Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

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Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Kakarat » 03 Jul 2018 01:31

Link to last post of previous 'Indian Navy News & Discussion'

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Kakarat » 03 Jul 2018 01:33

Indian Navy to trial new ESM system on Kamov Ka-31 helicopters
Mrityunjoy Mazumdar

The Indian Navy will trial a newly developed airborne electronic warfare (EW) system aboard its Kamov Ka-31 airborne early warning helicopter.

A June 2018 tender document for the programme disclosed that the country’s Defence Electronics Research Laboratory (DLRL) is seeking a vendor to perform “platform modification and installation” of the Sarang electronic support measures (ESM) system for the aircraft type. The vendor should execute the contract within 18 weeks from order placement.

The Sarang ESM system comprises several antennae types, including cavity-backed spiral antennae for the high-accuracy baseline interferometer (BLI) direction finding system that are mounted at various locations on the airframe to obtain all around coverage, associated line replaceable units, and a ruggedised laptop display inside the cockpit.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jul 2018 04:04

Sad News. Admiral JG Nadkarni passed away.

https://twitter.com/LestWeForgetIN/stat ... 3315185664 ---> Admiral Jayant Ganpat Nadkarni PVSM, AVSM, NM, VSM (Retd) upon his passing, a while ago. The Admiral was 86 years old, and served as 14th CNS of the Indian Navy from 01 Dec 1987 - 30 Nov 1990. Condolences to Nadkarni family and the Indian Navy.

Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Manish_P » 03 Jul 2018 10:43

An exceptional Warrior & a Gentleman moves on..

Om Shanti!

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby astal » 03 Jul 2018 11:10

Admiral Nadkarni was a truly upright officer who brooked no nonsense. I have heard several anecdotes from officers who served with him. May he attain moksha. I also had the good fortune to meet him today in Chicago back in 1997.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby dinesha » 03 Jul 2018 12:07

Make in India to go to Russia? Government to take call on Rs 2,400-crore submarine plan
By Manu Pubby
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 834783.cms

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby tsarkar » 03 Jul 2018 14:32

dinesha wrote:Make in India to go to Russia? Government to take call on Rs 2,400-crore submarine plan
By Manu Pubby
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 834783.cms


Paging Philip & Austin, this is one of the reasons why Indian political leadership, ministry bureaucrats and armed forces are dissatisfied with Russia. India is the largest export customer of Type 877 EKM submarines yet for refits we've to send them all the way to Russia. OEM withholds technology and information. These are the only ships IN has to send overseas for refit. Every other ship is maintained in India. This perfidy is not in the right spirit of partnership.

Before you cite the incorrect and humiliating view that Indian's cannot absorb "sophisticated" Russian technology, we are successfully maintaining Type 209/1500 submarines in India and recently upgraded them to fire US Harpoon missiles.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 03 Jul 2018 16:33

tsarkar wrote:
dinesha wrote:Make in India to go to Russia? Government to take call on Rs 2,400-crore submarine plan
By Manu Pubby
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 834783.cms


Paging Philip & Austin, this is one of the reasons why Indian political leadership, ministry bureaucrats and armed forces are dissatisfied with Russia. India is the largest export customer of Type 877 EKM submarines yet for refits we've to send them all the way to Russia. OEM withholds technology and information. These are the only ships IN has to send overseas for refit. Every other ship is maintained in India. This perfidy is not in the right spirit of partnership.

Before you cite the incorrect and humiliating view that Indian's cannot absorb "sophisticated" Russian technology, we are successfully maintaining Type 209/1500 submarines in India and recently upgraded them to fire US Harpoon missiles.


We are forever kept on a short leash in these russkie “ToT” while Korea and Turkey get full technology and knowledge transfers including the right to EXPORT in theirs with the West.

So nothing new here. As far as the Kilos are concerned those are legacy spilled milk. Let the Russians upgrade those so the Navy can have them back in quick turnaround. We just need to learn our lesson for future projects. Us canceling the FGFA meant that we finally did learn.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby pankajs » 03 Jul 2018 16:58

^
Agree. Let this one through.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Austin » 03 Jul 2018 17:33

tsarkar wrote:
dinesha wrote:Make in India to go to Russia? Government to take call on Rs 2,400-crore submarine plan
By Manu Pubby
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 834783.cms


Paging Philip & Austin, this is one of the reasons why Indian political leadership, ministry bureaucrats and armed forces are dissatisfied with Russia. India is the largest export customer of Type 877 EKM submarines yet for refits we've to send them all the way to Russia. OEM withholds technology and information. These are the only ships IN has to send overseas for refit. Every other ship is maintained in India. This perfidy is not in the right spirit of partnership.

Before you cite the incorrect and humiliating view that Indian's cannot absorb "sophisticated" Russian technology, we are successfully maintaining Type 209/1500 submarines in India and recently upgraded them to fire US Harpoon missiles.


The type 209 upgrade were limited to few things and it took MDl donkey years to do it inspire of the fact they did build the last 2 at mdl yards but lost all the skill set and staff in 90s, most of the time t209 were not operational

The kilo upgrade is very comprehensive and Russian yards just do it in 3 years if they give to mdl they will take thrice the time and will make most sub fleet inoperatiobal.

Looks how mdl screwed even scoroene program with French helping hand it was to be delivered in 2012 and 6 years later it did that.

Leave to mdl they will make Chinese yards looks the most efficient in the world making 50% of the tonnage of ship the Chinese make

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby dinesha » 03 Jul 2018 18:14

India to trial indigenous Sarang ESM on Ka-31
http://alert5.com/2018/07/03/india-to-t ... -on-ka-31/

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 04 Jul 2018 02:54

Sub- Harpoon is vastly inferior to Klub.Look, the latest Kilo variants are far differenr subs internally than legack EKMs.New screw.Better and quieter engines, new anechoic coating/tiles, better scopes, sresors, combat system. New torpedoes too.The major desi component is the sonar.

There was no TOT agreement for Kilos, a straightforward buy. Has the US given us TOT for P-8Is whatever? The French on Rafales or even M2Ks whose upgrade is nowhere complete at $50M a pop with HAL wanting more moolah for labour! So don't p* ss on Russia unfairly. .HSL took 8 years to refit a Kilo.
Russia build a new Kilo 636.6 in just 2 years! They're building 6 new ones for the Pacific fleet 2 being delivered, 6 delivered in record time for Vietnam for just $300M a sub, half the price of a Scorpene.

MDL's record at Scorpene building is marvellous too.5 years behind schedule and huge cost overruns.The Kilos we sent to Russia for upgrades were delivered on time and within budget.With a cash- strapped IN and MOD, the risk of HSL doing the biz and on time is why the MOD may be considering sending the last Kilos to Russia.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby tsarkar » 04 Jul 2018 12:33

Austin wrote:The type 209 upgrade were limited to few things

On what basis do you make that statement? Type 209 received new sonars, upgraded CMS, new periscopes, EO systems & ESM systems. Type 877 too received new sonar (USHUS), upgraded CMS, DRDO Porpoise ESM. In what way was Type 209 upgrade less than Type 877? Please be specific on the limitations

Austin wrote:it took MDl donkey years to do it

Unsubstantiated falsehood. MDL upgraded Type 209 in much lesser timeframes than it takes to upgrade Type 877 whether in Russia or India. Do provide facts supporting your statement that MDL took ages to upgrade Type 209


Austin wrote:most of the time t209 were not operational

Completely unsubstantiated falsehood. Do provide facts supporting your statement that most of the time t209 were not operational

Russian yards just do it in 3 years

:eek:

The kilo upgrade is very comprehensive and Russian yards just do it in 3 years if they give to mdl they will take thrice the time and will make most sub fleet inoperatiobal.

Personally I am appalled that you find false fault with your own countrymen to defend your favourite supplier - when the same countrymen have upgraded superior German submarines multiple times on time within budget.

Philip wrote:Sub- Harpoon is vastly inferior to Klub.


https://www.livefistdefence.com/2008/08 ... d-ins.html

The overhaul was delayed for six months due to the unacceptable performance of its new SS-N-27 Club-S cruise missiles. In six consecutive pre-delivery test firings in late 2007, the Club missiles failed to find their targets and India refused to accept the delivery until the problems had been resolved.


The error was tracked to faulty INS system in submarine's CMS that fed wrong coordinates to the missile.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/jan/11sub.htm

On the heels of the deadlock over the pricing of Russian aircraft carrier Gorshkov, India has refused to take delivery of the latest submarine INS Sindhuvijay from Russia, saying its cruise missile had not performed up to parameters.

The Navy refused to take delivery of the Sindhuvijay, which completed refit at a shipyard near St Petersburg, after its missiles failed to find their targets in six consecutive test firings, the India Today reported.

"The 50-man crew sent to Russia to sail back with the submarine is set to return to India, with the Naval brass taking a stern line by asking the shipyard to rectify the problem, before it takes delivery of the sub," the magazine said.

The land attack cruise missile flies over 300 km and delivers a 400 kg warhead to its target with pinpoint accuracy.

Naval officials said it would take another year to rectify the defects and prove it in firing trials.

In a contract signed in 2001, India had sent ten Kilo class submarines to Russia for upgradation to make them capable of firing the Klub class land attack cruise missiles.

Sindhuvijay was only the second Indian submarine to be fitted with land attack variants of the missiles. India had purchased 28 Klub class missiles, worth Rs 844 crores, from Russia in 2006. Anti-ship variants of the missiles failed in repeated test firings in Indian waters.

India and Russia had a similar spat, over the delivery of the upgraded IL-38 maritime reconnaissance aircraft, when the Navy complained that its dragon suites were not working up to the parameters.

The deliveries were only taken after Russia rectified the suites.


Just because French are equally dishonest in ToT doesn't absolve the Russians.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Austin » 04 Jul 2018 14:47

IN did an internal assesment when doing the Kilo upgrade , they found that doing the upgrade at OEM not only turns out to be cheaper but also faster , Reason they are sent there multiple times for upgrade.

Now they are planning to upgrade at Vizag if what they plan is true https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 479567.cms

Regarding T209 upgrade I heard it from horses mouth , out of the 4 half were non-operational hence the navy rushed to upgrade the kilos and wanted it done as quickly as possible. Also from Submariners in IN they said the Kilo beat the T209 most of the times in their internal duel.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby tsarkar » 04 Jul 2018 15:28

Austin wrote:Regarding T209 upgrade I heard it from horses mouth , out of the 4 half were non-operational hence the navy rushed to upgrade the kilos and wanted it done as quickly as possible. Also from Submariners in IN they said the Kilo beat the T209 most of the times in their internal duel.

That is not correct. Type 209, despite being older than Type 877 have a sterling performance record. No CAG audit ever pulled up Type 209 maintenance or performance issues unlike other equipment. And where did submariners say Type 877 beat Type 209? Unless you have hard facts substantiating, its just your word.

And its not about the products - its about the attitude of not allowing / supporting maintenance locally.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Austin » 04 Jul 2018 15:41

I have heard it from more than one submariner and even top ranked officer who has served on both submarines that Kilo has been winning most of the duel between these two , not that T209 is a bad sub but Kilos are better.

The IN is quite on T209 due to reasons of secrecy for some part it is not the navys fault because post HDW bribery scandal there has been impact on procurement of spares , upgrade etc and the decision to build more sub indginously also got impacted ....when Scorpene comes in numbers T209 would be the first one to get decommisioned.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby tsarkar » 04 Jul 2018 18:48

Austin wrote:when Scorpene comes in numbers T209 would be the first one to get decommisioned.

While I disagree with your post, lets have a gentleman's wager on what gets decommissioned first, Type 209 or Type 877. I leave the choice of drink to you, whether Whiskey or Beer.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Austin » 04 Jul 2018 23:32

This is what our ex VAdm think about Indian SY

VAdm Jaggi Bedi(Rtd) https://twitter.com/JaggiBedi/status/10 ... 1312752640


@JaggiBedi
Follow Follow @JaggiBedi
More
Replying to @CavasShips @AndrewSErickson
@nsitharaman @arunp2810 @theUdayB @subnut This is a clear wake up call for the maritime fraternity.Indian Navy crying for series construction of ships and S/Ms but no headway. PSUs unable to deliver and more importantly Govt coffers appear empty and total lack of Political will.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby VKumar » 04 Jul 2018 23:44

Most importantly does Government have money to spare? Even to pay OROP they are struggling.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 05 Jul 2018 03:45

A Kilo bested a USN LA class SSN in exercises not too long ago.A PLAN Kilo did too some time ago. The "black hole" is much feared by the USN why the RuN is delivrring 6 for its Pacific fleet, has used Kilos firing Kalibir missiles in Syria and is also beefing up its Black Sea/ Meditt. fleet with Kilos.The 2000km range of the Kalibir is infinitely superior to the sub- Harpoon on the U-boats UGM-84,which have a range of just around 140 +kms. Even the Klub varaint conforming to MTCR parameters has a range of upto 300km with a supersonic terminal homing warhead.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chetak » 05 Jul 2018 03:59

Philip wrote:A Kilo bested a USN LA class SSN in exercises not too long ago.A PLAN Kilo did too some time ago. The "black hole" is much feared by the USN why the RuN is delivrring 6 for its Pacific fleet, has used Kilos firing Kalibir missiles in Syria and is also beefing up its Black Sea/ Meditt. fleet with Kilos.The 2000km range of the Kalibir is infinitely superior to the sub- Harpoon on the U-boats UGM-84,which have a range of just around 140 +kms. Even the Klub varaint conforming to MTCR parameters has a range of upto 300km with a supersonic terminal homing warhead.


The IN was never keen to expose the KILOs to the USN despite numerous requests and great pressure by the amerikis for the IN to use them in joint exercises.

Hoping this policy has not changed.

We should keep some secrets up our sleeve.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Austin » 05 Jul 2018 09:40

VKumar wrote:Most importantly does Government have money to spare? Even to pay OROP they are struggling.


The Government has the money but in an election year its priorities and direction are different. IN get the lower % of the budget among 3 service so it has to shape up accordingly

IN is equally responsible for their mess , The NHQ does not know where the emphasis is get more MCVC , Frigates/Corvettes , ASW assets etc or spend money on 60K T AC and ordering 57 Aircraft from abroad which would bankrupt IN capex for many years to come.

Once the IN gets its priorities right and realises what its priorities are then MOD can clear those.

Just because VAdm JAggi saw those Chinese ship building capability he panicked tweet into blaming the PSU and MOD fair enough but IN is equally responsible for the mess it is in , They need to get used to Amul Butter than keep dreaming of Kraft Cheese

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby tsarkar » 05 Jul 2018 10:20

Philip wrote:A Kilo bested a USN LA class SSN in exercises not too long ago.

Very bad example.

In all exercises in boxed areas, DE submarines will win hands down. Australian and Swedish submarines and numerous other submarines operating on electric batteries have defeated nuclear submarines whose pumps must operate to circulate reactor coolant.

The exercise areas was boxed in all cases. In open areas, a nuclear submarine using its high speed can use its active sonar to locate slower DE submarine, loosen a salvo and escape at high speed outrunning any torpedoes launch.

An IAF Mystere shot down a Pakistani Starfighter in 1965 and a Pakistani Sabre shot down an Indian MiG-21 in 1971.

Because supersonic interceptors like MiG-21 and Starfighters were designed at approach at high speed, make a gun/missile run and egress. They cannot dogfight with their small wings with high loading. The moment they get into a dogfight with smaller nimbler fighter, they will be outmaneuvered and shot down.

A motorcycle in a small crowded lane can run circles around a sedan. On a 8 lane freeway, the sedan can use its higher speed to outrun the motorcycle.

A tank in open area can mow down infantry like grass. In congested areas, a kid can drop a Molotov Cocktail on a tank to kill it.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 05 Jul 2018 10:33

Nice analogy! The IN should aim for a balanced fleet and plug gaps which are showing glaringly such as MCM vessels, subs and ASW helos.Too much of interaction with the USN and their supercarriers has given them grandiose ideas of operating 3 CBGs with a large third CV as said above which will beggar the service.The IN should and happily is with the full support of the GOI taking all measures to turn the ANC into our forward "fortress", from which all IN assets will be able to operate from, especially as I've said before LRMP birds , along with Backfires which must be an acquisition operating at least from the mainland. The shortage of subs and ASW helos is the most acute and the helos given top priority slong with the MCMVs.Here, one requires at least 16 to 24 vessels and one should also explore an outright purchase of some, rest built locally to plug the gap asap.We bought auxiliaries like fleel tankers, etc. as well from abroad and the same strategy adopted here as our yards are full building our major surface fleet warships, subs, IAC-1 and in future the 4 amphibs.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby ks_sachin » 05 Jul 2018 10:35

Phillip respond to tsarkar.

Dont change the topic!!

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Kersi » 05 Jul 2018 10:44

Philip wrote:A Kilo bested a USN LA class SSN in exercises not too long ago.A PLAN Kilo did too some time ago. The "black hole" is much feared by the USN why the RuN is delivrring 6 for its Pacific fleet, has used Kilos firing Kalibir missiles in Syria and is also beefing up its Black Sea/ Meditt. fleet with Kilos.The 2000km range of the Kalibir is infinitely superior to the sub- Harpoon on the U-boats UGM-84,which have a range of just around 140 +kms. Even the Klub varaint conforming to MTCR parameters has a range of upto 300km with a supersonic terminal homing warhead.


Will Russia give us the 200 km Kaliber missiles and modify our Kilos to fire them ? If not why discuss this Kaliber issue from time to time !!

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Kersi » 05 Jul 2018 10:46

Is the a discussion on Indian Navy or a Warsaw Pact vs NATO / US verbal duel ?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Pratyush » 05 Jul 2018 12:19

Let's just agree that Russia rocks and every body else sucks.

That being the case, Indian Navy should only buy Russian and shutdown domestic design capacity.

Only building Russian maal in Indian yards under licence.

If any problems occur, it will always be the fault of the Indian yards for not being able to absorb technology.

Or the failure of illetrate Indian personnel.

It will never be the fault of Russian equipment or design.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 06 Jul 2018 08:52

With our membership of the MTCR, its rules no longer restricting us, there is nothinv to stop us from requesting Kalibir.However we're trying to perfect Nirbhay our desi equiv.As far as BMos is concerned, we're well on our way to extending its range.

Subs.No one is advocating acquiring only Ru. subs.I've advocated setting up a line for U- boats in a G-2-G deal replacing the Scorpene line along with another for the best Ru. conventional boat available.German subs at MDL and Ru at L&T whoever in the pvt. sector.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby dinesha » 06 Jul 2018 11:41

BHEL to partner Ukraine's Zorya for overhaul of warship turbines
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 019_1.html

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Austin » 06 Jul 2018 15:00

Full report here http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2018/07/ ... ne-in.html

Should be great for Navy as half of IN capital ships run on these engines , will improve turn around time , reduce cost and dependency in Ukraine

They should think about buying the engine IP and building the Zorya engines in India under lic production

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Pratyush » 06 Jul 2018 15:02

Austin wrote:Full report here http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2018/07/ ... ne-in.html


They should think about buying the engine IP and building the Zorya engines in India under lic production



I thought BHEL already does that. Or which has turbine do they built.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Kersi » 06 Jul 2018 15:05

Pratyush wrote:
Austin wrote:Full report here http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2018/07/ ... ne-in.html


They should think about buying the engine IP and building the Zorya engines in India under lic production



I thought BHEL already does that. Or which has turbine do they built.


I think LM 2500 from GE

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Pratyush » 06 Jul 2018 15:12

I recall the Shivalik getting delayed as a result of Obama having a review of all American defence relations when he came to power. And it's engines being with held by Americans.

That I guess rules out the lm 2500.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Kakarat » 06 Jul 2018 15:30

HAL license builds the LM2500 and not BHEL

http://hal-india.co.in/IMGT%20Division% ... ore/M__100

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Pratyush » 06 Jul 2018 15:34

Then which GT are built by BHEL for naval application.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby dinesh_kimar » 06 Jul 2018 16:54

LM 2500 isn't built in India. Only Testing and maybe limited Sub-Assembly ( no full Assembly, no production). The main action in HAL seems to be Adour (Hawk assy and maintenance/ overhaul on same line) and the various Turbomecca engines.

BHEL build a 3.5 MW gas turbine for power plant application.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 06 Jul 2018 16:58

Pratyush wrote:I recall the Shivalik getting delayed as a result of Obama having a review of all American defence relations when he came to power. And it's engines being with held by Americans.

That I guess rules out the lm 2500.

It was delayed by a couple months because of that and it was GE fault for not getting that approval head of time. The main delay with Shivalik was due to availability of Steel and design changes.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby maz » 06 Jul 2018 19:19

P15 Delhi class destroyers in MLU - http://www.janes.com/article/81566/indian-navy-destroyer-ins-delhi-receives-extensive-combat-systems-makeover-during-mlu

I wonder if the IN will decide to bring all three P15 hulls to the same weapon and sensor configuration after their MLU refits?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby maz » 06 Jul 2018 19:33

I think a more nuanced discussion regarding the pros and cons of each submarine type is required instead of saying that one type is "better" than he other. What are the metrics used to determine one is better or not? I am guessing the Type 209 have adv. that the EMS lack ad vice versa. And a lot depends on the intended operational use/mission.

What IS certain is that the IN should seriously consider restarting the Type 209 line - suitably updated with state of the art combat systems and hull equipment. Production could be at MDL and L&T for example. Imagine this scenario: within 10 years, there could be many hulls in service. 12-16 hulls is a distinct possibility within 10 years. They are relatively cheap, can fire missiles and best of all, can be mass produced locally. TKMS will only be too glad to sell kits and the other bits.

The deterrent power of this many boats is great. and it is very cost effective.


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