Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

[nachiket]

So, one interesting question from the Swarajyamag article: what is the point of the 4th crew member if you are requiring an autoloader ?

Because they want both an autoloader as well as a manual backup in case the autoloader fails. Not a single tank anywhere in the world with an autoloader as well as 4 crew members. And they want all this within 55 tonnes too. There is no way those who drafted the QR's did not realize how hilariously stupid this is. And that is why I am saying this is deliberate.

[nachiket]

This QR is designed for the CVRDE to fail or not participate altogether. When that happens (and it will), imports will be argued for. Either the T-14 Armata or the K2 Black Panther will come. Regardless of whatever horse manure is written in that QR, that is what will happen.

Since we do not have a DefMin with the either the brains to understand what the army is doing or the guts to tell them to go screw themselves, we might as well just buy the T-14/K2 right now instead of wasting any resources trying to actually develop this thing.

[SRajesh]

Nachiketji
100%
Regardless of seniority Khadi Ninja is not cut out for the DM
Hope the next Cabinet will ensure that
What is wrong in getting Gen VK Singh
If we can have Shri Jaishankar as lateral entry why not an Ex General

[Anujan]

I think it is a great idea to have a field interchangeable gun to shoot 105mm, 130mm, 120mm rifled. vs smoothbore etc. Was that not added to the QR?

[Manish_P]

I think it is a great idea to have a field interchangeable gun to shoot 105mm, 130mm, 120mm rifled. vs smoothbore etc. Was that not added to the QR?

You can also add a requirement of gun elevation to be howitzer class. Boom. You have covered the tracked artillery requirement as well. Truly multirole.

[Rakesh]

Not multirole, but omnirole like Rafale.

[Pratyush]

So, one interesting question from the Swarajyamag article: what is the point of the 4th crew member if you are requiring an autoloader ?

The Germans have released the concept of a 130 mm gun tank with an autoloader and optional 4th crew to manage drones. But that vehicle limits main gun ammunition to just 20 rounds, IIRC.

It doesn't take a lot of imagination to figure out where the Indian army is coming from.
But as is usual for them. They are going to eff it up.

[Pratyush]

You can also add a requirement of gun elevation to be howitzer class. Boom. You have covered the tracked artillery requirement as well. Truly multirole.

The Belgians have a 105 mm turret doing just that. Don't give these people any new ideas.

[chetak]

Nachiketji
100%
Regardless of seniority Khadi Ninja is not cut out for the DM
Hope the next Cabinet will ensure that
What is wrong in getting Gen VK Singh
If we can have Shri Jaishankar as lateral entry why not an Ex General

SRajesh ji,


there may be less than a handful of people, in the entire world, of the calibre, class, stature, and competence of Shri S. Jaishankar.

Import lobby is almost dead/defanged and the QR is just some words on a piece of paper.

Nothing is carved in stone and the requirement of urgency of action is imaginary, given the pace at which most govts work

everyone is just flying kites and the final decision transcends the MoD

[ashthor]

I suggest a twin barrel 130mm tank. With quad ATGM and Quad drone drone capsule.

[uddu]

Nachiketji
100%
Regardless of seniority Khadi Ninja is not cut out for the DM
Hope the next Cabinet will ensure that
What is wrong in getting Gen VK Singh
If we can have Shri Jaishankar as lateral entry why not an Ex General

SRajesh ji,

Import lobby is almost dead/defanged and the QR is just some words on a piece of paper.

If this is the case (CCS deal is for an Elta design when local alternative is available) we've dropped the ball on yet another major program. All this just makes a complete farce of atmanirbharta.
https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 9050044431
More imports are happening through the Atmanirbharta route while our systems are ousted through the same route. Situation is going to get worse in the coming years.

[chetak]

SRajesh ji,

Import lobby is almost dead/defanged and the QR is just some words on a piece of paper.

If this is the case (CCS deal is for an Elta design when local alternative is available) we've dropped the ball on yet another major program. All this just makes a complete farce of atmanirbharta.
https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 9050044431
More imports are happening through the Atmanirbharta route while our systems are ousted through the same route. Situation is going to get worse in the coming years.

uddu ji,

At one time, I was present during the entire trials of a "local alternative" and an "imported design" that were conducted side by side, on two similar aircraft, each fitted with a competing radar, flying similar sorties, in identical weather and sea state conditions while using the exact same target.

Results were recorded, and replayed in a comparison mode with all the stake holders present. Those records still exist in some dusty cupboard of the makers of the "local alternative"

All I can say is that don't believe the junk that you hear on twitter/social media because there is a vast difference between ground reality and wishful thinking

[srai]

^^^
The IA already did that with Arjun Mk.1 vs T-90S vs T-72 more than a decade ago. Arjun came out on top and yet more T-90s ordered and now a Frankenstein of T-72&T-90 being designed by IA.

[Pratyush]

Fair enough.

But is a comparison that took place 10 or 20 or 30 years ago still a valid point of reference?

Or the RFQ being designed in such a way that only a specific imported system is suitable for the requirements. A valid way of doing business.

We know how the army has effed up Arjun program.

We know how the army is effing up the arty procurement program by asking for a new fangled towed gun at under 12 tons when the ATAGS has completed its entire development cycle and is awaiting orders.

We know about the confusion in the small arms space.

Just because the young officers and Jawans are returning wrapped in tiranga doesn't absolve the top brass from acts of omission and comission towards the procurement of suitable equipment.

I will not blame the DM or the Babu from the MOD. If those people cannot tell the difference between the muzzle and the breach of a gun. Then I cannot expect them to understand what is suitable equipment for the service.

That's for the service to specify.
But over the last 40 years that I have spent watching the them. They have not missed any opportunity to eff things up.

[chetak]

Fair enough.

But is a comparison that took place 10 or 20 or 30 years ago still a valid point of reference?

Or the RFQ being designed in such a way that only a specific imported system is suitable for the requirements. A valid way of doing business.

We know how the army has effed up Arjun program.

We know how the army is effing up the arty procurement program by asking for a new fangled towed gun at under 12 tons when the ATAGS has completed its entire development cycle and is awaiting orders.

We know about the confusion in the small arms space.

Just because the young officers and Jawans are returning wrapped in tiranga doesn't absolve the top brass from acts of omission and comission towards the procurement of suitable equipment.

I will not blame the DM or the Babu from the MOD. If those people cannot tell the difference between the muzzle and the breach of a gun. Then I cannot expect them to understand what is suitable equipment for the service.

That's for the service to specify.
But over the last 40 years that I have spent watching the them. They have not missed any opportunity to eff things up.

Pratyush ji,


Anyone can ask for the moon.

There has to be someone to give it to them....

BTW, how come netaji is never mentioned in the Sukhoi deal

but these days, that/those someone(s) have become very careful about poking their noses into unwanted places because consequences are sure to follow

now and then, here and there, some one may even get to poke a natasha, because it is not such a big deal in many cultures but that seems to be the sum total of it. Horizontal enterprise doesn't always result in a bias loaded decision. The concerned horizontal entrepreneur is simply retired hurt and returned to pavilion for further processing and will never pad up again

In every arms/weapon system import deal, or even the evaluation of the draft ASQR, the babooze are over represented because, over the years "so many interests" are sought to be protected by "sleepers" planted in strategic positions on caste, state, religion, and tactically driven, "emerging opportunity" coalition political compulsions that trump logic

The uniforms are the गधा मजदूरी or donkey labor in the hierarchy of the ecosystem. To lay everything at their door is unfair. The way that things are set up, the uniforms can be over ruled, at any time, by any one in the food chain.

They have a part to play, for sure, but they are never the major drivers

[Pratyush]

The uniforms are the गधा मजदूरी or donkey labor in the hierarchy of the ecosystem. To lay everything at their door is unfair. The way that things are set up, the uniforms can be over ruled, at any time, by any one in the food chain.

The uniforms are responsible for designing the GSQR. They're responsible for what happened to Arjun, they're responsible for what's happening in arty procurement over the last few years.

That's the balme they have earned.

[chetak]

The uniforms are the गधा मजदूरी or donkey labor in the hierarchy of the ecosystem. To lay everything at their door is unfair. The way that things are set up, the uniforms can be over ruled, at any time, by any one in the food chain.

The uniforms are responsible for designing the GSQR. They're responsible for what happened to Arjun, they're responsible for what's happening in arty procurement over the last few years.

That's the balme they have earned.

Pratyush ji,

when was the last time that any of the uniforms had the opportunity to defend themselves... By law, their fundamental rights, including that of free speech, is abrogated, per the terms and conditions of their service. They are forbidden to talk to the press. Transgressions are severely dealt with, often ending careers

That is not the blame they have earned but the blame that was shifted on to them. The uniforms rank low on the systemic totem pole and that is by design since the happy days of neverwho. Has anyone forgotten the humiliation heaped on Gen Thimmiah by nehru....

…Nehru was never comfortable with the armed forces. …his political indoctrination had … instilled in him a desire to downgrade India’s officer cadre rather than tap their leadership potential and assimilate them into the machinery of government. This in turn created a vacuum in the decision-making chain, into which the civil servants stepped. …taking important military decisions that they were not equipped to handle.

The prime minister’s attitude towards Thimayya was damaging to the chief as well as the army. … General Thimayya was… a seasoned, disciplined soldier who would hardly have made issues over trifles. …

Publicly Nehru was seen to be fond of Timmy; however, behind his back, the prime minister adopted tactics that clearly indicated that he viewed Thimayya as a rival who could challenge his position as the undisputed head of the Indian Union. Given the general’s track record in World War II — Thimayya had been the first and only Indian officer to command a fighting brigade in the Arakan where he had been awarded the Distinguished Service Order (DSO) — and the role played by him in the Jammu and Kashmir Operations, Nehru knew he could not browbeat him.

look at what they did to Gen VK singh and the case of his birth certificate.... That was the empire striking back. Every pillar supported the empire, even when the facts were crystal clear, evident, and provable legally. And yet, they trampled all over his rights, in a great show of democracy.

The entire border issue with cheen was only handled by gawar MEA baboozes who didn't which way was up or north, for that matter. All discussions, over the decades, with the cheen was based on maps and terrain features which the baboozes had no clue about, and often were given unauthenticated maps with no evidence of source or origin or indeed with no relevance to the chai biskoot "discussions" just concluded.

Defence strategy sessions of serious national import, used to be attended by only MOD baboozes who didn't know the difference between a sling shot and a sanitary napkin, and according to latest reports, they are still unaware that they are unaware. They were the ones who than ordered the uniforms to commit to a pre decided course of action

The arty guns didn't come for so many years because the cheen and the pakis had to be mollycoddled. Border roads were not built because, you guessed it, the cheen and the pakis had to be mollycoddled....and besides someone important needed a very big cut.... until the Modi govt came along and the arty guns appeared magically, in a "no cut" govt to govt deal

there is nothing like a multi tasking, all knowing, babooze whose capabilities are based only on the rank that he carries rather than the experience and expertise that he has accumulated in daily grind and complexities, while working in a vital ministry. Such a being is mythical and wholly a figment of a babooze imagination

Just look at the new found professionalism that pervades the inner workings of the MoD and MEA and the visible result that such clear eyed professionalism has produced in our dealings with adversaries

It was only with the advent of the new govt that the cheen got their ears pinned back by tough talking professional soldiers who pushed back against the habitual roughshod dealings of the cheen.

Jaishankar's professionalism is unparalleled in the checkered history of a servile MEA, that survived by bootlicking the britshits, the amrikis, and the cheen. The difference cannot but be noticed now, especially, on a global scale

Remember the foreign secy who was kicked out post obummer's visit for sins of omission and commission. That was the deep state that tried to assert itself, not withstanding the change of govt.. That public sacking resulted in a pandemic of diarrhoea both among the babooze ecosystem as well as, the incestuous tribe of fast extinguishing lootyens luminaries

Definitely the uniforms write the initial GSQR, and it's only because the others don't know jackschitt, but whose stamp does the final GSQR bear... It is either that of the MOD or at levels even higher and at every iteration of the GSQR there are MOD and DRDO guys sitting in, giving their inputs which are officially minuted and recorded

Pray tell which Indian army generated GSQR covered the The M777 howitzer, a towed 155 mm artillery piece in the howitzer class that India uses now and when was this particular GSQR made......before or after the deal...

It was pushed by the higher levels of the GoI after a govt to govt deal with a foreign country

[SRajesh]

^^Mods Sorry if I am digressing here
Chetakji
That is the main point.
We need someone as RM(DM) who knows a bit of engineering and can if needed beat the shit out of both Babooze and the General if they start singing of Unobtanium!!

[srai]

^^^
Let the army order in bulk what are ready! Then let’s talk.

ATAGS
Arjun Mk1A

Quite a few local small arms options

[chetak]

^^Mods Sorry if I am digressing here
Chetakji
That is the main point.
We need someone as RM(DM) who knows a bit of engineering and can if needed beat the shit out of both Babooze and the General if they start singing of Unobtanium!!

SRajesh ji,

The interference for the arty guns was the BIF. It was never the IA. The serial cancellation of contracts for the arty guns followed a set pattern ---- allegations of corruption that were made at the advanced stage in the negotiations that derailed the process and caused the requirement to be retendered because some favourite supplier did not meet some obscure conditions and was thus knocked out of the race. This process was repeated on multiple occasions ad nauseum, and AFAIK, most, if not all such allegations were made anonymously

The saddest part of the arty guns procurement charade was that the govt of the day played along, a far cry from the present govt which would have jugged the lot of them under the NSA or equivalent

The Arty guns have brought about a quantum change of tactics and strategy in this region. The fear of god was put into the paki and cheen defence planners after the phenomenal success that India achieved using the bofors guns in kargil.

we had all the details of the bofors guns, so why did we not make them in India, what stopped us.....

The interference for the russki tanks may well be the russki govt (?) and many other things may also be tied to it

our russki nuke sub deal is one such project that the GoI is not willing to lose.

we have a large inventory of their power generation reactors... and russki legacy weapon systems

Things are never so cut and dried as is being made out here, and tunnel vision rarely helps in such matters.

we do not know the intricacies of the geopolitical situation that constrains India

so who knows where the shoe pinches

The russkis have also seen what's happened to some of their tanks in the ukr war and that must be extremely worrying for them. The IA seems to have taken up an in house project to see if some modifications can be done to prevent such types of battle damage, which, to my mind, means that the russkis are also thinking along the same lines and are probably working on a dependable fix.

Their tankers cannot be happy going into battle riding these death traps, and our guys, going right up to the very top, will also have similar apprehensions.

Any further weapon purchases are bound to be G to G deals, sans agents/middlemen, leaving no room for revdi and malai

simply blaming "bloody minded jernails" may be counter productive and also illogical. If it were simply a case of systemic recalcitrance, as is being portrayed, the jernails would have been kicked into submission a long time ago.

so, why are orders not so forthcoming for the Indian tanks...... and perhaps, there may be another story here

Anyone, including me, can say what they please, but rest assured that it matters jack to the GoI.

they will decide, as and when the time comes, and the stars align....

so far, this govt has been pretty surefooted, despite the enormous pulls and pressures from the so called "global powers".

My last on this topic.

[SRajesh]

Anyone got update of MTU delays for Arjun 1A
Alpha defence vidoes says 4 year delay
also Zorawar engine changed to cummins

[chetak]

Anyone got update of MTU delays for Arjun 1A
Alpha defence vidoes says 4 year delay
also Zorawar engine changed to cummins

SRajesh ji,


Heard that the required engine is out of production and MTU needs the time to reestablish the entire supply chain and ensure its reliability.

Also lower order numbers may be adding to the delay and probably the costing may be affected

the actual reason is that germany does not want to offend it's friend cheen by providing power plants for a tank that can and will eventually be used against the cheen and so they also jinxed the Zorawar light tank as well, which, BTW, would be deployed against the cheen ASAP

the krauts have never ever been a friend of India

Germany’s inability to supply engines to India is not a novel occurrence. It mirrored a past setback for New Delhi when the German government withheld BAFA (Federal Office for Economic Affairs and Export Control) clearance for engine exports to India, impacting the indigenous Zorawar light tank prototype.

Consequently, India was compelled to turn to American company Cummins for tank engines in October 2023. At that time, Germany had not provided specific clarification on the reasons behind the decision to withhold the supply of tank engines to India.

Germany maintains stringent regulations governing arms exports, with a particular focus on considerations such as human rights, regional stability, and conflict zones. These regulations may occasionally impose restrictions or delay arms sales to countries like India, influenced by the prevailing political and security conditions at the time.

Operational Hurdles With the Arjun Tank
The Indian Army primarily relies on Russian tanks, with approximately 1,900 license-built T-72M1s and around 1,500 T-90Ss in its inventory. These T-90Ss are third-generation Russian main battle tanks developed as successors to the T-72.

On the other hand, India’s homegrown Arjun was envisioned to replace the Soviet-built T-72 tanks with several capabilities surpassing those of the Russian tanks.

During a friendly duel with the T-90 tanks in 2008-2009, the Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT) demonstrated superior performance compared to the Russian system across various parameters, including firing accuracy and stability.

Despite its superior capabilities, the primary drawback of the tank lies in its weight. Originally designed to weigh only 48 tons, the Arjun tank exceeded expectations, ultimately reaching a weight of 62 tons. Its latest iteration now tips the scales at 68.5 tons.

Lt. Gen AB Shivane said, “Arjun Mk1A or Arjun Mk2 have weight penalties which are not optimal for our operational requirement.” The weight of the Arjun has also been generally cited as a factor that has dissuaded the Indian Army from ordering more units, as it is incompatible with the infrastructure in the Western sector.

Rahul Manohar Yelwe stated that the development and procurement of a tank revolve around three main points: firepower, protection, and mobility. He further explained that the design of the Arjun tank is based on the Leopard 2A4 tank, following the Western design philosophy.

In contrast to Russian tank design, where firepower and mobility play a crucial role, Western tanks are largely inclined towards prioritizing better protection and firepower.

To enhance the Arjun tank’s protection, it is equipped with the locally designed composite blend Kanchan armor. This armor provides the tank with better protection, but it comes at the expense of increased weight, leading to a reduction in tactical and operational mobility.

However, he stressed that placing all the blame solely on the Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) was not fair.

In contrast to the Indian Navy, which has an in-house Directorate of Naval Design collaborating closely with development agencies right from the outset to design weapon systems, the Indian Army lacks such an agency.

(The IN has managed to keep its house clean by severely limiting the role of the DRDO in the vast majority of its projects, despite major efforts by the DRDO to somehow find some entry points and seek to infiltrate the IN ecosystem. Additionally, the IN controls several crucial PSUs which it supports in terms of repeated orders and crucially, the IN is in complete charge or has a very major veto like say in who heads the PSUs and various crucial divisions. Often retired IN guys of proven competence and aptitude end up in the ranks of most of the higher echelon of such captive PSU management. Additionally, the IN has a major role and say in all systems integration, testing, and closely controls the weapon system trials, irrespective of which lab designed what system. The IN now has virtually become a design house, with an organically amalgamated manufacturing setup via the captive PSUs, and has established a proven track record for integrating diverse systems originating from different countries)

Consequently, as the project advances, the Army often finds itself wanting to incorporate additional features into the tank, such as larger guns and improved armor, which can present challenges in implementing changes.

Nonetheless, Yelwe added that the weight concern presents a notable obstacle, given that many bridges along the border were primarily designed and constructed to accommodate Russian tanks.

Moreover, transporting the Arjun MK 1A by train is difficult as it requires dedicated Mobile Bogie Well Wagons. The Indian logistics system is optimized for medium-weight tanks, making it challenging to create a separate network for just four regiments of the Arjun MBT, primarily designed for desert theaters.

[vera_k]

Many indicators point to the necessity of replacing German origin equipment.

Germany is said to be de-industrializing partly because of increased energy costs due to the Ukraine war, but also due to demographic issues.
Rust belt on the Rhine

[srai]

Well… the German MTU MB 838 engine could have been licensed produced in India had there been a volume order (500 units) for Arjun MBT.

Even now there is an option should there be a larger order.

There is clearly a lack of understanding within the armed forces on economics of scale. Or maybe that is their way to make it unviable and gradually kill an indigenous product.

[bala]

Now is a good time to push for a completely Indian made engine. Forget videshi engines. The army can operate the new engine and get the kinks out, replacing with version 1, 2, 3.. or A, B, etc. A dedicated combustion team with young recruits can solve the issues. Engine tech has been the bugaboo of every sector. India does not have aircraft engine, marine engine, tank engine, high power space rocket engine, the list is endless.

[chetak]

Now is a good time to push for a completely Indian made engine. Forget videshi engines. The army can operate the new engine and get the kinks out, replacing with version 1, 2, 3.. or A, B, etc. A dedicated combustion team with young recruits can solve the issues. Engine tech has been the bugaboo of every sector. India does not have aircraft engine, marine engine, tank engine, high power space rocket engine, the list is endless.

bala saar,


we are back to stage 1

where are the human resources for the "A dedicated combustion team with young recruits can solve the issues".

if it were as easy as you make it sound, what were they waiting for, and why have they not done it so far....

we have already spent more than >$900 million for 118 numbers of the german MTU engines with no assurance of further supply. the krauts are a very risky source and India will be extremely foolish to accord them the single supplier status. For India, the krauts are a double whammy because they need to keep not only their jihadi migrants but also their cheen friends happy. Both groups are virulently anti India and besides the krauts are very unhappy that their conversion efforts and funding have been severely curtailed by the GoI....and this is a major political issue with them and an unacceptably high risk single point of failure situation for us.

best to cut out the german option all together and along with the DATRAN, explore the possibility of second sourcing another suitable engine with options for future growth.

With India entering the lucrative weapons export market, the BIF certainly do not want India exporting tanks and other armoured vehicles, especially to markets that they currently dominate.

It is time that we understood that the germans (BIF) have sabotaged the arjun program, as they have cunningly done with the zorawar light tank project, but luckily we managed to find a cummins engine that the fit the bill. Time to get the local industry to reverse engineer the cummins or simply initiate development of a new uprated engine based on the cummins or even based on the MTU engines already supplied for the arjun mk1A

A new engine, the DATRAN 1500 HP engine is a prototype engine for the DRDO's Futuristic Main Battle Tank (FMBT), now under joint development of the DRDO and Bharat Earth Movers Limited (BEML)

lets see how the DATRAN development goes but it is conservatively estimated to be at least 3-5 years down the line

[srai]

^^^
Easy to lay the blame elsewhere

[chetak]

Well… the German MTU MB 838 engine could have been licensed produced in India had there been a volume order (500 units) for Arjun MBT.

Even now there is an option should there be a larger order.

There is clearly a lack of understanding within the armed forces on economics of scale. Or maybe that is their way to make it unviable and gradually kill an indigenous product.

srai ji,


If we look at the DRDO’s official website the organization is developing 3 types of diesel engines. The first one is 1500hp engine for battle tanks, 2nd one is 600 hp engine for Infantry combat vehicles and 3rd one is 180 hp for naval application and Unmanned Aerial Propulsion System like Tapas/Rustom-2 UAVs.

The armed forces have the right to seek weapons and systems to fulfil the role given to them.

every time the congis come to power, they shaft the forces because the eyetalian mafia need the country to be weak and meek so that their BIF masters can walk all over us

The IA fought the '62 war in clothing and footwear meant for the warm plains instead of cold weather gear.

Did anyone hear them complaining or whining, even as they died in their tens of hundreds, battling, among other things, the bitter cold in the himalayas...... who was responsible for this disaster.....and for the many soldiers who starved to death, without food and ammo, while still fighting to their last bullet

what were the politicos, the PM, the RM, the babooze and the rest of their battalions of adoring sycophants, along with their bandwagons, doing while this was happening....

weren't they the masters who wilfully sent the pitifully ill equipped soldiers to their deaths

It is the masters of the Indian Armed Forces who should understand the economies of scale and the wisdom of having a properly equipped fighting fit force

So, how come no one ever talks about the sometimes evil role of the masters of the Indian Armed Forces ......... and the Forces get blamed for everything

no point in constantly blaming the forces who use what they get, while absolving the clowns who are actually responsible for matching the threat to the weapon systems being procured and provisioning accordingly

Yes, there are bad eggs every where but the inherent and systemic strengths of the Forces will ensure that these aberrations get weeded out quickly enough, unlike in other organizations

Maintaining the Armed forces is a huge expenditure, one that is necessary for the safety and security of the country. If they, the masters, want to make compromises, let them do so by all means and while they are at it, let them also go screw themselves, and like neverwho said, we will use the "police" and pot bellied pandus with lathis will proceed to the border

There is clearly a lack of understanding within the armed forces on economics of scale. Or maybe that is their way to make it unviable and gradually kill an indigenous product.

and like some frustrated jernail opined...... "we will fight with what we have" and punk politicos took him at his word and gave them nothing

It would be best to keep off from constantly busting the testimonials of the Armed forces. They are not the villains that you make make them out to be.

They often wind up paying the ultimate price for the mistakes that other brainless clowns make or made

It is not the job of the Armed Forces to

"understand the economics of scale"

It is way beyond their pay grade and was never ever a part of their job description.

and

"understand the economics of scale"

does not exist in their vocabulary because they do not control the budget or the finances or even the priority in which their funding is placed

That is sole reason why the effing babooze of the MoD are paid, employed and tasked by regulation to do. It is their job to

"understand the economics of scale"

and manage it accordingly. What else do they do for their living anyway...

the Forces are paid to fight when the need arises, but it is the bounden duty of the politicos, and the babooze to see that such need never arises, but if the need does arise, the Forces simply head out, without question, delay or excuse, because if they have to be called out, it means that all other options have failed and the govt is using its resort of last choice

It is the job of the MOD babooze to manage the DRDO and make sure that results are produced and the requirements of the Forces are met because, after all, they control and over see both. They have, instead, slyly abdicated all responsibility, and have willy nilly pushed the Forces into a direct confrontation with all and sundry, and shifted the blame squarely on to their shoulders.

the very first and fundamental lesson that these babooze learn is how to avoid all responsibility and yet stay in the limelight

The Forces have no authority over any civilian agencies, so why and how are they responsible for failures. As users, they have every right to ask for the moon because they figure that better specs will lead to a reduced body bag count.

The MoD babooze have the overall responsibility to work out the via media on a cost benefit basis by liaising between the user and designer.

It is because the MOD babooze have not standardized any process, each of the three services have been forced to adapt and thus have evolved their own processes, independent of the others and such individualized processes are incompatible with the processes of the other two services, and it is but natural that the civilian agencies, as well as, the MOD, will surreptitiously seek to exploit such systemic incompatibilities and blame the forces

Allegations like scuttling the tank project is so much poppycock. If such were to be attempted, by some disgruntled jernail and his gang, the reverberations would rise to the very top and beyond, resulting in the RM and maybe even the PM asking very tough questions, and intelligence agencies being unleashed to get at the truth, with all the conspirators being handily lined up at the chopping block.

unless of course, and hypothetically speaking, someone is crazy enough and is suggesting a huge conspiracy that involves the entire cabal, including the IA, the MOD, the DRDO, the CJI, the Comptroller and Auditor General of India, along with the RM and the PM

Afterall, tens of thousands of crores have been already invested and heads would surely roll, and that too publicly

and yes, you are very right srai saab,

It's Easy to lay the blame elsewhere

[bala]

where are the human resources for the "A dedicated combustion team with young recruits can solve the issues".
if it were as easy as you make it sound, what were they waiting for, and why have they not done it so far.

Chetak saar, you mentioned Cummins engines as an alternate to the MTU one. The Cummins company in the US recruits fresh graduates to work on engines. My own young relative is one of them from Purdue Univ. India has to recruit fresh graduates from NIT, IIT, etc to work on such projects, they bring energy, new ideas and work hard to prove themselves. People like Kalam were young men when they worked on the initial ISRO rockets.

[drnayar]

If i am not wrong the proposal to include the armed services into the strategic planning and design with in the DRDO was a proposal that was resisted by DRDO itself.. wont it at least help in formulating at least realistic GSQRs ?

[Pratyush]

If i am not wrong the proposal to include the armed services into the strategic planning and design with in the DRDO was a proposal that was resisted by DRDO itself.. wont it at least help in formulating at least realistic GSQRs ?

IMO, it will not.

The job of the DRDO is to decide if the requirements communicated by the service are achievable within the Indian industry or not. If it's not achievable, then outright import happens.

It's a two way process.

The problem is that the service is not realistic about the process itself. That's why the process fails.

Arjun, ATAGS, INSAS, individual night sights, are textbook examples of this lack of understanding.

Most frustratingly, the army has shown a remarkable ability to understand and execute new technology. But when it comes to more traditional branches of the service, the issue remains same as it was.

[chetak]

where are the human resources for the "A dedicated combustion team with young recruits can solve the issues".
if it were as easy as you make it sound, what were they waiting for, and why have they not done it so far.

Chetak saar, you mentioned Cummins engines as an alternate to the MTU one. The Cummins company in the US recruits fresh graduates to work on engines. My own young relative is one of them from Purdue Univ. India has to recruit fresh graduates from NIT, IIT, etc to work on such projects, they bring energy, new ideas and work hard to prove themselves. People like Kalam were young men when they worked on the initial ISRO rockets.

bala saar,

not wishing to dampen any enthusiasm or rain on anyone's parade but one wonders how many fresh graduates from NIT, IIT etc would have joined the govt service so far.

some have, by preference, joined the IAS after qualifying, and some others would certainly have joined other organizations in the govt but you will agree that they have, in general, not shown any great interest for govt service largely because they have other and more viable options and the freedom of choice to choose the option that best suits them.

but if quality human resources can be motivated, it will only benefit us

and bala saar, the cummins engine is in the 1000 HP class, where as the MTU engine is in the 1500 HP class, and both engines are highly evolved with each meant for different types of tanks....but we would do well to strip and study them closely and involve the private sector to find the way forward. Those guys think very differently from the govt employee DNA dictated mindset and are more nimble in seeking/finding solutions.

One wonders if our pathetic development record in all types of engines has not been shadow managed in the background by inimical forces.

for any country to become self sufficient in diverse and also related fields, basic engine tech, as well as, the ability and capacity to design and produce high tech versions has to be a fundamental part of the eclectic mix...

[bala]

I am ok with private engagement. However I don't want a rebadged videshi engine whose real IP/knowhow resides elsewhere, e.g. Adani hermes rebadged drishti. India has to have national engine program under DRDO and shepard a totally Indian engine, they can use private partnership help. BARC and ISRO have had success in creating engines for nuclear submarines and vikas/gslv liquid/cryogenic class rockets. All it takes some clear goals/leadership to make it happen within India. Even the dreary Indian Railways under Sudhanshu Mani pulled of the Vande Bharat train with private firm, medha's help. The mechanical guys in IR had adversial relations with the electric walas in IR so they skipped them and used private help and got the job done. In Kaveri engine, we have done a lot and according to Maitya ji we may be ahead in certain areas, some more effort and we can have a working Kaveri engine with afterburner. If we can't hire NITs, IITs, we can collaborate with their combustion department profs and have young people who are graduates work on such projects. Tis all doable with available Indian talent but it requires firm resolve and a MOD to make things happen. Engines are national projects and the politicos/babus/DRDO/armed forces have to coalesce together and make it happen. The armed forces can help in testing and iterative improvements, having perfection on day 1 is a fool's gold goal, making do with what you have and improving it incrementally is the way forward. All takes time and money. Speaking of money Modiji/Nirmalaji have to 10x the budget for R&D, this is well worth it.

[chetak]

I am ok with private engagement. However I don't want a rebadged videshi engine whose real IP/knowhow resides elsewhere, e.g. Adani hermes rebadged drishti. India has to have national engine program under DRDO and shepard a totally Indian engine, they can use private partnership help. BARC and ISRO have had success in creating engines for nuclear submarines and vikas/gslv liquid/cryogenic class rockets. All it takes some clear goals/leadership to make it happen within India. Even the dreary Indian Railways under Sudhanshu Mani pulled of the Vande Bharat train with private firm, medha's help. The mechanical guys in IR had adversial relations with the electric walas in IR so they skipped them and used private help and got the job done. In Kaveri engine, we have done a lot and according to Maitya ji we may be ahead in certain areas, some more effort and we can have a working Kaveri engine with afterburner. If we can't hire NITs, IITs, we can collaborate with their combustion department profs and have young people who are graduates work on such projects. Tis all doable with available Indian talent but it requires firm resolve and a MOD to make things happen. Engines are national projects and the politicos/babus/DRDO/armed forces have to coalesce together and make it happen. The armed forces can help in testing and iterative improvements, having perfection on day 1 is a fool's gold goal, making do with what you have and improving it incrementally is the way forward. All takes time and money. Speaking of money Modiji/Nirmalaji have to 10x the budget for R&D, this is well worth it.

bala saar,


All of what is being suggested has already been tried.

money will come only when some results are seen and agreed upon milestones are reached. They do not want another kaveri


don't harp on "rebadged". The first few examples will be to display proof of concept and show his intent and capabilities. He will first get the order before he delivers the goods. He would not have debuted without a superior product already in the pipeline to back up what is flying now. Adani has established a sound reputation in israel and the govt there is happy with him and his work in the haifa port project

ambani and adani, both have outstanding abilities in project management. Both are cash rich, with a high risk tolerance, and have a history of prudent financial management.

He has just entered a new and lucrative business and he is not the one to merely rebadge and repaint. They will soon make stuff on their own and it's adani that is involved and not some fly by night operator.

[chetak]

If i am not wrong the proposal to include the armed services into the strategic planning and design with in the DRDO was a proposal that was resisted by DRDO itself.. wont it at least help in formulating at least realistic GSQRs ?

IMO, it will not.

The job of the DRDO is to decide if the requirements communicated by the service are achievable within the Indian industry or not. If it's not achievable, then outright import happens.

It's a two way process.

The problem is that the service is not realistic about the process itself. That's why the process fails.

Arjun, ATAGS, INSAS, individual night sights, are textbook examples of this lack of understanding.

Most frustratingly, the army has shown a remarkable ability to understand and execute new technology. But when it comes to more traditional branches of the service, the issue remains same as it was.

Pratyush ji

there is nothing like "realistic GSQRs"

every line in the GSQR has to be explained and justified to numerous tech and operational panels. There are no secrets here. the design guys sit in right from the early stages, as do the guys from finance, audit and operations


GSQRs are made based on threat assessment, generally from cheen and pakis.

If they acquire new equipment or systems, like when cheen got the S 400 and India also needed that because the cheen were going to deploy it in gwadar and also cover the pakis under the S-400 umbrella

The threats are known and the systems needed to counter the threats are also known. The amrikis would not have sold us their system so we had to get it from the russkis. The russkis even offered us the S-500

everything in the GSQR is explained to all stake holders and there are no secrets or surprises that are suddenly sprung out of the blue. Of course, revisions may take place but that too follows the set procedures

The creep in the specs is because a newer system or an upgraded version of the older one has been deployed against India.

It is the right of the IA to ask for higher specs because the threats have increased or have changed

And, there is no question of understanding or not understanding. The same facts are available to everyone

In the end it boils down to price for import versus the claims of the DRDO that they can do it at a much lesser cost. Promises have not been kept in many cases and they have ruined their own credibility. Timelines are of vital importance. Zorawar is a case in point.

Finally, if for any reason, import is deemed necessary, then, it is mandatory that the DRDO has to sign off on the proposal. Without the DRDO sign off, no import of weapons or systems can take place, period

[Manish_P]

...
The creep in the specs is because a newer system or an upgraded version of the older one has been deployed against India.

It is the right of the IA to ask for higher specs because the threats have increased or have changed
...

Chetak sir, They have the right to ask for improvement no doubt, but it's not like the enemy is going to completely change overnight and field the newer threat is it...

They are also going to take years to replace the legacy equipment and get it replaced with newer stuff.

For ex China may have fielded a 5th Gen figher a couple of years ago but their airforce will still constitute majorly of earlier Gen fighters for a decade or more atleast.

[chetak]

...
They are also going to take years to replace the legacy equipment and get it replaced with newer stuff.

For ex China may have fielded a 5th Gen figher a couple of years ago but their airforce will still constitute majorly of earlier Gen fighters for a decade or more atleast.

Manish ji,


It is unlikely that one will know what bag of surprises are in their pipeline or even coming down their pike.

Knowing that they may be watched, they will likely test new systems/upgrades in some obscure area of their country, far away from probing eyes and ears

People will mostly find out only at the deployment stage and by that time deployment will be done on a viably scaled basis so there is an urgent need to counter it while still maintaining our earlier gen systems to counter the larger and still potent threat posed by the bulk of their previous gen platforms.

during the kargil war, the pakis had deployed some systems that the Indian forces were totally unaware of. These systems were unmasked by the IN only after they flew operationally in those areas, including initiating of repeated provocative probing while using their very sophisticated on board sensors locate the precise locations of the paki sensors.

It was on such missions that they unexpectedly unearthed proof that the pakis had some hitherto unknown sophisticated systems in play. Electronic emissions were analysed in detail to identify these new systems.

The confirmed presence of these systems was most unexpected and resulted in some considerable consternation among the operations community....

To help the pakis, the amrikis, our very good "friends", very helpfully made sure that the GPS was completely unavailable in large swathes of area surrounding, and including the war zone, to prevent precision targeting by the IAF...which the pakis feared

This is the environment that the Indian Forces are working in and posters are talking like spec creep is a bad thing. It may be inconvenient to some but it is also inescapable because of the urgent need for dynamic adapting to counter high risk emerging situations.

just like we fondly imagine that a couple of squadrons of rafales will make an earth shattering difference in our capabilities and leave the cheen and the pakis shaking and quaking in their shalwars, we will also seek an immediate counter to their 5th gen fighters.

The arrival of the rafale in this region has upset both the cheen and the pakis and both have protested vehemently and publicly about an 'arms race" being started by a "hegemonistic" India

It takes just a few cheen 5th gen fighters to break though our air defence cordon to cause devastating damage say, to dilli, and then the international anti India narrative building brigades and our own dynast mafioso backed spiteful criticisms of the govt will take over to try and crush the national morale and spirit while pushing hard for a regime change, just saying onlee....

look at how things played out for the govt after the pulwama attack..... and the presstitute creeps who led the media assault then and SM onslaught which is being run even today

No one really knows where the red lines are and may well hesitate to find out the hard way

It's not an unlikely scenario that the incumbent govt may not be re elected or it may even fall soon enough, paving the way for a MOU signing, dimwit dynast led, and BIF over run, "opposition" to enforce a regime change

ditto scenario may play out across the border, if we used our own rafale as a spearhead..... again just saying onlee

we are now in the era of total warfare, a war that is unrestricted in terms of the weapons used, the territory or combatants involved, or the objectives pursued, especially one in which the laws of war are disregarded.

and it looks like our old fuddy duddys have yet to accept the reality of the evolution of a new type of battlefield and the emergence of an era of no rules or no holds barred narrative led efforts to achieve geopolitical pre-eminence or enforce territorial dominance...

And, the stakes have never been higher.......

[Manish_P]

Chetak ji, i get what you are trying to say. But how is our armed forces not ordering what has been developed so far and asking for the next thing going to help them now?

Even (super)powerhouse manufacturers in the US continued to develop, and their armed forces continued to place orders for, the improved versions of the F18, the F15s even after the F22 was developed and fully operational.

Or should we just tell ourselves the the Chinese have probably developed (and are hiding) hyperdrive equipped fighters and so nothing short of wrap speed capable fighters should be ordered by our forces.

[sanjayc]

The creep in the specs is because a newer system or an upgraded version of the older one has been deployed against India.
It is the right of the IA to ask for higher specs because the threats have increased or have changed

That is the classic mistake of making the "Best" the enemy of the "Good." If goal posts are constantly being shifted, when does the happy occasion arrive when some orders actually get placed? Actual acquisitions and deployments will always be behind the absolute state-of-the-art of the moment (because of the number of years involved in actual signing of the contract, production and eventual induction). Most products in the world always are somewhat obsolete by the time they get inducted -- that is the nature of the beast. If Chinese have a few Gen 5 fighters, they have thousands of gen 4 and gen 3 fighters too which will be used for attack. By pointing at a few Gen 5 fighters of China, stopping acquisition of Gen 4 fighters by India will be totally against common sense.

[nachiket]

So what exactly is the newer system deployed against India that led to the IA asking for a 55 tonne tank with 4 crew members plus an autoloader along with the armor specs of much heavier tanks?