Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

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Gyan
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Gyan » 16 Sep 2018 09:52

Chicken & Egg situation does not apply to HAL as it was given seperate funds to set up production line for 8 LCA per annum in 2003.

Then by 2006 it was given funds for 20 IOC LCA and in 2010 for 20 FOC LCA.

By 2015 funds for 20 IOC LCA were already expended alongwith substantial amount of FOC funds. Hence components were ordered.

The slow progress in assembly of IOC LCA is absolutely & completely HAL mess. To my knowledge there is no substantial progress in setting up 2nd or 3rd production line.

We will barely get 6-8 LCA this FY.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Karan M » 16 Sep 2018 15:23

Production numbers can always be ramped up. Critical issue is QA/QC - there can be no compromise on that.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SaiK » 16 Sep 2018 19:42

as much we can automate, with less human errors we can make.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby fanne » 17 Sep 2018 02:21

Chicken -egg applies to lca supply chain. While Hal has the fund, most parts are produced by private players and because of lack of confirmed orders, they may not willing to scale up.That may explain the slow rate?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Khalsa » 17 Sep 2018 02:25

Reading the last two pages is like watching a slow motion train wreck in regards to delivery numbers.
We know the promised and we know the delivery rate and we know the diff.

In regards to lines.
Is it not true that we are have 1.5 lines operating already ?
i.e a line that produces (can produce) 8 a year ... and another one that produces (can produce) 4 a year.
I am sure Sp-05 came from that line.

So when you say a second production line... is that a line after the second line (already in commission) ?

TBH , I don't think HAL will give up the 3rd production line to a Private Manufacturer especially if it will be used to launch the Mk1A.
I would love it .... but it would be a hard one. We do have a habit of scoring our own goals.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 17 Sep 2018 02:39

qweschuns wonlee... How do they plan to mitigate the issue of possible sanctions on engines somewhere down the line? Especially if the fleet is 300+ strong. Is this one reason why the iaf seems to have now moved it's goalpost to the mk2? Perhaps the kaveri will be ready by then?

I find this move deeply suspicious considering that the mk1 is as good as they can desire for making up numbers in quick time, especially since they are easily upgraded to mk1a standards.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SaiK » 17 Sep 2018 05:58

yes. safran to support on the 110kN (class/rough) kaveri, and we will come out of it soon [years?]. I am all eager to get them flown on the Tejas platform - most likely, it would be (has to be) Mk2 platform considering the F414 being 98kN. I don't know if F*INS6 is based off F*EPE which is supposed to be at 120kN.

Kaveri is one area, we are screwing it up right in the specs.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Philip » 17 Sep 2018 15:57

Has anyone pinpointed the true reasons why LCA prod. is so slow?.It was earlier alleged that each aircraft was the equiv. of a custom made unit and that no two aircraft were totally identical.But that would be understandable for prototypes and the first LSP birds.The current status is that a few have been handed over to the first sqd.and we are now in the production phase where all aircraft are built to standardised drawings and manuals provided for maintenance, etc.

The IAF have also placed orders for the first 40 MK-1s, with more 1As also sanctioned. Therefore it is a mystery why we are unable to build more at speed when we are building around 16 far larger and more sophisticated MKIs per yr. using 70% locally sourced raw material in the bargain. The cost review of the LCA called by the DM, as it is alleged to be higher than many ofthe western aircraft in the MRCA stakes could be a pointer.There is a significant % of firang eqpt. in the LCA.Are the firang entities deliberately ripping us off over the LCA so that their " pure- bred" fillies can effectively dump the programme on the cost factor and keep us drip- fed on firang fighters forever?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby nvishal » 17 Sep 2018 16:44

^ I doubt if any leader in new Delhi will approve mass production of tejas without a local engine(kaveri or even a Russian).

The newer tejas variants will be more expensive than f16 or 30mki. Strategic autonomy is expensive.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Trikaal » 17 Sep 2018 19:33

I think the reason for slow production is that HAL wanrs to stretch out production until Mk1A is ready to avoid idle production lines. They have done this before with Su-30,they are doing it again.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Gyan » 17 Sep 2018 23:27

Two lines currently in use are NOT really two lines but two parts of first line with ideal capacity of 4 and 3 ie around 7 aircraft per annum.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Khalsa » 18 Sep 2018 02:17

Gyan wrote:Two lines currently in use are NOT really two lines but two parts of first line with ideal capacity of 4 and 3 ie around 7 aircraft per annum.

Thank you Gyan.
I always took that to be two separate lines based at almost different sheds, hangars ... call it whatever you want.
AND
They were producing 8 + 4 per year.

If what you say is true then we are looking for a second production line with HAL and I hope to God a third one with a private player

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Khalsa » 18 Sep 2018 02:18

nvishal wrote:^ I doubt if any leader in new Delhi will approve mass production of tejas without a local engine(kaveri or even a Russian).
The newer tejas variants will be more expensive than f16 or 30mki. Strategic autonomy is expensive.


You are correct we don't have manhood inside our lungi to think this long term and play the game properly.
How did the swedes do this ?

How do we do this ?


Is the promise of over a 1000 engines for Tejas Family not a carrot big enough for Uncle Amreeka to be a good sport ? When does that carrot become a big liability ? At the end of Mk1, at the end Mk1A and beginning of Mk2.

I would certainly aim for Mk2 to be flying with kaveri.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ks_sachin » 18 Sep 2018 03:16

Khalsa wrote:
Gyan wrote:Two lines currently in use are NOT really two lines but two parts of first line with ideal capacity of 4 and 3 ie around 7 aircraft per annum.

Thank you Gyan.
I always took that to be two separate lines based at almost different sheds, hangars ... call it whatever you want.
AND
They were producing 8 + 4 per year.

If what you say is true then we are looking for a second production line with HAL and I hope to God a third one with a private player


khalsa, Indranil has written a detailed post on this sometime back. Kindly read to get correct facts. This is like groundhogs day!!!!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Vips » 18 Sep 2018 06:13

Trikaal wrote:I think the reason for slow production is that HAL wanrs to stretch out production until Mk1A is ready to avoid idle production lines. They have done this before with Su-30,they are doing it again.


Very right. HAL was supposed to be done with producing 272 SU 30's by 2015 and at the current rate they will do it only in 2020. That way the HAL chairman will get to do the photo-op of handing over dividend of few crores to a buffoon central minister every year that many more times.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby mody » 18 Sep 2018 15:44

The current production is being done on two lines. 5+3 for a total of 8 per year capacity.
What needs to be done urgently is to increase to 16 from 8 the new production line that is being set at HAL. About 1,380 crores have been sanctioned for this. Increase the outlay by another 50% and maybe we might be able to double the capacity addition from 8 to 16.

This will give a total capacity of 24 planes per annum. However, this will all come only when MK1A is ready for production. Even then, producing 83 planes will mean that the production run will be over is 3.5 years. This is not enough time for MK2 to be ready. MoD and IAF have to approve another 36 MK1A planes and plan for the increase in production capacity to total of 24 planes per annum.
Also, we have to keep in mind that these are only assembly lines. Ideally HAL should be outsourcing most of the production of parts and sub-assemblies to vendors and only doing the final assembly. This is the stated goal. However, if we want HAL to increase capacity to assemble 24 planes per annum, all vendors would also have to increase their capacity to produce parts to support this. This capital investment on part of the vendors will also get added to the cost of the aircraft. Also, capital outlays and investments of a few tens or hundred of crores cannot happen overnight in any company. They all have to receive confirmed purchase orders, with agreed t upon prices, before this can move forward.

Simply proposing that new line should be setup by a private company is too naïve. Especially for MK1A, which is a HAL project. Why would HAL transfer all the know how and designs to another company? If HAL would charge a fee for this, then the plane from the private company would end up becoming more expensive then produced by HAL.
The ideal thing to do would be to help the vendors increase their capacities, increase the number of parts that are being outsourced and give confirmed purchase orders with firm agreed upon prices. Increase numbers for MK1A by another 36 numbers if possible and finalize the prices and release the purchase order as soon as possible.
Also, firm up the price for future upgrade of MK1 planes to MK1A standard and raise the LOI to HAL, once the MK1A production starts.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby enaiel » 18 Sep 2018 22:14

mody wrote:The current production is being done on two lines. 5+3 for a total of 8 per year capacity.
What needs to be done urgently is to increase to 16 from 8 the new production line that is being set at HAL. About 1,380 crores have been sanctioned for this. Increase the outlay by another 50% and maybe we might be able to double the capacity addition from 8 to 16.


I thought the reason for the two lines 5+3 was because HAL was not able to squeeze 8 from a single line, even though the line is setup for 8 aircraft. Once the initial issues were resolved, the two lines were supposed to produce 8+4 or 12 aircraft this FY. However, they failed to produce their promised 8 aircraft last FY and look all set to fail to produce their promised 12 aircraft this FY. So basically what your saying is, even though HAL has taken money to setup assembly for 16 aircraft, due to their own issues, we need to give them even more money so that they can actually meet their promised targets! You might have intended to defend HAL, but instead you made them look a lot worse!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby enaiel » 18 Sep 2018 22:19

Are you saying that the only way to make sure HAL produces 16 aircraft a year, is to pay them for 24 aircraft a year :shock:

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Gyan » 18 Sep 2018 22:48

Incorrect. Production line for 16 has not been funded. Only for 8 and even that is incomplete.

16 production line will come for MKIA but MKIA not ordered yet.

24 line will come for Mk2.

Rest is overhopeful jingo.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby enaiel » 18 Sep 2018 23:03

A quick internet search would prove you wrong:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-17/india-s-local-aircraft-maker-enhances-jet-production-capacity

The Modi government approved an 13.81 billion rupee ($210 million) plan on March 15, 2017 to ramp up production of the Tejas jets at HAL from the existing capacity for eight aircraft a year to 16 aircraft. At present, it’s able to produce just six Tejas aircraft a year.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby enaiel » 19 Sep 2018 04:11

The truth is that even if HAL solved their issues which led them to producing only 6 LCA last FY, they still wouldn't be able to deliver their promised 12 LCA this FY because the SoP for LCA FOC SP-21 has not been finalized. And after they're through that hurdle, they will still not be able to deliver 16 LCA per FY because the SoP for LCA MK1A SP-41 is nowhere close to being finalized. So even though we finally have confirmed orders and funding, we still have a long way to go before HAL can produce 16 LCA a year! :((

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby prasannasimha » 19 Sep 2018 07:30

Lets be clear here before bashing HAL. Unless you fix a production variant and till you atop making major changes you cannot expect the production to be stabilized. Saying funds will be released amd actual release 9f funds are two different things. A newspaper statement does not mean actudl release of funds. That is the problem.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Gyan » 19 Sep 2018 09:27

It will take atleast 3 years or by HAL speed 5-7 years after approval to set up second production line of 8 aircraft to increase production 16 aircraft

Hence the earliest 16 aircraft will roll out of HAL is in 2022. Wishful thinking does not help anybody. Main components of Mark 1A that is radar have still not been Ordered and after the order is placed it will take at least three years for the first mark Ia to roll out.

Hence we again come to 2022. I think the best HAL can do and what we can wish for is that HAL should achieve production of 8 aircraft per annum

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 19 Sep 2018 10:15

Yes, even though we ordered Rafale in 2016, French are delivering the 36 aircraft from 2019-22, same for scorpenes, same for SU 30MKI- frozen 1996 but first MKI delivered in 2002. M777 etc

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Pratyush » 19 Sep 2018 11:40

What are the major bottlenecks for enhanced production of Tejas? Surely at this time it is no longer the lack of orders. And the line is active with established supply chain.

So what gives?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Yagnasri » 19 Sep 2018 12:05

Mango post: I think there is only promise of orders and not actual orders. When we need a number of units it would be better to have an in principle order with all the number and keep the production line open churning out units at regular pace. The orders for example shall not depend of advanced variations like Mk2 etc. If Mk2 is not ready then production of Mk1A shall continue and if Mk1A is not ready then Mk1 shall continue. IAF is already involved in the production management in a direct way. Not the best way but will be very good for making numbers even lesser versions.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby mody » 19 Sep 2018 12:23

Pratyush wrote:What are the major bottlenecks for enhanced production of Tejas? Surely at this time it is no longer the lack of orders. And the line is active with established supply chain.

So what gives?


The SOP for SP21 onwards-FOC aircrafts is not yet fixed. IAF is asking for SDR to be included as part of FOC. The gun trials are still in the air. It is not known if IAF wants the production to go ahead without the final gun trials or the production will have to wait.
HAL does not want the line to remain idle. The vendors cannot over commit, without firm commitments and final approved drawings etc.

HAL still cannot produce minimum 8 aircrafts from the supposed 1.5 lines that it currently operates. Still some confusion, if the 1.5 lines corresponds to 5+3= 8 planes per year or eventually it will be 8+4=12 planes per year.
The second line for 8 additional planes was approved at a cost of 1,380 crores. The progress of the same is not known, however, it was to be become operational only when the production of MK1A was to start.

The progress of MK1A is not known. As was discussed on the last page, the only info available is that 2052 AESA has been selected, but no news on firm orders having been placed and that DARE is developing the EW pod. Progress on weight reduction and re-arranging of LRUs for ease of maintenance at HAL, is not known. However, work is probably going on.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Gagan » 19 Sep 2018 20:10

Prasad wrote:Gagan,
could you please edit it and put in Dynamatic Technologies instead of Dynamic ? :)

Prasad ji
Just saw this. Will have to find the original bitmap file in my computers and will edit it.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Gagan » 19 Sep 2018 20:14

The reason why bulk production is still not happening by HAL is most likely because things are in flux with the Mk 1A, lines still being established.
They are eventually going to sort it out in their time consuming, inefficient, sarkari way, and production will begin.
Hopefully the 1A will be finalized, everything frozen soon, so that its production begins.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Trikaal » 19 Sep 2018 21:52

^Forget Mk1A, even Mk1 FOC isn't fixed yet. And so long as those aren't fixed, HAL will continue to extend Mk1 production to keep production lines busy.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Indranil » 19 Sep 2018 22:08

Trikaal wrote:^Forget Mk1A, even Mk1 FOC isn't fixed yet. And so long as those aren't fixed, HAL will continue to extend Mk1 production to keep production lines busy.

And you know this? For sure?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Trikaal » 19 Sep 2018 23:08

^Common sense isn't it? Regarding stretching production, HAL has done it before too with Su-30. Not exactly wrong on their part, since empty production lines means no output to show. So they will stretch this out till FOC and then till Mk1A and then till Mk2 and so on.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Theeran » 19 Sep 2018 23:34

^^ Assuming that is the case, the idle line costing has to be looked differently. Any delay on HAL's part is costing India more by buying outside or costing in terms of military preparedness. It should be perfectly fine to have a line idle. Are we still stuck in archaic production formulations? Hope IAF at the top knocks sense into the department heads.


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