VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 05 May 2021 19:06

Vips wrote:The 150 Mirage's would have been good till now but no further. Countries like Qatar and Egypt have Mirage 2000 but have since moved on. If we had only Porkistan as a neighbour yes those Mirages would have been good even for another decade but with china as our enemy No 1 they would not/will not be enough.

I am referring to the 150 (40 off the shelf + 110 made by HAL) Mirage 2000 order from the 80s. Had the GOI done that back then, the IAF would not be hunting for 114 MRFA fighters today and the IAF would not have purchased 36 Rafales either. Same with the HDW 209 submarine deal as well.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 05 May 2021 19:11

Vips wrote:The French will for certain try to gouge us by claiming F4 version > F3. I tried finding which version the Egyptians have opted for in the latest order but have not been able to come across more specifics of that deal.

The Rafale EM (single seater) and Rafale DM (twin seater) variants in the Egyptian Air Force is the F3O-4T variant. The second batch of 30 aircraft will be in the F3R standard. The earlier batch will be upgraded to the F3R standard.

No Rafale F4 variant exists as of yet, however reportedly the Rafale F4 has been offered (on paper) to the IAF to match or exceed the other contestants in the MRFA contest. Since 114 aircraft will not come, a small batch of F4s and upgrading the first 36 will work out cheaper than acquiring 114 birds. India also operates the F3R variant, but with India Specific Enhancements.

French stuff is pricey, but it works i.e. Balakot. Also, India does not have to deal with the perpetual political whining & shenanigans such as with Uncle Sam.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Vivek K » 05 May 2021 21:12

I50 Mirages would have kept Rafales out. The Rafale fleet therefore plus the M2K fleet size should be that much to counter two hostile neighbors. So another 36 Rafales should be purchased ASAP and delivered quickly. This would allow time for the Mk2 and AMCA to develop and mature without loss of capability. LCA Mk2 can definitely replace the Jag + Mig -27 fleets. IAF should be looking to grow to 45 squadrons. LCA can help with that enhancement.
GOI should look at building private capability to manufacture and design aircraft. HAL privatization, support to others (Taneja Aerospace) should be considered forthwith so that MK2 and AMCA designs can go to private lines. Also release of orders would become easier with use of private entities.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Vips » 05 May 2021 22:31

Three more Rafale fighter jets to arrive in India tonight.

Three more French-origin Rafale fighters are slated to touch down in India, after mid-air refueling by tankers of France and UAE, on Wednesday night.

The three new jets will add to the 17 such omni-role fighters, which have a combat range of 780-km to 1,650-km without mid-air refueling, already delivered to India.

IAF will get all the 36 twin-engine Rafales, contracted under the Rs 59,000 crore deal inked with France in September 2016, by next year.The first Rafale squadron, 17 `Golden Arrows’ Squadron, is already operational at the Ambala airbase. The second, 101 `Falcons’ Squadron, in turn, will now come up at the Hasimara airbase in West Bengal, as was reported by TOI earlier.

The 4.5-generation Rafales are armed with long stand-off weapons like the over 300-km range `Scalp’ air-to-ground cruise missiles. The fighters are also being equipped with the top-notch Meteor air-to-air missiles, which with a strike range of 120 to 150-km can outgun any missile that can currently be unleashed by Pakistani or Chinese jets.

IAF has also ordered the “Hammer” air-to-ground precision-guided munitions for the Rafales, in a deal that came last year amidst the ongoing military confrontation with China in eastern Ladakh.

With a strike range of 20 to 70-km, the Hammer munitions are designed to destroy bunkers, hardened shelters and other targets in all terrains, including the mountainous one in Ladakh.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby LakshmanPST » 11 May 2021 02:42

Vips wrote:Three more Rafale fighter jets to arrive in India tonight.

Three more French-origin Rafale fighters are slated to touch down in India, after mid-air refueling by tankers of France and UAE, on Wednesday night.


Did these 6th batch jets land in India...?
I haven't seen any proper news item (except 1 or 2 vague news articles)... Even @IAF_MCC didn't tweet anything about this, which they normally do...

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby LakshmanPST » 12 May 2021 05:49

LakshmanPST wrote:
Vips wrote:Three more Rafale fighter jets to arrive in India tonight.

Three more French-origin Rafale fighters are slated to touch down in India, after mid-air refueling by tankers of France and UAE, on Wednesday night.


Did these 6th batch jets land in India...?
I haven't seen any proper news item (except 1 or 2 vague news articles)... Even @IAF_MCC didn't tweet anything about this, which they normally do...


The only credible source I found is this tweet from official account of Indian Embassy in France--->
https://twitter.com/Indian_Embassy/stat ... 60032?s=19

It shows pics of pilots on tarmac before takeoff. So, the 6th batch probably arrived. But surprised to see not even a single confirmatory tweet or news article regarding the same.

In a way it is good that deliveries became a routine affair now and they're not overhyping Rafales like before.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kartik » 15 May 2021 14:07

No.101 'Falcons' squadron to be resurrected with the arrival of 4 more Rafales.

IAF set to resurrect 101 Squadron at Hashimara base with 4 more Rafale jets

At the end of May, the Air Force will have 24 Rafale fighter jets in India, with another seven kept for training purposes in France and only five more to be handed over before the two squadrons are complete.

With another batch of four Rafale fighters landing at Ambala from Merignac-Bordeaux airbase in France on May 19-20, the Indian Air Force (IAF) is all set to resurrect the 101 “Falcons of Chamb” squadron at Hashimara in West Bengal even as advance units have already moved into the new base.


While the exact date of Rafale landing in India will be determined by availability of mid-air refuellers of the UAE Air Force and weather conditions, it is quite evident that the full deliveries of 36 aircraft will be completed well before April 2022 as announced by Union defence minister Rajnath Singh in Parliament. At the end of May, the IAF will have 24 Rafale fighter jets in India, with another seven kept for training purposes in France and only five more to be handed over before the two squadrons are complete.

The last five aircraft may be delivered in the second-half of 2021 as Egypt has placed an order of 30 Rafale fighters.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ramana » 18 May 2021 05:32

Rakesh or any one what are differences between F3 vs F4?
And does latter exist?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby m_saini » 18 May 2021 06:58

Ramana sir, some info about the F3-R vs F4

Rafale F3-R standard qualified by the DGA
On 31 October 2018, the F3-R standard of the Rafale was qualified by the French defense procurement agency (DGA)

The upgrades:
The European Meteor long-range air-to-air missile produced by MBDA.
The Thales Talios new-generation laser designator pod.
The laser homing version of the Safran AASM Air-to-Ground Modular Weapon.
F3 R also includes upgrades to the Rafale sensors and to systems ensuring total interoperability.

Rafale F3-R standard declared fully operational
As previously reported by Janes, the F3-R standard comprises major software and hardware upgrades that include the integration of the Meteor beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) and the latest laser-guided version of the Sagem Armement Air-Sol Modulaire (AASM) modular air-to-ground precision weapon, the Thales RBE2 active electronic scanned array (AESA) radar, the Thales TALIOS long-range airborne targeting pod, an automatic ground collision avoidance system (Auto-GCAS), an improved buddy-buddy refuelling pod, and the Spectra electronic warfare system. The latest version of the Rafale will continue to carry the enhanced medium-range, air-to-ground missile (ASMPA) as part of airborne nuclear deterrence missions.


The F4

France Launches Rafale F4 Upgrade

Under current plans Standard F4 will be implemented in two increments, the first in 2023 and the second in 2025.
The first batch of F4.1 Rafales will comprise 28 aircraft, already contracted for, while the later F4.2 batch will comprise 30 machines that are due for delivery by 2030.


Improvements
Further system enhancements will be made to the Rafale’s sensor suite, including the RBE2 AESA radar, Talios targeting pod, and the OSF frontal sector optronics system. Likewise, the Spectra electronic warfare system will also receive improvements to maintain its ability to deter emerging threats. Weapons enhancements will be made through future developments of the ASMP-A nuclear missile, Scalp stand-off attack missile, MICA NG air-to-air missile, and a 1000-kg version of the AASM precision-guided weapon. In-service support and readiness will be improved through the adoption of processes such as fault diagnosis assistance, preventative maintenance, and the upgrading of the M88 engine’s computer


Rafale “F4” standard launched

F4 will include a new Prognosis and Diagnostic Aid System introducing predictive maintenance capabilities. Other maintenance optimization features are scheduled, particularly with solutions based on Big Data and artificial intelligence. Lastly, the Rafale will be equipped with a new engine control unit.

France Testing Scorpion Combat Vehicle Helmet as part of F4 Standard Rafale Jet
France’s Director General of Armamements (DGA) has commenced testing the helmet from the Scorpion combat vehicle on the Rafale fighter jet as part of its F4 standard, the next planned upgrade of the Rafale.

The French defense ministry said DGA carried out compatibility tests on the Thales Scorpion helmet sight on the Cazaux site (Gironde) with the parachute evacuation of a Rafale pilot.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby srai » 19 May 2021 11:45

^^^
IAF won’t be upgrading to F4 standards anytime soon. Probably IAF Rafale MLU would occur around 2035/40. By then, there will be plenty of Indian components available for consideration.

However, new weapons integration (Indian, French and Israeli) will be ongoing. Indigenous ones would be Brahmos-NG, Nirbhay ALCM, Rudram ASM series, Gurav/Gautam glide bombs, HSLD/PG and probably Astra AAM series.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ramana » 19 May 2021 12:51

m_saini, Thanks, exactly what I was looking for.
Gracias.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby LakshmanPST » 25 May 2021 11:49

France begins Rafale F4 flight trials
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... ght-trials

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby LakshmanPST » 25 May 2021 11:52

Kartik wrote:No.101 'Falcons' squadron to be resurrected with the arrival of 4 more Rafales.

IAF set to resurrect 101 Squadron at Hashimara base with 4 more Rafale jets


With another batch of four Rafale fighters landing at Ambala from Merignac-Bordeaux airbase in France on May 19-20,


Any news about the delivery of 7th batch of 4 Rafales...?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Vips » 28 May 2021 17:59

LakshmanPST wrote:
Kartik wrote:No.101 'Falcons' squadron to be resurrected with the arrival of 4 more Rafales.

Any news about the delivery of 7th batch of 4 Rafales...?


3 more Rafale jets land in India from France.

Another batch of three Rafale fighter jets landed at the Ambala airbase on Thursday, taking the total number of Rafales in the Indian Air Force (IAF) inventory to 23.

According to people aware of the development in Dassault, four aircraft were supposed to take off from Merignac-Bordeaux airbase in France on May 20, but only three could because of the unavailability of more mid-air refuellers in the UAE.

Although four Rafale Omni role fighters were supposed to leave on May 20, the flights were rescheduled due to maintenance issues with the mid air refuellers. The fighters could only take off today due to long weekend holidays in France, the people cited above said.

The IAF is all set to resurrect the 101 “Falcons of Chamb” squadron at Hashimara in West Bengal. It is expected that the full deliveries of 36 Rafale aircraft will be completed well before April 2022 as announced by Union defence minister Rajnath Singh in Parliament.

With India likely to buy more front-line fighters to complete the stalled requirement of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), the French have not only offered hot engine technology to India but are also willing to jointly develop extended range and capability Hammer air-to-ground missile under the Atmanirbhar Bharat route. French engine manufacturer Safran has already conveyed the offer for jointly developing aircraft engines upto 100 Kilo Newton thrust as well as share the hot engine technology which Indian allies in the west are reluctant to share.

France has also offered to share and jointly develop technology for longer range and heavier Highly Agile and Manoeuvrable Munition Extended Range (Hammer) missile which is currently part of the weapons package on the Indian Rafale. With a range of over 70 kilometres, the Hammer weapon can be guided on to the target using GPS, Inertial Navigation and Infra-red seeker with the capability to adjust to target location mid-air using maps for course correction. The latest version of this weapon has a 1,000 kilogram bomb and with laser guidance technology.

India ordered 36 warplanes from France (equivalent of two squadrons) in 2016 for ₹59,000 crore under a government-to-government deal.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 30 Jun 2021 06:44

‘Super-Rafales’: Dassault Plans To Produce F5 Variant Of Rafale Jets Amid Rising Global Demand & Competition
https://eurasiantimes.com/super-rafales ... mpetition/
26 June 2021

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 30 Jun 2021 06:48

The European Intervention Initiative Conference: An Update on European Defense Cooperation
https://sldinfo.com/2021/06/the-europea ... operation/
22 June 2021

The Dassault Aviation Rafale fighter jet will be operational to “2065-ish,” Parisot said.“Rafale will continue to evolve,” he said. An F4 version is in the pipeline, and there is thought on an F5, which will carry the ASN4G weapon, a planned hypersonic fourth-generation nuclear missile. There will be F6 and F7 versions of the Rafale, which will be a “workhorse,” he said.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby LakshmanPST » 04 Jul 2021 08:53

French judge tasked with probing Rafale jet sale to India
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 089209.cms

Not able to Copy Paste the entire article but they seem to be mixing up separate deals intentionally...
The investigation seems to be mainly about Dassault selecting Reliance as a partner...
Funnily enough, Reliance was selected for MRFA deal, which is currently not going anywhere...
And this got nothing to do with actual 36 Rafale G2G contract...

This is some RG level stuff...

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby jamwal » 12 Jul 2021 14:12

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NvV2Us7OCM


Made this video simulating a skirmish between Indian Rafales and Pakistani JF-17s.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby kit » 13 Jul 2021 04:30

Rakesh wrote:‘Super-Rafales’: Dassault Plans To Produce F5 Variant Of Rafale Jets Amid Rising Global Demand & Competition
https://eurasiantimes.com/super-rafales ... mpetition/
26 June 2021


Good development, they seem to be committed to the proposed roadmap of iterative enhancements
"An F4 version is in the pipeline, and there is thought on an F5. There will be F6 and F7 versions of the Rafale, which will be a “workhorse,” he said"

https://twitter.com/Marsattaqueblog/status/1407719364149788675

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby brar_w » 13 Jul 2021 04:37

The Rafale upgrade cycle should closely mirror that of the Mirage-2000. They'll upgrade it as they transition to the FCAS/SCAF which is aiming for a late 2030's IOC. After that the two platforms will have to compete for funding.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby viveks » 13 Jul 2021 21:54

Did the deliveries stop?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Vips » 14 Jul 2021 02:25

IAF's second Rafale squadron to get operational by July 26.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) will get a major boost along the China border in the northeast as the force would be making its second Rafale fighter aircraft squadron operational by July 26.

The Rafale aircraft which have already arrived in Ambala would start ferrying to the Hashimara air base in next few days and the squadron would get operational by July 26, government sources told ANI in New Delhi.

The 101 squadron would be mainly responsible for looking after the eastern frontier with China-based in Hashimara while the 17 squadron in Ambala would be looking after the Northern borders with China in Ladakh and other areas along with Pakistan.

The Air Force has received around 25 aircraft :?: from France and more are expected to be delivered in the next few months out of the 36 planes that India had ordered in 2016.

The planes have already been operationalised in the service within few days of their arrival in July and they have already been deployed for air patrols along the eastern front with China and the new squadron would be functioning with the fleet of Su-30 squadrons already deployed in the eastern sector in significant numbers.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby LakshmanPST » 21 Jul 2021 21:46

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1417 ... 95840?s=19
Three Rafale aircraft arrived in India a short while ago, after a direct ferry from #IstresAirBase, France.

IAF deeply appreciates the support by UAE Air Force for in-flight refuelling during the non-stop ferry.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 22 Jul 2021 01:56

viveks wrote:Did the deliveries stop?

See post above this one

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby viveks » 22 Jul 2021 06:30

After a while...lagta hain congress ne finance minister ko ghooss khilakar temporarily rok laga di thi. It has only been the BJP government that launched ambitious projects post indira gandhi. She and her father were definitely very forward thinking people. It is sad that they had to pay their lives for it. Indian population is a difficult audience...especially...if you look closely...the people who you grow up with are so much dearth and discontentful with almost everything within the country, be it including their very own neighbor.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby shaun » 22 Jul 2021 09:37

How true is this story of spectra blocking su35 Bars miles away and rendered 35s completely blind ?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby viveks » 22 Jul 2021 10:53

shaun wrote:How true is this story of spectra blocking su35 Bars miles away and rendered 35s completely blind ?


They will keep that quiet. Must be testing the "Active Radar Cancelling" tech. They wont release the performance figures.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby viveks » 22 Jul 2021 11:06

And the Russian tech will be beat them by developing out of the box testing! If india really values the non alignment movement, they will release the figures to the manufacturing/supplying countries.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ramana » 23 Jul 2021 04:43

One impressive thing is how soon the Rafales are being deployed to active service.
Even Tejas took a while to be declared ready for active service.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 23 Jul 2021 04:55

Dassault states that transition from Mirage 2000 to Rafale is relatively easy. So the turnaround time for pilots will be quicker. The initial batch of Rafale pilots will definitely have seasoned M2K pilots in the roster. Serviceability is also vastly improved vis-a-viv Mirage 2000, so fleet availability will be high. India has negotiated for 75% fleet availability for the first five years I believe. Full integration however will take time, as will be with any combat aircraft.

No 20 Lightnings was tasked with creating the training syllabus for the Su-30MKI, a syllabus which all Rambha squadrons adopted at their raisings. That syllabus took time. With Tejas, No 45 Squadron is more or less doing the same thing as No 20 Lightnings did back in 2001/2002.

Also unlike Rafale, Tejas has no prior operational experience. So everything has to be done from scratch. And Tejas being a desi bird, it is imperative that all i's are dotted and t's are crossed. The import lobby is waiting with bated breath for the first crash to occur, to argue for imports. Cannot drop the ball and cannot afford to cut corners. One famous American analyst already said that India needs to reconsider her investment in the Tejas program and rather purchase the most affordable fourth generation fighter available i.e. F-16 :)

Ramana-ji, I don't mean to sound hyperbole....but when the first Tejas crashes, there will be mass hysteria among the import lobby.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 23 Jul 2021 09:42

viveks wrote:
shaun wrote:How true is this story of spectra blocking su35 Bars miles away and rendered 35s completely blind ?


They will keep that quiet. Must be testing the "Active Radar Cancelling" tech. They wont release the performance figures.

What is really aggravating about this is that even a country like Egypt with 1/10th of India's GDP easily orders follow on birds. But look at the tamasha in desh - so frustrating.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby viveks » 23 Jul 2021 19:39

And then the media talks of cost and our former defence minister is forced to equate buying jets to buying moong and toor daal! :D :lol: :lol:

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Vivek K » 23 Jul 2021 20:14

The nonchalant attitude to imports is a specialty here on BRF! When you buy an imported weapon system, you are committing to it for its 40 year life cycle with at least one major MLU that will end up costing more than the initial purchase. And when you have competing needs for resources and cheaper domestic products available, there will be a tight-rope that decision makers walk.

But what amazes me is the glee with which Indians send their jobs overseas. That is unique and not seen anywhere. The world over we observe countries pushing domestic products over imports. But here we have people boasting/complaining that smaller economies make decisions faster. I would take the longer time to decide on imports any day - perhaps the smaller economies don't have a hope of ever having a domestic MIC.

People take this attitude of - buy 2 more squadrons and be done with it. What is the rationale behind 2 additional squadrons? Is that a comfort number? Or is IAF short of 2 squadrons of this particular type? Or it is the number needed to counter a specific number of enemy squadrons arrayed against us? Realize this, a new order will mean first deliveries at least 3 years from the contract signing and perhaps total deliveries in 3 years from that date. Is that schedule optimal for national security? Can alternatives be available earlier?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Vips » 23 Jul 2021 21:15

shaun wrote:How true is this story of spectra blocking su35 Bars miles away and rendered 35s completely blind ?


Egypt had the choice to buy more Rafales or SU35 when it wanted additional 4.5++ jets. Now there has to be a very compelling reason why Egypt opted for Rafale's which are more expensive compared to the SU35 that were offered by Russia.

Egypt is the only country which has both the types in its fleet so any news coming from there has to be considered as credible.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 23 Jul 2021 21:34

Vivek K wrote:People take this attitude of - buy 2 more squadrons and be done with it. What is the rationale behind 2 additional squadrons? Is that a comfort number? Or is IAF short of 2 squadrons of this particular type? Or it is the number needed to counter a specific number of enemy squadrons arrayed against us?

You answered your own question - on the validity of two additional Rafale squadrons. This is your own post (which is the third one from top, in this very page of this thread) which I am reproducing here...

Vivek K wrote:I50 Mirages would have kept Rafales out. The Rafale fleet therefore plus the M2K fleet size should be that much to counter two hostile neighbors. So another 36 Rafales should be purchased ASAP and delivered quickly. This would allow time for the Mk2 and AMCA to develop and mature without loss of capability. LCA Mk2 can definitely replace the Jag + Mig -27 fleets. IAF should be looking to grow to 45 squadrons. LCA can help with that enhancement.

Another two squadrons is not a comfort number, but rather to capitalize on the investment made on the first 36. That investment is primarily in the infrastructure that is set up at Ambala and Hasimara that can house two squadrons each of the Rafale. Then there is the investment made in the simulators, tools, etc. As per the IAF, they are short of 6 - 7 squadrons of MRFA/MMRCA, but an additional two - at this stage - will help. But you put it best - time for the Mk2 and AMCA to develop and mature without loss of capability.

Vivek K wrote:Realize this, a new order will mean first deliveries at least 3 years from the contract signing and perhaps total deliveries in 3 years from that date. Is that schedule optimal for national security? Can alternatives be available earlier?

Increased deliveries can come, but the Govt will have to pay for the increased delivery schedule.

There is no point in yet another "phoren" 4th generation fighter with the purchase of Rafale. So anything with a new OEM will take longer than three years. This is our MoD after all. Buying additional Rafales will take three years at minimum, because the infrastructure is already set up. So nothing to re-invent. Thus any phoren fighter will take a minimum of three years.

The only other alternative will be a local fighter i.e. Tejas. But the same scenario exists here as well, as with the recent order of 83 Tejas Mk1As. The first batch of fighters will arrive only by early 2024, as the deal was signed on 03 Feb 2021. Again, the three year timeframe stands. That is largely an industry standard. That timeframe can be reduced, but not at this stage. All the Tier 2 and Tier 3 suppliers have to start their manufacturing processes for the Tier 1 integrator to do its job.

The 21 MiG-29s on offer will also take three years for delivery. The 12 Su-30MKIs - also in negotiation - are attrition replacements, but I am unsure how long that will take to arrive. The GOI does not have the money or the political will to purchase 114 phoren fighters. At this stage, another two squadrons of Rafale + 83 Tejas Mk1A + 21 MiG-29s is best and should give the IAF *some* breathing room to reassess the falling squadron strength. Improved serviceability of the present combat fleet is also vital in keeping the numbers up.

This also gives room for the upcoming Tejas Mk2, which is expected to arrive towards the end of this decade. No new fighter - local or phoren - will come earlier anyway. The 21 MiG-29s will arrive only by the middle of this decade, assuming a deal is signed this year. Same with the 83 Tejas Mk1As. Same with another 36 Rafales. And even longer for another 4th generation fighter. So none of these schedules are optimal for national security. And no alternatives can be made available earlier. This is the reality.

In the midst of all this talk of production and delivery schedule, please do not forget a key component - pilot training. A point that is consistently overlooked - not by you - by many on BRF. So even if all the stars align for India and by some divine miracle, 100+ fighters (local or phoren) arrive in a year or two...it will be pointless if there are no qualified pilots to fly them.

Modern combat aircraft require less focus on the flying component and more on the mastery of the avionics and sensors. Just because pilots are available and can understand the basic laws of flight, that does not mean they can exploit the strength of the platform. One cannot expect Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman to fly a Rafale F3R into combat, just because he is qualified to fly a MiG-21 Bison or a Su-30MKI. It does not work that way at all and the IAF is a stickler for rules and safety, as it should be.

There are set syllabus that every pilot, on any platform in service with the IAF, must complete to be fully qualified. And depending on where the pilot is in the training syllabus, he/she can also be deputed to train the new rookies that join the squadron. But training takes time and training a roster of pilots in a squadron takes even longer. There is no magic wand for this. Therefore just adding planes is pointless. Not to mention the CDS is against the idea of doing large purchases, as he recently commented on the MRFA deal and stated staggered purchases are better.

Vips
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Vips » 24 Jul 2021 04:25

Rakesh wrote:The 21 MiG-29s on offer will also take three years for delivery.


Has this been mentioned officially by the Russians ? 3 Years to deliver 21 aircrafts? IIRC, these jets are already half manufactured and have been mothballed.
Last edited by Vips on 24 Jul 2021 04:26, edited 1 time in total.

nachiket
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby nachiket » 24 Jul 2021 04:26

Vips wrote:
Rakesh wrote:The 21 MiG-29s on offer will also take three years for delivery.


Did your read this somewhere? 3 Years to deliver 21 aircrafts? IIRC, These jets are already half manufactured and have been mothballed.

They will have to be upgraded to IAF UPG standards as well.

Vips
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Vips » 24 Jul 2021 04:27

Yeah but that takes 3 years?

nachiket
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby nachiket » 24 Jul 2021 04:31

Vips wrote:Yeah but that takes 3 years?

Try to understand what "half manufactured" and "mothballed" would mean in Russian terms, if all the airframes are even half manufactured in the first place. Remember how long it took to "refurbish" the Gorshkov.

Vips
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Vips » 24 Jul 2021 04:40

Do not want to go anymore OT but the airframes are ready, the MIG assembly lines are empty, the UPG upgrade program is already something that MIG has experience on so why would it still take 3 years to fill out the airframes?

OK. One reason i can now think of: our payment must be stretching out over 3 years.


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