Tracking Unsolicited Hardware Proposals and Offers Thread

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nvishal
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Tracking Unsolicited Hardware Proposals and Offers Thread

Postby nvishal » 14 Apr 2018 23:07

Ever since the arrival of the DTTI(Defence Technology and Trade Initiative) agreement between the US and India, and the designation of india as a "major defence partner" - whatever that means - the indian side has been left puzzled and confused. This has caused the indian side to fish for restricted hardware from the US(javelin, armed predator drone etc). And every time, india makes a proposal, the americans respond with a counter proposal of "co-development"(ie, a diplomatic way of rejecting the original proposal).

This has been going on for years now and I thought it needed a separate thread of its own.

A few from the past

We asked for armed drones > they countered by offering guardian drones instead
US considering Indian request of armed drones for air force
US Approves $2 Billion Sale of Naval Surveillance Drones to India

We asked for javelin > They replied with co-development proposal > we selected israeli spike > the israelis 'mysteriously' withdrew ToT. The americans make a fresh offer
Not only F-16 fighters, Lockheed ready to make Javelin missiles in India

Current

Boeing, HAL, Mahindra tie up to build Super Hornet fighters in India
The Boeing Company on Thursday announced a partnership with public sector HAL and Mahindra Defence Systems to make the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet in India

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Re: Tracking Unsolicited Hardware Proposals and Offers Thread

Postby brar_w » 14 Apr 2018 23:18

Requests to the US Government can be made by two interested parties - The end user who may wish to acquire the capability and the OEM who may wish to obtain clearances in order to further its interests for specific offers or potential sales. GOTUS just doesn't randomly approve X when it has not been asked or when they have not been requested for it. Regarding the deals mentioned, Boeing's F/A-18E/F offer is partly linked to the RFI floated for Naval Aircraft to which they claim to have submitted a response to the Indian MOD. Not much is known via official sources on any formal request for Avenger armed drones but that has no bearing on a similar request for a naval ISR drone even though they may be based on the same platform and marketed by the same OEM. Those may be independent requests.

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Re: Tracking Unsolicited Hardware Proposals and Offers Thread

Postby nvishal » 15 Apr 2018 01:36

Requests ARE being made to acquire current generation hardware but the americans are rejecting it using the "co-development" counter-proposal.

The purpose of the DTTI is not clear and neither is their designation of india as "major defence partner". I suspect that all this theatricals maybe subterfuge to keep the status quo(the current order of balance).

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Re: Tracking Unsolicited Hardware Proposals and Offers Thread

Postby brar_w » 15 Apr 2018 17:38

nvishal wrote:Requests ARE being made to acquire current generation hardware but the americans are rejecting it using the "co-development" counter-proposal.

The purpose of the DTTI is not clear and neither is their designation of india as "major defence partner". I suspect that all this theatricals maybe subterfuge to keep the status quo(the current order of balance).


I don't have much open source data on requests or anything official stating that X has been rejected, and converted to a counter proposal for Y. I don't assume to have seen everything so if there is official evidence to support that conclusion please provide it.

For example, in your first post, you claimed that the request for the Avenger was set aside, and the US Government unilaterally moved to the Sea Guardian. This is not backed by evidence from what I have seen. These two are very different systems, one is a strike/ISR platform, while the other is a Maritime Surveillance system. If the US wanted to set aside Avenger, they would asked the industry to either respond to this request (for the IAF) by either offering an unarmed version of the Avenger, or an alternative ISR variant of the Reaper family. They sure as hell would not have asked to offer a Maritime platform which is of limited use to the IAF. There is a good possibility that either a request from India or requests by US Industry to market/sell the product to India was made to the US Government which then approved it to go forward. Of course, these are just preliminary approvals as they would have to finally go through other procedures of approval and notifications. The current administration, in between its constant churn and turnover, is looking at relaxing drone (including armed drone) export policies and this is at various stages of implementation.

Similarly, as I had pointed out earlier, Boeing offered the F-18 Block III for a known Indian Navy request for information which the MOD sent them. Boeing's leadership is on record, as of a few weeks ago, of confirming that they have officially responded to this request with the SHornet proposal. This too was not a case of "Asked for X and offered Y". As part of its proposals, Boeing is pitching a broader adoption of the SH under MII but that is just marketing that they as a for-profit company are doing along with their chosen local partners.

DTTI is probably slowed down for many reasons but then again it will likely involve smaller projects at first. Both the bureaucracies are notoriously slow so don't expect some rapid movement on that front.

For example, on the carrier front, General Atomics has been cleared to market and sell the EMALS system to India and I believe this request came through at the same time that it did for France so there are most definitely cutting edge systems that are not even operational with the US services, that are being allowed to be pursued. P-8s were also being delivered concurrently etc.

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Re: Tracking Unsolicited Hardware Proposals and Offers Thread

Postby nvishal » 26 Apr 2018 00:02

Lockheed to sweeten India fighter jet bid with F-35 technology
The global defense giant will offer jets equipped with the advanced radar which is fitted on its fifth-generation combat jet, the F-35, as well as a helmet-mounted tracking system and a new radio data link system, Vivek Lall, vice president for strategy and business development at Lockheed Martin said Wednesday.

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Re: Tracking Unsolicited Hardware Proposals and Offers Thread

Postby nvishal » 01 May 2018 18:13

In june 2017, the US had rejected the indian request for armed predator drones by approving the sale of surveillance version of the drone instead. Since then, the deal spent months in the cold storage(~10 months) but as per reports in HT yesterday, the americans have(out of the blue) approved indias original request for sale of armed predator drones.

Among the condition of sale is for india to sign the Communications Compatibility and Security Agreement (COMCASA) and Basic Exchange and Cooperation Agreement (BECA). Indian counter strategy will be to replace american communication modules with indian one as we had done earlier with the C17 globemaster purchase. Another issue with operating americans drones is that they will know where we are looking. Cost of operating these network of drones is also an issue expressed by the indian side.

read here
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... m2olM.html

The approval has come after rustom 2's development has gained momentum in the last one year.

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Re: Tracking Unsolicited Hardware Proposals and Offers Thread

Postby nvishal » 24 Jul 2018 19:57

nvishal wrote:We asked for armed drones > they counter-offered(aka rejected) by offering guardian drones instead
US considering Indian request of armed drones for air force
US Approves $2 Billion Sale of Naval Surveillance Drones to India

Coming back to the drone saga, india probably didn't respond to surveillance drone counter-offer. Last week, the americans agreed to sell the armed drones to india under condition(COMCOSA)

U.S. offers India armed version of Guardian drone
The United States has offered India the armed version of Guardian drones that were originally authorized for sale as unarmed for surveillance purposes, a senior U.S. official and an industry source told Reuters.

[...]

The cost and integration of the weapons system are still issues, as well as Indian assent to the Communications Compatibility and Security Agreement (COMCASA) which Washington insists on


The problem with using some parts of american hardware is it reveals where we're looking. This creates a problem where indian interests conflict with those of americans(see ally - pakistan). The 2016 drone strikes in PoK may have used israeli heron drones BUT I suspect it was most likely done with an unnamed indian made armed drone prototype. There is no way india could strike in pakistan using american drones. The americans will either inform pakistan about the drones whereabouts or restrict future maintenance if we used their drones to strike their ally.

The indian attempt with the american armed predator drones will be to replace its communication and navigation equipment with indian one, just like it did with the 130j and the c17. Perhaps the americans realised that comcosa was not happening so they offered the conditional drones knowing well that india would not accept it.

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Re: Tracking Unsolicited Hardware Proposals and Offers Thread

Postby nvishal » 04 Sep 2018 18:34

Lockheed Martin reportedly set to build all F-16 wings in India
Lockheed Martin has announced it is to build all wings for the F-16 fighter jet in India.

The U.S. defense firm said it will partner with Indian firm Tata Advanced Systems to manufacture the wings at a facility in Hyderabad from late 2020

The F16(along with the F18) was/were eliminated in the early stages of the MMRCA competition. While this move made GoIs intentions clear, it hasn't stopped the US from pitching the F16/18 to india.

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Re: Tracking Unsolicited Hardware Proposals and Offers Thread

Postby Gagan » 05 Sep 2018 03:41

The interesting thing will be that the Pakistanis will go all out to take out Indian drones, but won't be able to shoot down American drones of a similar make.
Either they will shut up and bear it as the IAF / IA hunt and take out Cross LOC terror launching pads with impunity, or try to take these drones out, inviting bigger Drone-ka-baaps from the Indian side.

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Re: Tracking Unsolicited Hardware Proposals and Offers Thread

Postby nvishal » 06 Sep 2018 14:07

^Access to afg is essential for americans and they will not risk it.

If india decides to go ahead with the purchase of US drones, it will indicate a major policy change. Either that or the drones will only be stationed in the eastern sector.

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Re: Tracking Unsolicited Hardware Proposals and Offers Thread

Postby Bart S » 06 Sep 2018 14:23

Why the fuss about unsolicited offers? This is a basic aspect of sales, and life. You cant walk on a street in India without someone trying to sell you something or the other.

And this thread seems to be started with the idea of tracking just American sales efforts and ignore the multitude of unsolicited Russian equipment that is frequently thrust in our face.

IMHO various vendors offering us stuff is not a bad thing, the main thing is to have a razor sharp focus on our needs and interests, something that is sadly lacking a lot of the time. To quote from the movie Sucker Punch, "If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything".

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Re: Tracking Unsolicited Hardware Proposals and Offers Thread

Postby souravB » 06 Sep 2018 15:24

I read an article in IDRW today that US wants us to partner in their FVL program. if true and we can negotiate well, could be a big boost in terms of capability.
IDRW link

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Re: Tracking Unsolicited Hardware Proposals and Offers Thread

Postby nvishal » 06 Sep 2018 18:30

Bart S, I'm posting what I can find on public sites without discrimination. If you find any similar proposals from the russian side, nothing stops you from posting them.


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