Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

[Manish_P]

A section of IA decison makers were advancing the idea that India should buy from a production line outside India as a hedge against PLA destroying Indian mfg facilities!

They really said that. wow

Should have told them that the logic can be extended to all products the military uses - including personnel.

Might as well fire all of them and hire mercenaries.. we can have huge savings on pensions as well.

[Pratyush]

Does GSQR stand for Generic Sabotage of Qualitative Requirements?

Good one.

[Manish_P]

Does GSQR stand for Generic Sabotage of Qualitative Requirements?

Or Quantitative.

The requirements are framed in such an way that it is almost impossible to have the item in the quantity we need.

[basant]

^^^
The legend has it that they appear like numbers, and when you (appear to) achieve them, they change.

[YashG]

The import lobby is the real 0.5 front. It is hollowing our war preparations even before going to war.

[Pratyush]

Guys,

There is not going to be any imports for 155 mm howitzer.

We can crib about the forces trying to run the clock down to 24. But even then there is not going to be an import.

[Tanaji]

Guys,

There is not going to be any imports for 155 mm howitzer.

We can crib about the forces trying to run the clock down to 24. But even then there is not going to be an import.

Pratyushji,

IA has amply demonstrated the ability to cut its own nose to spite its face with Arjun and the current non procurement of guns beyond the imported ones at the cost of its own preparedness. It will happily keep the status quo of no gun except an imported one unless forced.

[Pratyush]

Which imported gun has hybrid systems, lazer propellent ignition and automated shell handling system, at under 12 tons?

Not even the ERCA has those features.

Not Athos,

Not anything else.

Unless they chose to forego 3 out of 4 features from the wishlist. They are not importing anything.

[Tanaji]

No they wont import anything. But they wont buy anything either, thats my point.

Besides IA has shown a marked willingness to relax requirements for foreign equipment in hope that it will come later. Refer to T90 saga.

The Chandigarh lobby attitude is that if I don’t make money, let everything burn.

[Pratyush]

Then we will lose the war with PRC.

[RoyG]

Which imported gun has hybrid systems, lazer propellent ignition and automated shell handling system, at under 12 tons?

Not even the ERCA has those features.

Not Athos,

Not anything else.

Unless they chose to forego 3 out of 4 features from the wishlist. They are not importing anything.

Don't bother. When people like Lt. Genius Gunnershot are justifying piecemeal orders and liken it to the purchase of clothing for children, it means the rot is very deep. Focus on the architecture which promotes this idiocy.

[Prem Kumar]

Then we will lose the war with PRC.

Yes. And the rot in Armed Forces leadership is so bad that they will let it happen. Or continue to live in la-la-land that the Great Powers (read U.S.A) will intervene and stop any war from lasting beyond 1 week (because they are not prepared for more than 1 week). And talk about "era of no-war", when Ukraine is happening in front of their eyes.

Or as always, count on the humble jawan to save their ass with his exceptional bravery against all odds (said odds being created by the leadership in the first place)

Lt Gen P Ravishankar, when I asked him about FARP on Twitter and our performance against it, said "There is no FARP". That's a verbatim quote.

So, the much touted FARP is as transient as fart.
What has taken its place? Nobody knows
Do we even have a written down artillery procurement plan? Nobody knows

This is the sad state of our artillery

[ramana]

No they wont import anything. But they wont buy anything either, thats my point.

Besides IA has shown a marked willingness to relax requirements for foreign equipment in hope that it will come later. Refer to T90 saga.

The Chandigarh lobby attitude is that if I don’t make money, let everything burn.

Chandigarh Lobby does not exist in isolation. It is the arms procurement corruption of the Congress system.
Do read Rajni Kothari's Congress system written in the 1960s.
Congress was the hub of many systems that operate in different sectors.
The demise of Gandhis from power made these ssytems independent so much so that an arms peddler went and threatened a sitting Army chief for a truck purchase.
And nothing happened to him!
So railing against the Chandigarh lobby without knowing who is its backer is futile.

[titash]

Then we will lose the war with PRC.

Yes. And the rot in Armed Forces leadership is so bad that they will let it happen. Or continue to live in la-la-land that the Great Powers (read U.S.A) will intervene and stop any war from lasting beyond 1 week (because they are not prepared for more than 1 week). And talk about "era of no-war", when Ukraine is happening in front of their eyes.

Or as always, count on the humble jawan to save their ass with his exceptional bravery against all odds (said odds being created by the leadership in the first place)

Lt Gen P Ravishankar, when I asked him about FARP on Twitter and our performance against it, said "There is no FARP". That's a verbatim quote.

So, the much touted FARP is as transient as fart.
What has taken its place? Nobody knows
Do we even have a written down artillery procurement plan? Nobody knows

This is the sad state of our artillery

Prem Kumar-ji,

The video by Lt. Gen. P. R. Shankar is very clear on the 'what' and the 'why':

Artillery has been committed to the "Artillery Profile 2017" and "Artillery Profile 2027" documents since the early 2000s. There is no document called the "Field Artillery Rationalization Plan (FARP)". Its a figment of the media's imagination. This is from the horse's mouth itself...the man who wrote both those documents

It's not all doom and gloom; he makes quite a few points that should make BRF pause and think a bit:

1) The DRDO ATAGS is from a brand new "design house" with no prior experience. The plan was to hedge bets by buying 300 odd guns from multiple sources to prevent block obsolescence. They created a good 155/52 gun but they were unable to keep the weight down, but the IA is committed to acquiring 307 guns of this design to be used in the plains. These will come online in the next 5 years.

2) The next-gen gun RFP is also for a lighter gun but will be purchased with 300-400 units only to incorporate newer technologies + prevent block obsolescence. These will come online only in the next 10 years. There is some logic here...iterative designs + new technologies = a continually challenged and upskilled workforce.

3) The IA is moving to an all-155mm force with all locally procured guns + locally procured propellent charges + locally procured fuses. All 155 mm guns to be procured over the next 5 years are built in India (200 K9 + 307 ATAGS + 114-414 Dhanush + 300 Sharang). That's about 1000+ guns right there if you don't count the ~300 existing FH77 Bofors

4) The 114-414 Dhanush orders depend on production issues being resolved (not design issues)...that's an OFB problem that hopefully corporatization has solved. Ultimately if the politicians want it, nothing can stop the Dhanush line churning out guns.

5) India today has more artillery capacity than ALL of EU's NATO members put together.

[Tanaji]

Fair enough Ramanaji and I get that this was also one of the prime sources of funding for the famiglia. But it has now been 10 years. High time that this gets dismantled from our absolutely critical areas of the nation non?

I think the tactic that is being followed is Atmanirbhata with the hopes that this poisonous weed will be starved of funding, wither away and die. However its stranglehold is such that it is determined to take the host with it.

[RoyG]

Yes. And the rot in Armed Forces leadership is so bad that they will let it happen. Or continue to live in la-la-land that the Great Powers (read U.S.A) will intervene and stop any war from lasting beyond 1 week (because they are not prepared for more than 1 week). And talk about "era of no-war", when Ukraine is happening in front of their eyes.

Or as always, count on the humble jawan to save their ass with his exceptional bravery against all odds (said odds being created by the leadership in the first place)

Lt Gen P Ravishankar, when I asked him about FARP on Twitter and our performance against it, said "There is no FARP". That's a verbatim quote.

So, the much touted FARP is as transient as fart.
What has taken its place? Nobody knows
Do we even have a written down artillery procurement plan? Nobody knows

This is the sad state of our artillery

Prem Kumar-ji,

The video by Lt. Gen. P. R. Shankar is very clear on the 'what' and the 'why':

Artillery has been committed to the "Artillery Profile 2017" and "Artillery Profile 2027" documents since the early 2000s. There is no document called the "Field Artillery Rationalization Plan (FARP)". Its a figment of the media's imagination. This is from the horse's mouth itself...the man who wrote both those documents

It's not all doom and gloom; he makes quite a few points that should make BRF pause and think a bit:

1) The DRDO ATAGS is from a brand new "design house" with no prior experience. The plan was to hedge bets by buying 300 odd guns from multiple sources to prevent block obsolescence. They created a good 155/52 gun but they were unable to keep the weight down, but the IA is committed to acquiring 307 guns of this design to be used in the plains. These will come online in the next 5 years.

2) The next-gen gun RFP is also for a lighter gun but will be purchased with 300-400 units only to incorporate newer technologies + prevent block obsolescence. These will come online only in the next 10 years. There is some logic here...iterative designs + new technologies = a continually challenged and upskilled workforce.

3) The IA is moving to an all-155mm force with all locally procured guns + locally procured propellent charges + locally procured fuses. All 155 mm guns to be procured over the next 5 years are built in India (200 K9 + 307 ATAGS + 114-414 Dhanush + 300 Sharang). That's about 1000+ guns right there if you don't count the ~300 existing FH77 Bofors

4) The 114-414 Dhanush orders depend on production issues being resolved (not design issues)...that's an OFB problem that hopefully corporatization has solved. Ultimately if the politicians want it, nothing can stop the Dhanush line churning out guns.

5) India today has more artillery capacity than ALL of EU's NATO members put together.

You're not getting it. This is about stabilizing a platform in this decade and in adequate numbers. Not playing this bullshit game of going here and there whenever you feel like it and giving piecemeal orders. This isn't like buying clothes for children like the good gen likes to think. You need to have a clear plan and put it on paper for everyone to see.

Good gen says he wants the best. Evolution of an existing product will get you there. Not fcking around and starting from scratch with super duper technologies..

And one another thing, if I here this bullsht about having more than EU one more time I'll have no choice but to smack the shit out of that person. Apart from Russia who else is there for them to fight? They don't have to deal with a sino pak type relationship and they know Russia will never dare set foot into a NATO country after the headache of dealing with a third rate Ukrainian army.

He mentioned this fact as though to say we are fine. Never heard something so stupid. Look at your own requirements and what you need to win.

We need an Indian gun in numbers, and we need it NOW.

[vera_k]

Possible that this is a political matter. China justifies arming itself to the teeth because of their reunification agenda. India has no equivalent, and that lends itself to limiting the amount of desired capability.

[ramana]

How about defending against China which is armed to the teeth and some?

[Atmavik]

Kalyani Lineup of artillery Gun. i am amazed as to how this company pours in money without orders.

https://twitter.com/lca_tejas_/status/1 ... 92/photo/1

[Manish_P]

Kalyani Lineup of artillery Gun. i am amazed as to how this company pours in money without orders.
..

I do hope they get lots of orders from abroad (Africa, Gulf,..).. so that they survive and thrive. And are there, when push comes to shove for us.

[Pratyush]

The interesting thing about the Kalyani lineup is the weight of both Bharat 52 and ATAGS.

Note that Bharat 52 lacks the shell handling crane. Whereas, the ATAGS has a crane for 5 shells.

What this is telling me, that ATAGS is a optimised as it can be on the basis of its current mount.

Is it possible to design a different kind of mount for ATAGS barrel?

Yes.

Will it have the performance of the current mount?

I don't know.

But as is usual for the army. Bird in bush is worth several birds in hand. Because, within India, we have the following towed guns available.

1) 6 towed guns from Kalyani.
2) 2 from the erstwhile OFB.
3) 1 From TATA.


None of them are suitable for the Indian army.

They want something totally new.

[titash]

Folks,

There are a couple of good videos I highly recommend to watch: Sandad TV interviewing some very knowledgeable artillery officers

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l11NFARJpUY[/youtube] for Dhanush gun

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSoNQFyjt-4[/youtube] for Sharang gun

These gentlemen:
(1) have way more insights than us - in fact they go into details on the how & why of acquisition
(2) do not share the pessimistic outlook that has been showcased in the last several posts
(3) clearly support an artillery that is make-in-india
(4) Gen. Saxena has very stellar record - he pushed the Akash into IA service and is a vocal technologist and proponent of indigenization
(5) Gen. Chakravorthy wrote the Artillery Profile 2027 document and was deeply involved in the planning and acquisition

To be clear, its not about supporting Kalyani's product profile. It's about getting the army the guns it wants/needs and having them made in india

We have 1000 off M-46 guns in service. It costs peanuts (1-2 cr. each) to upgrade them to 155/45. The gun is much loved for its simplicity and ruggedness. There is no need to buy new Kalyani guns for 10x the price to get the exact same capability. We are going in for 300 but can convert all 1000 if push comes to shove

There are still 300 odd FH-77 (bofors) in service. Dhanush is the next logical step and the gun has been through all trials possible and is successful. The army wants this gun. If OFB can make 114 and resolve all production/quality issues, then the army can keep ordering these for decades

Because of the success of Sharang & Dhanush, there is no need for yet another older-design 155mm gun from the Kalyani stable. That's the reality

The ATAGS is a new design with new technologies/capabilities that Sharang & Dhanush didn't bring to the table...52 cal / large chamber / zone 7 charge / multi-round burst, etc. It's the quintessential TFTA AmirKhan gun but it's overweight and cannot be used in the mountains. Hence ordering 300 guns for the Paki front where it can pulverize the competition

More guns are needed. But not the (successful) older designs...we have enough of those with 300 bofors + 200 soltam + 300 sharang + 114-414 dhanush. Newer designs are needed that bring the ATAGS-like capability but preferably with lesser weight for use in the mountains. Also need precision guided ammunition

All-in-All, we are over the hump.
1) In the IA, it is the Artillery that has promoted indigenization
2) The Artillery is happy with the fact that it's finally getting new guns after 30+ years
3) The Artillery is supporting multiple local players (Tata, Kalyani (ATAGS) + OFB (Dhanush) + OFB (Sharang) + L&T (K9) + Mahindra, Punj Lloyd for subcomponents + various Ammunition & Electronic fuze factories)
4) The Artillery is actually making progress towards its "Artillery Profile 2027" document

Not sure why we should continue berating ourselves.

[fanne]

We have 1000 off M-46 guns in service. It costs peanuts (1-2 cr. each) to upgrade them to 155/45.

The last report said,it costs 70 lakh per gun, peanuts really. We can have 1000 M-46 converted (what will you do with M-46 ammo stockpile, I guess we will keep decent amount of M-46) for 700 carores, or less than 100 million USD. The only if is that the OFB keeps on screwing this up.

[bala]

Not sure why we should continue berating ourselves.

Yes, titash ji, I agree with your post. I think you captured the gist, no imports all indigenous and appropriate cost. There are some teething issues with OFB, which they should resolve quickly and move on.

India's artillery gun needs are in the range of 3000+ not 1000 and this is required for both China and Pukes. I hope there are add on orders soon.

BTW for Youtube please paste only the string: l11NFARJpUY or lSoNQFyjt-4 between the tags for youtube.

[Atmavik]

Not sure why we should continue berating ourselves.

The plan you have outlined is a good one and I will not argue against it. The crucial ingredient missing is support for pvt MIC

I have been on this forum for more than a decade and here are the problems that kept repeating before 2014

1. DPSUs have a sarkari culture that never adheres to timelines
2. QC is horrendous
3. Costs are never brought down and keep increasing
4. No or little R & D in dpsu
5. Customer support is bad
6. Exports remain a dream

Many of these problems would be addressed by bringing in pvt sector as they are structuraly better suited. I am disappointed that the pvt sector is finally ready but the forces now seem to prefer the dpsus

Also we don’t have endless time. Elections will eventually bring in new govt who will kill of the pvt sector to suit there needs. We need the pvt sector developing and becoming part of the system

[titash]

Not sure why we should continue berating ourselves.

The plan you have outlined is a good one and I will not argue against it. The crucial ingredient missing is support for pvt MIC

I have been on this forum for more than a decade and here are the problems that kept repeating before 2014

1. DPSUs have a sarkari culture that never adheres to timelines
2. QC is horrendous
3. Costs are never brought down and keep increasing
4. No or little R & D in dpsu
5. Customer support is bad
6. Exports remain a dream

Many of these problems would be addressed by bringing in pvt sector as they are structuraly better suited. I am disappointed that the pvt sector is finally ready but the forces now seem to prefer the dpsus

Also we don’t have endless time. Elections will eventually bring in new govt who will kill of the pvt sector to suit there needs. We need the pvt sector developing and becoming part of the system

Sirjee,

To be sure, all these Artillery Generals agree on two things:

1) Things really took off after 2014
2) Parrikar was the man who got things over the hump

People don't really understand that Modi-ji has been the single most impactful leader India has had in the last 75 years. He has single-handedly provided a vision and gotten everyone on-board + aligned to that vision. He has appointed people who can make it happen...be it Aadhar, Railways, Defence, etc.

The DPSUs & OFBs have been tamed, the IA/IAF have been arm-twisted into supporting indigenization, the pension bill sword of Damocles has been blunted via Agniveer, and a young motivated citizenry and private sector businesses/startups are seeing their aspirations come true for the first time in 75 years. People are inspired and asking "what do you mean we can't" instead of "how can we dare to".

These are structural changes that will have an impact over the next century. Even 10 years of Rahul Gandhi cannot roll back people's desires once they have been awakened, for the simple reason that people will say "During Modi-ji's time we used to make and export XXX and were rich and secure, but now..."

People have tasted blood / good governance for the first time ever in their lives. Hard to take that away now.

[williams]

All that said if these lobbies are real and are sabotaging self-reliance for selfish gains, we need agencies of good caliber to find the bad apples and counter these lobbies. If the PSUs have bad apples they also should be held accountable. We are talking about national security here, no way we can lie down and accept the status quo.

[Pratyush]

Some of the arguments being presented justifying the attitude of the army in this thread are beyond ridiculous.

ATAGS has a problem, because it was designed by a house with no prior experience.

If this is the case, why the hell, the Indian army waste every one's time, with years of user testing?

The damm gun was designed as an ab initio effort. The army had embedded officers for project supervision and oversight. What were those men doing, that the end product is unacceptable to the army?

The M46 upgrade program was a stop gap effort. In order to by pass the issue of blacklisted vendors. Since when, has the upgrade itself become a preferred solution?

If it's because of cost?

Then why even bother to upgrade the guns. The simple M46 can be operated without any upgrades. Money saved, No?

While we are talking about saving money, why not just surrender, it will save the nation a lot of money?

[srin]

The original M46 had a problem with elevation - I think it has a max elevation of only 45 degrees or so. Not sure if Sharang upgrade has fixed it or if it retains this issue. This would create problems in mountainous regions where you need to clear high ridge lines and hit the leeward side.

[YashG]

No they wont import anything. But they wont buy anything either, thats my point.

Besides IA has shown a marked willingness to relax requirements for foreign equipment in hope that it will come later. Refer to T90 saga.

The Chandigarh lobby attitude is that if I don’t make money, let everything burn.

Chandigarh Lobby does not exist in isolation. It is the arms procurement corruption of the Congress system.
Do read Rajni Kothari's Congress system written in the 1960s.
Congress was the hub of many systems that operate in different sectors.
The demise of Gandhis from power made these ssytems independent so much so that an arms peddler went and threatened a sitting Army chief for a truck purchase.
And nothing happened to him!
So railing against the Chandigarh lobby without knowing who is its backer is futile.

Sirjee congress was definitely involved in importing stuff but congress is not in power anymore - to be specific congress is now powerless and has very little influence on any policy institute. They cant even save their own leader from being convicted even. Far from being able t do anything for import lobby. From courts, to economic & policy institutions, media - just about everything is controlled by the present government. Congress is truly powerless and so are their supporters. So import lobby cant get any support from their congress origins.

This lobby resides inside MoD making comissions and needs no congress support - Bureaucracy is its own power centre that government doesnt want to miff yet. Atleast not directly yet.

[titash]

Some of the arguments being presented justifying the attitude of the army in this thread are beyond ridiculous.

Not really. The arguments are quite logical. Request you to watch the interviews from Sansad TV and Gunners Shot.

ATAGS has a problem, because it was designed by a house with no prior experience.

If this is the case, why the hell, the Indian army waste every one's time, with years of user testing?

The damm gun was designed as an ab initio effort. The army had embedded officers for project supervision and oversight. What were those men doing, that the end product is unacceptable to the army?

Wrong on multiple counts.

1) It is a fact that DRDO has not designed artillery before. Its a brand new design house as far as the end-user is concerned. Just like Hyundai & Kia selling cars in the US in the mid-2000s, people are skeptical and risk averse at first

2) No one has wasted anyone's time. The DRDO has delivered it's first gun. Rigorous testing has identified what works and what doesn't and what can/cannot be improved. Any product development has to go through this iterative cycle. The IA has accepted that the ATAGS bring capabilities that no other gun does, and has ordered 307 ATAGS. Armenia has also ordered 90. That IA says that since the gun is too heavy/unwieldy it won't be ordered in the 1000s...which is actually quite reasonable

3) The army does not have gun designers or metallurgical engineers. They can write the specs and be part of testing/certification. But in the event the design/metallurgy engineers come back and say that we will deliver a long-range 155/52 howitzer but cannot go below 18 tons, what are the IA folks going to say? "Stop all work and import 1000 guns from Israel" or "Build 2-3 prototypes and we'll test them and see how many we can order"? The no-brainer decision has been made to build-test-order-operate-iterate. All in 3 years time mind you (not 30 like the LCA Tejas).

The M46 upgrade program was a stop gap effort. In order to by pass the issue of blacklisted vendors. Since when, has the upgrade itself become a preferred solution?

If it's because of cost?

Then why even bother to upgrade the guns. The simple M46 can be operated without any upgrades. Money saved, No?

Again - wrong on multiple counts

1) Who says the M-46 conversations were a stop gap? The gun itself is a lump of steel. They have been in service since the mid 1970s. They are being upgraded in the 2020s after 50 years. They will serve another 25-50 years if needed.

2) The M-46 is a robust, simple-to-operate, simple-to-maintain, and well-liked gun. See the testimonials from the Artillery folks in the 2 Sansad TV videos. The upgrade makes sense and is cheap. What else do you want?

3) Cost, in any defence procurement, is a make-or-break factor no matter how you skin it.

4) Why bother to upgrade the guns? Simple - the army has decided to standardize on 155mm caliber for range, lethality, & ammo standardization. That's why.

While we are talking about saving money, why not just surrender, it will save the nation a lot of money?

Now we're talking

[JTull]

A cash rich company that's achieved that status by being careful with capital will become a target for hostile takeover leveraging the buyout with the same cash.

Soney ki chidiya. Let's save money for invaders and looters.

[Prem Kumar]

Titash: happy to see your arguments. But you are wrong on at least 1 count. The IA has not ordered 307 ATAGS. You, like Lt Gen Ravishankar, are mixing up potential orders with actual ones.

Even the FARP had grandiose plans. Most did not materialize

[Pratyush]

Not really. The arguments are quite logical. Request you to watch the interviews from Sansad TV and Gunners Shot.

That's the reason why I consider those reasons to be ridiculous.

Wrong on multiple counts.

1) It is a fact that DRDO has not designed artillery before. Its a brand new design house as far as the end-user is concerned. Just like Hyundai & Kia selling cars in the US in the mid-2000s, people are skeptical and risk averse at first.

1) A military equipment is not available off the shelf. It's nearly always purpose built.

It doesn't matter if the design house has any prior experience. What matters is the quality and service ability of the end product.

More so, when the end user has never even issued the GSQR for the product.

We have not seen any indication that the basic product is deficient for the intended purpose.

Beyond the ex post facto army demand for a 15 ton gun.

Again - wrong on multiple counts

1) Who says the M-46 conversations were a stop gap? The gun itself is a lump of steel. They have been in service since the mid 1970s. They are being upgraded in the 2020s after 50 years. They will serve another 25-50 years if needed.

2) The M-46 is a robust, simple-to-operate, simple-to-maintain, and well-liked gun. See the testimonials from the Artillery folks in the 2 Sansad TV videos. The upgrade makes sense and is cheap. What else do you want?

3) Cost, in any defence procurement, is a make-or-break factor no matter how you skin it.

4) Why bother to upgrade the guns? Simple - the army has decided to standardize on 155mm caliber for range, lethality, & ammo standardization. That's why.

If the upgraded gun was not a stop gap and was meant to be main arty piece for the Indian army.

Then the following conclusions follow.

1) the demand of 52 calibre arty with shell handling system is not a justified demand. As an upgraded M46 / 45 is an excellent and cost effective solution.

2) The India army's insistence on the procurement of Athos or even the new fangled below 12 ton howitzers is also not justified.

3) Shoot and scoot capacity is not required.

I can go on and on, but you get the drift.

[Pratyush]

One more thing.

Taking the design house argument to the logical conclusion.

No design house in India has ever designed a gun with the following characteristics.

1) Hybrid systems.
2) Lazer Ignition.
3) Below 12 ton in weight.
4) Automatic Shell Handling system.

So why should the nation have any confidence;

1) In the design house to diliver to the specifications.

2) in the Indian Armies ability to competently evaluate the end product.

Because, neither the Design House or the end user have ever seen what the end product looks or performs like.

[bala]

Pratyush ji, what about range of ATAGS. The army was mighty pleased with range up to 48 km demonstrated even though the spec was 42km or so. Range is very important for artillery for the Indian army. The weight issue cropped up recently, but the army is fine using ATAGS in the plains. There are some other teething issues and cost haggling since Tatas and Bharat forge are involved in some parts of ATAGS. We need to wait to see a firm order of 300+ for ATAGS.

[ramana]

The IA has lots of M-46 bought in the 1990s. The gun carriage is very robust and can handle the new barrel. In fact, the Soltum upgrade sues to hit the muzzle brake and explode.
We haven't heard of Sarang doing the same as they have widened the muzzle opening to avoid the wobble.
Its only handicap is the gun carriage acts like a howitzer and limits the elevation or else the breech hits the ground. So it's deployed in the plains as it might not clear the mountain crests.
So most of the M-46 will get the upgrade. It is very affordable and even better it works.
I saw the pride in the chief designer's face as he described the features.

[ramana]

Titash and Pratyush, Have you seen the third list of banned imports?

Palki Sharma says it includes artillery.

[ramana]

List of 101 items banned along with timeline

https://psuwatch.com/defencewatch/list- ... of-defence

[Pratyush]

I have seen the third list.

That is the reason why, a few days ago I posted that Athos is not getting imported.