Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Manish_P » 15 May 2020 23:28

Strange that the same axiom doesn't carry over to the Air forces. Most fighter jocks would like their aircraft to carry as many AAMs as possible

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 16 May 2020 00:45

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/126 ... 57381?s=20 ----> Chinese Navy Type-55: 112 VLS
Indian Navy Kolkata/Visakhapatnam Class: 48 (VLS+UVLM)
One thing I can't understand why Indian Navy ships carry less than Chinese counterpart. Meanwhile, the Arleigh Burke carries 96 VLS.


That’s because of these reasons:
- Brahmos is big, each UVLS with Brahmos weights as much as 2.5 Mk 41 VLS cell armed with Tomahawk.
- RBU 6000 take up a lot of space and require deck penetration. They essentially take up as much space as a 8 Brahmos UVLS cells.
- Lack of standardized VLS system means precious space is wasted due to having to maintain two different launchers for Barak-8 and Brahmos (make it 3 once SR SAM comes into picture)

A vessel like Kolkata can easily carry 48-64 Mk 41 cells in place of Barak-8, Brahmos and RBU-6000 if you compare apples to apples.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby nachiket » 16 May 2020 01:06

John wrote:- RBU 6000 take up a lot of space and require deck penetration. They essentially take up as much space as a 8 Brahmos UVLS cells.

I'm sure they adversely affect the stealth characteristics of the vessel as well. Is there no alternative to the RBU's? These are supposed to be hard-kill anti-toprpedo weapons. Other navies including the USN and the PLAN don't seem to have a need for it. What do they use for actively defending against torpedoes (beyond noisemakers/countermeasures etc.)? There has to be a way for the IN to get rid of these RBU's and reclaim the precious real-estate they use up.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby titash » 16 May 2020 01:39

nachiket wrote:
John wrote:- RBU 6000 take up a lot of space and require deck penetration. They essentially take up as much space as a 8 Brahmos UVLS cells.

I'm sure they adversely affect the stealth characteristics of the vessel as well. Is there no alternative to the RBU's? These are supposed to be hard-kill anti-toprpedo weapons. Other navies including the USN and the PLAN don't seem to have a need for it. What do they use for actively defending against torpedoes (beyond noisemakers/countermeasures etc.)? There has to be a way for the IN to get rid of these RBU's and reclaim the precious real-estate they use up.


ASW mortars are a very relevant weapon system even today. Just like a fighter's gun.

1) ASW mortars are low-complexity, cheap, rugged, reliable, available in a variety of sea states when helicopter support isn't
2) Torpedoes can be decoyed away, but there is no decoying away a contact fuzed mortar bomb or a depth charge
3) The RBU 6000's indigenous version (the IRL) is made locally by L&T and the rockets are made by OFB. Therefore they're easy to maintain in-house, and ammunition can be liberally expended
4) RBU 6000 derivatives can be used against incoming heavyweight torpedoes (maybe even against divers?) as a hard-kill measure
5) Like the Baltic sea, surface sonar conditions aren't that great in the shallow Arabian sea. Effective sonar and HWT/LWT ranges may very well overlap with ASW mortars
6) It's also a fallacy that hidden Pakistani submarines will go after every Indian warship using an Exocet or Harpoon or HWT. Perhaps it's just trying to hide and stalk larger assets like Carriers, Tankers, etc. instead of giving away their position to the first frigate it comes across
7) They're used for amphibious fire support just like regular rocket launchers/mortars

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 16 May 2020 04:27

titash wrote:RBU 6000 derivatives can be used against incoming heavyweight torpedoes (maybe even against divers?) as a hard-kill measure

Yes it can be used torpedoes, it is one of few hard kill options out there against torpedo.

If we really wanted to fit another 32 Barak-8 we could have, I feel the armament is deliberate choice to maximum value for the cost, another two Barak-8 module would cost another 100 million+ where as Rbu-6000 are quite inexpensive.
Last edited by John on 16 May 2020 04:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby srai » 16 May 2020 04:28

John wrote:
Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/126 ... 57381?s=20 ----> Chinese Navy Type-55: 112 VLS
Indian Navy Kolkata/Visakhapatnam Class: 48 (VLS+UVLM)
One thing I can't understand why Indian Navy ships carry less than Chinese counterpart. Meanwhile, the Arleigh Burke carries 96 VLS.


That’s because of these reasons:
- Brahmos is big, each UVLS with Brahmos weights as much as 2.5 Mk 41 VLS cell armed with Tomahawk.
- RBU 6000 take up a lot of space and require deck penetration. They essentially take up as much space as a 8 Brahmos UVLS cells.
- Lack of standardized VLS system means precious space is wasted due to having to maintain two different launchers for Barak-8 and Brahmos (make it 3 once SR SAM comes into picture)

A vessel like Kolkata can easily carry 48-64 Mk 41 cells in place of Barak-8, Brahmos and RBU-6000 if you compare apples to apples.

Good points. If UVLS were to replace current silos, this is what it would be
  • 16 (instead of Brahmos silos front)
  • 16 (instead of Barak-8 silos front)
  • 16 (Instead of Barak-8 silos tear)
Total: 48 UVLS cells .... same number as RN Type-45 DDG.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 16 May 2020 04:30

Also don’t forget SRSAM is also supposed to be fitted on the P-15a/b vessels (not sure about P-17a). This would give another 32 missiles and Barak-8 cells can be fitted with Barak-8 ER.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Vivek K » 20 May 2020 08:05

May be old news but the historical photography of SBC Vizag has interesting shots of Arihant and her sisters. Google is taking almost monthly shots of the area.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 20 May 2020 11:10

I'm not so sure about the limited no. of SAMs aboard our DDGs and FFGs.All vessels will face saturated missile attack,sometimes coordinated using different assets like aircraft/ helos or subs too.
Secondly ,there is a limited active layered defence. A second QR SAM as secondary anti-missile defence at shorter ranges is a must,more manoeuvrable when the missile is in its terminal phase making rapid manouevres. Galtlings throwing up a wall of lead is the last ditch method. Various decoys are also used,from EW,missile seeker jamming ,to chaff,etc.

From the designs,there appears to meet to be extra space available for later upgrades,but these should be factored in from the start,installrd when required.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 20 May 2020 20:51

Philip wrote:I'm not so sure about the limited no. of SAMs aboard our DDGs and FFGs.All vessels will face saturated missile attack,sometimes coordinated using different assets like aircraft/ helos or subs too.
Secondly ,there is a limited active layered defence. A second QR SAM as secondary anti-missile defence at shorter ranges is a must,more manoeuvrable when the missile is in its terminal phase making rapid manouevres. Galtlings throwing up a wall of lead is the last ditch method. Various decoys are also used,from EW,missile seeker jamming ,to chaff,etc.

From the designs,there appears to meet to be extra space available for later upgrades,but these should be factored in from the start,installrd when required.


Cannot look at top down photo and say there is space, below deck some of space could be used for subsystems for UVLS, rbu6000, main gun and Barak-8. One of reasons if you mix different launchers you are wasting precious space because each launcher would require some space for all the plumbing and wiring making it hard to put different launchers close side by side.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby kit » 20 May 2020 22:03

srai wrote:
John wrote:
That’s because of these reasons:
- Brahmos is big, each UVLS with Brahmos weights as much as 2.5 Mk 41 VLS cell armed with Tomahawk.
- RBU 6000 take up a lot of space and require deck penetration. They essentially take up as much space as a 8 Brahmos UVLS cells.
- Lack of standardized VLS system means precious space is wasted due to having to maintain two different launchers for Barak-8 and Brahmos (make it 3 once SR SAM comes into picture)

A vessel like Kolkata can easily carry 48-64 Mk 41 cells in place of Barak-8, Brahmos and RBU-6000 if you compare apples to apples.

Good points. If UVLS were to replace current silos, this is what it would be
  • 16 (instead of Brahmos silos front)
  • 16 (instead of Barak-8 silos front)
  • 16 (Instead of Barak-8 silos tear)
Total: 48 UVLS cells .... same number as RN Type-45 DDG.



Wonder if the air launched version of Brahmos can be adapted to give same performance as ship launched one ?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 21 May 2020 03:34

kit wrote:Wonder if the air launched version of Brahmos can be adapted to give same performance as ship launched one ?

Without the larger booster the air launched Brahmos would not work when launched from ships.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 25 May 2020 04:58

The RuN is equipping all its surface combatants from corvettes of around 900t to Kirov class BCNs with a mix of Tsirkon hypersonic, Onix supersonic and Kalibir LRCMs.Corvettes to carry Kalibir and Onix,while FFGs onwards could carry a mix/ selection of the others.Since we are members of the MTCR,acquisition of Kalibir should be fast-forwarded until Nirbhay is perfected and commissioned.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 25 May 2020 09:37

Philip wrote:The RuN is equipping all its surface combatants from corvettes of around 900t to Kirov class BCNs with a mix of Tsirkon hypersonic, Onix supersonic and Kalibir LRCMs.Corvettes to carry Kalibir and Onix,while FFGs onwards could carry a mix/ selection of the others.Since we are members of the MTCR,acquisition of Kalibir should be fast-forwarded until Nirbhay is perfected and commissioned.


Kalibr was speculated to have been reportedly acquired for Kilo, as for surface combatants I have said before only Talwar and Shivalik can fire Klub highly unlikely we will acquire them just for those vessels.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Kartik » 12 Jun 2020 04:57

IN inaugurates complex to house submarine rescue system

Image

The Indian Navy (IN) inaugurated on 10 June a complex at its naval base in the Indian eastern port city of Visakhapatnam to accommodate one of its two submarine rescue systems acquired from UK-based subsea engineering and services provider JFD.

In a statement issued the same day the service said the complex has been fitted with “state-of-the-art facilities to store the DSRV [deep submergence rescue vehicle] assets in a ‘rescue-ready’ state”.

Each of the systems, which are intended to rescue the crew of distressed submarines off India’s eastern and western coasts, comprises a DSAR-650L free-swimming DSRV, a launch and recovery system (LARS), a Transfer Under Pressure (TUP) unit, an SMD Atom intervention remotely operated vehicle, and an EdgeTech 4200 series towed sidescan sonar.

..

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby lakshmanM » 12 Jun 2020 07:42

I asked Vice Admiral Arun Kumar Singh about RBU launches, he said
Those who have experience of conducting ASW ops in our tropical waters will appreciate the need of RBU 6000. I have commanded subs & a DDG (with RBU 6000).
and when I asked him to elaborate
Regret cannot elaborate as ASW is complex (in tropical waters with thermoclines, high salinity, high ambient-biologocal noise it is even more complex) & is a one yr specialist course & requires many yrs at sea.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby wig » 12 Jun 2020 10:36

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 798505.ece

Deep Submergence Rescue Vehicle Complex opened in Vizag
extracts
Equipped with the state-of-the-art facilities, the complex is designed to accommodate the newly inducted submarine rescue system and store the DSRV assets in the rescue-ready state. The DSRV system consists of a submarine rescue vessel, a remote operations vehicle and side scan sonar and associated equipment. It has diver decompression chambers and hyperbaric medical equipment to decompress submariners after being rescued from sunken submarines. It can be mobilised by air or road to facilitate submarine rescue operationseven at distant locations.



Our Navy has inducted two such systems which will provide rescue cover to submarines on the east and west coast of India.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby wig » 14 Jun 2020 10:21

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/t ... 2020-06-13

The enigmatic Amethyst The Navy reveals a hidden gem -- a model of a Soviet-built Cold War missile never seen before in public.
extracts
from the bridge of the destroyer INS Rajput, the crew saw a breathtaking sight. A giant white plume rose from the mirror-calm Bay of Bengal and a grey missile the size of a small airplane broke the surface and spread its wings, powerful rocket boosters firing it into a parabolic trajectory over the horizon. "It was awe-inspiring," said an officer on board the destroyer that day. "We had never seen anything like it."

It was sometime in mid-1988. The crew had witnessed the first launch of a submarine-fired cruise missile in Indian waters-- a P-70 'Amethyst' cruise missile fired from a nuclear powered attack submarine INS Chakra, a submarine taken on a three-year lease from the Soviet Union. The target that day, a derelict Petya class corvette, broke in two as the missile's warhead of half a ton of high-explosive smashed into it.

the origins of the amethyst
The Amethyst was an evolution of the P-15, a missile the navy had used to devastating effect in the 1971 Indo-Pakistan war. In less than half hour on December 4, three raiding Indian missile boats sank a Pakistani Naval destroyer, a minesweeper and a merchant ship, the largest use of ship-to-ship missiles in the history of naval warfare.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby NRao » 22 Jun 2020 04:26


Rakesh
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 22 Jun 2020 17:45

The former chief in question here is Admiral Arun Prakash (Retd)

How India Can Deter An Aggressive China: Former Indian Navy Chief Explains
https://www.huffingtonpost.in/entry/ind ... f846ab8703
22 June 2020

2. The US has called India “a pillar of our common vision for free and open Indo-Pacific”. Can the US be a reliable partner for India in the Indo-Pacific?

A. The phrase “common vision for a free and open Indo-Pacific” is somewhat vague and rhetorical. Many other Indo-Pacific nations could have the same vision. Each nation, however, must always act in its own national interest. Under the current Trump regime, US actions have been erratic and whimsical and it cannot be seen as a ‘reliable partner’.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 22 Jun 2020 18:46

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 19841?s=20 ----> INS Rajput in Vizag port, four Brahmos inclined launchers are visible. The Rajput Class is the IN's smallest destroyers in service (~5000 tons at full load). The upcoming Nilgiri Class frigates are much larger than the Rajput Class destroyers.

Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby basant » 26 Jun 2020 15:01

Tweets from Anatha Krishnan

Anantha Krishnan M
@writetake

ASW capability of @indiannavy received a major boost today with the conclusion of a contract for Advanced Torpedo Decoy System #Maareech capable of being fired from all frontline warships. 1/3

Release
1:50 PM · Jun 26, 2020·Twitter Web App

+

Developed by DRDO labs (NSTL and NPOL), #Maareech production will be undertaken by BEL. The prototype of this system installed onboard a nominated naval platform had successfully completed all user evaluation trials and demonstrated the features as per the NSQR.

+

Induction not only stands testimony to the joint resolve of the Indian Navy and DRDO towards indigenous development of def tech, but has also given a major fillip to the Make in India initiative and the country's resolve to become #Atmanirbhar in niche technology.


PS: Press release from PIB
Ministry of Defence

Navy Inducts Indigenously Developed Torpedo Decoy System
Posted On: 26 JUN 2020 1:53PM by PIB Delhi

Anti - Submarine Warfare capability of the Indian Navy has received a major boost today with the conclusion of a contract for Advanced Torpedo Decoy System Maareech capable of being fired from all frontline warships. Design & Development of this anti-torpedo decoy system has been undertaken indigenously DRDO labs (NSTL and NPOL). Bharat Electronics Limited, a Defence PSU, would undertake the production of this decoy system. The prototype of this system installed onboard a nominated naval platform had successfully completed all user evaluation trials and demonstrated the features as per the Naval Staff Qualification Requirements.

This induction not only stands testimony to the joint resolve of the Indian Navy and DRDO towards indigenous development of Defence technology, but has also given a major fillip to the Government's 'Make in India' initiative and the country's resolve to become 'Atmanirbhar' in niche technology.

ABB/SS/Nampi/VM/KA/DK/Savvy/ADA/MS

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby basant » 26 Jun 2020 15:30

Maareech Advanced Torpedo Defence System

Image

Image

Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 29 Jun 2020 04:49

Taking the many recent posts into these comments.
Yes,the RBUs are quite effective systems.Can also fire decoy rounds. However,in former Sov. era warships,the launchers were at the bows,not below the bridge as in our desi-built warships and Talwars. If you look at the new Ru Gorshkov class FFG,larger than the Talwars, there are two new rocket launchers on either side of the SAM VLS silos, with the main 100mm gun forward. This is a much neater location which also improves stealth as the two launchers do not project above the height of the flush-deck SAM silos,partly shielded by the sides of the hull too.

An alternative and perhaps better location for a single RBU would be in "A" position at the bows,as was done in former Sov. warships,,with the main gun in " B" position on the raised deck level housing the flush deck missile silos. There would be much more space for silos before the main superstructure in this arrangement.

The Gorshkov frigate also has a new ASW anti-torpedo system called Paket-NK,which is amidships hidden by hull panels and located below the main deck. These twin-tube launchers are the equiv. of mini torpedoes .A vessel of min. corvette size or light frigate of 1750t - 2000t, could field an RBU,twin heavweight TTs or a triple LW torpedo launcher,plus Paket and an ASW helo too.Paket is unique as it can attack both subs( 10km range),plus torpedoes in simultaneous mode at a range of approx 1km.

Our Pauk/ Abhay class 500t ASW corvettes,based upon the same hull as the Tarantula missile corvettes, had 4 TT launchers for SET-65E 533mm torpedoes,plus two 5 barelled ASW RBUs. It will be interesting to see what weaponry the 16 new (inshore ) shallow water ASW corvettes of approx.700+t will carry. GSL and GRSE have two different designs.

At an earlier Aero- India, the desi anti- torpedo decoy was shown, expendable cylindrical decoys about 4 ft. to 5 ft. in length ,around 8" to 9" dia, which would be housed in the hull of subs and on
warships in a 10 tube twin layered launcher,a warship would possibly have one on either beam. The towed array was also shown in an R- Day float . While Mareech is a soft kill weapon,Paket is a hard- kill one for both subs and incoming "fish".

Tx.Adm.Rax for the pic of the Rajput with the twin BMos inclined launchers.Was wondering when they would replace the second tier of old Styx SSMs on the Rajputs. The DRDO have also developed a 4 box BMos inclined launcher,but for which retrofits or new vessels?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 29 Jun 2020 09:31

Philip wrote:you look at the new Ru Gorshkov class FFG,larger than the Talwars, there are two new rocket launchers on either side of the SAM VLS silos, with the main 100mm gun forward. This is a much neater location which also improves stealth as the two launchers do not project above the height of the flush-deck SAM silos,partly shielded by the sides of the hull too.

You are comparing Rbu-6000 which requires extensive deck penetration with rocket launchers you cannot stick a Rbu-6000 in the bow. You are confusing Rbu-1000/1200 with Rbu-6000.

As for inclined Brahmos launchers I believe the ones in Rajput is the older design fitted during Brahmos tests. The one displayed by L&T look different.

https://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-l ... es-2612241

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 29 Jun 2020 12:36

Old Parchim class 700t corvettes fielded 2 RBU-600 llaunchers in A turret position,with a single 300mm gatling in front. On larger warships ,a rearrangement can be done for a single launcher in the bows.It could even be just after the main gun ,a level higher flush with the VLS .This would still give more space for VLS silos for BMos,B-8 whatever. The Gorshkov arrangement is a good solution too. The Pauk/Abhay 1200 system uses lighter rounds with a shorter range.I think there was a report last year which said that new rounds had increased the range to 10km. Perhaps the L&T built sytem uses the new rounds. Paket's hard-kill options for both subs and torpedoes is unique and worth examining as it is flush inside the hull on each beam,saving topside space for other armament.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby vishvak » 29 Jun 2020 15:55

..Each nation, however, must always act in its own national interest. ..
..

It is mentioned in chanakya niti that big/essential/necessary trade routes must be seen like sadhu ie must not be disturbed IIRC.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 01 Jul 2020 18:58

Just a quick note.I dug out an old edition of Jane's FS to ck. Sov. Kara and Kynda class CGs had twin MBU-6000 launchers at the bows. The Kyndas are smaller than our Delhi class DDGs too.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 01 Jul 2020 19:06

Philip wrote:Just a quick note.I dug out an old edition of Jane's FS to ck. Sov. Kara and Kynda class CGs had twin MBU-6000 launchers at the bows. The Kyndas are smaller than our Delhi class DDGs too.

Rbu-1200 did not require deck penetration and Rbu-1000 (on Sovremenny) deck penetration is much smaller than Rbu-6000.

Kara and Kynda did not have main gun in the bow and Rbu-6000 took the place. Could have done that config for P-28 which could freed up room for U-VLS for Brahmos and done away with the main gun but we didn’t.

If we can wanted to place the Rbu-6000 by the bow they would have definitely done that but because of exhaust (you don’t want it to be hitting the VLS silos) and the deck penetration required there is not room other than after the Brahmos U-VLS.


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