VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

[ramana]

IDRW is claiming Rafale marine is a done deal

https://idrw.org/india-set-to-acquire-2 ... llar-deal/

But then this is IDRW…

IDRW does not have any original reporting.

They gather info from other sites including BRF and put a marker on it.

Worst scumbags in the defense reporting.

[ramana]

MoU was signed between BDL and MBDA on 20 Oct 2022 ---> viewtopic.php?p=2567609#p2567609

India to integrate indigenous weapons on Rafale fighter jets
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/i ... 2023-07-23
23 July 2023

Interesting that IAF does not ask for SPICE2K to be integrated with Rafale!
During the Galwan crisis emergency purchases of Hammer had to be authorized as no intention to integrate SPICE on Rafale.

[vimal]

IDRW is claiming Rafale marine is a done deal

https://idrw.org/india-set-to-acquire-2 ... llar-deal/

But then this is IDRW…

IDRW does not have any original reporting.

They gather info from other sites including BRF and put a marker on it.

Worst scumbags in the defense reporting.

I’ve never understood why BRF forums are open to read for all. Is there a technical reason why BRF cannot hide it behind a login?

[Rakesh]

That IDRW article on the Rafale is a word-for-word xerox copy of another article. So shameless these IDRW guys are.

[RoyG]

We are looking at 177 Rafales total if you include the M class. This on top of 272 Su-30 brings our frontline heavy fighter bomber aircraft to 449. Rest will be LCA MKI&II, TEDBF, and AMCA. This should be our last foreign figher aircraft purchase.

[Manish_P]

We are looking at 177 Rafales total if you include the M class. This on top of 272 Su-30 brings our frontline heavy fighter bomber aircraft to 449. Rest will be LCA MKI&II, TEDBF, and AMCA. This should be our last foreign figher aircraft purchase.

That will be the day we achieve success in building our own turbofan engine

[ramana]

That IDRW article on the Rafale is a word-for-word xerox copy of another article. So shameless these IDRW guys are.

Can you post the original!

[RoyG]

We are looking at 177 Rafales total if you include the M class. This on top of 272 Su-30 brings our frontline heavy fighter bomber aircraft to 449. Rest will be LCA MKI&II, TEDBF, and AMCA. This should be our last foreign figher aircraft purchase.

That will be the day we achieve success in building our own turbofan engine

Big achievement and even bigger relief

[Rakesh]

Rafale: Dassault Aviation's three challenges for the end of the year
https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-fi ... 74239.html
05 Sept 2023

"We can clearly see that we have a Rafale moment and what I can say is that this Rafale moment will last. It will last a while ,” said Eric Trappier last Tuesday on BFM Business. The CEO of Dassault Aviation is convinced that the Rafale has an unprecedented commercial niche. The Rafale "meets the needs of the armies that buy it" and "geopolitics is in France's favor because the country which does not want to buy either American or Russian, has a high-value French offer with the French positioning which is still interesting for a number of countries that do not want to align,” he explained.

In this favorable context, Eric Trappier has set his teams, despite being exhausted by the intense pace of commercial campaigns for three years, two priority international objectives for the end of the year: complete negotiations with India on the Rafale Navy, which should be armed with Indian missiles, and obtain the entry into force of the third tranche of the Rafale contract in Indonesia (18 remaining aircraft out of the 42 ordered by Jakarta for an amount of 8.1 billion euros excluding armament). On the other hand, in India, the entry into force of the contract for the 26 Rafale Marines, an order announced on July 13 in Paris by Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi, would seem out of reach before the end of the year. And so it could not be counted in Dassault Aviation's order book in 2023. For this, New Delhi must pay a deposit.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/valvimangal97/status/1694 ... 80924?s=20 ---> The Greek Air Force is interested in the Astra Mk1 BVR. The Astra Mk 1 missile is an indigenous missile of India. The Greek Air Force is monitoring the Astra Mk1 induction process on the IAF's Rafale. The Greek Air Force is looking for an alternative to the expensive Meteor BVR for the Rafale.

https://x.com/PranayChatter11/status/16 ... 98715?s=20 ---> The Greek Air Force has 24 Rafales equipped with Meteor BVRAAMs. They are eagerly monitoring India’s integration of Astra BVRAAM on the Indian Air Force's Rafales. The Astra Mk1 (Rs 8 crore) and Astra Mk2 (Rs 11 crore) are very cost-effective compared to the Meteor (Rs 25 crore).

Below is from IDRW. Take it for what it is worth....

India to foot the bill for Astra integration, free for other Rafale operators
https://idrw.org/india-to-foot-the-bill ... operators/
12 September 2023

[Cyrano]

14 July came and went. Modiji also came and went. Still no news of actual purchase. Even the media here has gone a bit quiet...

[Rakesh]

14 July came and went. Modiji also came and went. Still no news of actual purchase. Even the media here has gone a bit quiet...

If you are referring to the 26 Rafale Ms for INS Vikrant, price negotiations are on-going.

However, if you are referring to the MRFA contest, you will have to wait till post the 2024 General Elections.

[Rakesh]

VIDEO: https://x.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1703822 ... 77336?s=20 ---> Our Left, Right and Centre special on the IAF's No 101 Squadron and their Rafale pilots coming up this Thursday at 9pm. Includes a special interview with the Air Officer Commanding in Chief, Eastern Air Command.

https://x.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1702859 ... 36986?s=20 ---> Spent the last few days in Hasimara (North Bengal) with pilots of India's second Rafale squadron, The Falcons. Super insight into IAF operations along the China frontier & a special interview of the Air Officer Commanding in Chief, Eastern Air Command. Our 1 hour special next week.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1704815 ... 11827?s=20 ---> Our feature on Rafales and the No 101 Squadron postponed to 9:30 pm tonight given the breaking news on Canada and India asking Canada to downsize their diplomatic presence here.

[Rakesh]

Rafale: India's Cutting Edge | NDTV EXCLUSIVE

[saumitra_j]

Thank you Rakesh sir for posting this wonderful show. Thanks to Vishnu Som for this wonderful program if he still visits this forum. The most interesting/shocking (to me at least) comes at 36:33 - to quote the Air Marshal

Actually it was surprising to find out that way back, almost three decades ago, part of the T/R module that was fitted on the AESA radar for some of the high performance American fighters were manufactured in Bangalore

[Rakesh]

Thank you Rakesh sir for posting this wonderful show.

Aiyoo!! Why are you calling me Sir?

Thanks to Vishnu Som for this wonderful program if he still visits this forum. The most interesting/shocking (to me at least) comes at 36:33 - to quote the Air Marshal...

Yes that was very interesting. Even Vishnu Som's eyes popped out at that remark.

I came away from that video with some insights:

1) The IAF is deeply impressed with the Rafale. From the Air Marshal to the air crew to the maintenance crew, they all appreciate the Rafale and the capability it brings to the IAF. My personal perception i.e. they are confident of tackling anything the PLAAF throws at the IAF and that includes the J-20 and the J-31. Rafale pilots also come from varied aircraft types versus just Mirage 2000 pilots. At least two of the pilots in the video came from the Sukhoi Su-30MKI and the MiG-21 Bison. The CO of No 101 Squadron - Group Captain Abhishek Tripathi, Callsign: Trips - was a former Rambha driver. The only thing that the IAF feels lacking in the Rafale, is even more Rafales and which leads to my next point...

2) I don't see how any other aircraft in the MRFA contest is going to have the same home base advantage that the Rafale currently offers to the IAF. The Air Marshal remarked that the IAF has been on this particular aircraft type for the past five years. In these five years, they have gained more than a sufficient level of confidence in the aircraft, her capabilities and her aircrew. To restart that process with another aircraft type will not only be cost prohibitive, but equally time consuming. The IAF just does not have that time.

I doubt 114 Rafales will come (budgetary reasons), but additional Rafales are certain. Especially with the Navy ordering 26 Rafales for INS Vikrant, how acquiring another aircraft type (of the 4th gen variety) and have it integrate into IAF's ORBAT will make any sense. It will be a duplication of effort, waste precious CAPEX investment along with the annual OPEX investment. The only downside to additional Rafale aircraft is the ever growing production back log at Merignanc, Framce and which will be impossible to overcome...if the Saudis order their planned 100 - 200 aircraft. I do believe an assembly factory will be set up in India to overcome that impasse, but that will become more clear only post the 2024 General Elections.

3) The IAF plans to keep the Rafale up to date in the years and decades ahead, with an increasing level of indigenous components. That is very heartening to hear. Future Rafale upgrades will include desi weaponry (confirmed news) and possibly Indian sensors and perhaps even radars. Only time will tell how much of this will pan out. But once again France has turned out to be the IAF's secret weapon i.e. allow the IAF to modify the aircraft, make her fully compatible with Indian kit and with no end use inspections. Air HQ's logic - "We paid for the plane. So what we do with the plane, is our business."

4) Again my personal perception i.e. Air Marshal SP Dharkar came across as being extremely media savvy. Answered all questions with confidence and with flair (classic traits of a fighter pilot). The reason I am bringing this up is because leadership (strong or weak) flows down like a virus in a military hierarchy. If the AOC-in-C appears pliant and weak, one can expect the men & women under him will have the same attitude. I saw that same level of confidence in all the personnel - serving under him - in that video. If their Air Boss has got their back and has full confidence in them, these personnel will imbibe that in their work. And that is extremely essential for mission success.

All in all, a very good video. Well made.

[konaseema]

Having read the above, it might very well be within the realm of possibility for India & Saudi (and maybe the UAE order that was placed earlier) to place a joint large order that establishes a production line in India by a private player and deliver a cheaper version (drive down the per unit price) of the Rafael with Indian components (Missiles, Radar etc). This new production line may produce up to 36 aircrafts per year to deliver them all in 8-10 years (India - 72 (4 squadrons) + Saudi - 200 + UAE - 80). We will receive approximately 6-8 aircrafts per year, which is a decent number to go with the 173 Tejas Mk1A we will receive (24 per year), which means we will receive ~ 2 new squadrons per year from 2027!!!

[JTull]

Having read the above, it might very well be within the realm of possibility for India & Saudi (and maybe the UAE order that was placed earlier) to place a joint large order that establishes a production line in India by a private player and deliver a cheaper version (drive down the per unit price) of the Rafael with Indian components (Missiles, Radar etc). This new production line may produce up to 36 aircrafts per year to deliver them all in 8-10 years (India - 72 (4 squadrons) + Saudi - 200 + UAE - 80). We will receive approximately 6-8 aircrafts per year, which is a decent number to go with the 173 Tejas Mk1A we will receive (24 per year), which means we will receive ~ 2 new squadrons per year from 2027!!!

You must be joking that Saudis or Emirati will accept Indian manufactured Rafale when they've the option to get gold plated ones from Dassault directly. You just need to spend couple of days in ME to know why that's impossible.

India may supply even the French, but ME won't accept desi sources when European source is available.

[Rakesh]

Having read the above, it might very well be within the realm of possibility for India & Saudi (and maybe the UAE order that was placed earlier) to place a joint large order that establishes a production line in India by a private player and deliver a cheaper version (drive down the per unit price) of the Rafael with Indian components (Missiles, Radar etc). This new production line may produce up to 36 aircrafts per year to deliver them all in 8-10 years (India - 72 (4 squadrons) + Saudi - 200 + UAE - 80). We will receive approximately 6-8 aircrafts per year, which is a decent number to go with the 173 Tejas Mk1A we will receive (24 per year), which means we will receive ~ 2 new squadrons per year from 2027!!!

Konaseema-ji, Greece is keenly watching the Astra integration on the Rafale. If all goes well with the integration, they could very well be the first export customer for the missile. Greece (or any country for that matter) cannot expend their precious Meteor stocks. That missile - while *VERY* impressive - is not inexpensive. Greece is also interested in the upcoming BrahMos-NG which is also planned for integration on the Rafale. But Indian origin sensors and radar are quite a ways off though. It will take minimum a decade before Indian kit of that nature even shows up on an upgraded Rafale in India.

The line at Merignac has a capacity to churn out 33 Rafale aircraft per year. Dassault will have to increase that production capacity to 33 aircraft (or perhaps more) due to the ever growing order book. However, the possible Saudi order will likely break the back of that production line. Dassault will have to set up another production line, either in France or where ever else. No two ways about that.

But setting up a second production line in France will likely not be cheap. The more financially attractive option for Dassault would be to get a foreign customer to pay for a second production line (via offsets from a large contract). This will allow Dassault to reap the financial benefits from two lines, while having invested in only one line (which has already been paid off). The sub-contractors (i.e. Safran for the turbofan, Martin Baker for the ejection seat, Thales for the radar and sensors, etc) will also have to spool up their production as well to meet the new demand.

These are just some of the factors that the GOI has to consider in setting up an assembly line in India. Dassault will obviously expect a second production line to cater to not only a future Indian order, but also for other foreign orders as well. The MRFA contract plans to induct 12 to 13 aircraft a year, so any possible second line should have the capacity to cater to other export customers. This is the only way Dassault can likely meet all the production numbers - in time - from the orders that are coming in.

You must be joking that Saudis or Emirati will accept Indian manufactured Rafale when they've the option to get gold plated ones from Dassault directly. You just need to spend couple of days in ME to know why that's impossible.

India may supply even the French, but ME won't accept desi sources when European source is available.

JTull Saar: Indian companies are currently making components of parts that go into all future Rafale orders. See below.

But these are just components and not assembly. Final assembly is still done in France...at the moment.

Five parts being made at Nagpur plant to be integrated with all Rafale jets
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 621_1.html
15 Dec 2022

...the Consul General said that 5 pieces of Rafale are manufactured in Nagpur and then sent to the France assembly line to be assembled in all the Rafale jets, not just the Indian ones.

Bharat Electronics signs frame supply agreement with Thales Reliance Defence Systems, Nagpur
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 988_1.html
28 Feb 2023

Also This ---> viewtopic.php?p=2482951#p2482951

These components have to be built to the same standard and pass the same level of QC checks, just as if they were made in France. It is in Dassault's financial interest that this happens. Forget export customers, their own home customer will not accept the components if they are sub-standard. UAE, Saudi Arabia or other export customers do not have a say in that matter. This is also likely Dassault's way of testing the waters in India to see a second production line - if indeed ever set up in India - will meet the stringent QC standards of the Merignac line in France.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/ReviewVayu/status/1706989 ... 97142?s=20 ---> Ludovic Dumont, Country Head MBDA India: We understand importance of capability / sovereignty to the IAF. We have strongly committed to Make in India to deliver both industrial sovereignty & best military equipment to India.

https://x.com/ReviewVayu/status/1706989 ... 28452?s=20 ---> Ludovic Dumont, Country Head @MBDAGroup & MBDA India General Delegate: The IAF throughout its history has been a strong user of MBDA’s missiles on a number of different aircraft types. Today the IAF’s latest aircraft Rafale fields a highly potent suite of weapons from MBDA.

[Prem Kumar]

X-Post from the Air Force Tejas Mk1A thread....

====================================

Let him do that and if he manages to ensure signed contracts for many of these items, he'll deserve all the accolades that he gets!

Today, he says they are also talking to OEM vendors for 6-7 squadrons of MRFA, with indigenization clauses, integration of desi-weapons etc. So, that itch has not been scratched yet

Hopefully, there is no carrot & stick play here and the Atmanirbhar items go through irrespective of what happens with the MRFA. At any rate, I seriously doubt if the MRFA will go through before Sept 2024.

[Rakesh]

Let him do that and if he manages to ensure signed contracts for many of these items, he'll deserve all the accolades that he gets!

Today, he says they are also talking to OEM vendors for 6-7 squadrons of MRFA, with indigenization clauses, integration of desi-weapons etc. So, that itch has not been scratched yet

Hopefully, there is no carrot & stick play here and the Atmanirbhar items go through irrespective of what happens with the MRFA. At any rate, I seriously doubt if the MRFA will go through before Sept 2024.

The MRFA is coming. That is the reason for all this indigenization push and these announcements. That is the only way they can justify this purchase. All indications point to the Rafale, but lets wait and see. The MRFA is vital for the Safran-GTRE JV for the 110kN turbofan. The roadmap for that JV is supposed to be out by the end of this year. To pay for that JV and then go in for a separate MRFA is going to be counterproductive, from a financial point of view. From a technical point of view as well, there is no game changer in any of the other contenders in the MRFA contest over the Rafale.

The integration of desi-weapons, that the Air Chief talked about, is already happening on the Rafale. The MoU has been signed and work has aready commenced on that. Same with the indigenization clauses, which will be worked out on an upcoming Rafale order for the IAF.

The upcoming 9 Tejas Mk1A squadrons will replace the 4 Bison squadrons and the 5+ Jaguar squadrons that are in the IAF. Then there is the upcoming three MiG-29UPG squadrons which are due to retire by the end of this decade and the three Mirage 2000 squadrons which are due to retire in the next. And even after the MRFA purchase and the 9 Tejas Mk1A squadrons, the IAF will still need the Tejas Mk2 and that too in triple digit numbers. The math proves this.

@ 6 squadrons, that will mean 108 aircraft and @ 7 squadrons will mean 126 aircraft, which is the exact number of the MMRCA 1.0 contest. I am going to stick my neck out and state it will be the lower end number i.e. six MRFA squadrons. We will have to wait till post the 2024 General Elections to get more clarity on how the MRFA contract is going to play out in terms of numbers.

The MRFA is also vital for the particular kind of mission that the IAF intends to do with the aircraft i.e. break down the door. Till the AMCA arrives, that mission will be undertaken by the Rafale. Breaking down the door is vital, if the IAF wants to conduct successful missions in Tibet with minimal attrition losses to her ingressing aircraft. The two Rafale squadrons - currently in service - is just not going to be enough.

The selection of the Rafale M for the Indian Navy sealed the fate of the MRFA for the IAF.

[Prem Kumar]

Since its fairly obvious to everyone that any MRFA has to be Rafale, why is the IAF going through the MMRCA-style tamasha again? If squadron number depletion is a serious, time-pressing concern, why not go G2G for MRFA, 110-kn-turbofan etc and be done with it

I don't think that they are doing it to have a stick to beat Dassault with. Its way too much effort and counter-productive to do so.

Unless, there is a Gripen-lobby inside (maybe an Amrikan one too), whose middlemen are keeping this flame alive

[williams]

We start with new MK1A orders, then gripe about not signing on the dotted line, etc., and end with a discussion about MRFA, Rafale in MK1A thread Are we that doubtful of IAF intentions? These are serious decisions with serious national security and economic implications. Let us give GOI and IAF the time needed to think through it and make a decision.

[Rakesh]

We start with new MK1A orders, then gripe about not signing on the dotted line, etc., and end with a discussion about MRFA, Rafale in MK1A thread Are we that doubtful of IAF intentions? These are serious decisions with serious national security and economic implications. Let us give GOI and IAF the time needed to think through it and make a decision.

I have moved the discussion to this thread.

[Rakesh]

Since its fairly obvious to everyone that any MRFA has to be Rafale, why is the IAF going through the MMRCA-style tamasha again? If squadron number depletion is a serious, time-pressing concern, why not go G2G for MRFA, 110-kn-turbofan etc and be done with it

I don't think that they are doing it to have a stick to beat Dassault with. Its way too much effort and counter-productive to do so.

Unless, there is a Gripen-lobby inside (maybe an Amrikan one too), whose middlemen are keeping this flame alive

Because you have to. Perception and Timing play a very big role in defence acquisitions in India. You cannot announce a MRFA contract this close to the General Elections. It is a recipe for electoral disaster. However order Indian maal and it will translate into a boon at the electoral box. NaMo raised that very point in Parliament, when he taunted the Congress on the claim that HAL-went-broke-because-the-BJP Govt-gave-the-Rafale-contract-to-Ambani. NaMo said HAL now has record profits and has a massive order book. The proof lies in the pudding.

You also have to run through all the bureaucratic hurdles to get anything passed. So going through the motions in the MRFA contest is an absolute must. The only way to avoid that is to implement communism in India i.e. no elections. Who is up for that scenario? Because that is what happens in China and that is why they have the military strength they have. No one questions Xi the Panda and his overlords.

Eric Trappier - CEO of Dassault - put it best, "With India, you just have to be patient." And patience in India is measured in decades i.e. MMRCA 1.0 started in 2001 and 22 years later, we are still no where close. It is just the way it works.

Squadron depletion can only be addressed through the multiple iterations of the Tejas i.e. Mk1, Mk1A, Mk2, etc. Nothing else - not even the Rafale - can address that conundrum. Even Air HQ has realised that and thus the additional Mk1A purchase. See the amount of MRFA being acquired (6 to 7 squadrons) and now compare that to the 9 Tejas Mk1A squadrons, the 2 Tejas Mk1 squadrons and the 6 (planned first batch) squadrons of the Tejas Mk2. That is 17 squadrons of Tejas (or 300+ aircraft!) in the IAF, compared to the MRFA purchase. The Indian Navy is the same story ---> 26 Rafale M compared to the upcoming Naval Tejas Mk1 order and then the TEDBF (~ 90 aircraft is the planned number).

What the GOI/MoD/Air HQ are doing now is lining up all the ducks --> JV for 110kN turbofan with Safran, signed the MoU for integration of Indian origin weaponry on the Rafale, etc. Once those are signed and completed, then it makes ample sense to go in for additional Rafales. And now you have the timing issue i.e. 2024 General Elections. Wait till the elections are done (I am pretty sanguine that the BJP will win) and you will see a lot of positive movements on everything i.e. signing the deal for 97 additional Tejas Mk1As, signing the deal for additional Rafales for the IAF, signing the deal for the Rafale M for the Indian Navy, signing the deal for twin-seat Naval Tejas Mk1s as carrier borne trainers for INS Vikrant and INS Vikramaditya, etc.

With India, you just have to be patient.

[hgupta]

The problem with that last line is that your enemies will not wait for you to get ready and get all your ducks in a row.

[Rakesh]

The problem with that last line is that your enemies will not wait for you to get ready and get all your ducks in a row.

I agree, but this is how the system has always been and will continue to be so. In India, the hierarchy goes like this;

1) Indian Administrative Service
2) Almighty God
3) Everyone Else

Back in the 50s, when successive military chiefs, advised Nehru of the impending Chinese threat...he dismissed it. YOs (Young Officers) and Jawans paid the price. The Govt pinned a medal on these YOs and Jawans and moved on.

It has changed under NaMo, but the system still moves painfully slow. If a mere 36 Rafales caused this much randi rona-dhona, imagine what a triple digit Rafale order will do right in the middle of an election season.

[Rakesh]

The upcoming 9 Tejas Mk1A squadrons will replace the 4 Bison squadrons and the 5+ Jaguar squadrons that are in the IAF. Then there is the upcoming three MiG-29UPG squadrons which are due to retire by the end of this decade and the three Mirage 2000 squadrons which are due to retire in the next. And even after the MRFA purchase and the 9 Tejas Mk1A squadrons, the IAF will still need the Tejas Mk2 and that too in triple digit numbers. The math proves this.

Contract for 97 more Tejas fighter jets expected to be signed by year-end: IAF Chief Chaudhuri
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/india ... ief-550042
03 Oct 2023

On being asked if the requirement of 42 fighter jet squadrons was needed in the changing war fighting scenario, the IAF chief said, “We will need the numbers.”

[Kersi]

Is it necesary to retire The Jaguars and MiG 29UPG so soon ? Would it be possible to use them for another 10 years till we get AMCA ?

[ramana]

Rakesh, More Rafale won't satisfy the Chief's MRFA urge. It has to be an American plane.
He has been consistent in pushing for an American plane under MRFA.

[ramana]

Is it necesary to retire The Jaguars and MiG 29UPG so soon ? Would it be possible to use them for another 10 years till we get AMCA ?

Are you not following the news? Yes, they have to be retired. No point in pouring good money over bad planes.
Jaguar is asthmatic. What this means is it has to fly with reduced weapon load along LAC.
Mig-29UPG availability is bad. What this means i you need more of them to do anything useful.

[Rakesh]

Rakesh, More Rafale won't satisfy the Chief's MRFA urge. It has to be an American plane.
He has been consistent in pushing for an American plane under MRFA.

Ramana-ji, the only American contenders left in the MRFA are the F-21 and the F-15EX. The F-18SH is done, as the production line is closing down.

Out of the two, the IAF will be unlikely to go in for the F-21, due to the plane being in service with Pakistan. And the PAF will be upgrading their F-16C/Ds (courtesy of the US) to the Block 70/72 standard. They will likely get another 18 - 36 new build aircraft to replace their older model F-16s which has also crossed more than 4+ decades in service.

That leaves the F-15EX, which has both a high CAPEX (acquisition cost) and an equally high OPEX. Not sure how that will pass muster with the IAF and the upcoming Super Sukhoi upgrade.

[ramana]

Hence every US visit, the F-35 is on the table.
That will torpedo the AMCA.

Sadly I have no seen a more insistent Chief who is publicly pushing for MRFA imports.

He is making a virtue of the necessity of Tejas planes.
Its like I agree to your planes now give me my hangar queens.

[Manish_P]

Hence every US visit, the F-35 is on the table.
...

Ramana ji, they had put it on the table earlier with the rider that India not go for the S-400 AD systems.

Are there any indications if that has changed... more so now that we actually have a S-400 system in place (having noted that there are delays in receiving the complete order)?

[Pratyush]

The F 35 can make sense provided we become full fledged US, "Alliance partner".

[Manish_P]

In my noob thinking process, only engines make sense. Until we develop our own, we have no choice but to spread the risk.

American for the Tejas (already in place) and Russian is already there with the Sukhois.

TEDBF could be american powered, AMCA french (my wish/preference ).

And Kaveri iterations for the UCAVs.

[Rakesh]

To negotiate the sale of a mere 26 Rafale Ms for the Indian Navy, Dassault CEO (and his associate) are sure meeting a lot of high level personnel in the GOI and in the services

Take special note below of two individuals - Jaishankar and Doval - who were *KEY* in the negotiations for the GTRE-Safran JV for a 110kN low bypass turbofan for AMCA. There is otherwise no need really for our Foreign Minister and our NSA to meet them. I am waiting for the roadmap (supposed to come out in December) for this JV. The rumour is that the same turbofan will be aboard the TEDBF as well.

https://x.com/ians_india/status/1710970 ... 06420?s=20 ---> Eric Trappier, Chairman and CEO Dassault Aviation, manufacturer of French Rafale fighter aircraft accompanied by Richard Lavaud, head military aircraft sales, will be here on Monday and Tuesday for senior level meetings. They are likely to meet senior officials in the PMO, the Defence Ministry, the External Affairs Minister S Jaishankar, the NSA Ajit Doval, the Defence Secretary Giridhar Aramane, the Navy Chief, Admiral R. Hari Kumar and the Air Force Chief, Air Chief Marshal Marshal V.R. Chaudhari.

Chairman and CEO Dassault Aviation arrives in Delhi on Monday to negotiate Indian Navy order for 26 Rafale fighters
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/bus ... 260445.cms
08 Oct 2023

Chairman and CEO Dassault Aviation arrives in Delhi on Monday to negotiate Indian Navy order for 26 Rafale fighters
https://bhaskarlive.in/chairman-and-ceo ... -fighters/
08 Oct 2023

[Rakesh]

And look where our Raksha Mantri, Rajnath Singh will be at that moment

Purchase of the Rafale M comes under his ministry and he himself will not be present, because he will be in France.

The MRFA is coming and it will likely be the Rafale. An assembly factory in India will be set up for that purpose.

Rajnath Singh's four-day visit to Italy, France from Monday with focus on industrial cooperation
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08 Oct 2023