Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

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Singha
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 06 Sep 2018 08:58

lack of working capital, lack of easy loans with govt backing and lack of speedy commercially paid work.
they must get commercial work or else function as a govt run yard. its chicken egg problem - they are small in size and cannot compete with the speed and scale of the far east shipyards.

in contrast air india continues to fly high on our tax payer annual bailouts.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby tsarkar » 06 Sep 2018 09:37

Both Pipavav (private) and Alcock (State Govt) didnt get institutional support from Indian Navy. Design help from DND would have greatly helped them. Instead they were treated as a vendor.

L&T has invested heavily and built up a strong bench strength of architects. They recruit a lot of ex Naval engineers and this has enabled them to successfully deliver.

MDL, GRSE, GSL, CSL, HSL and L&T recruit a lot of ex-naval engineers and ex-MoD IAS officers. Most of these ex-Rear Admirals/Commodores/Captains/Commanders are able to either influence their juniors occupying their former positions or atleast get insight into what the Navy wants. This enables them to avoid change requests and quicker acceptance.

The older shipyards are also able to politically stall IN support to the newer shipyards.

I know for a fact that MDL from Managing Director to Worker's Union actively trying to sabotage L&T & Pipavav. L&T is too well entrenched and builds nuclear submarine hulls that MDL doesnt have technology, so are insulated. Pipavav isnt and hence suffers. All the other yards are suffering as well.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 06 Sep 2018 10:02

tsarkar wrote:Both Pipavav (private) and Alcock (State Govt) didnt get institutional support from Indian Navy. Design help from DND would have greatly helped them. Instead they were treated as a vendor.

L&T has invested heavily and built up a strong bench strength of architects. They recruit a lot of ex Naval engineers and this has enabled them to successfully deliver.

MDL, GRSE, GSL, CSL, HSL and L&T recruit a lot of ex-naval engineers and ex-MoD IAS officers. Most of these ex-Rear Admirals/Commodores/Captains/Commanders are able to either influence their juniors occupying their former positions or atleast get insight into what the Navy wants. This enables them to avoid change requests and quicker acceptance.

The older shipyards are also able to politically stall IN support to the newer shipyards.

I know for a fact that MDL from Managing Director to Worker's Union actively trying to sabotage L&T & Pipavav. L&T is too well entrenched and builds nuclear submarine hulls that MDL doesnt have technology, so are insulated. Pipavav isnt and hence suffers. All the other yards are suffering as well.


That is horrible, Tsarkar ji. And I worry for L&T if that is the case. They are safe currently with the nuclear subs but now they seem vulnerable too if the DPSU docks like MDL and their connections are out for them. A single misstep seems threatening now.

Sometimes, for a Rakshak’s peace of mind, it is better not to know this stuff.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby tsarkar » 06 Sep 2018 10:23

^^ We Indians are a very myopic and insecure people and whether services, R&D or Industry, job security and benefits underlie decisions rather than the greater good for the nation. Occasionally we get a APJ Abdul Kalam or a Sunderji or Maneckshaw but overall myopia remains. Indeed sad and depressing. Happens across all sectors. I can give examples in Automobile, Banking, Airline & IT sectors. Like all airlines ganging up to prevent Air Asia from setting up Air Asia India.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby rajsunder » 07 Sep 2018 02:45

nam wrote:
Gagan wrote:
These two ships are fitting out and are scheduled to be commissioned this year, rest by 2020.
The latest news is that Chota Bhai has resigned as the head of this company - so maybe another round of delays


Yeah, the last I read when the first two ships were floated, that the remaining ones would be floated this year.Also the first two were promised delivery by mid this year. Nothing happened.

The company has a large NPA as well. When they have orders they cannot deliver. Just L&T doing good does not help, as MoD will never get in to single vendor situation.

GoI should alteast share some of our ship designs with L&T, so that they can try for export orders. PSU shipyard should be asked to sub-contractor some parts from private shipyard.

The whole mess is killing our only hope of speeding up ship building.

PSU shipyards are playing dirty. I read that they are quoting ridiculous rates(about 120% of the cost of material and private ones quoting at 170% of cost of material) for building Navy ships which cannot be done by a private yeard. These PSU's do not worry about profit or loss. They know that the govt will provide them money if they make a loss.

So government should bring in a level playing field before they can dream of a private ship yard building a capital ship for Indian Navy.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby nam » 07 Sep 2018 17:02

rajsunder wrote:PSU shipyards are playing dirty. I read that they are quoting ridiculous rates(about 120% of the cost of material and private ones quoting at 170% of cost of material) for building Navy ships which cannot be done by a private yeard. These PSU's do not worry about profit or loss. They know that the govt will provide them money if they make a loss.

So government should bring in a level playing field before they can dream of a private ship yard building a capital ship for Indian Navy.


:D Ofcourse they are playing dirty. They will quote zero for building a destroyer, if that was allowed.

If the client is my underwriter of my risk... Even i will do it for free.

Why would GoI bring a level playing field?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chetak » 07 Sep 2018 22:57

things seem to be looking up for vice adms in the IN, especially after the very recent SC ruling on art 377

The hoary old adage :

The rear of the rear admiral is not merely the vice of the vice admiral anymore, it is now his legal right. :wink:

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby rajsunder » 08 Sep 2018 00:43

nam wrote:
rajsunder wrote:PSU shipyards are playing dirty. I read that they are quoting ridiculous rates(about 120% of the cost of material and private ones quoting at 170% of cost of material) for building Navy ships which cannot be done by a private yeard. These PSU's do not worry about profit or loss. They know that the govt will provide them money if they make a loss.

So government should bring in a level playing field before they can dream of a private ship yard building a capital ship for Indian Navy.


:D Ofcourse they are playing dirty. They will quote zero for building a destroyer, if that was allowed.

If the client is my underwriter of my risk... Even i will do it for free.

Why would GoI bring a level playing field?


Because In deserves better, if japan can do a build of 1 ton of displacement with about 70-80 an hours, we should not take 10 times that amount of man hours to do the same work.
If we have to cut it down and bring it to the level of japaneese ship building, we need private shipyards.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby SaiK » 12 Sep 2018 22:43

https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/scien ... 929012.ece
how vulnerable this would be to sub-surface weapons?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 16 Sep 2018 09:12

ins sahyadri at ex kakadu off australia
Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby ks_sachin » 16 Sep 2018 12:27

Singha wrote:ins sahyadri at ex kakadu off australia
Image

I would love the number of your personal ophthalmologist Singha!!!!

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 16 Sep 2018 17:21

P-75I getting kick-started by the MOD with a Sept..
meeting due to expedite the process.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby AdityaM » 17 Sep 2018 00:55

Indian Navy's Information management and analysis centre (IMAC) at Gurgaon.

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 52672?s=21

Image

Image


How do they track all those ships. Major Ships are tracked internationally like airplanes?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rahul M » 17 Sep 2018 08:34

^^^ AIS.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby wig » 22 Sep 2018 14:25

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/newsindi ... spartandhp


Navy sends warship to rescue injured officer Abhilash Tomy drifting in Indian Ocean

INS Satpura to rescue navy officer Abhilash Tomy who is severely injured and is battling waves on a boat on the high seas in southern Indian Ocean.
excerpted
His yacht was caught in extremely rough weather. He sent a distress signal on Friday evening conveying that the mast of his yacht had broken. He said that he had suffered a severe back injury and couldn't get up. He is approximately 1,900 nautical miles away from Perth in Australia.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby SNaik » 22 Sep 2018 14:41

11356 advanced krivak class make in india
https://ibb.co/cMqWhU
Image doesn't show up, you'll have to follow the link

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chetak » 23 Sep 2018 11:17

twitter

"We will find your man". Rear Admiral Jonathan Mead, Commander, Australian Fleet, sent this message out some hours ago to his NDC batchmates from 2007. Absolutely heartening words reflecting the spirit of camaraderie uniting navies across the seas. @indiannavy @AusHCIndia


Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Manish_P » 23 Sep 2018 12:42

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/status/1043735016230940672

Sandeep
‏ @SandeepUnnithan
2h2 hours ago

Absolutely heartening news. @indiannavy P-8I tail number 323 flying out of Mauritius has made contact with Cdr #AbhilashTomy. He has responded by activating his EPIRB - Emergency Position Indicating Radio Beacon-- which can be turned on manually.


Update 1 hr ago

Sandeep
‏ @SandeepUnnithan
1h1 hour ago

Aircraft has made ‘visual’ contact with #AbhilashTomy. More info when P8-I lands in Mauritius.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Manish_P » 23 Sep 2018 13:27

This is the stuff our services personnel are made of!

Khoi Kuni?
‏ @joe_sabby

As INS Saputara races the odds to rescue @abhilashtomy a silent prayer for the Captain of the frigate who's father breathed his last today. The ship cannot be turned back, the Captain cannot be picked...there is a life to be saved @indiannavy @ShivAroor @nitingokhale

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 23 Sep 2018 15:04

Just a chetak not sh60 due to endless delays

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 23 Sep 2018 15:58

Image

Singha
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 23 Sep 2018 16:01

these roaring forties and furious fifties have very tall seas and high winds in IOR - use for 100s of years by sailboats looking to move faster.
clipper ship route from london to australia and back. winds blow west->east so they took the chile route back to london...the dreaded waters and icy storms of cape horn.

Image

our p8 must have flown south east from mauritius at the extreme of its endurance to locate.

the aussies and chileans know these treacherous waters well

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby pankajs » 23 Sep 2018 20:13

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 835654.cms
India clears way for $2.2-billion frigates deal with Russia
The agreement, which will allow India to procure from Russia four new warships for the Navy, will be signed during a summit between President Vladimir Putin and Prime Minister Narendra Modi in the Capital in October. Efforts are on to add the finishing touches to the contours of the deal.

The long-pending deal, to procure Project 11356 or advanced Talwar-class frigates, will involve building two of the ships at the Goa Shipyard, while the rest will be bought directly from Russia’s Yantar shipyard.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 23 Sep 2018 20:27

IBNLIVE

NEW DELHI: An Indian Navy officer who was stranded in the Indian Ocean near Australia after being injured while taking part in a sailing race will be rescued within the next 16 hours by a French vessel, the Defence Ministry said on Sunday.

--
the french do have a scientific outpost there in kerguelen islands which they conveniently grabbed.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Manish_P » 23 Sep 2018 21:57

Singha wrote:the french do have a scientific outpost there in kerguelen islands which they conveniently grabbed.


And the french patrol/scientific vessel 'Osiris' is apparently a grabbed Somalian pirate mother ship. Don't know who the somalians grabbed it from...

Source - Sandeep Unnithan on twitter

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 23 Sep 2018 22:11

the only scraps of islands in that region. at 100km across the french occupied island is quite big - bigger than mauritius
https://www.google.com/maps/place/La+R% ... 55.8342893

some shots from the sea resemble a vast and terrible beast of a land, like kong skull island

other than a few scraps for aussies, the french 'own' all lands there crozet, kerguelen, amsterdam...

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby vivekmehta » 23 Sep 2018 23:36

pankajs wrote:https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/india-clears-way-for-2-2-billion-frigates-deal-with-russia/articleshow/65835654.cms
India clears way for $2.2-billion frigates deal with Russia
The agreement, which will allow India to procure from Russia four new warships for the Navy, will be signed during a summit between President Vladimir Putin and Prime Minister Narendra Modi in the Capital in October. Efforts are on to add the finishing touches to the contours of the deal.

The long-pending deal, to procure Project 11356 or advanced Talwar-class frigates, will involve building two of the ships at the Goa Shipyard, while the rest will be bought directly from Russia’s Yantar shipyard.

Order of 4 is a break away from traditional 3. Is it only for 2+2 or in future also we can expect to see batch size of 4 in general.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Gagan » 24 Sep 2018 07:51

This frigate order will run afoul of the US's CAATSA sanctions, as is the S-400 deal
The US just imposed sanctions of the Chinese for ordering more S-400 missiles and purchase of Su-35

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Pratyush » 24 Sep 2018 10:57

I would have preferred the Shivalik in its original configuration to this purchase.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Kakarat » 24 Sep 2018 13:28

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/10 ... 9533330432

BREAKING: @AbhilashTomy has been rescued safely.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby JTull » 24 Sep 2018 13:30

Gagan wrote:This frigate order will run afoul of the US's CAATSA sanctions, as is the S-400 deal
The US just imposed sanctions of the Chinese for ordering more S-400 missiles and purchase of Su-35


I am really hoping that they apply sanctions. This will make many things clear.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby ks_sachin » 24 Sep 2018 13:58

Pratyush wrote:I would have preferred the Shivalik in its original configuration to this purchase.

How so Pratyush? I am not that attuned to things maritime so curious.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Pratyush » 24 Sep 2018 14:27

Simple, it is an Indian design. So the upgrade path is relatively clear for the ship. All the ships built in Indian yard, with Indian materials will result in most or the spend in India.

But with this deal 2 ships are ready made and 2 will be Indian made. Best case only 50 %of the expenditure will be in India for this deal.

If the imported ship has the be upgraded. We have to go the Russians hat in hand and pay through our nose for it.

The worst part is that no IP is owned by us.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby tsarkar » 24 Sep 2018 14:32

Abhilash Tomy rescued by French Fisheries Patrol Vessel Osiris that is now proceeding to rescue Irishman Gregor MaGuckin. Special effort by P8I 323 that flew from Arakonnam staging via Mauritius to Abhilash's location.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby tsarkar » 24 Sep 2018 14:36

Manish_P wrote:
Singha wrote:the french do have a scientific outpost there in kerguelen islands which they conveniently grabbed.


And the french patrol/scientific vessel 'Osiris' is apparently a grabbed Somalian pirate mother ship. Don't know who the somalians grabbed it from...

Source - Sandeep Unnithan on twitter


It was Seychelles Lobster Vessel impounded by the French for illegally fishing in its Indian Ocean territories. Island grabbing is an important activity to get EEZ for fishing and petroleum drilling.

And Panditji the great gave away Cocos Island to Burma :(

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Singha » 24 Sep 2018 16:30

per reports Cmdr Tomy is trapped in his bunk by bed injury either fulltime or partially. the Osiris ship sent over a small boat with aid. they might tow him 180km to amsterdam island where a french scientific station has a doctor, and from there INS satpura will take to mauritius for medical aid.

the australian frigate might return to perth.

this was a good gesture by the french and aussies. big powers take care of their own no matter 1 or 1000, and other powers respect that mutually.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Manish_P » 24 Sep 2018 17:00

tsarkar wrote:
It was Seychelles Lobster Vessel impounded by the French for illegally fishing in its Indian Ocean territories. Island grabbing is an important activity to get EEZ for fishing and petroleum drilling.


Noted, Sir

tsarkar wrote:And Panditji the great gave away Cocos Island to Burma :(


Is there a full list, of all that he gave away (Indian territory/resources), available anywhere ?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 24 Sep 2018 18:03

Pratyush wrote:Simple, it is an Indian design. So the upgrade path is relatively clear for the ship. All the ships built in Indian yard, with Indian materials will result in most or the spend in India.

But with this deal 2 ships are ready made and 2 will be Indian made. Best case only 50 %of the expenditure will be in India for this deal.

If the imported ship has the be upgraded. We have to go the Russians hat in hand and pay through our nose for it.

The worst part is that no IP is owned by us.

And keep in mind Talwar is dated design, Shivalik which in many ways a decade ahead of Talwar in terms of design features (mast, superstructure, propulsion etc) was rejected in favor of P-17A and as being too expensive. I have bad feeling about this venture, Goa has no experience building anything this big and this design has not been exported. I would not be surprised if all said and done after delays and issues this ends up costing more than P-15Bs.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby ashthor » 24 Sep 2018 18:07

Is there a full list, of all that he gave away (Indian territory/resources), available anywhere ?

Apart from the offer of gwadar port, read somewhere that even nepal had offered to join in.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Gagan » 24 Sep 2018 19:01

GSL has capacity to build ships upto 3000 tons.
They have built survey ships, small oiltankers and deep sea fishing boats


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