Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 13 Jun 2018 12:39

Srin - coded language - the OEM splav rockets did not work as advertised ... and we worked with them to fix the mess - again :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Rakesh » 14 Jun 2018 05:03

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 1903423488 ---> Indian Air Force SPYDER Surface-to-Air Missile Missile System firing a Python-5 missile from a TATA LPTA 2038 during a test trial.

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 14 Jun 2018 10:36

I think this is old news. AFAIK this proposal went nowhere.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby mody » 14 Jun 2018 13:12

Singha wrote:Srin - coded language - the OEM splav rockets did not work as advertised ... and we worked with them to fix the mess - again :mrgreen:


All multi-barrel rocket systems in IA inventory are with unguided rockets. Smerch, Pinaka and BM-21 Grad.

Now we are developing Pinaka MK-2, with guidance.
MK-2 has two elements.
1). Adding guidance package
2). Increasing the range to 60 Kms+.

Now it seems we are doing the same for Smerch as well. We are developing guided Smerch rockets.
We could have developed our own 300 mm rocket system. However, it seems that we are going to use the russian launcher and developing guided rockets for the same.
Couple of pages back there was a news item of Ashok Leyland having developed a truck for the Smerch rocket system. While reading the news also, I wondered as to why new trucks were required. We have purchased only 36 Smerch systems and all of them have surely come mounted on trucks. Why develop trucks, when only 36 systems are in the inventory.

Now, with this news of India developing guided smerch rockets, expect to see a lot more Smerch systems being procured from Russia. However, this time only the launchers will be bought. The truck will be Indian. About the rockets, not sure if we will manufacture the complete rockets, or the basic rockets will still come from Russia and we will add guidance system to the rockets. if we manufacture the complete rockets, that would be great.
The interesting bit is about being able to change the target of the rocket. This means apart from guidance, they will also have a data link, to get midcourse course correction. Not sure if there are any ballistic rocket systems anywhere that have this kind of feature.
I guess the range will also be increased from the current 90 Km to about 120 Kms+.

By the way, how did we manage to increase the range of Pinaka rockets from 40 Kms for MK-1 to 60 Kms or even slightly higher for MK2? The size of the rockets have remained the same. The propellent has been changed to NEPE based propellent and maybe the rockets are now all composite. Are these two changes enough to increase the raneg by 50%? If yes then it can give some idea about what to expect from the upcoming Agni-1P, which is also supposed to get at least these two changes.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 14 Jun 2018 14:07

I hope we can procure more BM-21 Launchers, manufacture rockets in India , mount in on Indian trucks. These will be for volume fire in the 5-34Km range, while Pinaka and Smerch are for targets deeper in enemy territory. I think BM 21 is aldready mounted on Ashok Leyland trucks and rockets are manufactured locally.

We need volumes in our rocket artillery to add to tube artillery.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Kersi » 14 Jun 2018 14:41

Aditya_V wrote:I hope we can procure more BM-21 Launchers, manufacture rockets in India , mount in on Indian trucks. These will be for volume fire in the 5-34Km range, while Pinaka and Smerch are for targets deeper in enemy territory. I think BM 21 is aldready mounted on Ashok Leyland trucks and rockets are manufactured locally.

We need volumes in our rocket artillery to add to tube artillery.


Since we have Pinaka why buy BM 21 launchers ? Phase our Grad and replace with Pinaka.

Does Rodina still make BM 21 ?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 14 Jun 2018 14:49

BM 21 rockets are much more cheaper and lighter to produce, they bring volume of fire. Pinaka is comparatively more expensive. I think L&T makes the rockets/Launchers and Ashok Leyland the trucks. We need all 3 plus Prahaar.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby mody » 14 Jun 2018 14:56

Aditya_V wrote:I hope we can procure more BM-21 Launchers, manufacture rockets in India , mount in on Indian trucks. These will be for volume fire in the 5-34Km range, while Pinaka and Smerch are for targets deeper in enemy territory. I think BM 21 is aldready mounted on Ashok Leyland trucks and rockets are manufactured locally.

We need volumes in our rocket artillery to add to tube artillery.


BM-21 are a area weapon, with low accuracy and small warhead. The move is towards better accuracy.
The volume fire can be provided by tube artillery in the 5 to 34 kms range. BM-21 has a range of only about 25 Kms, with Indian rockets.
Tube artillery is much better at proving volume fire at longer ranges, with almost the same warhead/explosive size as BM-21.

BM-21 is obsolete and I don't anymore will ever be procured. Pinaka will go ahead.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby JayS » 14 Jun 2018 15:31

Indranil wrote:I think this is old news. AFAIK this proposal went nowhere.

Wasn't this for QRSAM..? But since DRDO is developing one they gave up on the import..?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 14 Jun 2018 19:39

Actually, I was wrong. India has acquired and deployed the SPYDER system and recently started deploying the same along the borders.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Austin » 14 Jun 2018 21:15

IF I am not wrong Spyder has both Python-5 and Derby system , Hopefylly we can have Astra in similar configuration for SHORAD role

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 14 Jun 2018 21:48

Indranil wrote:Actually, I was wrong. India has acquired and deployed the SPYDER system and recently started deploying the same along the borders.


3 Squadrons worth.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby JayS » 14 Jun 2018 22:17

Austin wrote:IF I am not wrong Spyder has both Python-5 and Derby system , Hopefylly we can have Astra in similar configuration for SHORAD role


SPYDER name ks derivative of PYthon and DERby.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Prasad » 14 Jun 2018 23:32

This was from L&T Defence at DefExpo. M/QRSAM Launches among other things.
https://vimeo.com/275115141

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby sum » 15 Jun 2018 09:54

From PS blog:
It makes no sense to deploy A-5 ICBM with a single/unitary warhead. Hence, A-5’s operational deployment will take place ONLY AFTER the MIRVs have been flight-tested at least twice. And the tracking vessel will be ready for the high seas by the year’s end. And BTW, A-4 IRBM with 2 MIRVs has already been tested, although not officially acknowledged. So the basic MIRV’s engineering & ballistic fundamentals have already been proven. On the A-5 the MIRVs will be greater & therefore require accurate multi-target tracking out to great distances.

TIFWIW

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Austin » 15 Jun 2018 10:26

JayS wrote:
Austin wrote:IF I am not wrong Spyder has both Python-5 and Derby system , Hopefylly we can have Astra in similar configuration for SHORAD role


SPYDER name ks derivative of PYthon and DERby.


Good catch , drdo should buid it’s own spyder derivative via Astra , the latter has longer legs then derby

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Pratyush » 15 Jun 2018 10:40

JayS wrote:
Austin wrote:IF I am not wrong Spyder has both Python-5 and Derby system , Hopefylly we can have Astra in similar configuration for SHORAD role


SPYDER name ks derivative of PYthon and DERby.



S is for surface.

PY is for python.

DER is for derby.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Austin » 15 Jun 2018 10:55

AFAIK , The Smerch are manufactured in India under JV between OFB and Splav , 4or 5 types for Smerch rocket are made and this JV was done during UPA era this is from memory the platform though it carries is India TATA truck iirc

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Austin » 15 Jun 2018 10:56

Pratyush wrote:
JayS wrote:
SPYDER name ks derivative of PYthon and DERby.



S is for surface.

PY is for python.

DER is for derby.


Earlier they did similar SHORAD for AMRAAM and Mica missile too

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Pratyush » 15 Jun 2018 11:00

Correct.

So the Astra SAM conversion is perfectly sensible.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 15 Jun 2018 20:07

That Blog about A4 seems gas.
Any MIRV needs a nose fairing. We have not seen any pictures released of that. And two MIRVs needs a RV bus.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramdas » 16 Jun 2018 05:30

@ramana: Not all A4 tests came with picture releases. Also, Lt. Gen. V. K. Saxena wrote in his article about the Agni series that the purpose of developing A4 after A3 was MIRV tech. It sounded like total nonsense when Iread it that time. Now I am not so sure...Ultimately, we can at best speculate.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby John » 16 Jun 2018 06:05

Pratyush wrote:Correct.

So the Astra SAM conversion is perfectly sensible.

If QR SAM didn't exist I would say so but existence of later with some of same components and similar range makes such a SAM redundant.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 16 Jun 2018 06:22

My next maya dreams are

Big ogival nose for a5
Video of k4 with snub bose deploying aeroplate and aerospike
Composite first stage for both
Asktra mk1 fleetwide
Astra mk2
Ad2 thaadski
Uttam foc into tejas mk1a
Tejas mk2 td
Night video of mirv reentry and impact into southern ocean

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby RoyG » 16 Jun 2018 07:52

ramdas wrote:@ramana: Not all A4 tests came with picture releases. Also, Lt. Gen. V. K. Saxena wrote in his article about the Agni series that the purpose of developing A4 after A3 was MIRV tech. It sounded like total nonsense when Iread it that time. Now I am not so sure...Ultimately, we can at best speculate.


Uh what? Agni III has a monster 2.5 ton throw weight with an adequate end stage diameter to house the MIRV bus. With A-V/VI, Agni III/IV will be phased out overtime.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Pratyush » 16 Jun 2018 09:43

John wrote:
Pratyush wrote:Correct.

So the Astra SAM conversion is perfectly sensible.

If QR SAM didn't exist I would say so but existence of later with some of same components and similar range makes such a SAM redundant.



You are correct. I will take the QR SAM that is standing on the shoulders of Akash and Astra any day.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 16 Jun 2018 09:55

Agni IV is a technology feeder and may disappear over time. Agni 1 and Agni 3 will morph into much lighter Agni 1P and Agni 3P. These missiles will have all composite stages, electromechanical actuators and pinpoint accuracy with light weight navigation.

If you are trying to hit somewhere nearby, you don’t use an ICBM. Not only are they more difficult to move and hide than their smaller and lighter missiles counterparts, they provide significantly higher reaction time to enemy missile defense systems.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Gyan » 16 Jun 2018 10:03

It seems

Astra is 160kg, Astra Ramjet 250kg
QRSAM might be 200-250kg
Akash NG around 350-400kg range

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 16 Jun 2018 10:07

John wrote:
Pratyush wrote:Correct.

So the Astra SAM conversion is perfectly sensible.

If QR SAM didn't exist I would say so but existence of later with some of same components and similar range makes such a SAM redundant.

Also, QRSAM has been designed ground up as a SAM. For example, the sizing and propellant of the booster and its motor are all custom build for extremely fast acceleration after ground launch. This is not case with an AAM adapted for ground launch. Hence QRSAM is a qualitatively better SAM.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 16 Jun 2018 10:08

Gyan wrote:It seems

Astra is 160kg, Astra Ramjet 250kg
QRSAM might be 200-250kg
Akash NG around 350-400kg range

Where is the SFDR weight coming from?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karthik S » 16 Jun 2018 10:27

Singha wrote:My next maya dreams are

Big ogival nose for a5
Video of k4 with snub bose deploying aeroplate and aerospike
Composite first stage for both
Asktra mk1 fleetwide
Astra mk2
Ad2 thaadski
Uttam foc into tejas mk1a
Tejas mk2 td
Night video of mirv reentry and impact into southern ocean


No diwali dream is exciting without a good 10000 wala.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby chetak » 16 Jun 2018 11:23

twitter

85% of Asia, Half of Europe and 40% of Africa now within the range of India's latest nuclear warhead capable ICBM #Agni5 .
And see how things will expand over the next 10 years.


Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 16 Jun 2018 11:37

composite 1st stage motor apart from making the missile lighter by a couple of tons, will boost the 1st stage speed ...

but I think with the P2 prancing about, its time for india to resume N-tests and come up with some proven TN bomb designs - a variable yield counterforce warhead of 150kt-450kt would be best, if not then 2 separate devices and a heavier 750kg countervalue warhead of 750kt-1MT.

maybe 10 tests will be needed for repeatability and data gathering over a period of 1 year.

we need to do it and we should do it.

in parallel, let MIRV tests go on with existing warheads and dummies of future warheads.

50 A5 with mirv counterforce & unitary countervalue mix
50 A6 with mirv countervalue and range to cover entire CONUS and EU
4 SSBN each with 12 SLBMs as a survivable 2nd strike option from IOR mainly against Cheen.
50 A1P with 10-25kt warhead should Cheen/Pak decide to "start small" and "dare" us to retaliate by hitting a military target like a large cantonment or staging area with a tactical nuke.

we need options at EACH step of the escalation ladder for stable deterrence.

brahmos++ and nirbhay++ should be declared and used only as non-nuclear weapons to radiate clarity. no air launched nuclear weapons except a few gravity bombs in the basement for dire emergency.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 16 Jun 2018 11:47

Tenth DF-41 launch shows Beijing's most lethal nuclear missile nears deployment
BY: Bill Gertz
June 5, 2018 5:00 am

China moved closer to deploying its newest and most lethal strategic weapon by conducting the 10th flight test of the DF-41 intercontinental-range missile last week.

Defense officials said the flight test of the multi-warhead DF-41 took place May 27 at the Taiyuan Space Launch Center in northern China and flew overland several thousand miles to an impact zone in the western Gobi Desert.

"We are aware of recent flight tests and we continue to monitor weapons development in China but we cannot provide information on specific tests," Pentagon spokesman Marine Corps Lt. Col. Christopher Logan told the Washington Free Beacon.

The flight test comes amid growing tensions between the United States and China over Beijing's militarization of islands in the South China Sea and a looming trade war over the Trump administration's aggressive posture toward unfair Chinese trade practices.

The flight test last week was the 10th known launch of the DF-41 that will be armed with up to 10 multiple, independently targetable reentry vehicles or MIRV warheads.

The intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) system will be deployed on a road-mobile ICBM capable of targeting all of the United States. The mobility and ability to hide the weapon from intelligence detection poses serious challenges for U.S. strategic nuclear deterrence.

China's state media have said the DF-41 will be capable of being armed with up to 10 warheads each with a yield of 150 kilotons, or single, massive, 5.5 megaton warhead. A kiloton is the equivalent of 1,000 tons of TNT; a megaton is equal to 1 million tons.

The addition of multiple warheads to all of China's ICBMs represents a substantial increase in the number of warheads in the arsenal capable of ranging all of the United States.

China made no mention of the latest flight test in state controlled media.

However, Chinese authorities announced in an international notice to airmen the closure of airspace on May 27 along a flight path used past DF-41 tests, according to Henri Kenhmann, who runs the East Pendulum blog that monitors Chinese military developments.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Haridas » 16 Jun 2018 12:19

ramana wrote:That Blog about A4 seems gas.
Any MIRV needs a nose fairing. We have not seen any pictures released of that. And two MIRVs needs a RV bus.

A4 MIRV gas can only come for empty headed fotochor like Prasun Sengupta. Some may remember PS plagerized my AeroIndia photo of Dhruv and put it on cover page of Force. Editor Gazala Wahab moomin was pure as islam, when caught stealing, silence of helplessness. Sorry just venting anger at the photo-chor PS.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Austin » 16 Jun 2018 13:55

Building-block air defence [ES18D3]

IAI has launched a modular air defence system that draws on its experience with the Barak missile family. Known as Barak-MX, the new system takes a modular and scalable approach, linking sensors, launchers and effectors into a system that can be tailored and sized to meet air defence needs. While IAI can provide all of the necessary elements from the company’s portfolio, the Barak-MX can work with radar and effector types from other sources, and which may already exist within a country’s inventory.

At the heart of Barak-MX is a central command and control battle management centre that has advanced systems that match shooter to threat. To this central core can be added a range of air defence sensors and effectors to scale up the system. This allows an air defence network to be built up in blocks, expanding as needs arise and budgets allow. The system is equally applicable to land- and sea-based systems, and can integrate the two into one network.

In terms of effectors, IAI offers three missiles based on the Barak 8: the Barak MRAD with a single-pulse engine giving a range of up to 35km, dual-pulse Barak LRAD for engagements of up to 70km, and Barak ER. Development of the dual-pulse 150km Barak ER weapon is currently under way. The weapon has an additional booster motor that increases its length, and also that of the required launcher. Further tests are planned for the remainder of the year, and IAI suggests it could be ready for production in about a year.


Although these vertical-launch interceptors – or their equivalents – cover the core of the Barak-MX requirement, functions at either end of the engagement scale could be integrated, such as very short range/C-RAM systems at the lower end, and a BMD (ballistic missile defence) capability at the upper end.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby arun » 16 Jun 2018 14:58

Haridas wrote:
ramana wrote:That Blog about A4 seems gas.
Any MIRV needs a nose fairing. We have not seen any pictures released of that. And two MIRVs needs a RV bus.

A4 MIRV gas can only come for empty headed fotochor like Prasun Sengupta. Some may remember PS plagerized my AeroIndia photo of Dhruv and put it on cover page of Force. Editor Gazala Wahab moomin was pure as islam, when caught stealing, silence of helplessness. Sorry just venting anger at the photo-chor PS.


One thing though, a demonstration of an MIRV capability by India is long overdue. Doubly so given that the Mohammadden Terrorism Fomenting Islamic Republic of Pakistan has formally announced a MIRV test (Maybe 2 of them IIRC),

In an interview dating back to April 21, 2012 T.S. Subramanian, Avinash Chander, then Chief Controller, Missiles and Strategic Systems, DRDO said that “MIRV may come in two and a half years from now” ie by October 2014. We are well past that date:

Frontline:

‘Quality our concern'

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramdas » 16 Jun 2018 16:05

@haridas: what is stopping the demonstration of MIRV tech by DRDO? Political constraints even under Namo or is there still some tech. development to be done before it is ready?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby mody » 16 Jun 2018 17:06

Indranil wrote:Agni IV is a technology feeder and may disappear over time. Agni 1 and Agni 3 will morph into much lighter Agni 1P and Agni 3P. These missiles will have all composite stages, electromechanical actuators and pinpoint accuracy with light weight navigation.

If you are trying to hit somewhere nearby, you don’t use an ICBM. Not only are they more difficult to move and hide than their smaller and lighter missiles counterparts, they provide significantly higher reaction time to enemy missile defense systems.



There has been a lot of speculation with regards to Agni-3P, but there is no official news about the same.
Except for 1 cryptic line in a news paper interview of Tessy Thomas, there is no evidence that any thing like this even exists.

Agni-IV was to be tech feeder for Agni-V, but I think it will remain service. Agni-2 and Agni-3 which are currently deployed, will remain deployed for another 10 years atleast, till they get replaced by Agni-IV and Agni-V.
Also, all official DRDO communication and writeups have always mentioned the payload capacity of Agni-III as 1.5 Ton. I have never come across any official statement that gives a payload capacity of 2.5 Tons. A 2.5 Ton payload without MIRV and without pure TN warhead is useless.
For fission weapons, 200KT is the max practical limit and for boosted fission weapons also about 400-500 KT is the max practical limit.
There is no justification for having a single 2.5 Ton warhead.


Over a period of time, we will probably have an arsenal of Agni-1P with a 500 Kg (hopefully 300-350 Kg, 100 KT) warhead and 1,500 Km range, Angi-IV all composite with single 500 Kg 150 KT warhead with a 5,000 Km range and Agni-5, all composite with MIRV with 1.5 ton payload capacity with 150 KT to 220KT warheads, range 10,000 Kms. Along with this, we will have the BO-5, same a Agni-1P, K-4 with a 3,500 Km range and 1.5 Ton payload capacity with MIRV and K5 with 5,500 Km range with 1.5 Ton payload capacity with MIRV.

A6 may come for range in excess of 10,000 Kms.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 16 Jun 2018 21:56

ramdas wrote:@haridas: what is stopping the demonstration of MIRV tech by DRDO? Political constraints even under Namo or is there still some tech. development to be done before it is ready?


MIRV is not just the reentry technology but efficient high yield physics package.
Chander can talk about the former with authority.

MIRV is necessarily lower weight than single payload. So to be effective needs to be efficient. Or carry many. Not two or three.

Please do your own thinking too.


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