Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

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Re: Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

Postby Cybaru » 22 Feb 2019 23:40

I think just leave HAL alone and make sure the product shows up on time and high quality. If they start tinkering and it doesn't pan out, then everyone suffers. Lets ensure that when ADA hands over stuff to HAL it is finished, baked, done and really done.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

Postby JTull » 22 Feb 2019 23:55

HAL deserves the blame it is getting. They also made mistake in running to politicians.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

Postby SaiK » 23 Feb 2019 00:06

ADA should act like CAG for HAL. Just saying.. we need to thrash the differences soon or face bigO problems for any unwanted reasons (#flight_safety)

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Re: Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

Postby JayS » 23 Feb 2019 00:35

ks_sachin wrote:
Prasad wrote:Should've said hi :)

Ah thought u are based in Blore.
Will be there in April if any BRFites are in town.


Would love to catch up. Pleez to give some heads up.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

Postby JayS » 23 Feb 2019 00:42

ramana wrote:The paper design takes about 3-4 years.
I think they now got Authority To Proceed(ATP). The 800 crore is for the production of the prototypes etc. Will have annual funding tranches based on program plans.
I agree with your milestones from planning perspective.


Saar, MK2 is already approved long time back, like in 2009 as part of FSED-3. 'Grant-in-Aid' is hiked once midway along with time line push till some month in 2018, don't remember exactly. Now one more extension and hike is being asked for. Yes the money will mostly be for prototype production. ADA still has some unspent money from FSED3 I think. They want some more. LCA does not get annual funding. It gets grant-in-aid as one time sanctions. LCA is actually one of the better funded projects, relatively speaking.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

Postby JayS » 23 Feb 2019 00:43

SaiK wrote:ADA should act like CAG for HAL. Just saying.. we need to thrash the differences soon or face bigO problems for any unwanted reasons (#flight_safety)


ADA has no power, neither money nor admin power over the stake holders.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

Postby Bala Vignesh » 23 Feb 2019 01:03

ks_sachin wrote:
Prasad wrote:Should've said hi :)

Ah thought u are based in Blore.
Will be there in April if any BRFites are in town.

There are quite a few of us here, ks_sachinji.. And I for one would definately like to say hi to any birader coming to visit..

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Re: Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

Postby naird » 23 Feb 2019 01:17

Indranil and Jay S article has gone live folks ... Finally !

http://delhidefencereview.com/2019/02/2 ... er-part-i/

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Re: Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

Postby ks_sachin » 23 Feb 2019 01:39

Bala Vignesh wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:Ah thought u are based in Blore.
Will be there in April if any BRFites are in town.

There are quite a few of us here, ks_sachinji.. And I for one would definately like to say hi to any birader coming to visit..

Cool I am from Bangalore so please drop me a line and perhaps we can organise a meet and greet


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Re: Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

Postby jaysimha » 23 Feb 2019 13:11

https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/video/Aero-India.mp4

Edited by Karan M

Jaysimha thanks for the video but at 1:31 that is the Principal Scientific Adviser to the GOI and those people you were referring to in such a manner are the HAL and ADA guys who work on the plane, and they are taking pics with both the pilot and PSA. Please don't make such comments.

---
Folks, good quality video. Gen Rawats visit is from 0:27. PSA's from 1.21, at 2:03 there is the Tejas display, brief snippet.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

Postby Karan M » 23 Feb 2019 13:32



Superb! The comparisons between Mk1 and Mk2 really bring out the difference.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

Postby Austin » 23 Feb 2019 13:38

Seems like Tejas Mk2 has similar capability like Gripen E but I dont understand why does it have 500 km less ferry range inspite of it having higher empty weight ?

Any specific advantage that Tejas Mk2 will have over Gripen E like STR , Accleration etc

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Re: Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

Postby JayS » 23 Feb 2019 14:19

Time to change name of the thread. Was wondering, will MWF get a new name..? :wink:

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Re: Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

Postby Karan M » 23 Feb 2019 14:20

JayS, so VK Thakurs comments about initial WT results showing marginal utility for canard and design still not frozen were completely mistaken. This is the final config., more or less.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

Postby JayS » 23 Feb 2019 14:29

Austin wrote:Seems like Tejas Mk2 has similar capability like Gripen E but I dont understand why does it have 500 km less ferry range inspite of it having higher empty weight ?

Any specific advantage that Tejas Mk2 will have over Gripen E like STR , Accleration etc


Its just an estimation. We know ADA gives realistic numbers rather than cherry picked data like SAAB.

It depends on empty weight. Given MK1's 7.1T weight, I find it bit difficult to digest MWF will have 7T weight. But it still could be significantly better than Gripen E. If ADA can achieve even 7.5T empty weight, it should see better kinematic performance for same thrust. Now no one can claim, MWF has more drag compared to Gripen.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

Postby Kakarat » 23 Feb 2019 14:32

JayS wrote:Time to change name of the thread. Was wondering, will MWF get a new name..? :wink:


Seems that way from the interview of Dr Girish Deodhare where he says 'A new name is being thought off currently We call it Tejas MkII for now'
https://twitter.com/writetake/status/10 ... 1056533505

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Re: Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

Postby Kakarat » 23 Feb 2019 14:44

Thank You Indranil and Jay S for such great effort

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Re: Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

Postby Zynda » 23 Feb 2019 14:56

Titbit from an insider. ADA is accepting suggestions from its employees onlee, of Indian names for both NLCA & MWF. If anyone here can think of some, may be we can start collecting names (may be in a new thread or newbie thread?) and I can forward it to a few folks.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

Postby SKrishna » 23 Feb 2019 15:44

Fantastic articles Indranil and Nilesh aka Jay S!!! Take a bow!! This is the sort of thing that jingos salivate for!

Now waiting for similarly superb stuff on Naval Mk-II too. This one was also a surprise packet with pure delta wing and tiny rear stabilisers. Looks like the designers attempted to solve each customer’s problem differently.

PS: I too noticed the mini LERX. (See my post earlier) Glad you mentioned it in your article otherwise I had started doubting what I saw as no one else noticed it seemed.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

Postby JayS » 23 Feb 2019 15:53

Karan M wrote:JayS, so VK Thakurs comments about initial WT results showing marginal utility for canard and design still not frozen were completely mistaken. This is the final config., more or less.


Just saw his tweet. I do not know about the underwhelming aerodynamic payoff of canards he is referring to. Also I don't know why people think Canards are bad for RCS necessarily. If he knows this as a matter of fact, I cannot refute that of coarse as I have no specific info otherwise. But to me it looks like its general comment and I wont take it too seriously.

Another thing is why would ADA go to so much length of displaying all new models if they are not sure about them..? After all they kept quite through AI17. Surely the decision to go for MWF was taken much earlier. Its not possible to redesign LCA MK2 to MWF within 2yrs and be at a stage where you can send RFI for jig manufacturing and be ready for metal cutting within months. The decision must have been taken in one of those meetings that MP undertook in 2014-15 where MK1A was accepted as interim solution. That gives breather to ADA for time for redesign, HAL gets MK1A to keep lines ticking and IAF gets 4 SQs before Mk2 can come. MK2 unlocks the true potential of LCA. Everyone is happy. They have done extensive WT testing. Many many models have been tested in various WTs including one in US and one in Europe. Then extensive CFD, structural, dynamics and whole bunch of other times of SW and HW simulations, full design loop must have been re-executed. thats easily 4-5yrs job. If they could have waited so many yrs for unveiling MWF, they could have waited some more and take final decision on canards. It doesn't fit in the way things are panning out that ADA will showcase half-baked plan.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

Postby JayS » 23 Feb 2019 16:04

SKrishna wrote:Fantastic articles Indranil and Nilesh aka Jay S!!! Take a bow!! This is the sort of thing that jingos salivate for!

Now waiting for similarly superb stuff on Naval Mk-II too. This one was also a surprise packet with pure delta wing and tiny rear stabilisers. Looks like the designers attempted to solve each customer’s problem differently.

PS: I too noticed the mini LERX. (See my post earlier) Glad you mentioned it in your article otherwise I had started doubting what I saw as no one else noticed it seemed.


The article was written prior to Aero India. We will update it with new info from AI.

I had guessed the purpose of LREX and then confirmed it with ADA enggs at AI. That one is to anchor the inboard wing LE vortex as its now under the influence of canards. Since the inboard wing is of lower sweep angle, its not so aggressive in producing a LE vortex as the rest of the portion, hence a tiny LERX is sufficient I think.

The design philosophy is to have a predictable and well defined location for the vortex. Otherwise you may have it moving all over the place giving rise to unsteadiness and bad handling qualities. You can observe it in other elements such as sharp edges on nose. Apart from being RCS friendly, it also helps anchor forebody vortex. SR-71 designers used it to extreme level. LCA designer studied tiny chin mounted strakes for similar purpose. In structural engineering as well we can see similar philosophy employed where a particular part is made weaker so failure always happens there. Car crumple zones for crashworthiness are good examples.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

Postby Austin » 23 Feb 2019 16:07

Jay Indranil great write up , We needed something like this for long time.

In older ATF program they used to have canard for LO fighter.

I dont think RCS is much of an issue if there is a good aerodynamic performance gains to me made , RCS can/will change drastically depending on the payload an aircraft carry.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

Postby ks_sachin » 23 Feb 2019 16:54

SKrishna wrote:Fantastic articles Indranil and Nilesh aka Jay S!!!

Nilesh is JayS!!!
:shock: :shock: :shock:

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Re: Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

Postby chola » 23 Feb 2019 17:00

ks_sachin wrote:
SKrishna wrote:Fantastic articles Indranil and Nilesh aka Jay S!!!

Nilesh is JayS!!!
:shock: :shock: :shock:


Lol. I want to know who else in the press corps is lurking among us? Pubby, Jha you guys here too?

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Re: Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

Postby Khalsa » 23 Feb 2019 17:54

without insulting the less secure amongst the press corps about their abilities, I believe BR has played an important role in expanding their horizons ...

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Re: Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

Postby VickyAvinash » 23 Feb 2019 18:07

I really wish Vivek Ahuja sir would have been here. Would love to see his assessment on MWF as well.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

Postby Bharadwaj » 23 Feb 2019 19:48

To the untrained eye the proposed navy mk2 looks like a far more elegant solution while the mwf looks somewhat like a bandaid job to meet changing requirements. AMCA,MK1a,MWF and Navy MK2 all at the same time- hope ADA gets the budgetary resources they will need.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

Postby Yagnasri » 23 Feb 2019 20:13

I name thee "USHAS". Destroyer of darkness.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 23 Feb 2019 20:17

Karan M wrote:


Superb! The comparisons between Mk1 and Mk2 really bring out the difference.

Indranil and JayS - you guys are amazing. WOW! Beautiful end to a first part! Congrats!

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Re: Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

Postby JayS » 23 Feb 2019 23:14

Looks like I am going to have to redact my name from here, just like CAG removed Rafale prices. :wink:

Zynda wrote:Titbit from an insider. ADA is accepting suggestions from its employees onlee, of Indian names for both NLCA & MWF. If anyone here can think of some, may be we can start collecting names (may be in a new thread or newbie thread?) and I can forward it to a few folks.

Cool

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Re: Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

Postby dkhare » 23 Feb 2019 23:28

Excellent article Indranil & Jay's. Thank you for taking the time and effort to produce this.

A couple of observations:
1. "On the other hand, the lower wing join shows better wing body blending which should lead to lower interference drag."
I saw this in the initial videos and am glad it is was considered and incorporated into the design. I was wondering if the MLG stays the same and retracts into the same location or will it be modified for simplicity and weight and retract into the new wing blending like the SU30MKI?

2. "The low energy boundary layer flow separated by the splitter plate is redirected under the fuselage now. The slot which redirects some of this air over the wing in Tejas Mk1 is eliminated in the MWF."
The wind tunnel model of the MWF shows this slot still exists to redirect air over the wing. Have they since eliminated it and all the flow is directed below the wing? Was the displayed wind tunnel model just an earlier iteration?

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Re: Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

Postby Indranil » 23 Feb 2019 23:32

Austin,

According to SAAB, sometimes Gripen E becomes a sixth generation aircraft.

According to ADA, Tejas MK1 ferry range is 1750 km, when they have already flown about 2100 km unrefueled.

It is almost certain that MK1/MK1A will be cleared for 8.5Gs

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Re: Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 24 Feb 2019 00:39

And as per wiki chacha, F-18E/F Super Hornet has a design load factor of 7.6 g

I ain't no fighter pilot, but I know 8.5 g > 7.6 g :mrgreen:

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Re: Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 24 Feb 2019 00:48

Zynda wrote:Titbit from an insider. ADA is accepting suggestions from its employees onlee, of Indian names for both NLCA & MWF. If anyone here can think of some, may be we can start collecting names (may be in a new thread or newbie thread?) and I can forward it to a few folks.

Are you serious? I take a cue from Singha Saar and suggest the name Aruval for the MWF :)

And for NLCA, here are some ----> Aara/Urumi, Gada, Parshu, Talwar, Kirpan, Tir, Khukri, Katar, Trishul, Khanda

Aruval

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 24 Feb 2019 01:05

My one concern about canards is will they restrict pilot view? The other concern is weight gain. The third is that everything is still reliant on US supplied engine that is prone to sanctions. Can this last issue be mitigated by buying extra numbers of engines? The kaveri snecma thing seems to have petered out as far as lca is concerned? Damn. I was so hoping that a 9 ton kaveri would be used during mlu for existing birds and for mk1a.

Frankly IAF should order another 120 mk1a. Their orders should not be contingent on mk2, which should be based on local engine even if it takes 2030 for first flight.
Last edited by Cain Marko on 24 Feb 2019 01:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 24 Feb 2019 01:07

X-Post from the Tejas Mk1/Mk1A thread....

Rakesh wrote:
ashishvikas wrote:Rakesh Sir - It needs to be bookmarked in page 1.

Excellent idea. I will link.

JayS and Indranil ---> I want to add your article in page 1 of this thread, just like in the Tejas Mk1/Mk1A thread.

However page 1 of the Mk2 thread is loaded with pictures and a 2015 report from ADA.

Should we do a revamp of that post and clean it up with more up-to-date pictures and info?

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Re: Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

Postby JayS » 24 Feb 2019 01:47

Perhaps we should start fresh thread. Of coarse this thread will be linked there as previous link.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

Postby Zynda » 24 Feb 2019 02:07

Rakesh wrote:
Zynda wrote:Titbit from an insider. ADA is accepting suggestions from its employees onlee, of Indian names for both NLCA & MWF. If anyone here can think of some, may be we can start collecting names (may be in a new thread or newbie thread?) and I can forward it to a few folks.

Are you serious?

Absolutely. Been told there will be some prizes for candidates whose submissions ends up being selected. Not gonna spill what the prizes are but they are enticing enough to spark lot of participation.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 24 Feb 2019 03:19

JayS wrote:Perhaps we should start fresh thread. Of coarse this thread will be linked there as previous link.

Okay, I will start one. But you, Indranil, Karan please chip in. Thanks.


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