


Rafale is a game changing fighter which will change the way we fight.


Yes, absolutely! No arguments there, provided that "the way we fight" continues in the tradition of emphasizing the quality and training of the man behind the machine, not blindly worshiping the machine itself.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Manish_Sharma » 03 Aug 2020 08:15

Rafales Can Give Big Advantage In Tibet In Aerial Combat: Ex-Air Force Chief
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/rafales ... ssion=true

Mr Dhanoa, known as the architect of the Balakot strikes, said the Rafale jets along with S-400 missile systems will give the Indian Air Force a major combat edge in the entire region.

The Rafale aircraft will give India a strategic advantage in case of any aerial combat with China in the mountainous Tibet region as the fleet will be able to use the terrain to its advantage, destroy enemy air defence and incapacitate the surface-to-air missiles, former Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal (retd) BS Dhanoa said on Sunday.

Mr Dhanoa, known as the architect of the Balakot strikes, said the Rafale jets along with S-400 missile systems will give the Indian Air Force a major combat edge in the entire region and that India's adversaries will think twice before starting a war.

In case of Pakistan, he said the purpose of the S-400 and Rafale is to hit Pakistani aircraft inside Pakistani air space and not when they come inside Indian territory, adding the neighbouring country would not have responded on February 27 last year to the Balakot air strikes if India had the French-manufactured jets then.

In an interview to PTI, Mr Dhanoa said the Rafale, with its fantastic electronic warfare suite and maneuverability, will be able use mountainous terrain in Tibet to its advantage and blind the enemy before India's strike aircraft penetrate hostile airspace to carry out their missions
.
The former Chief of Air Staff also said that the Rafales being supplied to the IAF are much more advanced than the ones being used by the French Air Force as India had asked for something "more" due to requirement to operate in unique conditions like operations from Leh.

Five Rafale jets out of 36 arrived India last week at a time India is in the midst of a bitter border row with China in the high altitude eastern Ladakh region.

"Rafale has got a fantastic Electronic Warfare (EW) suite (SPECTRA), fantastic weapons and therefore are capable of protecting themselves electronically besides being able to use the terrain to their advantage," Mr Dhanoa said.

"So they (Rafales) can play an important role in doing DEAD (Destruction of Enemy Air Defence) on the Surface-to-Air Missiles that the Chinese have put on Tibet.

"Once you take out those surface to air missiles then other aircraft like Su30, Jaguars, even Mig 21s can go out and drop the bombs on the Chinese forces. The strike aircraft carrying bombs can put tonnes and tonnes of bombs on the enemy troops, freely carrying out their mission. But if you do not do DEAD then you will suffer a lot of casualties," he said.

The leading air forces globally carry out Suppression of Enemy Air Defence (SEAD) or DEAD using their top of the line aircraft or weapons before launching any major operation in hostile territories.

"Against China there are big Himalayan mountains in between us which create serious line of sight issues. You can put a missile with a range of 300-400 kms on the ground in Tibet or in India. But it will only work within the line of sight," he said.

He said the Rafales, with terrain following capability, will give India a major capability enhancement.

"In air combat, the first thing that is important is information dominance, you get information and deny the enemy the information. The key role the Rafales will play in Tibet is information dominance and in case of Pakistan, it is a major deterrent. Of course there will be other roles too," he said.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Sumeet » 03 Aug 2020 11:25

brar_w wrote:
Sumeet wrote:What people are also forgetting with Rafale which has planned F4 and very possible F5 version (~2030) with 6th generation tech we will have a very good upgrade path which will put pressure over our adversaries.

What 6th gen tech?


Rafale's F4/F5 version will put it at par with F-35 in terms of Sensors, Data fusion and

We will have to wait and find out. The F-35 is well supported and is not a static target. Block 4 is delivering starting next 2 years and will continue to deliver significant upgrades pretty much across sensors, sensor fusion, mission computing, weapons, EW and the lot. Then, in the second half of the 2020's, block 5 will start including a possible re-enging using an adaptive engine or technology inserted from adaptive engine development programs. You must also factor in that the F-35 starts from a different baseline. For example, at the current baseline it generates more electric power for sub systems then either the F-22 or the f-15E. The electrical system will likely get a significant upgrade by block 5. There is EOS and a critical mass of customers who are invested in these upgrades with a very high $ amount put into modernization and follow on development. Rafale upgade is mostly French funded within the constraints of their defense budget and without EOS so they are picky about what they get and what they ultimately buy. For example, they still don't have an AESA retrofit program and one may not come till mid-life for non AESA equipped aircraft. But they do a good job in supporting the program within their budget considerations though when SCAF requires billions per year of R&D this pipeline will be put to test. But a 5th, or 6th gen fighter it is not.


Brar 6th gen was a typo as I mentioned in reply to Rakesh.

Also, I mentioned equivalence with F-35 in terms of Sensors, Data fusion and NCW (I missed this in my original post) definitely not stealth or VLO shaping.

I totally agree with you that capacity of growth of engine's electric output & cooling F-35 is radically different from Rafale and even F-22. Hence more powerful and rich in terms of capability avionics and sensors can be easily fitted to F-35. In its overall lifetime it will be much superior to what can ever be fitted into Rafale. And for this same reason MWF if well planned can out do Rafale as well by significant margin.

My main point is Rafale is the closest we can get to 5th gen capability (in terms of Avionics, Sensors, Data fusion and NCW) and given its planned upgrade path that will put pressure on our adversaries; something we are not able to do with MKI since we lack indigenous equipment that is state of art and Russia is cash strapped unable to pursue meaningful technology enhancements for itself.

Even if F-35 will have cutting edge tech there is no guarantee US will make it available for export. Other countries depending on where they are on poodle scale will get upgrades commensurately. Neither everyone has money like US to keep regularly inserting state of the art technology.

Moreover, if India were to go for F-35 there is no guarantee we will have latest tech even if we will be willing to pay for it. Therefore, Rafale F4/F5 will be close if not closest to what current model F-35 possesses. With France if you are willing to pay they will give you the tech in their product. Even right now they have promised us ISE added to Rafale F3R.

Here are tidbits on Rafale upgrade path (I think in the past this has been shared by Rakesh although may not be in this much detail):


F3R:

    Automatic retargeting of Meteor missile in flight
    Current RBE is long ranged enough to follow Meteor & allocate a new target to it
    HAMMER Block 3 -- Fusing can be programmed in flight, pilot can select delay/impact/airburst modes hence increasing weapons destructive power depending on target structure

Point kept in mind for Rafale F4/F5 is that it has to operate in NCW env alongside F-35 and down the road Franco-German FCAS.

F4:
New E/O pods (This may require Talios purchase, I would assume Rafael's Litening will also advance to have similar features if not already there in Litening 5)

    Color display
    Augmented Reality & AI
    Image enrichment with pre-stored geographic data etc
    Automatic target recognition, Shape recognition and vehicle features ID



Spectra & other EW systems:
    Almost instantaneous threat detection & ID accurately in 3D
    New Digital jammer to do rapid wideband ECM
    New jamming waveforms
    Detection of very high band hostile emitters
    Stand In jammers using mini UAVs -- will be used as decoys so that SAM positions become visible, perhaps saturated and/or forced to malfunction (On a side note MBDA UK is working on Spear EW system that can be an option for Rafale as well)
    Active radar decoys -- self contained jammers programmed to defeat latest missile seekers

FSO:
    New IRST to facilitate passive detection, tracking and ID of targets (including Stealthy targets) at stand off range without using the Radar
    (Think of this in combo with Astra IR and Next Gen Mica IR -- total passive engagement)


RBE-2 AESA
    GMTI mode
    Sharper SAR mode
    Enhanced tracking for slow and low RCS systems


Weapons:
    New HAMMER (AASM)
    Enhanced SCALP
    MICA NG -- AESA radar seeker, dual pulse motor (Pretty much like our Astra Mk2)


NCW:
    Secure, Cyber Attack protected broadband communications server (equivalent of Civilian router) installed on aircraft
    Weapons & Navigation System -- provides user with ability to add Apps to facilitate communication using new protocols or communication tool to talk to a new system introduced in coalition force
    SATCOM
    F03D data link (new 3D waveforms) using very narrow Ku Band data link will rely of new SDR contact radios of French air force


Cockpit & Sensor Fusion:
    New larger touchscreen digital lateral displays full color display
    New mission computers (MDP - modular data processor) to facilitate more robust multi sensor data fusion between -- RBE-2 AA + FSO IRST + MICA IR + Spectra(RWR & MAWS) + IFF + Data link & SATCOM data all fused and presented in pilot's cockpit


M-88 engine:
    New digital computer (not much else is known at the moment)


Maintainence:
    Big data and AI based tech just like F-35's ALIS for predictive maintainence


F5:

    Multi functional RF Arrays for detection, jamming and communication using GaN technology. These can be fused to aircraft fuselage.

Credits:
AIR International June 2019 edition
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... f42s-66727

According to what has been mentioned in the news FCAS is 20+ years away at a minimum, ~25 will be a better estimate. I expect Rafale to get very significant upgrades over this time period which only serves us well. Even in French Air Force Rafale will be there till 2055-2060. Even today there are M2Ks in French Air Force (almost 51% of French Air Force).

I will repeat what I said previously, in this decade IAF and Space Force should:

    Get our indigenous missiles operational with Tejas, MKI & Rafale (SAAW, NGARM, Brahmos-A/NG, Astra Mk1/Mk2, Astra SFDR)
    Get more Netra and Phalcons AWACS
    Make IACCS and data link operational across entire force
    Augment our Space Recon/Elint/Image int/Navigation assets
    Induct S-400, Barak-8 MR SAM, XRSAM, Akash Mk2, VL-QRSAM and if (possible/needed) S-500
    Use this decade to get Mk2 to FOC and AMCA to near to IOC
    Do a deep upgrade of select squadrons (10) of MKI to Super 30 standard
    Upgrade existing Rafale to F4 (or else get more Rafale's 2-3 squadrons at F4 standard)
    Get Kaveri engine to success status even if foreign help is taken (this is crucial in the long run)


Collaborate with Rafael, Elta/IAI, Elbit, Eletronica etc and get Radar, Unified EW, IRST, Data Links, Missile seekers ready for MWF and eventually AMCA. As long as platforms is ours we can have some sub system which have some foreign content eventually to be replaced by our own.


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