Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

[Cain Marko]

scrapped under pressure from massa is my suspicion as a 'destabilizing' weapon due to its non ballistic trajectory and dual payload capacity.

While now US/China/Ru has started making noise about new MTCR-like regime for hypersonic tech we still reel under pressure and stop key future capability building programs.

I hope evil yindoos keep building the blocks for it under various pretext so we are always a screwdriver turn away from it. That of coarse along with the SCRAMJET tech development.

Isnt the naval version of the shaurya, the K15 alrady operational? have a feelinng that shaurya has been operationalized quietly and without much fanfare as it should be..

[Karan M]

Don't forget that the ships also have very powerful jammers because unlike the missile and aircraft jammers, they are not power constrained. If there is a datalink, it can and will be disrupted. To assume otherwise is foolish and also fatal.

such talk should, at best, be restricted only to glossy paper brochures.

Cat and mouse - just what I remember. Note everything below is from public sources published in Russian media. I have deliberately kept some of the more detailed reports out.

The Brahmos uses a special seeker, with a LPI mode. It also practises EMCON - as versus continual emissions. In short, it uses the seeker every once in a while, in low probability of detection mode (specific waveforms) to detect & range targets (to update the navigation system). But it won't be constantly "ON" and hence constant jamming of the sophisticated kind (deception etc) will likely not work because by the time the jammer starts, the seeker would have gone silent and wont be using the data.

Though high power "noise jamming" may be of use if used from the beginning. However, Brahmos - like most missiles of its class, will also have a passive home on jam mode, so it is not easy to use conventional noise jamming either.

Again, the datalink on Brahmos will likely be used sparingly for updates from offboard sources, if any only if, the missile is fired at extreme range against fast moving targets. The Navy does not mention any datalink capability for Brahmos, but it would be extremely surprising if there isn't. If we have a 800 km missile, then a datalink is likely a must and should option.

About jamming the datalink, the question here is what are the airborne platforms that can detect a datalink in operation while the Brahmos is still on its way and jam it? I find that very hard to manage, logistically.

Thinking of how it comes together. A Talwar class or Delhi class or whatever, launches a Ka-31 which detects ships some 300 km away, while flying 100 km away from the carrier ship. The ships launch Brahmos which receives a feed from the ship with Ka-31 data, and somehow if the ships move so far away (a 2.8 M missile flying 400 km would take around 8 mins flying high).. so a destroyer doing 30 knots is gonna be moving around 55km per hour, and in 8 mins would move 8 km or thereabouts. Now a Brahmos seeker can easily manage that kind of dispersion when flying high and at range.

So a datalink IMHO is really useful for a) either allocating different targets to different Brahmos on the fly OR b ) for extreme ranges, i.e. 800 km (16km dispersion in everywhich way of a flotilla).

What makes this all interesting even more is the recent Brahmos tests which clearly involved a degree of imaging capability. So if the Brahmos seeker has the latest ISAR/SAR type capability via the software codeveloped with India, then its even more interesting because the missile can likely be loaded with specific target characteristics and hence does not need last minute datalink corrections so that all Brahmos dont go for one target and miss the rest.

In short its a very dangerous system looks like & does, to a degree, justify the hype.

[Karan M]

So the easiest way to fight the Brahmos ecosystem is simply, to target our Ka-31s or P-8s or long range eyes which can snoop way beyond the radar horizon on the ship and feed data back to the missile launching ships. Which then brings us to why is the Navy so insistent on maintaining an expensive carrier capability (beyond the usual arguments)
MiG-29s from a Vikramaditya or Rafales from IAC (I can dream), will basically be the escorts for the "eyes" like our Ka-31s or P-8s and also in turn protect us from the opponents eyes.

[srin]

Can satellites be used for transmitting targeting data (one way) ? Navy has GSAT 7.

[Cain Marko]

Super explanations Karan, from the trees to the wood.

[Indranil]

Karan,

Brahmos does have a datalink and packet transfer is intermittent.

[Cain Marko]

Aren't they also supposed to be linked to each other in a salvo launch. A Wolfpack type setup ala granit?

[Kersi]

Long ago I was playing with 2D animation on Ubuntu (Synfig) and I had created a little animation of how a "manoeuvring" Brahmos might attack a ship in a fleet. Imagine 6-7 ships sailing east, each ship about 5 km away from each other. The manoeuvring Brahmos would be launched and it could simply be programmed to fly east on a course parallel to the ships but 10 km north of the fleet and appear as if it is heading away from the fleet. It then does a huge 270 degree turn passing behind the fleet and back the other side to end up approaching one of the 7 ships from the south. A Brahmos passing by the fleet and doing a 270 degree turn of a circle of radius 10 km is quite feasible at 1000 m/sec and it would mean an extra 40 km or so but the ships would be left guessing as to where the missile is heading and where it is going to approach from (if at all) and which ship it is going to head for and by this time it will be 10 meters above the waves and nearly invisible. If a second Brahmos follows this one and approaches from the north - all ship defences will be divided between north and south - if they have even managed to get a lock on it

To confuse the target's defence systems, one the the missiles should be sea skimming, ~ 5 m above the sea and the second missile should be from 70,000 ft in diving mode.

[deejay]

WRT, Russian war doctrines - They are evolving with warfare requirements. Templatised warfare may not be the next war. Massed attacks are increasingly difficult especially if the enemy is distributed. Massed assets for a single front weakens options at other fronts. Russians in Syria have shown remarkable agility in adopting newer tactics and have depended as much as Americans on pin point accuracy. If anything, they have better results to show on ground.

Here is one drone video in colour of Russian taking out ISIS targets. Single strikes - small targets, targets of opportunity, permanent structures, tunnels, etc.


Another video of Klub/Kalbir strikes. Strikes take place from 100s of kilometers out on selected targets. No massed attack on one target. Notice the tracks of each missile. One missile per target, though the launch was a salvo.


However, they were fighting low tech ISIS. In a more evolved EW scenario, counter jammers will have to play a part and probably more than 01 missile (depending on importance) per target.

The Russian war philosophy/doctrine is as opportunistic as anyone else.

[deejay]

Long ago I was playing with 2D animation on Ubuntu (Synfig) and I had created a little animation of how a "manoeuvring" Brahmos might attack a ship in a fleet. Imagine 6-7 ships sailing east, each ship about 5 km away from each other. The manoeuvring Brahmos would be launched and it could simply be programmed to fly east on a course parallel to the ships but 10 km north of the fleet and appear as if it is heading away from the fleet. It then does a huge 270 degree turn passing behind the fleet and back the other side to end up approaching one of the 7 ships from the south. A Brahmos passing by the fleet and doing a 270 degree turn of a circle of radius 10 km is quite feasible at 1000 m/sec and it would mean an extra 40 km or so but the ships would be left guessing as to where the missile is heading and where it is going to approach from (if at all) and which ship it is going to head for and by this time it will be 10 meters above the waves and nearly invisible. If a second Brahmos follows this one and approaches from the north - all ship defences will be divided between north and south - if they have even managed to get a lock on it

To confuse the target's defence systems, one the the missiles should be sea skimming, ~ 5 m above the sea and the second missile should be from 70,000 ft in diving mode.

Aircraft launching Bramhos will need to be approx 1000 mtr clear of the highest terrain/water body for a clear missile launch (drop of 500 to 600 mtrs). At 300 Kms, that should be detectable from a radar at 30 mtrs mast over sea borne assets. Once the launch is detected, the asset can start working on counter measures. Hit probability decreases from 1.0(or close to it) to a much lower value. Bramhos has the advantage of high speed but it still does not guarantee a hit. If the target is important enough, more missiles will be launched to get the hit probability as close as possible to 1.0.

Since, the missile itself is expensive and will need one dedicated Su 30 for each launch and Su 30s will fly with their escorts in a hostile environment- the number of launches per target will tend to be closer to 1. The decision is then up to the leadership to think of the importance of the target and impact of the hit in the battle. This itself is a complex matrix and based on scores here targets will be assigned missiles.

Add to this complexity - IAF and INs jointness in such ops and one can clearly see that such missiles are needed under a joint command. One such command comes to mind.

[pankajs]

Brahmos with a range of 900 km should create a reasonable distance between the launch platform and the target.

Also a lot will depend on the Terminal guidance module. If it can be guided into the approx area by the INS/G3OM and switches to passive radar perhaps it can latch on to the strongest emitter in the vicinity. That should get it a capital ship.

disclaimer: Haven't followed the development for quite a while.

[Prasad]

Saar,
In addition to that - an air launched strike means high value target. Say type 55d. So you'd launch multiple missiles at the target from different vectors, with escorts screening the approach. The destroyer/carrier will have escorts too, so a 1:1 target: missile won't be enough imo. Given multiple missiles from multiple directions, ciws won't hack it if they get past other defenses.
An IR missile might be successful, given that the missile will be glowing like the sun at supersonic speeds on the sensor. Do missiles have maws?

[deejay]

Brahmos with a range of 900 km should create a reasonable distance between the launch platform and the target.

Also a lot will depend on the Terminal guidance module. If it can be guided into the approx area by the INS/G3OM and switches to passive radar perhaps it can latch on to the strongest emitter in the vicinity. That should get it a capital ship.

disclaimer: Haven't followed the development for quite a while.

I am talking deliberately of a very specific situation. You have to assume a base parameter for any analysis. The analysis for a 900 km range launch will be very different.

Also, 900 kms is max range? So all launches will be within 900 kms bubble. Enemy will know and plan for this.

[Cain Marko]

Saar,
In addition to that - an air launched strike means high value target. Say type 55d. So you'd launch multiple missiles at the target from different vectors, with escorts screening the approach. The destroyer/carrier will have escorts too, so a 1:1 target: missile won't be enough imo. Given multiple missiles from multiple directions, ciws won't hack it if they get past other defenses.
An IR missile might be successful, given that the missile will be glowing like the sun at supersonic speeds on the sensor. Do missiles have maws?

Anything short of a cbg will have a very hard time against bmos. Carriers will try to take out launch platforms with s fighters at long distances before release of Brahmos. Ddg types that rely on ships sensors will have limited coverage oth and will probably not have enough time after the missile is detected at horizon. Unless perhaps their own helis can provide some sort of aew and detect and track incoming missiles, AND provide guidance and updates to long ranged sams. Not sure if helis on ddgs are even capable of this kind of small rcs detection of incoming supersonics and at the same time also provide guidance to own sams.

[Austin]

Doesn't matter really , all ships aircraft carry more power and jammer that any missile can or its data link , that does not make missile obsolete or can't over come those.

What if the missile uses iir seeker like an AAM? not sure brahmos does but wouldn't be surprised if it does. although friction at low another might cause issues withsuch seekers? ..

IR seekeer has been used as backup since 70 on SU anti-ship missile the big ones , On Brahmos-NG they are proposing IIR seeker along with RF seeker.

Friction is not an issue but as with all IIR seeker is limited in range and environmental condition they dont have all weather capabiity like RF seeker or long range tracking/discrimination, Ofcourse during terminal phase 30-50 km from target Brahmos does one final RF sweep and dives at low level towards the target and then goes for the kill , during this phase they can rely on IIR seeker as it gets closer to further improve its accuracy and make it EW/Jam proof and keep manovering till the last few seconds not loosing the target from its IIR sight yet be passive , they would work like any other IIR seeker of AAM , relying on complete target image with all passive guidance.

Dual mode guidance is any time better then just relying on RF seeker https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/06 ... ption.html

[Cain Marko]

Would be nice to get Brahmos on other platforms like mpaas that can detect ships at v.long distances and make full use of missile range.

[Austin]

Would be nice to get Brahmos on other platforms like mpaas that can detect ships at v.long distances and make full use of missile range.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/06 ... ption.html

[Prasad]

One can also bank on IAF forming tactics to mask missile launches and confuse the enemy. Anything that caused confusion and delayed enemy response will increase kill probability. When flight time is 17 minutes to target, if you get 10 minutes delay....

[pankajs]

Brahmos with a range of 900 km should create a reasonable distance between the launch platform and the target.

Also a lot will depend on the Terminal guidance module. If it can be guided into the approx area by the INS/G3OM and switches to passive radar perhaps it can latch on to the strongest emitter in the vicinity. That should get it a capital ship.

disclaimer: Haven't followed the development for quite a while.

I am talking deliberately of a very specific situation. You have to assume a base parameter for any analysis. The analysis for a 900 km range launch will be very different.

Also, 900 kms is max range? So all launches will be within 900 kms bubble. Enemy will know and plan for this.

True. Assuming with all manuvering etc the range to be 600 km, what kind of a ship provide that kind of a bubble?

My guess is apart from a full CBG every other kind of group is dead in waters.

[pankajs]

While I haven't read it anywhere, I get the impression that that last manover will occur after the missile has done the last RF scan to locate the ship just before the full dive to a sea skimming mode and radio silence.

Thus the missile will approach the ship from a different direction than where it did the last scan. An alert ship will know that a missile is headed in its direction but not the actual attack path unless it can spot the sea skimming missile on its own radar.

[pankajs]

My guess is apart from a full CBG every other kind of group is dead in waters.

What kind of a search radar can spot a Su MKI 600 km?

Without a carrier to launch a fighter to chase down a MKI what kind of sams work up to 600 km?

Are there radars and sams that work at this distance and what kind of ships apart from a carrier group can provide such a bubble?

[deejay]

One can also bank on IAF forming tactics to mask missile launches and confuse the enemy. Anything that caused confusion and delayed enemy response will increase kill probability. When flight time is 17 minutes to target, if you get 10 minutes delay....

IAF in near future will not have enough platforms to launch anything so complicated.

[Austin]

Here is one drone video in colour of Russian taking out ISIS targets. Single strikes - small targets, targets of opportunity, permanent structures, tunnels, etc.

deejay , Didnt see this video before , Any idea what weapons are they using for attacking small selective isolated target , From video it appears the target is not aware they are under attack ,if this is aircraft or helicopter they would know something hovering from sound and AFAIK they dont use armed UAV.

[deejay]

^^^ Su 34 dropping bombs from fair height. No LDAs. Smaller targets appear to be dumb bombs. Hits on buildings appear more precise and cannot be small dumb bombs.

[Kersi]

One can also bank on IAF forming tactics to mask missile launches and confuse the enemy. Anything that caused confusion and delayed enemy response will increase kill probability. When flight time is 17 minutes to target, if you get 10 minutes delay....

A flight SU-30 MKI will carry and launch say 4 Brahmos at a target. Another flight, within the same area launch another 4 dummy Brahmos. The dummy can carry some EW equipment

[Austin]

^^^ Su 34 dropping bombs from fair height. No LDAs. Smaller targets appear to be dumb bombs. Hits on buildings appear more precise and cannot be small dumb bombs.

Jet engine makes huge noise how come these targets are not alerted about it ? And Su-34 would have synced all the attack with UAV overhead to film it in real time that would be another effort in itself

[JayS]

One can also bank on IAF forming tactics to mask missile launches and confuse the enemy. Anything that caused confusion and delayed enemy response will increase kill probability. When flight time is 17 minutes to target, if you get 10 minutes delay....

A flight SU-30 MKI will carry and launch say 4 Brahmos at a target. Another flight, within the same area launch another 4 dummy Brahmos. The dummy can carry some EW equipment

Looks like your dummies might be as much costly as the missile itself or a little less costly. Even if its half the price, i would say its more bang for the buck to just go with full missile and saturate defenses to increase pk. A few millions to take out high value ships/ targets is worth it. If the dummies can be cheap UAVs then its different matter. But cheap UAVs caanot simulate Superaonic missiles. Even a 5million worth decoy to save a 100million jet is a different thing. And 1-2million worth decoy for 3million missile is another. Can you think of a decoy which is significantly cheaper than the actual missile..? At least I cant.

[shiv]

^^^ Su 34 dropping bombs from fair height. No LDAs. Smaller targets appear to be dumb bombs. Hits on buildings appear more precise and cannot be small dumb bombs.

Those individual vehicles getting hit are remarkably accurate (within 2 meters?) And every flash is exactly at the cross hairs? Is the camera carrying vehicle providing the targeting information?

[shiv]

Forget Brahmos.

If a flotilla of 5 Chinese ships comes a sailin' a sailin' across the straits of Malacca
1. How the hell would enyone know they have cone?
2. How would they be identified?
3. How would they be followed?

[deejay]

^^^ Su 34 dropping bombs from fair height. No LDAs. Smaller targets appear to be dumb bombs. Hits on buildings appear more precise and cannot be small dumb bombs.

Jet engine makes huge noise how come these targets are not alerted about it ? And Su-34 would have synced all the attack with UAV overhead to film it in real time that would be another effort in itself

Stand Off munitions. Dropped 100/ 50 kms away with guidance can be the only answer.

[shaun]

^^^ Su 34 dropping bombs from fair height. No LDAs. Smaller targets appear to be dumb bombs. Hits on buildings appear more precise and cannot be small dumb bombs.

Those individual vehicles getting hit are remarkably accurate (within 2 meters?) And every flash is exactly at the cross hairs? Is the camera carrying vehicle providing the targeting information?

, The cross hair seems to be caliberated after the blasts ..

[manjgu]

shiv..i dont know they do it but the Naval chief Adm Lamba in a recent interview said ..we keep a very good eye over Malacaa in particular and over Indian ocean in general and know who is coming/going.

[manjgu]

let me guess... a) intelligence sharing with Indonesia, Malaysia, USN and other friendly navies b) own ships/subs in the area c) planes flying long range missions d) radio chatter e) info provided by merchant shipping .. once we know position then probably by satellites, subs as well if needed.

[disha]

Forget Brahmos.

If a flotilla of 5 Chinese ships comes a sailin' a sailin' across the straits of Malacca
1. How the hell would enyone know they have cone?
2. How would they be identified?
3. How would they be followed?

They either have to cross Sunda straight where all of them will be identified by nekkid eyes all the way to Sumatra (or) a west-east plying tanker/cointainer ship runs into it.

A listening station at port blair would give a good coverage upto Sumatra!

[KrishnaK]

Forget Brahmos.

If a flotilla of 5 Chinese ships comes a sailin' a sailin' across the straits of Malacca
1. How the hell would enyone know they have cone?
2. How would they be identified?
3. How would they be followed?

Not sure how they'd identify individual ships in busy shipping lanes, but MPA manned or unmanned for coverage.

[TPFscopes]

Forget Brahmos.

If a flotilla of 5 Chinese ships comes a sailin' a sailin' across the straits of Malacca
1. How the hell would enyone know they have cone?
2. How would they be identified?
3. How would they be followed?

I'd heard about something like GSAT-7 or INSAT-4F
The intention of the Indian Navy is to use this geostationary naval communication and surveillance satellite to especially cover activities up to the Malacca Straits in the east and the Hormuz Strait to the west. Rukmini has a nearly 2,000 nautical mile 'footprint' over the Indian Ocean Region.

These details are available in open source media and I'm Definitely sure that It can do much more than that.

Apart from the satellites, Indian Navy has dedicated Surfaced based Surveillance flotilla operated from A&N Islands and Nearby Malacca Strait we also have PIPA systems floating for weather forecast but can be used for surviellance in case of emergency...

I think, I'd hinted more than than required..

[manjgu]

most of shipping goes thru malacca staits and not sunda to the best of my knowledge. Wont a ship passing thru Malacca & Sunda need to take permission from Indonesia / Malaysia ( in case of Malacca)??

[Singha]

Sunda and lombok straits are i believe wide enough to be considered partially international waters outside the 16km from both sides?

[manjgu]

i just checked sunda straits is min 24 km and malacca straits is 2.7 km wide !! a navy expert can explain better about permissions..

[Singha]

wiki -- Its narrowest point is at its southern opening, with a width of about 20 km (12 miles) between the islands of Lombok and Nusa Penida, in the middle of the strait. At the northern opening, it is 40 km (25 miles) across. Its total length is about 60 km (37 miles). Because it is 250 m (820 feet) deep[1] — much deeper than the Strait of Malacca — ships that draw too much water to pass through Malacca (so-called "post Malaccamax" vessels) often use the Lombok Strait, instead.