Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

[ramana]

I read a paper on Dhanush 45 cal gun by Dr Lt Gen A . Mukherjee
It is truly a great achievement that provide a quick solution to IA artillery needs.

The key point is it had one shell burst due to a bad shell and a few muzzle strikes.
All these are rectified.

My view:
MoFu like Dinakar Peri of Hindu, Many Pubby, etc magnified the problems fed by drivel from the import lobby.

Wish someone would give chappal seva to them.
It was unconscionable to give an old shell for development trials and that blew up.
Storage pedigree is important.
The muzzle strikes are a function of barrel length and shell wobble.
So they ensured the proper muzzle diameter to avoid muzzle strike as it exits.

[YashG]

RoyG,

Is it the civil services, that has created the confusion within the Indian army about what guns it wants?

Or is the generals themselves?

I am sorry but, in this situation, the army is to be blamed 100%.

Both are working together to import. Many of the IAS officers are in habit of making huge sums throughout their service years through contracts they pass. This could be of the tune of 100s of crores per year - its like 5-10% of a 1200 crore flyover will go to bureasucrats, 5-10% to local MP, 5-10% for MLA + local party in power etc..all of this could equal 25-30% of the project cost. These IAS officers when they go to MoD cant be expected to suddenly give up their habit. The more potential to make money , the better the posting is considered. I'm not saying every but many. These babus make the core of import lobby, they go and further recruit other officials in forces to help them. Now this nexus is well developed. The go getters in between will be your lobbyists including the media, who are on the rolls of foreign vendors - russian, israelis, europeans, americans & also definitely now south koreans etc. each jostling to sell their wares.

Our Army generals are too intelligent to not understand what BRFites figure out. They knowingly sabotage indigensation with Babus taking the lead. That is how sanctions for research money is delayed, orders are not given, comical RFPs, RFQs are put out.

[Prem Kumar]

This is where Modi has err'ed, though its an error of omission

He thought that the babus, generals etc would change colors by simply seeing how selfless their PM is

That, by passing diktats like Atmanirbhar from the top, people will just obey

He assumed that carrot-n-stick was not needed

He thought that the solution was to snip-n-trim instead of rip-n-replace

He thought whatever worked in Gujarat will work in Delhi. People don't change, especially if they have built an ecosystem with huge monetary benefits accruing to themselves. It goes against the basic psychology of humans.

[YashG]

This is where Modi has err'ed, though its an error of omission

He thought that the babus, generals etc would change colors by simply seeing how selfless their PM is

That, by passing diktats like Atmanirbhar from the top, people will just obey

He assumed that carrot-n-stick was not needed

He thought that the solution was to snip-n-trim instead of rip-n-replace

He thought whatever worked in Gujarat will work in Delhi. People don't change, especially if they have built an ecosystem with huge monetary benefits accruing to themselves. It goes against the basic psychology of humans.

Reining in Babus needs political capital. It is not that Modi cannot rein in MoD babus. He had unprecedented political capital when he came in his second term. Modi has spent some political capital on defence (corporatisation of PSUs, pushing Mk1 down the throat of IAF - that congress cudnt ) but he has spent majority of his political capital on other things that improve his grip on power(that list very long). If modi had chosen to spend more capital on defence procurement, we would have already seen orders for LCH, larger order for ATAGS, larger order for Mk1A, faster allocation of research budgets for Mk2, MCA and what not.

[hgupta]

Reining in Babus needs political capital. It is not that Modi cannot rein in MoD babus. He had unprecedented political capital when he came in his second term. Modi has spent some political capital on defence (corporatisation of PSUs, pushing Mk1 down the throat of IAF - that congress cudnt ) but he has spent majority of his political capital on other things that improve his grip on power(that list very long). If modi had chosen to spend more capital on defence procurement, we would have already seen orders for LCH, larger order for ATAGS, larger order for Mk1A, faster allocation of research budgets for Mk2, MCA and what not.

I think he had bigger priorities to worry about such as the state of the economy and improving the infrastructure. You cannot tackle them all and to be fair, he appointed Parrikar to MoD who was able to ram the LCA Tejas down the throats of IAF. It was just his luck that Parrikar unfortunately got cancer and passed away before he was able to pursue other defence reforms.

[YashG]

Parrikar is deeply missed and 100/100 to modi for making that appointment.

[ashishvikas]

Indian Army to boost firepower with 200 new mounted howitzers, 400 towed gun systems

https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 127194630/

[chetak]

Indian Army to boost firepower with 200 new mounted howitzers, 400 towed gun systems

https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 127194630/

ashishvikas ji,


the pakis will definitely be very happy.

This is what broke their backs in kargil

This will also ruffle the cheeni feathers

[Prem Kumar]

1) 200 MGS with 105mm guns - this is clear. But doesn't say whether this will come up for the Nov 30 DAC meet
2) 400 towed systems - looks like this is in addition to the 307 ATAGS, for which the IA has already issued a tender. This is supposed to come for Nov 30 meet. Like we had discussed earlier in the thread, this might be a new design (God knows why!)

Glad to see some movement on this front. Hope Baba Kalyani wins #1 outright because his is the only firm that can claim to be IDDM on the MGS system. Anyone else, doing screwdrivergiri & calling it Make-in-India must be outright disqualified

[ernest]

The 105mm MGS catches me by surprise
LtGen Shankar had stated that there was no plan for 105 mm MGS in IA artillery in his video that caught much attention. Him being deeply involved with IA Artillery vision, made it really authoritative. Glad that it might not be the case

video link. He talks about it around 1:05 and much during the QnA part. Can't locate the exact timestamp.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlRgEfgHV1k

[Pratyush]

1) 200 MGS with 105mm guns - this is clear. But doesn't say whether this will come up for the Nov 30 DAC meet
2) 400 towed systems - looks like this is in addition to the 307 ATAGS, for which the IA has already issued a tender. This is supposed to come for Nov 30 meet. Like we had discussed earlier in the thread, this might be a new design (God knows why!)

Snip...

Unless the Indian army confirms. Don't be optimistic about the numbers going from 307 to 707.

[srin]

^^^ The article clearly mentions lighter weight, which is code for "anything other than ATAGS". I hope it is done under IDDM atleast (so Athos doesn't come in via backdoor).

[Prem Kumar]

^^ Whether the 400 is backdoor Athos or not, was the hotly debated topic here a few weeks back. Lets see what Nov 30 brings

[Prem Kumar]

The 105mm MGS catches me by surprise
LtGen Shankar had stated that there was no plan for 105 mm MGS in IA artillery in his video that caught much attention. Him being deeply involved with IA Artillery vision, made it really authoritative. Glad that it might not be the case

video link. He talks about it around 1:05 and much during the QnA part. Can't locate the exact timestamp.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlRgEfgHV1k

Well, if this comes up, then it shows that the good general is out of touch with the current thinking. It rankles me when he says in the video that the Artillery procurement system is fool-proof

[Pratyush]

^^^ The article clearly mentions lighter weight, which is code for "anything other than ATAGS". I hope it is done under IDDM atleast (so Athos doesn't come in via backdoor).

Re reading the article, you are right.

But the foolishness of the army is on full display with this additional 400 guns procurement.

The forces want a 52 calibre piece with weight lower than ATAGS and one can only assume the dimensions of Fh77. To be developed ab- initio. Over a gun that is unarguably the best in the world.

The only way this gets done on a timely basis will be for the erstwhile OFB to build Dhanush 52. But that's not really going to be that much lighter than the ATAGS.

For rest of the industry, it's a waste of time and effort.

[Pratyush]

Besides, the above. How does the army know that they will not be bringing any additional 155s to the war front from other theatres?

What is the plan to bring those guns?

That the ATAGS is an absolute no no.

[ernest]

Well, if this comes up, then it shows that the good general is out of touch with the current thinking. It rankles me when he says in the video that the Artillery procurement system is fool-proof

He was content with less than the levels of indigenization we expect here in BRF. So, I feel the same, and hope he is wrong about some details from the video.

[Rakesh]

Click on the first link below and read the comments. Hilarious!

https://x.com/SJha1618/status/1729829982346854451?s=20 ---> So, the DRDO developed 155mm/52 calibre Mounted Gun System (MGS) underwent firing trials at Pokhran. As you can see its cardinal performance compares very favourably with foreign competitors. VRDE is in the lead for this. The gun itself is an ATAGS derivative, obviously.

https://x.com/SJha1618/status/1729831306689688005?s=20 ---> The French CAESAR's 55 km figure is attained with a rocket assisted projectile. As far as just ERFB-BB rounds are concerned, the MGS outranges it comfortably.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/SJha1618/status/1729829982346854451?s=20 ---> So, the DRDO developed 155mm/52 calibre Mounted Gun System (MGS) underwent firing trials at Pokhran. As you can see its cardinal performance compares very favourably with foreign competitors. VRDE is in the lead for this. The gun itself is an ATAGS derivative, obviously.

https://x.com/SJha1618/status/1729831306689688005?s=20 ---> The French CAESAR's 55 km figure is attained with a rocket assisted projectile. As far as just ERFB-BB rounds are concerned, the MGS outranges it comfortably.

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1729 ... 25495?s=20 --->

+ Firing trials of MGS were carried out at the Pokhran Field Firing Range (PFFR), during September 2023.

+ Minimum and Maximum Range Firing, Series I & II–Consistency Firing, Arc of Fire, and Direct Firing were carried out during the trials at various sectors of the Pokhran Field Firing Range (PFFR).

+ All the tests were conducted considering various firing angles in elevation & azimuth and also all zones of firing.

[Pratyush]

It still needs to undergo trials on the Moon, Marianna trench, Mars, the surface of the sun, Pluto, demonstrate the ability to shoot Agni 5.

[Tanaji]

You forgot the part where it should be light enough to be man portable

[hnair]

From the specs posted by Rakesh, absolutely dig these highly practical aspects:

- Solid Stability gear, that too electro mechanical and not high-altitude unfriendly hydraulics or pneumatics.
- For Power Source: Can power another MGS (pretty solid feature since a lot of concerns is power loss from a drone/shrapnel proximity attack)
- Drives: All electric
- All India movement specs means optimized for Indian Railways deployments

Only quibble: a smaller arc of 30 degree azimuth firing from narrow mountain roads means surprises from random angles of fire or locations might be less for the enemy.

With those robust stabilizer outrigger legs a Silk Smitha among MGS, this!!

[drnayar]

If a foreign company had made this .. IA would have got this in a jiffy !!.. looks real bad a$$

[bala]

More on DRDO's MSG test firing and clearly outperforming videshi models @ 4:15 in YT ..
Indian Defence Analysis..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ps1KJ5E1Bws

[Prem Kumar]

Do these YouTube videos have any substance or are they just taking a tweet from Saurav Jha, make a video about it with lots of fillers - just to get some eyeballs?

Overall, I am ok with these videos because YT is a good way to reach more people and make them aware. But for knowledgeable folks, these don't add value

[Manish_P]

It still needs to undergo trials on the Moon, Marianna trench, Mars, the surface of the sun, Pluto, demonstrate the ability to shoot Agni 5.

Sometimes it seems that the only test a system needs to pass is the - '3M' or 'M-cube' test - 'Make Money for Middlemen'

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/SJha1618/status/1729829982346854451?s=20 ---> So, the DRDO developed 155mm/52 calibre Mounted Gun System (MGS) underwent firing trials at Pokhran. As you can see its cardinal performance compares very favourably with foreign competitors. VRDE is in the lead for this. The gun itself is an ATAGS derivative, obviously.

https://x.com/SJha1618/status/1729831306689688005?s=20 ---> The French CAESAR's 55 km figure is attained with a rocket assisted projectile. As far as just ERFB-BB rounds are concerned, the MGS outranges it comfortably.

https://x.com/SJha1618/status/1730133712460009674?s=20 ---> Look as far as the weight of the MGS is concerned, it is not very difficult to compute. Power to weight ratio has been given by DRDO. And BEML's prime mover has an engine rated at a certain kW as per its brochure. So, the gross vehicle weight for the MGS is very likely 32 tonnes which is comparable to the 8x8 155 mm/52 calibre CAESAR variant which is around 30 tonnes.

[Pratyush]

Who wants to bet that the Indian Army will ask the Indian product to lose 2 tons?

[Rakesh]

ATAGS Back in Action: The enhanced gun demonstrates its power during the Pokhran trials
https://defence.in/threads/atags-back-i ... rials.946/

[Rakesh]

Check out this video.

https://x.com/Bodbe6/status/1731317063396757983?s=20 ---> Ground too frozen to dig in.

[ashishvikas]

Dhanush Production Starts After Spare Part Prob Solved

Advance Weapons and Equipment India Limited (AWEIL) planning to deliver 26 new howitzers to the Indian Army during this financial year. This will take the total number of Dhanush guns with the Army to 50. There is an order to supply 114 guns in all.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 768682.cms

[Khalsa]

Great to hear that the Dhanush order.
Anyone have the latest the best numbers on total number of 130 mm cannons we had and how many are getting converted to 155 mm.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/rajatpTOI/status/1735568503007232311?s=20 ---> Defence Ministry inks a major Rs 5,336 crore contract with Bharat Electronics for procurement of Electronic Fuzes — which are an integral component of medium to heavy-calibre Artillery guns — for the Army for a period of 10 years.

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1735 ... 33895?s=20 ---> MoD signs a contract with Bharat Electronics Ltd for procurement of Electronic Fuzes for Indian Army for a period of 10 years for Rs 5,336 crore.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/writetake/status/1735558092413341730?s=20 ----> #BELBuzz

1. MoD has inked a pact with BEL for procurement of electronic fuses for #IndianArmy for a period of 10 years at cost of Rs 5,336.25 crore.

2. The aim of the project is to build up ammunition stocks to minimize imports.

3. Achieve self-sufficiency in ammunition manufacturing.

4. Obtain critical technologies and secure stock affected by supply chain disruption.

5. Electronic fuses are an integral component of medium to heavy caliber artillery guns which provides sustained artillery firepower for military operations.

6. The fuses will aid artillery guns which are capable of lethal engagements in various kinds of terrain including high altitude areas along the Northern borders.

7. The fuses will be manufactured by BEL at its Pune and Nagpur plants.

[mody]

https://www.msn.com/en-in/money/news/ad ... 04eb&ei=12

"Technology Behind Electronic Fuzes

A closer examination of fuze technology reveals three primary types: proximity fuze, activated above the ground; time fuze, activated at predetermined intervals post-launch; and percussion fuze, triggering ammunition for a set period after striking the target. The integration of intelligence into these fuzes transforms ordinary projectiles into smart, strategic assets, redefining the dynamics of military engagements."

"At the core of this initiative lies the recognition that the intelligence of a bomb is not solely in its explosive and iron components but in the sophistication of its fuze. The pursuit of smarter fuzes aligns with a broader mission – to ensure that every fired shell, often a significant financial investment, becomes a strategic and effective tool rather than a routine expenditure."

I recall that electronic fuzes and their indigenous development and manufacturing has been a favourite of @Ramana garu

[ramana]

Yes. BtW Adani has a small fuze factory with Germany collaboration.

Those guys are masters of Munitronics. The science of merging electronics and munitions.

[ramana]

https://www.msn.com/en-in/money/news/ad ... 04eb&ei=12

"Technology Behind Electronic Fuzes

A closer examination of fuze technology reveals three primary types: proximity fuze, activated above the ground; time fuze, activated at predetermined intervals post-launch; and percussion fuze, triggering ammunition for a set period after striking the target. The integration of intelligence into these fuzes transforms ordinary projectiles into smart, strategic assets, redefining the dynamics of military engagements."

"At the core of this initiative lies the recognition that the intelligence of a bomb is not solely in its explosive and iron components but in the sophistication of its fuze. The pursuit of smarter fuzes aligns with a broader mission – to ensure that every fired shell, often a significant financial investment, becomes a strategic and effective tool rather than a routine expenditure."

I recall that electronic fuzes and their indigenous development and manufacturing have been a favourite of @Ramana garu

This video at 4:00 to 6:00 minutes reports on the story. And from the graphics its the entire lie of artillery: guns and mortars are being fitted with the Electronic Fuzes. I see on Sikh officer and BEL chairman signing the contract. The amount of 5336 crores and 1.5 lakh man-hours shows how big is the contract.
The next fuze to look for is Adani's Top Gun made with Israeli collaboration.
There is also a fuze called TGm designed by DRDO.
With these, the ET story completes a 20-year Baghirathi quest!*
One more being developed is a miniature PF fuze for the 23mm shell as an anti-drone measure. This fuze will be fitted on the 30mm too to improve efficacy.
* CAG reported on the sorry state of fuzes in the Indian Army. Sometime in 1996 IA decided they wanted Electronic Fuzes to improve efficacy.
The procurement fat cats stopped all mech fuze orders from OFB and had to scrap the machinery. Meantime no plans to produce the ET fuzes.
Then IA started using Zelar fuze from South Africa. And got into a scam and they got blacklisted.
Finally, BEl took up the gauntlet and opened a fuze factory in Pune with collaboration from https://reshefuzes.com/. Sadly Pune is not qualified to do explosive handling. So that plant was opened in Nagpur.

Looks like all the stars have lined up and signed the order finally!!!

[Rakesh]

Regiment Diaries | Regiment of Artillery: The Combat Firepower of Indian Army

[ramana]

Was watching some YouTube videos on Ukraine.
The Ukrainians are reporting M777 barrel exchanges at 2500 rounds firing. Lot of intensive firing.

During IA trials one gun barrel had a shell blow up around 1150 rounds. Most likely a shell issue and not barrel issue as we can see in Ukraine.

This is good news.

[VinodTK]

As per the web site India Defense Analysis the trials for the Mounted Gun Systems (MGS) are completed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=124TbsWZQuY