Indian Interests_2

[Cyrano]

If you were to refer to our country in any of the indigenous languages (English is obviously not indigenous) would you say India or Bharat ? Except Urdu or Kashmiri which use arabic-persian scripts, in every other language we refer to our country as Bharat. In Urdu & Kashmiri, this country is called Hindustan. i.e. A place were Hindus live.

This right-wing Hindu nationalist dictatorship should actually rename India as Hindustan and then see the fun !

[bala]

The Hindu must be understood as a term invented by others. Sanatan Dharma was the norm. The Indian/Bharat constitution has clubbed all "native practices" of India which are completely indigenous (i.e. not borrowed from others or outside) under the umbrella of Hindu. Those include Vedic as well as native practices like animism, worship of ancestors, nastiks (who don't believe in the Vedas) and traditional cultures like Shaivite, Vaishnaivite, Sikhs, Jains, Buddhists and so on. Hindu-Stan is persian connotation of people living in Sindh or Indhus geographical area of erstwhile India desh. The "h" pronunciation is prevalent in persian, very similar to china's 'y'. Currently only those countries that are majority Islamic/muslim and have some persian, use the stan postfix, e.g. Kyrgystan, Tajikistan, Turmenistan, Pakistan, etc.

Bharat came from ancient ancestor name who ruled the country on dharmic principles.

[Cyrano]

Bala saar,
"stan" itself comes from Sanskrit "sthaan" meaning "place" or "abode" doesn't it ?
Agree that calling Bharat as Hindu-staan is also an outsider's term, and perhaps it was used to remind those people that its a kaafir land that must be converted.

Wonder how pre-islamic people referred to Bharat. Like India used to refer to Egypt as "Misra desham" or some European lands were loosely referred to as "Havana desham". Most countries and borders as we know today are the result of colonial carving up between European powers.

[bala]

The Global Deep State attacks everybody but Bharat has been a target since the BritShit days and continues even today.



Bharat PM N. Rao was warned against nuclear explosion. Bharat PM Vajpayee, did not let anyone know except those who need to know and then boom. Sanctions rained on Bharat like a brick. But Bharat weathered the sanctions. The deep state is very much active in every state of Bharat, media, BIF, opposition forces like a weed gone astray. The common folks of India are not aware of the behind the scenes machinations. However, slowly the word is getting out. With CY-3, Aditya, G20, etc India is changing the narrative. People are realising globally that India is a (super)power, can get along nicely and show due respect with the rest of the world, show leadership and take the mantle of technology ownership for the betterment of society. Pakis (terrorism) and China are being sidelined big time in the world. There is a world-wide allergic reaction to anything from China, including their goods stamped as "made in china". KashMore is no more in discussion (except for the occasional belching in Britshitstan), everyone is okay with abrogation of 370 including residents of Kashmir. World does not care for Kalistan (except True-doo-castro). Everyone is realizing that Dharmic Bharat provides leadership, peace, and even global Indic/Bharatiya personnel to run the show (Rishi in UK, Tharman in Singapore,..US white house is filled with India origin experts in every field and its global companies have chiefs of Bharat origin).

[ramana]

A YouTube video on how India fell to Europeans

[chetak]

G20 Summit: India-Middle East-Europe Economic Corridor (IMEC).

G20 Summit update: India-Middle East-Europe' economic corridor including shipping and railway links will be launched soon. The first-of-its-kind economic corridor will be a historic initiative on cooperation on connectivity and infrastructure involving India, UAE, Saudi Arabia, EU, France, Italy, Germany, and the US.

Biden, Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi and European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen announced the project during the annual Group of 20 summit of the world's top economies. The project is part of an initiative called the Partnership for Global Infrastructure Investment.

Saudi Arabia, the European Union, India, United Arab Emirates (UAE), France, Germany, Italy, and the US committed to work together to establish the India-Middle East-Europe Economic Corridor (IMEC).

The corridor is expected to stimulate economic development through enhanced connectivity and economic integration between Asia, the Arabian Gulf, and Europe.

The IMEC will comprise of two separate corridors, the east corridor connecting India to the Arabian Gulf and the northern corridor connecting the Arabian Gulf to Europe.

It will include a railway that, upon completion, will provide a reliable and cost-effective cross-border ship-to-rail transit network to supplement existing maritime and road transport routes – enabling goods and services to transit to, from, and between India, the UAE, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Israel, and Europe.

Along the railway route, they intend to enable the laying of cable for electricity and digital connectivity, as well as pipe for clean hydrogen export.

The White House report stated that the rail deal will link shipping and rail lines from India to Europe through the UAE, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Israel.

"The 'India-Middle East-Europe' economic corridor is historic. It will be the most direct connection till date that will make trade faster," said Ursula von der Leyen, European Commission President, at the Partnership for Global Infrastructure Investment (PGII) and India-Middle East-Europe Economic Corridor programme at Bharat Mandapam.

The consensus on the New Delhi declaration by all G20 member countries despite a divided house given the ongoing war in Ukraine and the West’s sanctions on Russia, the ambitious rail-port economic corridor deal to connect India-Middle East-Europe, and the launch of Global Biofuel Alliance on the summit sidelines seemed to have attracted investors to bet in the market.

[bala]

Bharat Mantriji Ashwini Vaishnaw explains the new Rail-Port corridor and also the digital public framework from Bharat.

The NDTV women is rather challenged about asking questions properly.



G20 is turning out to be a mini UN. Africa, Euros, and later latam will cover the world significantly. Trusted partner happens to be Bharat for all of them

[ramana]

The Making of Roman India. Greek Culture in the Roman World
Grant Parker, The Making of Roman India. Greek Culture in the Roman World. Cambridge/New York: Cambridge University Press, 2008. xiii, 357. ISBN 9780521858342 $99.00.

Review by Miguel John Versluys, Leiden University. m.j.versluys@arch.leidenuniv.nl

Scholarly literature on India and its civilisation in the Roman world most often deals with specific aspects. Recent studies, for instance, have predominantly focused on trade and trade relations between the Roman Mediterranean and the Indian subcontinent;1 other topics (sometimes) dealt with are the alien wisdom of Indian civilisation and, of course, Alexander the Great. By stopping his campaign at the Indus valley Alexander defined India as the edge of the world, an idea that would strongly influence the Romans. This is the first reason why writing a monograph that covers all aspects of ‘India in the Roman world’ would be a formidable task, as it is imperative for the author to master a very wide array of sources and social contexts ranging from Greek philosophy and Roman literature to the archaeology of both the ancient Mediterranean and India. The second reason, however, I consider even more important. India was never conquered by the Romans and was not a province in the sense that other parts of the ancient world were. However, it played an important role in the Roman imagination in various ways, often through traditions that were defined and demarcated in the Hellenistic era (and before). Hence there were two Indias in the Roman world: the physical land at the other side of the Indian Ocean and India as a cultural concept. Now a large majority of scholarly literature, especially that written by historians and archaeologists, only takes the first India, the physical country, into account. But an overall interpretation of India in the Roman world should also, or perhaps even primarily, be concerned with India as a cultural scenario and moreover develop a methodology to integrate both aspects.

In this well written and stimulating book Grant Parker has admirably succeeded in doing both — being a fine Alltertumswissenschaftler and a theoretically engaged intellectual historian at the same time — and the result is therefore a landmark study, not only of India in the Roman world but also of the cultural mentality of the Roman Empire. For Roman history and archaeology in particular, it must also be characterised as an original investigation as far as theory and methodology are concerned, because Parker is refreshingly radical in putting a reception studies approach central to his study. This has become quite common for the interpretation of classical texts; it is still quite unusual for historical and archaeological analyses. This is not a book, therefore, about the presence of Romans or Roman material culture in India or about (commercial and other) contacts between India and Rome; no, this is a book that dares to ask the overarching question: What did India mean to the Romans of the Empire?

The text is clearly divided into three main parts—”Creation of a discourse” (Part I), “Features of a discourse” (Part II) and “Contexts of a discourse” (Part III)—framed by an “Introduction” and a “Conclusion: intersections of a discourse”.

Part I (“Creation of a discourse”) consists of a chapter entitled “Achaemenid India and Alexander” and deals with what would become the origins of the Roman view of India. The various Greek accounts we have (Scylax, Hecataeus, Herodotos, Ctesias) are first discussed and interpreted, and then the campaigns of Alexander and their legacy. An important figure in the latter category is a certain Megasthenes who visited the court of the Maurya emperor Chandragupta as a member of the Seleucid royal entourage somewhere around 320 BC. It turns out that tropes of India as the land of marvels and of wisdom and holiness were already developed in this period: the elements of the image were fixed in an early stage. Moreover, Parker makes a strong and convincing case for the importance of an Achaemenid context for the development of this image. Scylax of Caryanda, the first Greek we know of who travelled to the Indian subcontinent, did so for Darius I, and Herodotos writes on India as part of a survey of Persian satrapies. The campaigns of Alexander would not change this image as dramatically as we perhaps would expect: the tradition is continued in all aspects but at the same time enriched by two important themes, the first of which is autopsy. The credibility of sources like Megasthenes was considered (much) higher because he had been there himself, although simultaneously the marvellous nature of what he said about India continued to be disbelieved. A second important theme is India as place-marker: after Alexander, India more and more comes to represent the utmost Other, a place far away from the Mediterranean, at the very edge of the world.

Part II (“Features of a discourse”) discusses how the Romans dealt with this (Achaemenid and Hellenistic) tradition in literature and material culture and is therefore divided into two chapters: “India described” on the one hand and “India depicted” on the other. “India described” discusses the reception of the earlier texts (and their relation to newly acquired knowledge) by authors like Diodorus Siculus, Strabo, Pliny the Elder, Arrian and others, always focusing “on the larger contexts within which India featured in Roman thinking” (69). Parker achieves this aim not by looking at individual authors but rather by discussing the genres in which indography features (historiography, geography, natural history and romance/mime) as well as what he describes as “topics of thought” versus “modes of description”. In the first category, he looks at how Roman authors address subjects like social division, gender relations and race in India, showing that not only is the description of these elements stereotyped but also that they are presented in standardised literary forms. Still, Parker cautiously concludes that there is a process of collecting knowledge about India, albeit a slow one. Hence, it largely is a history of ideas we see being described in this chapter, with, not surprisingly, Pliny’s Natural History as a nodal point. “India depicted” is a much shorter chapter in which Parker traces the visual traditions of the representations of India. Here Parker cannot always provide the depth that all the other parts of the book have, partly because there is (much) less material available, but partly also, perhaps, because as a classicist he is, logically, more at ease with texts than with material culture. In the visual tradition there seem to be several significantly different Indias or, to put it another way, different visual discourses each have their own ‘India’. All well known representations of India (or Indians) — like the marble head from the Villa Borghese, the Piazza Armerina mosaic and other personifications, and the 6th century AD platter from Istanbul) — are (critically) discussed, especially as far as their Indian character is concerned. Identification remains difficult, also, as Parker rightly underlines, because the cultural boundaries between different visual traditions are not always as clear cut as most scholars like to have them. ‘India’ and ‘Aethiopia’, for instance, often seem to be interchangeable and hence Parker concludes about the much discussed Piazza Armerina personification (used as illustration on the cover of his book) that “there is no need to make a hard-and-fast decision between an African, Egyptian and Indian identity for the Piazza Armerina woman” (142); instead he sees the figure as a mélange oriental.

Part III presents the “Contexts of a discourse” and does so in three chapters, entitled “Commodities”, “Empire” and “Wisdom”. Here we have the social context for all the images in literature and material culture that have been discussed so far and I found the presentation at this point of this background material most illuminating, especially because Parker maintains his reception studies approach here as well. The chapter on “Commodities”, for instance, is not a reconstruction of the trade between the Roman Mediterranean and the Indian subcontinent based on amphora-statistics, but rather an essay in cognitive geography. It is clear that goods regarded by the Romans as distinctly Indian carried with them a sense of the exotic. Parker argues persuasively that in view of the social meanings attached to those products we should not always take the places of origin mentioned for these commodities in ancient literature literally; the materiality of distance has a large role to play here. What matters is not, in fact, whether they were Indian, but whether they were perceived as Indian.”The mapping of India that took place through commodities was thus the mapping of Rome” (202) Parker concludes at the end of the chapter. As a general conclusion in a book revolving around the concept of discourse this sentence does not strike the reader as a surprise; but as the close to a chapter with a detailed description and interpretation of Indian commodities it is most worthwhile. In the chapter on “Empire” Parker follows more or less the same strategy by showing that India was never a real candidate for Roman military expansion (“as desirable in principle as it was unrealistic in practice” 221). It does, however, play an important role in the conception of Empire: India mattered as the edge of the world to underline that Rome was its centre. So, while the Indian subcontinent was not part of the Roman world in a political and military sense, it certainly was part of the Roman mental map. Another important factor here was the image of Alexander. Conquering India was seen as the ultimate goal of military achievement and hence became a symbolic expression of imperial power. This mode of perception would acquire an impressive dynamic of its own: when India was mentioned, Alexander was never far away; and vice versa. After “Commodities” and “Empire”, the chapter on “Wisdom” outlines the third social context important for the understanding of ‘India’ in the Roman world. The mystified knowledge of the Brahmans and Gymnosophists (‘the naked philosophers’) is part of a general Roman conception of the ‘East’ as a place where the priestly authorities are the guardians of special knowledge. Also here, therefore, “it is not so much a question of the Brahmans themselves, but of what underlying issues could be projected onto them” (304). It is their inherent exoticism that makes them attractive, Parker argues, and hence they become a kind of ethnic invention.

In his “Conclusion: intersections of a discourse” Parker summarizes the several phases of indography and illustrates their intertwinement and contextual functioning by an analysis of the India excursus by Curtius Rufus (8.9.1-36) before ending with a short (317-318) plea for the deconstruction of East-West dichotomies.

One of the great merits of this fascinating study is its fine balance between a typically post-modern, Foucauldian analysis and ancient realities. Parker has chosen to show the merits of his theoretical approach in the treatment of his data instead of tiring his readers with extensive summaries of (French) philosophy, and that works. If this is post-modernism in Classics, it’s great. Parker also has been wise to avoid a title with the now ubiquitous phrase “the invention of”. Although “the making of Roman India” is in the same vein, it much better implies the Hellenistic (and Achaemenid) stage on which the Romans built , while showing at a glance that the book excellently fits the Greek Culture in the Roman World series.

It is important to note that the discourse analysis used by Parker is particularly appropriate in the case of India, where ‘representations’ play a much more important role than physical encounters do. It is for that reason that the book has developed into “a history of representations that is concerned with social context” (7) as Parker characterises his own work in his Introduction. As such, however, the analysis proposed in the book is also very promising for the (archaeological) study of Rome and other Others (Greeks, Egyptians, Celts, etc.). In those cases it is often the ‘physical’ aspects alone that get the attention they deserve while the dynamic of the cultural scenarios these cultures represent at the same time remains underdeveloped.2 An important point with regard to the interplay between India real and imagined is Parker’s conclusion that the heightened commercial contacts in the first two centuries AD “made remarkably little impact on indography” (310). The image, so it seems, did not allow itself to be corrected by reality. This prompts all kinds of interesting questions on the relation between ‘real’ and ‘imagined’ in the case of Rome and Greece, or Egypt, or the Celts, where social realities did influence cultural discourses. But it also implies that in those instances a discourse analysis of (mainly) literary texts alone is not enough to understand what those cultures meant to the Romans.

In an ambitious and wide ranging book like the one reviewed here the specialist can always disagree with this or that aspect, and I am sure that some of Parker’s analyses of texts of individual writers will meet with criticism. As indicated above, as an archaeologist I myself would have liked to see material culture play a somewhat more important role. There is little to go on indeed but still these sources could sometimes have been better contextualised or have been put in a comparative perspective with other Orientalia to elucidate their contextual meaning.3 A second point of mild criticism concerns the author’s prudence in dealing with scholarly discussions. Most often he takes the middle road; this is intelligent but this reader sometimes would have liked to learn more. Such is the case, for instance, with the evocation of Saïd’s Orientalism or with the relation between the Roman image of India and later perceptions.

I believe, however, that such criticisms are not what a review of The Making of Roman India should be about. The case-study itself is treated in quite an exemplary way. But this is a book that through its approach deals with much more than the making of Roman India alone. It is about the nature of Rome as both a successor culture and a world Empire, and as such it deserves to be widely studied and used as a source of inspiration on how to deal with processes of cultural interaction in the Hellenistic and Roman world.

Notes

1. See now the overview provided by R. Tomber, Indo-Roman trade: from Pots to Pepper (Duckworth Debates in Archaeology) (London 2008) with earlier bibliography (BMCR 2009.06.45).

2. ‘Greece’ probably is an exception here; see T. Hölscher, Römische Bildsprache als semantisches System (Heidelberg 1987) and a range of recent books like E. Gazda (ed.), The ancient art of Emulation (2002); C.H. Hallett, The Roman nude. Heroic portrait statuary 200 BC-AD 300 (2005); M. Marvin, The language of the Muses: the dialogue between Greek and Roman sculpture (2008). Somewhat more in general on ‘cultural scenarios’ and their functioning, see E.S. Gruen (ed.), Cultural borrowings and ethnic appropriations in Antiquity (Oriens et Occidens (Stuttgart 2005); M.J. Versluys, “Exploring identities in the Phoenician, Hellenistic and Roman East. A review article,” Bibliotheca Orientalis 65 (2008) 342-356.

3. What could have been added, for instance, is discussion of terracotta figurines found in Egypt showing ethnic types, amongst which, it was thought, Indians (most probably not though; see S.-A. Ashton, Foreigners at Memphis? Petrie’s racial types, in: J. Tait (ed.), ‘Never Had the Like Occurred’: Egypt’s view of its past (London 2003) 187-196). What could have been better contextualised, for instance, is the ivory statuette from Pompeii (Fig. 10; Parker mentions the interesting suggestion (without reference) of it having been the leg of a small piece of furniture) for which see also T. Asaka, V. Iorio, …lucroque India admota est. Contatti tra l’India e l’area vesuviana, in: S.T.A.M. Mols, E.M. Moormann, Omni pede stare. Saggi architettonici e circumvesuviani in memoriam Jos de Waele (Studi della Soprintendenza archeologica di Pompei 9) (Napoli 2005) 324-330.

[ramana]

I wish some Indian author would write a book on the "Making of US India"
i.e how and what the image of India was formed in the US mind from the colonial times to the current G-20.

[chetak]

Bharat Mantriji Ashwini Vaishnaw explains the new Rail-Port corridor and also the digital public framework from Bharat.

The NDTV women is rather challenged about asking questions properly.

[youtube]VnuZJTkVrkU[youtube]

G20 is turning out to be a mini UN. Africa, Euros, and later latam will cover the world significantly. Trusted partner happens to be Bharat for all of them

bala saar,


some work seems to have already gone into this idea and discussions me be well underway

Ashwini Vaishnaw was the minister who was designated to receive MBS at the airport. This is not a mere coincidence. He is also technically much accomplished, vastly experienced and is India's Railway minister

India may well be angling to find the pole position in the construction work on the 'India-Middle East-Europe' economic corridor, and the infrastructure rail lines.

Besides rail lines, gas pipelines, power lines and optical fiber may also run in parallel

Double decker container carrying rolling stock on electrified lines is not technology that is used in this region of the world but is already running successfully in India

MBS is focused on the times ahead when saudis run out of oil and need reliable means and business to sustain their country

[bala]

Good points Chetak saar. Biden has bucked his own Deep State and views India favorably. The Eurotards are right on cue and follow the US lead. China has threatened to deep six both German automobiles and US automobiles on the import front. Don't know how well that can be pulled of, considering the aam admi in china is enamoured with Audi (their administrators choice car), VW, Merc Benz & Porche. There is a good following for the Buicks of America. I believe Biden wants India to take the mantle (away from China), considering the GDP rise, CY-3, etc. The Euros are mighty pleased with transit via Greece avoiding Turkey/Iraq. MBS has been ushering reforms in SA (many wonder whether he is anti Islamic) which the mullahs don't like. There is a frosty relationship with the US, however MBS does realize that the main defenders of SA happen to be western defence maal. For India/Bharat this IMEC is turning out to be a sweet deal (a huge dagger in Emperor Eleven). MBS has more faith in India to make things happen (infra play will be executed by India). The Euros have wanted something new, they are tired of the Chinese invading their cities (tourist traffic out of China targets Euro cities). Many Euros are taking notice of the Digital public infra play touted by India and they want the convenience of UPI (pay by phone directly from bank account without incurring a 3% charge by America's Visa/AmEx, etc.). India is already their back office IT.

[ramana]

Chetak long discussions helped the idea of Neo Petra route. Some stalwarts burnt midnight oil to get buyin of all stakeholders.

Note Erdogan.vehmently opposing the IMEC Corridor.


BTW the Age of Discovery or Exploration.started when Ottoman Turks and Mameluke Arabs prevented trade routes to India and further east.

Agreement on IMEC means finally that bottleneck for commerce and trade has been cleared.

And as usual Neo Ottoman Erdogan is objecting and demanding hafta.

This time around Europe needs IMEC and US is supporting to bring peace and stability to West Asia which hasn't happened since TE. Lawrence set fire to Aqaba.
So Erdogan will get regime change if he objects too much.

[ramana]

Bala It might happen China will use Mundra port as transhipment point in future.

Never say never.

[vimal]

How the wheels of history turns!
Arabs severed the connection between west and India. Now they are again creating the same route over the Arabian Sea and sands of Arabia.

[SivaR]

Not sure were to post this. Its one of the best video explaining Indian values.
Although I don't agree with some of his points about impact of foreign civilizations on India.
https://youtu.be/tHR1wNH7z6k?si=k0-slrK5rdndJ0_X

[chetak]

Good points Chetak saar. Biden has bucked his own Deep State and views India favorably. The Eurotards are right on cue and follow the US lead. China has threatened to deep six both German automobiles and US automobiles on the import front. Don't know how well that can be pulled of, considering the aam admi in china is enamoured with Audi (their administrators choice car), VW, Merc Benz & Porche. There is a good following for the Buicks of America. I believe Biden wants India to take the mantle (away from China), considering the GDP rise, CY-3, etc. The Euros are mighty pleased with transit via Greece avoiding Turkey/Iraq. MBS has been ushering reforms in SA (many wonder whether he is anti Islamic) which the mullahs don't like. There is a frosty relationship with the US, however MBS does realize that the main defenders of SA happen to be western defence maal. For India/Bharat this IMEC is turning out to be a sweet deal (a huge dagger in Emperor Eleven). MBS has more faith in India to make things happen (infra play will be executed by India). The Euros have wanted something new, they are tired of the Chinese invading their cities (tourist traffic out of China targets Euro cities). Many Euros are taking notice of the Digital public infra play touted by India and they want the convenience of UPI (pay by phone directly from bank account without incurring a 3% charge by America's Visa/AmEx, etc.). India is already their back office IT.

bala saar,

there were some inconsistencies during the G20 negotiations and behind the scenes keenness to bring about the favorable declaration that was finally showcased

The state dept may have been told to keep off (or drastically reduce, both its visibility, and micromanagement) and some others who seem to have taken instructions directly from the WH may have been foregrounded and they seem to have led the discussions with pre prepared script to hammer out a consensus, no matter what.

the EU, as a block is normally hostile to India, with exceptions like macron and but not the french media, they are not happy with India's increasing power plays on the global stage. The amrikis have gotten to them. and quietened them all

unlike the (previous) mafia regime, Modi has given back to the EU, in the same coin and that has upset some FTA related apple carts

The african union inclusion was unexpected, mainly due to the speed with which the matters crystallized, given the major disagreements that currently exist between the majority of the african states and their erstwhile colonial european masters.

This un opposed consensus is unnatural and geopolitically degrading to the EU.

Xi's absence may have been to ensure that he was not present when the cheen made such large concessions, including the one on the India Middle East Europe Economic Corridor (IMEC), which is in direct opposition to cheen's own OBOR interests which are military, as well as, geopolitical. What exactly did he gain (or not lose)

Putin gained simply by staying away as he had others to run interference for him and look out for his interests. A small payment by India for all the help russia has given to us, over the years, especially at the UNSC.

There seems to be a sudden clarity (with a limited horizon) in the thinking of the amriki deep state which has stoically realized (or resignedly accepted) that India is crucial to amriki interests, not only in this region, but also to counter cheen on a much wider front, both economically and geostrategically.

Did anyone notice that the amriki attack dogs like WAPO, NYT, wokerati academia, and habitual $hit shovelers like obummer et al have suddenly become quieter.

They amriki leftists (and the Antony Blinken's state dept) seem to have outsourced their anti India, anti Modi narrative building agenda to the frogs and the britshits, which is why the main thrust against Modi (and the Hindus) is currently coming from the EU and britshits......and "clown plince" pappu, the cheeni puppet is coincidentally touring those very lands, and drumming up "support" for his commie, naxal game plan

The amrikis (WH) have perhaps realized that, in all likelihood, Modi is coming back in 2024. Betting on "clown plince" pappu, the cheeni puppet, is like backing the wrong horse, especially when that horse may already be cheeni owned/amenable to cheeni control.....

Modi and Jaishankar have played their geopolitical, geo-economic, and geostrategic cards brilliantly, while seamlessly coordinating conception and execution on vitally important multinational fora

[chetak]

Chetak long discussions helped the idea of Neo Petra route. Some stalwarts burnt midnight oil to get buyin of all stakeholders.

Note Erdogan.vehmently opposing the IMEC Corridor.


BTW the Age of Discovery or Exploration.started when Ottoman Turks and Mameluke Arabs prevented trade routes to India and further east.

Agreement on IMEC means finally that bottleneck for commerce and trade has been cleared.

And as usual Neo Ottoman Erdogan is objecting and demanding hafta.

This time around Europe needs IMEC and US is supporting to bring peace and stability to West Asia which hasn't happened since TE. Lawrence set fire to Aqaba.
So Erdogan will get regime change if he objects too much.

sirji,

this level of buy-ins from these stakeholders is very difficult to align, as many interests diverge in diametrically opposite directions...and yet it happened.

there is no doubt that much midnight oil was burned but the question is how and why did the cheen sign on the dotted line when their own OBOR is at stake

whose thumb was on the scale, do you think.... and what quid pro quo.....

BTW, the India Middle East Europe Economic Corridor (IMEC) will sooner, rather than later, have a security component with regional military involvement for "asset" protection and also, to keep the SLOCs safe and in all likelihood, the QUAD will broaden its scope, along with increased membership

That will again get the cheen's goat, a double tragedy for them

erdogan is in a funk about the Piraeus port in greece and the enormous loss of income for turki. Not much that he can do, given the poor cards that he is holding and the heavyweights sitting across from him, at the same card table

BTW, pliss to note, the Piraeus Port Authority (PPA) is majority owned by China COSCO Shipping (the successor of China Ocean Shipping (Group) Company (COSCO)), the 3rd largest container ship company in the world.

As of 2021 the total capacity is 8.3m TEUs. The cargo terminal has a storage area of 180,000 m2 and an annual traffic capacity of 25,000,000 tonnes. It has a busy cruise ship traffic. All in all, it's not such a big port

Tell me saar, was consensus "built", or was it tailored like a fine bespoke suit.

some of the stake holders, knives drawn, are at each other's throats...and the complex mix of geo-politics, geo-strategy, and geo-economics is mindboggling, in scale, as well as, in contradictions.

Again, whose thumb was on the scale.....need help to figure out this puzzle

[chetak]

Bala It might happen China will use Mundra port as transhipment point in future.

Never say never.

saar,

It's not just mundra port as a transshipment point, they want access to the whole Indian port system.....

the cheen were then, and even now are desperately keen to get their hands on all the Indian ports, the port related road networks, and the rail infrastructure for cargo, with multiple access routes and options to segregate ports for oil, gas, bulk cargo, container, etc and military facilities for the PLAN assets.

Access to India will de-risk their OBOR venture and they will eventually establish a stranglehold on the Indian polity to negate the malacca straits threat that has always been a historic fear for them

the single and vital port of gwadar is a high risk, single point of failure critical system that can be shut down without too much difficulty

one is very much concerned that the congi cheen MOU is mainly centered around this agenda, apart from priority access to Indian markets on an exclusive basis. For the cheens, such agreements invariably presuppose very handsome remuneration

the approach to gwadar port is through perennially hostile topography (terrorism prone and geographically extreme terrain, with environmentally extreme temperature conditions, earthquake prone rail and road networks with multiple tunnels and unpredictable rock slides that run alongside oil and gas pipelines. The oil pipelines have to be very expensively heated 24x7x365 to keep the oil in fluid consistency, that is enough to pump easily to keep flowing smoothly).......

[ramana]

India's ancient trade route more important than Silk Road ever was': William Dalrymple hails India-Middle East-Europe Economic Corridor
Business Today Sep 14, 2023
https://www.businesstoday.in/latest/eco ... 2023-09-14

Dalrymple, whose new book 'The Golden Road' will be released in 2024, said the Silk Road was coined in the 19th century by German geographer Ferdinand von Richthofen and it only came into the English language in the 1930s and really became popular in the last 20-25 years.
Eminent historian William Dalrymple explains new India-Middle East-Europe Economic Corridor (IMEEC)
SUMMARY
• William Dalrymple hailed the new economic corridor saying this was the major route used for East and West trade for thousands of years
• The historian also says that China's Silk Road is a very modern idea that was coined in the 1930s and became popular in the last 20-25 years
• He says India has landed on a very ancient trade route that was more important during the classical period than the Silk Road ever was
The launch of the new India-Middle East-Europe Economic Corridor (IMEEC) connecting India with the Gulf and Europe has sparked a debate about whether it could counter the Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) - a highly ambitious infrastructure project launched by Chinese President Xi Jinping to connect China with major Eurasian economies through infra, trade, and investment. The new corridor is billed as an alternative to BRI, which Xi projects as Beijing's move to revive China's ancient trade route network referred to as the Silk Road.
The IMEEC, ever since its launch on the sidelines of the G20 Summit, has been seen as a new route but William Dalrymple, the eminent historian and author, is of the view that this, in fact, was the major route used for East and West trade through the Red Sea for thousands of years. The historian also says that the Silk Road is a very modern idea that was coined in the 1930s.
"When people think of trade between Europe and Asia, the first thing that comes to mind is - Silk Road. That (Silk Road) is a concept of a novel route - a very romantic idea of a camel caravan laden with silk and spices crossing the Pamirs, and the traditional conception of this is something that links China with the Roman world in the Mediterranean. But Silk Road is a very modern idea," said Dalrymple while speaking to India Today's News Director Rahul Kanwal.
Dalrymple, whose new book 'The Golden Road' will be released in 2024, said the Silk Road was coined in the 19th century by German geographer Ferdinand von Richthofen and it only came into the English language in the 1930s and really became popular in the last 20-25 years.
The historian said that the Silk Road has been 'militarised' by Xi Jinping. "But if you look at the classical period in the time of the Romans, the big East-West trade had nothing to do with China at all, it was with India. It happened not over the land, but over the Red Sea. This was a major world economic route," he said, adding that there are records to back this up.
Dalrymple said that records were available of Roman geographer and economist Pliny complaining that all the gold in the Roman world was bucketing out towards India as Indians were exporting a lot. According to the historian, Pliny once said that Roman women wanted to wear silk from India, gems to cover their breasts, and other exotic goods - "Why can't they be just happy with Roman wool?"
Pliny also stated that 250 Roman cargo vessels alone were leaving from just one port in a year and sailing to India, the historian said while referring to the magnitude of the trade. Ships were operating to Bharuch in Gujarat and Muziris near Cochin in Kerala.
Balance of trade in ancient times favoured India
Dalrymple said that what is clear is that the Indians were making money through trade with Europe. He said Indians did not want to buy much from Rome - they were interested in Roman wine, they liked Roman olive oil, and they also liked a sauce called Garum, which was a very popular fish sauce. In return, Romans wanted very expensive things like ivory, spices, and gemstones. "So the balance of trade overwhelmingly was in favour of India and that is why you find tens of thousands of Roman coins. In fact, more Roman coins have been found in India than in any other country except Italy."
Why was this ancient route not known?
When asked why this major route was not as popular as the Silk Road, Dalrymple listed three major reasons - not much work on hard data, no popularisation of Indian scholarly writings, and the emergence of new evidence from Egypt. He said this idea of the Silk Road was such romantic and exciting that it had taken over everyone's consciousness in the last 20 years. "We have forgotten to look at hard data which is there very clearly in the Roman documents and archeology which is dug up."
New evidence of ancient trade found in Egypt
Dalrymple said that new evidence has emerged after excavations in the last 10 years at Muziris in Kerala, at the old site Arikamedu outside Pondicherry. He said there was a major excavation at Berenike, a major ancient seaport of Egypt. During the excavation, the historian said, the archeologist found not only a wonderful Buddha head - the first ever found in Egypt and made locally in Alexandria - but also a very early triad of Hindu gods of the early forms of Krishna and Balaram.
Muziris Papyrus: The ancient trade invoice
"The most exciting simple piece of evidence is Muziris Papyrus. It's a piece of historical document. Papyrus was dug up in Egypt. It is now kept in a museum in Vienna. And when they studied it, it was a shipping invoice," the author said, adding that this was a contract made by a ship owner in Alexandria for a supplier in Kerala. He said this is a very modern document as it has the contents of containers, the details about insurance, and legal things like what happens if the ship sinks. "And this document involves vast sums of money."
Dalrymple said that the Egyptians had done some revenue calculations based on details on Muziris Papyrus. The Roman customs used to take one-third of the import value of goods coming from India. The trade volume was so huge that the customs revenue would have alone paid for one-third of the Roman Imperial Budget, he said.
"India whether knowingly or unknowingly has landed on a very ancient trade route that in fact probably was more important during the classical period than the Silk Road ever was," Dalrymple said. "This is solid historical stuff, this is happening particularly between the first and second century BCE to about 11th-12th century CE. So about a thousand years, India has been exporting its ideas and its science in a very real and tangible way."
India-Middle East Economic Corridor
The IMEC comprises two separate corridors, the east corridor will connect India to the Gulf and the northern corridor will connect the Gulf to Europe. It will include a railway that will provide a cross-border ship-to-rail transit network to supplement existing maritime and road transport routes. The corridor, whose estimated cost is $20 billion, will enable India, the UAE, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Israel, and Europe to trade with each other and with other partner countries.

Roman coins were found in and around Machilipatnam/Krishna district area. Obviously, people on the east coast were also trading with ancient Roman empire. It makes a lot of sense since Machilipatnam (earlier it used to be called Masulipatnam) was the largest and most prominent port in the southern peninsula. It was mostly from this port much of India's interactions with Southeast Asia spanning a wide spectrum areas- religion (Hinduism and Buddhism), art and architecture (the famous Amaravati School of Art), classical dances and puppet shows based on Indian epics, law and governance (a lot was adopted from the Manusmriti), language (prominently Bahasa Indonesia, Bahasa Malaya, Thai, Cambodian) and so on took place. As Darlymple rightly points out, rather very unfortunately no systematic research has ever been carried out or encouraged on India's links both with the East and the West in ancient times. It is about time our historians revisited the history of the Indian Ocean and how it was virtually the world's centre of gravity for nearly two millennia with India at the heart of it before the European colonialists completely snapped the earlier vibrant relations and imposed a new order that exclusively served their interests.

[hgupta]

No research was done because the Britshits actively discouraged such research for fear that there was a country before the British that actually unified India and not only that but showed a thriving civilization at a time when the Britshits were living in squalor conditions.

[ramana]

The point is not that research was not done, in reality, a lot was done. I have posted many books in the Books FOlder on Ancient Rome and Indian trade. The point is this route was the older and more lucrative trade route.
I have been reading many books on ancient Rome, and India, and the volume of trade was huge. This trade route continued till the pre-modern era. The Age of Discovery or Exploration began when the Ottomans of Turkey and Mamelukes of Egypt and the Levant blocked the trade route. This led to Portugal and Spain trying to sail the seas to find the sea route. They were followed by the establishment of the Europeans like Dutch, French, and English. This sea route impoverished the earlier land routes countries until oil was discovered. As oil usage reduces the need for revival of IMEC comes.
And we celebrate the IMEC which revives the ancient India to Europe Route.
Have to credit Modiji for the sustained negotiations to get this going in the past few years.

[bala]

The ancient India trade routes were well established and majority of the ships plying the oceans were made in India. India's spices and goods like textiles were in high demand throughout the civilized world. The traders of Indic origin settled in various ports along the trade route. Indic science, religious thought, ayurvedic medicine, jewellery (remember diamonds were mined exclusively in India during ancient times), artisans, were freely imbibed into trading nations like Rome, Greece. The Etruscan of Rome were actually Indic trader people who co-mingled with the natives. Prior to 325AD, all Romans practiced some form of Hindu beliefs, the Vatican is an old vatika, place of worship (there are shiv lingams in the vaults of the Vatican). People in Greece came to India for education. So did other nations since India was the world University during ancient times. Dalrymple is simply pointing out the above facts.

India had accurate navigation (Sanskrit navigath) based on stars (nakshatra). Ship building was advanced and very sea worthy.

[SivaR]

Not just trading, India provided security for the shipping lanes all through Indian ocean to Malacca Straits. Chola Kingdom is one of the truly global kingdom in India. They were controlling the whole of southern peninsula's trading routes, Ports of Musiri, Thondi, Puhar and Trincomalee(Worlds largest natural deep sea port, till Sidney(Australia) came into picture) were under their control. Even though Musiri was under Chera king's, they were suzerain to Chola empire during that time. The customs and trade revenue from these ships were far higher than their domestic revenue, that was a truly golden period for India. During their initial days, the ships needs to take two stops to go to China and far-east from West, hence its mandatory for all the ships to make a stop in their territory and in Malacca straits of Sumatra (Indonesia). Later when the ship technology developed, the ships has a choice of stopping either in India or in Sumatra. The then Sumatran King of Srivijaya involved in unscrupulous trade practice of blocking the Malacca strait and forcing the ships to stop in Sumatra. This angered the chola kings and they conducted a brilliant Military campaign of sailing their navy 2000 miles away and captured Sumatra and continued their supremacy. In terms of military campaign, that was un paralleled. Current EAM and their family originated from this area and every one in this area know this history. The Chola's were trading right from Alexandria (Rome) in the west to China/Korean Peninsula in the east, almost entire known civilizations of that time.

[williams]

No research was done because the Britshits actively discouraged such research for fear that there was a country before the British that actually unified India and not only that but showed a thriving civilization at a time when the Britshits were living in squalor conditions.

There is enough research material available post-independence. But the modern British extension, aka Congress party, sat on it doing nothing and trying to sweet talk with the Pakis and the Chinese. The current govt has woken up is all I can say. The more we enable these trade links circumscribing the so-called BRI, the more India will be transformed into Bharath!

BTW did anyone post this: https://ebook.g20.org/ebook/bharatmod/index.html?

This is Modi's definition of Bharath!

[Cyrano]

Yes, in G20 thread

[bala]

The ebook from GOI repeats the blunder of dates for Buddha and Jainism. Jainism 1st Thirtankara dates back to around 8000 BC or earlier. Buddha according to the Puranas provide a chronology of Magadha rulers and it was during the reign of Bimbisara, the fifth Shishunag ruler (1852-1814 B.C.), when Prince Siddhartha became the enlightened Buddha. Then it was during the reign of King Ajatashatru (1814-1787 B.C.) when Buddha left this world. See https://www.stephen-knapp.com/were_ther ... uddhas.htm for details. These actual dates for Buddha have been cross verified by Buddhist text kept in Tibet and Myanmar. Most of us are taught that Buddha was born around 560 to 550 B.C.

[ramana]

Again, whose thumb was on the scale.....need help to figure out this puzzle

Laoxian

[ramana]

SivaR, Its a thousand years before the Cholas that Roman trade started.

[Cyrano]

On this topic, I'm currently reading "India and Faraway Lands" - 5000 years of connected history by Ashutosh Mehndiratta. A highly educative and enjoyable read. Highly recommended, avl on amazon, my bro got it for me from mumbai airport book store recently. Suitable for all ages, simple and factual, easy read.

India's cultural, artistic, philosophical, scientific and technological influence and gifts to the world across the millennia have been immeasurable, no other civilisation despite their own achievements comes remotely close. Uncertainty on a few dates here and there across such a vast timeline is not going to change this fact.

[bala]

National database of Registered Births and Death. Starting from October 1, 2023, all births in India will be maintained in a central database, removing the scope for duplicate registrations. Similarly all deaths also will be maintained centrally, paving way for efficient management of trusts/ wills etc. Parents aadhar number will be provided.

[ramana]

https://x.com/ramana_brf/status/1703203 ... 48554?s=20

[ramana]

Maps are a powerful way of looking at things.

[sanman]

National database of Registered Births and Death. Starting from October 1, 2023, all births in India will be maintained in a central database, removing the scope for duplicate registrations. Similarly all deaths also will be maintained centrally, paving way for efficient management of trusts/ wills etc. Parents aadhar number will be provided.

What if an anti-national party comes to power? (not naming any names, but...)

Wouldn't they then have the power to tamper/alter this centralized database repository with frightening ease?

Shouldn't we try a Blockchain approach of distributed ledger?
We need a system robust enough to withstand control by ill-intentioned anti-nationals.

[bala]

What if an anti-national party comes to power? (not naming any names, but...)

Wouldn't they then have the power to tamper/alter this centralized database repository with frightening ease?

Shouldn't we try a Blockchain approach of distributed ledger?
We need a system robust enough to withstand control by ill-intentioned anti-nationals.

These issues are on security. Specific tech like Blockchain etc can/will be used. When AADHAR started they used big data processing like HBase (which is a highly distributed database). There are notions like read copies / write datasets. Also multiple copies (3 copies are the norm in Hadoop processing) are available on a distributed network. Strong audit capabilities can weed out pernicious/willful tampering. India techies are well versed in such fields. Security/Cyber Security is an entire field of computer science and I am sure GOI has recruited enough people in this area. UPI system is working in the field and so far there hasn't been any tampering.

[Cyrano]

Same should be done for all property registrations and link to Aadhar

[ricky_v]

dont know whether this is the right thread, a sansad tv special on the old parliament building, very educational re: motifs and iconography



the choice of music is interesting, but i suppose, thematically it fits in well with the subject

[chetak]

None of the backers of this IMEC corridor project are particularly enamored of erdogan, or his pretentious and petty power plays, and no reason for any of them to accommodate his requirements. He really doesn't have much of anything to bring to the table, except his outsized ego and his never satisfied sense of entitlement and the desperation to freeload by trying to clamber on to a project where he has no place in the scheme of things.

Moreover, with the primary movers of the project being who they are, his ability to create mischief is very limited, especially given the kind of retribution that, (and the swiftness with which the consequential repercussions that would invariably follow), will descend on turkey

Erdoğan said after the G20 that “there can be no corridor without turkey”, adding “the most appropriate route for trade from east to west must pass through turkey”

Turkey’s foreign minister hakan fidan, has further underscored this skepticism, stating this week that “experts have raised doubts about whether the primary objective of the India-Middle East corridor was rationality and efficiency,” suggesting that there may be “more geostrategic considerations” in play.

One of the main objectives of the project is to cut shipping times by 40 per cent and save money on other costs, and fuel use.

[chetak]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj5sYXYeEOU


Global Left undermining India: How Justin Trudeau's wokeism makes him take insane decisions

1,704 views Streamed live 2 hours ago 'Reality Bytes' Interviews with Nupur J Sharma

Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has recently accused India of killing a Khalistani terrorist, Hardeep Nijjar, on Canadian soil. Trudeau provided no proof for his allegations and created a diplomatic storm that has only worsened the ties between the two nations. What makes Justin Trudeau indulge in such shenanigans? Why has he been pandering to Khalistani terrorists? Has his Woke politics got something to do with it?

Nupur J Sharma, the Editor-in-Chief of OpIndia, chats with Daniel Bordman about the global Left undermining India. Bordman is a Senior correspondent for The National Telegraph.

[ricky_v]

nia list for gangster networks, posting list in full as many members are outside india, good to put faces to names, lawrence bishnoi for one has been a much-heard name, #33 got punted today.

[sajo]

^^ No. 33 Sukhdool Singh has been disposed off today right ?
Are all of the photos In Kanneda ? Most photos seem to have been taken in custody, not sure if they have been released after being arrested in India. If so, how come they managed to get passports issued ? Wait, dont want to know.