Indian Naval Aviation

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Rakesh
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Manish_P wrote: 18 Jul 2023 17:09 IIRC AM Chopra (Rtd) had mentioned that the costs of the 'costly' Mirage 2000 started becoming lower than the costs of the 'cheap' MiG 29 after a period of just 5 years.

Would that also hold true for the Rafale vis-a-vis the Su 30 MKI?
Most definitely. The Su-30MKI's fleet availabiltiy was hovering in the mid-fifties, until Manohar Parrikar intervened and got it back up. I cannot remember the figure it went back up to. Russian aircraft are rugged and work well, when they are available to fly :)

I believe it was Air Marshal Harish Masand (retd) - a former MiG-29 pilot - who used to refer to the Mirage 2000 as Delicate Darlings due to her smooth and refined airframe. The MiG-29 - on the other hand - was anything but! However, she could out-turn and out fly the Mirage 2000 in a dogfight. But when it came to fulfilling key missions in the IAF (i.e. Tiger Hill in 1999 and Balakot in 2019), it was the Mirage 2000 that did the job.

The PBL (Performance Based Logistics) contract for the IAF Rafales is 75% fleet availability for the first five years. While we do not have actual data to verify that (unless it comes out in a CAG report in the future), you can be certain that the Rafale's fleet availability is well above 75%.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Manish_P »

The fuel consumption for the rafale is also lower than the Sukhoi. The IAF will use both fighters with their mated long range standoff AGM weapons as per the situation.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by RoyG »

Manish_P wrote: 18 Jul 2023 19:20 The fuel consumption for the rafale is also lower than the Sukhoi. The IAF will use both fighters with their mated long range standoff AGM weapons as per the situation.
This is the power of NAVIC.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

For those who do not know what NAVIC is, please go here ---> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Re ... ite_System

@RoyG: Silent readers on BRF might not know the acronyms being used. Please provide a link for them to refer to. Thanks.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Manish_P »

RoyG wrote: 18 Jul 2023 19:26
Manish_P wrote: 18 Jul 2023 19:20 The fuel consumption for the rafale is also lower than the Sukhoi. The IAF will use both fighters with their mated long range standoff AGM weapons as per the situation.
This is the power of NAVIC.
Not sure i understand. Could you please elaborate.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Manish_P wrote: 18 Jul 2023 19:20 The fuel consumption for the rafale is also lower than the Sukhoi. The IAF will use both fighters with their mated long range standoff AGM weapons as per the situation.
An older, but still relevant article, from 2019.

Rafale and Su-30MKI together will be potent combo
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/r ... 2019-07-11
12 July 2019
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Manish_P »

^ sir the above link is of a 19th July 2023 article about Safran-HAL plans...
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Oops! Sorry! I have edited the post.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Manish_P »

Rakesh wrote: 19 Jul 2023 22:46 Oops! Sorry! I have edited the post.
Thanks Rakesh ji. I now do recall reading this article - perhaps because it might have been posted in these forums earlier. The info the good AM gives is very sparse (and rightly so).

He doesn't say much except that the two birds can and will operate together and complement each other. Other veterans have also given some tidbits on how the IAF have used MiGs and Mirages together in the past, so I can well imagine the potential of this deadly duo.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by mody »

In the past, the IAF used M2K and Mig-29 in tandem. The Mig-29 were used purely in the air defense role, while the M2K were used in multirole.

In fact I remember IAF conducting a large aerial display for the general public in Mumbai and demonstrating something similar over the skies of marine drive. This was sometime in the late 90s. In the sequence that IAF demonstrated, Mig29s would engage with M2K for mock aerial combat and then Jaguars would sneak in for the ground attack mission, flying fairly low. The commentators tried to explain the whole sequence, but I guess 99.9% of the general public would have only seen planes flying around. This was also the time when the Su-30Ks had just been inducted and they too were part of the acrobatics display and also carried out similar exercise. One of them had been painted with the tri-colour on the bottom.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Manish_P »

mody wrote: 20 Jul 2023 17:01 In the past, the IAF used M2K and Mig-29 in tandem. The Mig-29 were used purely in the air defense role, while the M2K were used in multirole.
Yes. In kargil they conducted some Ops together, the MiG 29s giving top cover to the Mirages who conducted laser guided bombing

In fact I remember IAF conducting a large aerial display for the general public in Mumbai and demonstrating something similar over the skies of marine drive. This was sometime in the late 90s. In the sequence that IAF demonstrated, Mig29s would engage with M2K for mock aerial combat and then Jaguars would sneak in for the ground attack mission, flying fairly low...
If it was the mid 90s then i have witnessed this event. My first viewing of military birds. I was barely out of school or nearly out and visiting some relatives about 15 kms from marine drive. There was a deafening sound and even though their home was near the Mumbai airport I knew this was different because of how loud the roar was. I looked up and caught a glimpse of two MiGs 29s, one followed by the other, banking low enough to make out the twin vertical stabilizers. Must have been a second at most before they were obscured due to the buildings. I was just rooted to the spot and my older cousin had to grab my hand to get me to move :) ...
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Navy to set up team to negotiate deal for 26 Rafale Marines with France
https://theprint.in/defence/navy-to-set ... e/1676306/
19 July 2023
As reported earlier by ThePrint, a formal deal will only be signed after the new government is sworn in next year because the whole process will take that much time.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

The entire Indian naval air wing (P-8I, MH-60R, MQ-9A/B) is US in origin, but see what the Indian Navy thinks about American fighters. And the operation they are likely referring to is a nuclear one. And this is not the first time Indian Navy officers have raised this concern. Retired Indian Navy Admirals have raised the same concern.

Indian Navy’s Powerful Choice: Navy Rafale for Sea Dominance
https://www.financialexpress.com/busine ... e-3172073/
15 July 2023
The choice over the American F/A-18 Super Hornet, according to a senior officer: “The US would never allow India to use the fighter jets in an operation without its approval.”
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Rafales for Indian Navy I Behind the Rafale Deal with France I Rear Admiral Mukul Asthana (retd)

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Despite the author pushing the Boeing narrative, the F-18SH still lost.

Now he is back and explains why the Rafale M is not the right choice for the Navy.

The article ignores valid concerns and issues, but read for entertainment value :)

With the selection of the Rafale Marine by the Indian Navy, here's a look at how it happened, and the challenges and consequences ahead
https://stratpost.com/rafale-part-deux/
31 July 2023
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Rafale M vs J-15: Indian Navy Aircraft Carriers Have an Advantage over the Chinese
https://frontierindia.com/rafale-m-vs-j ... e-chinese/
02 Aug 2023
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Deal to buy 26 Rafale M | The Navy gets new wings
https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/India/de ... r-AA1etCcz
07 Aug 2023
Naval sources claim that the F-18 had difficulty fitting into the INS Vikrant's elevator even with its foldable wings. This was a big operational handicap. Though the Rafale-M does not have foldable wings, Dassault has agreed to make design changes—like tweaking the pylon structure of the aircraft—to make it suitable for the Vikrant. This enabled it to clear the Navy's technical parameters.
Former navy chief Admiral Arun Prakash, a naval pilot himself, endorses the navy's choice, adding that Rafale-M is currently the most advanced carrier-borne jet in its class. "It has got good sensors, can carry a variety of weapons and has good endurance, which brings tremendous enhancement of capability. Carrier-based fighters can go 300-400 miles to strike enemy territory or targets, affording an enhanced strike range. It provides air defence against enemy attacks and can be the navy's eyes and ears in the sky over the sea," Admiral Prakash adds.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Manish_P »

Rakesh wrote: 04 Aug 2023 03:16 Deal to buy 26 Rafale M | The Navy gets new wings
https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/India/de ... r-AA1etCcz
07 Aug 2023

...Though the Rafale-M does not have foldable wings, Dassault has agreed to make design changes—like tweaking the pylon structure of the aircraft—to make it suitable for the Vikrant. This enabled it to clear the Navy's technical parameters.
...


How exactly will tweaks in pylon structure address the issue of the tight fitting?
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by prahaar »

This may be referring to the wing tip pylons (together with the Mica or Magic missile) the lateral attachment, width increase would be significant. If those could be made vertical it might address the problem.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Manish_P »

prahaar wrote: 04 Aug 2023 14:59 This may be referring to the wing tip pylons (together with the Mica or Magic missile) the lateral attachment, width increase would be significant. If those could be made vertical it might address the problem.
Oh. I thought the width of the aircraft were typically only inclusive of the wingtip hardpoint (if present), but not inclusive of the missile.

A reduction of a minimum of 1 meter is required isn't it (more considering the even narrower hangar opening)?

(Edit - the bird has been selected, so the problem is solved. Just thinking on the exact nature of the solution)
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Kartik »

Rakesh wrote: 01 Aug 2023 22:11 Despite the author pushing the Boeing narrative, the F-18SH still lost.

Now he is back and explains why the Rafale M is not the right choice for the Navy.

The article ignores valid concerns and issues, but read for entertainment value :)

With the selection of the Rafale Marine by the Indian Navy, here's a look at how it happened, and the challenges and consequences ahead
https://stratpost.com/rafale-part-deux/
31 July 2023
What Saurabh Joshi doesn't see, till the last para, in his blinkered and very biased article is that the question of when the Rafale M deliveries can be made to the IN and possibly even the IAF, while very pertinent, is exactly what makes the likelihood of an Indian assembly line for the Rafale very promising. If Dassault cannot assure the IN deliveries within 3 to 4 years of contract signature then the IN will not go in for those Rafale Ms. Stop gap Rafale Ms from French Navy stock would be only for training aviators, maintainers and others to allow for early operationalization of the Rafale M fleet. But it cannot be the solution for delayed deliveries of new build Rafale Ms.

The problem of a huge backlog that Dassault and it's suppliers face is an opportunity for India to drive in a bargain. Quickly select the Rafale for the IAF and end the bloody MRFA tamasha, merge their numbers and you have a huge business opportunity that Dassault and it's suppliers will do anything to fulfill.

Commonality has a huge benefit for the forces and converging on the Rafale for the IAF and IN mean huge scales of commonality in training, maintenance, integration of indigenous weapons, etc. which will add up to a lot of savings in time, effort and money. For e.g. the IAF is asking for Astra Mk1/Mk2, SAAW, NGARM, possibly even Brahmos NG at a later date, to be integrated to the Rafale. IN can directly piggy back on that integration effort whereas if SHornets were acquired, it would mean doing all of it separately for a different aircraft, and that too if the USA would agree to such an integration.

The bias is so strong in the article that Saurabh Joshi fails to see how Super Hornet was never going to have a chance with the IAF, so the SHornet fleet was going to be restricted to 26 or a few more (if the assembly line hadn't shuttered by then) if the TEDBF doesn't arrive on time. The lack of a EA-18G Growler equivalent on the Rafale side is a disadvantage for sure. But the lack of a carrier capable twin seater isn't that big a deal with the SBTF being operational for training carrier pilots, after conversion on the regular Rafale Ds.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/lca_tejas_/status/1 ... 00128?s=20 ----> ALH Mk III MR of the Indian Navy.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

India to seek financial quotes for Rafale M from France, IAF requirement not on table
https://theprint.in/defence/india-to-se ... e/1733767/
28 August 2023
INS Vikrant, which is undergoing a scheduled compulsory refit/maintenance process, will likely use Indian Navy’s MiG 29K fighters to become fully operational in the meantime.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by srin »

^^^ I don't understand. Aren't financial bids submitted in sealed cover at the same time as technical bids ? This will ensure that the declared winner isn't going to charge an arm and leg.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by basant »

That is in the process of 2-bid tenders.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Kakkaji »

basant wrote: 28 Aug 2023 23:14 That is in the process of 2-bid tenders.
Wasn’t there a second bid from Boeing for the F-18?
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Kakkaji wrote: 28 Aug 2023 23:21
basant wrote: 28 Aug 2023 23:14 That is in the process of 2-bid tenders.
Wasn’t there a second bid from Boeing for the F-18?
AFAIK, there was not. Boeing's offer expired at the end of June.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by basant »

It does not matter how many bids (by vendors) are received in case of a 2-bid tender. If there was no tender, there is no necessity for 2-bids. I think the purchase is through G2G, so it will be different. IIRC, it was during ABV's time that the concept of L1 bid and tendering process began for defense deals, as the government was wary of earlier scandals. Of course, it was a terrible idea. This was the prime reason for India not going for Mirage 2K leading to the MRCA farce. And ended with spurious L1 as well!
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Aditya_V »

basant wrote: 28 Aug 2023 23:34 It does not matter how many bids (by vendors) are received in case of a 2-bid tender. If there was no tender, there is no necessity for 2-bids. I think the purchase is through G2G, so it will be different. IIRC, it was during ABV's time that the concept of L1 bid and tendering process began for defense deals, as the government was wary of earlier scandals. Of course, it was a terrible idea. This was the prime reason for India not going for Mirage 2K leading to the MRCA farce. And ended with spurious L1 as well!
Tehelka was conducted to screw Indian defense.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Pratyush »

srin wrote: 28 Aug 2023 22:46 ^^^ I don't understand. Aren't financial bids submitted in sealed cover at the same time as technical bids ? This will ensure that the declared winner isn't going to charge an arm and leg.
Even during the MMRCA competition price was submitted later.

In this particular case, from what I understand,the F18 has not been selected as a candidate for procurement.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by basant »

It was not Tehelka, the push came from the CAG and the government approved it. And the result was disastrous.

CAG slams NDA-1 for delaying Rafale deal, but lauds its move against IAF pitch
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 001116.cms
15 Feb 2019

"NEW DELHI: The Vajpayee government took the right decision in asking the Indian Air Force to agree to a multi-vendor bidding process to acquire a new fleet of medium-range fighters but the process consumed four long years during which the IAF kept pressing for the specific choice of Mirage 2000 II planes. The Comptroller and Auditor General's report on the Rafale acquisition traces the initiation of the proposal for the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) with the IAF in 2000 seeking to acquire 126 Mirage jets for induction from 2004-05. Two squadrons were to be directly procured from Dassault and the rest produced in India by HAL under licence.

The IAF's pitch for a single-source procurement was based on the Mirage's successful role in the 1999 Kargil war where the planes were used to target entrenched Pakistani positions high in the mountains. The proposal was not approved by the defence ministry on the grounds that this violated norms and called for a competitive tendering process. The IAF did not give up its bid to acquire the advanced version of Mirage jets and resubmitted its proposal, stating that other options like Rafale, Eurofighter and F-35 planes were technologically superior but costlier. The force claimed that the "excess combat capacity" of the aircraft would remain underutilised. Despite another cold shoulder, the IAF resubmitted its proposal in December 2001.

With IAF now arguing that the procurement be treated as a "repeat purchase", discussions were held between Dassault Aviation, HAL, DRDO and finance ministry from April to September 2002. In its report tabled in Parliament on Wednesday, the CAG expressed strong disapproval of this delay which dragged on till January 2004, before finally being junked and the IAF being directed to begin competitive tendering."

===================================================

Notwithstanding the public perception, the Congress government (sic.) under the leadership of Sh. PV Narasimha Rao, took a courageous decision in the procurement of Sukhoi-30 fighters paying 350M USD (in 1996) AFTER the election code of conduct was enforced, something that could have cost them the election. In doing so he made sure that India got a fighter that was the best in the world at the time of its induction (MKI not the earlier MK). To his credit, Mulayam allowed the deal to go through.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/IndiumOak/status/16 ... 35030?s=20 ---> Indian Navy's P-8I Maritime Patrol Aircraft operating 3,400 km away from home, near coast of Somalia on 30 August 2023. The flight lasted around nine hours. Nearest approach to Somalian coast was roughly 300 km.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/lca_tejas_/status/1 ... 77924?s=20 ---> MH-60R Romeo of the Indian Navy.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by hgupta »

What is the capacity of MH-60R Romeo compared to the Sea Kings that IN had?
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

hgupta wrote: 04 Sep 2023 22:38 What is the capacity of MH-60R Romeo compared to the Sea Kings that IN had?
Night and Day difference. On every measure of value, the MH-60R is a leap frog in capability. Combined with the P-8I and the MQ-9 Reaper, the Indian Navy will have a robust anti-submarine and anti-ship fleet. Long overdue for the Indian Navy. The 24 being acquired is not enough and more should be bought to be quite honest. Our aircraft carriers, destroyers and frigates will all need them.

From wiki chacha...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westland_Sea_King
Multi-purpose version for the Indian Navy, equipped for anti-submarine warfare, with dipping sonar and advanced avionics, and anti-shipping operations, with two Sea Eagle missiles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_ ... awk#MH-60R
The MH-60R was originally known as "LAMPS Mark III Block II Upgrade" when development began in 1993 with Lockheed Martin (formerly IBM/Loral). Two SH-60Bs were converted by Sikorsky, the first of which made its maiden flight on 22 December 1999. Designated YSH-60R, they were delivered to NAS Patuxent River in 2001 for flight testing. The production variant was redesignated MH-60R to match its multi-mission capability. The MH-60R was formally deployed by the US Navy in 2006.

The MH-60R is designed to combine the features of the SH-60B and SH-60F. Its avionics includes dual controls and instead of the complex array of dials and gauges in Bravo and Foxtrot aircraft, 4 fully integrated 8" x 10" night vision goggle-compatible and sunlight-readable color multi-function displays, all part of glass cockpit produced by Owego Helo Systems division of Lockheed Martin. Onboard sensors include: AAR-47 Missile Approach Warning System by ATK, Raytheon AAS-44 electro-optical system that integrates FLIR and laser rangefinder, ALE-39 decoy dispenser and ALQ-144 infrared jammer by BAE Systems, ALQ-210 electronic support measures system by Lockheed Martin, APS-147 multi-mode radar/IFF interrogator, which during a mid-life technology insertion project is subsequently replaced by APS-153 Multi-Mode Radar with Automatic Radar Periscope Detection and Discrimination (ARPDD) capability, and both radars were developed by Telephonics, a more advanced AN/AQS-22 advanced airborne low-frequency sonar (ALFS) jointly developed by Raytheon & Thales, ARC-210 voice radio by Rockwell Collins, an advanced airborne fleet data link SRQ-4 Hawklink with radio terminal set ARQ-59 radio terminal, both by L3Harris, and LN-100G dual-embedded global positioning system and inertial navigation system by Northrop Grumman Litton division. Beginning in 2020, CAE's MAD-XR has been fielded on MH-60Rs, providing it with a magnetic anomaly detector.

Offensive capabilities are improved by the addition of new Mk-54 air-launched torpedoes and Hellfire missiles. All Helicopter Anti-Submarine Light (HSL) squadrons that receive the Romeo are redesignated Helicopter, Strike Maritime (HSM) squadrons.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/lca_tejas_/status/1 ... 29343?s=20 ---> MMMA (Multi-Mission Maritime Aircraft) concept by CABS, DRDO.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

VIDEO: https://twitter.com/Kunal_Biswas707/sta ... 21805?s=20 ---> Animation on Indian Navy P-8I missions. Do note Wescam MX-20HD EO/IR Sensor which Indian Army also liked during P-8I missions over LAC. Worth mentioning, Army in past launched RFI for SIGINT, ELINT, COMINT & ISR suite for helicopter though no development afterwards.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

French officials visited India last week to discuss over USD 5.5 billion Rafale-M deal: Sources
https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 828213842/
28 Aug 2023
India and France have held multiple meetings prior to the approval given by the defence ministry.
The ones who can read the tea leaves will get it :)
The French side has stated that if required, it can increase the rate of production to 30aircraft per year from the existing 18 per year.
Was bound to happen considering the financial windfall Dassault is having with all the international Rafale orders.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Boeing eyes follow-on order for 6 P-8I maritime surveillance aircraft from Navy
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 1-amp.html
21 Sept 2023

Boeing’s Aatmanirbhar Bharat Initiative With P-8I Aircraft And Ambitions For More Orders
https://defencenewsupdates.com/boeing-c ... -aircraft/
21 Sept 2023
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Picture ruined due to him being in the picture! :roll:

https://x.com/battle_machines/status/17 ... 84503?s=20 ---> I find it interesting just how high the availability / mission rate is for western designs. The Indian Navy's 2 drone MQ-9B fleet had done over 10,000 hours in 2 years. Averaging almost 6-7 hours a day. That's wild!

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