Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

[Philip]

Yes,point about the MBRLs.Silence about their availability in the spat. Was wondering about it.

[ks_sachin]

Yes,point about the MBRLs.Silence about their availability in the spat. Was wondering about it.

Who had the spat with whom?

[mody]

Karan small correction, the order for Dhanush is for 114 guns and not 144. I think about 12 guns have been produced so far.

Sharang is an upgrade to 155mm 45 caliber from the existing 130mm/45 caliber.
180 of these guns were earlier upgraded by Soltam of Israel and these are in service for over 10 years now.
The Sharang is an OFB upgrade of the guns and is better then the one carried out by Soltam.
The cost of the upgrade is approximately 75-80 Lakhs per gun, which is very cheap.
The original plan was to upgrade about 600 M46 guns to 155mm. As per the same the first batch of 180 guns were upgraded by Soltam. Then in the blacklisting frenzy of the mid 2000s, Soltam too was blacklisted and the upgrade carried out by Soltam also wasn't very satisfactory.

The current order for Sharang is for 300 guns, placed with OFB. Vehicles factory Jabalpur and OFB Kanpur, both are going to be upgrading the guns.
If the results are good, which I think they are (as per all reports, IA has been happy with the performance during the trials and also happy with the price), there might be a repeat order for another 300 guns.
The upgrade also adds a hydraulic rammer in place of a manual one in the original M46 guns, but the Sharang still lacks the level of automation that Dhanush and other modern guns offer. Also, the maximum angle of fire is lower. The manpower required for operating the gun is also 8-9 personnel, which is quite high (will probably reduce by 1 no, as compared to the 130mm M46 guns). Hence, these guns will not be as effective as the other 155mm guns that we are inducting/developing. They also lack the shoot and scoot capability.
However, given the low cost, makes sense to make up the numbers currently.

Also, the export potential of the upgrade program should be pursued. A lot of the old soviet republics and other countries like Vietnam have these guns. The OFB upgrade is both cheap and effective. Plus we would also be able to export the ammunition and bi-modular charge etc., as none of the countries using the old M46, field 155mm guns. We can also offer the WLR-Swathi radar to complete the picture and then pitch the more modern Dhanush or BF-Bharat-52 guns as well.

[tsarkar]

DRDO or BEL never got full TOT for Flycatcher. Nor has it been used in Atulya. Inspired, sure. But not a one on one copy or TOT'ed product. In fact several items were either replaced with local parts or other equivalents indigenized by BEL, DRDO in the original Flycatcher itself.
Similarly all the other TOT agreements - there is always some subsystem missing or component denied or OEM IP which the system integrator can't provide in key areas.

Without ToT how was the Flycatcher integrated with the Trishul missile? You can see the Flycatcher radar atop the Trishul carrier.





Multiple indigenous modernizations of Flycatcher, again not possible without ToT, resulted in overall complete replacement that we now see as Atulya.

Its called the grandfather's axe syndrome. Grandfather had an axe. Father replaced the shaft. I replaced the blade. So is the axe old or new?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

It is supposed that the famous ship sailed by the hero Theseus in a great battle was kept in a harbor as a museum piece, and as the years went by some of the wooden parts began to rot and were replaced by new ones; then, after a century or so, every part had been replaced. The question then is if the "restored" ship is still the same object as the original.

[vivek_ahuja]

The K-9s aren't the only game in town. You have Smerch regiments and also Pinaka regiments.

Yes, for the larger units, I can see this working. But these are more for area targets, aren't they? What if you need to take out a specific bunker strongpoint, for example. Mobile tube artillery is supposed to be more precise for such tasks, if I remember correctly?

Or have the Pinaka rockets been enhanced to provide equivalent accuracy and penetration power as the tube artillery?

[Anoop]

https://youtu.be/dAB26xAAgw0

Informative talk by Lt. Gen Shankar, ex-DG Artillery. Talks quite a bit about the hardware, including Pinaka ER, Brahmos and about tube artillery like Sharang and Dhanush. Interesting response towards the end about C&C as well as integration of ACCCS and the IAF network.

[jamwal]

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 115375.cms
Barrel burst sets back army’s advanced howitzer programme

Development of the advanced towed artillery gun systems (ATAGS) suffered a setback after barrel of one of the pieces undergoing trials burst during test fires at Pokhran firing range in Rajasthan on Saturday.
The system which is of 155x52 mm calibre has been designed by Pune’s Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE), a laboratory of DRDO. The guns have been made by Bharat Forge and Tata Power’s Special Equipment Division (SED). The barrel in both the guns has been made by Bharat Forge.
It is learnt one of shells burst within the barrel, damaging the gun. This is expected to throw back the whole process. A similar incident happened thrice with Dhanush— the 155x45 calibre gun made by ordnance factories on the lines of the Swedish Bofors— and also in one of the M-777 guns that were brought from US.
An officer of project director’s level in the ARDE contacted by TOI refused to comment saying the matter could not be discussed in public forum. A spokesperson of Bharat Forge said none of the guns made by the company had been damaged in any of the incidents.
Tata Group also declined to comment on the report. Sources familiar with the matter, however, said, it’s a development process where multiple players are working together. They are committed to finding the cause and building the gun.
A senior DRDO scientist, who is aware of the development, said, “The incident took place when the last round was fired. Before carrying out any trial, the gun is thoroughly checked. In this case too it must have been done. This was not the first trial. It has performed remarkably well in high altitude trial in Sikkim. The gun has met all parameters so far during previous trials. If there is any minor defect, it can be addressed easily.”
It is also being argued that faulty ammunition may have led to the incident. The ammunition has been supplied by the ordnance factories.
Another DRDO scientist requesting anonymity said, “This is not the first time such an incident has happened with any gun. It would be difficult to pinpoint the exact cause until the thorough investigation is done.” DRDO will form an expert committee which would examine quality of ammunition, condition of barrel, and aspects like deviation in handling of the barrel during trial. Sub-standard ammunition has often caused problems during trials, the source said.

[nam]

BF is not the only entity producing the barrel. It is also produced by OFB.

[Prem Kumar]

Misleading headline. In the article, it talks about the shell bursting inside the barrel & not the barrel bursting. Initial report looks like faulty OFB shell. Seems to happen with a disturbing frequency.

Hope the IA gives the same leeway to ATAGS like they did to M777 when the shell burst inside the barrel of the latter

[ramana]

BF is not the only entity producing the barrel. It is also produced by OFB.

The ATAGS both models have barrels made by Bharat Forge is what the article is saying.

OFB makes barrels for their guns like Dhanush and Sarang, spare barrels for Bofors.

However, all shells are OFB made.

[ramana]

Would like to know a few things:
1) How many shells were fired from the suspect gun?
2) What was the vinatge of the shell? Year of mfg and the fuze?
3) What are the bore dimension of the remaining intact barrel?
4) What wass the pedigree of the Charge? Was it a quick burn creating too much energy?


Looks like its the Tata gun as BF said none of their guns were invovled.

A spokesperson of Bharat Forge said none of the guns made by the company had been damaged in any of the incidents.
Tata Group also declined to comment on the report.

and this one takes the cake!

A senior DRDO scientist, who is aware of the development, said, “The incident took place when the last round was fired...

Obviously as you cant fire any more no?
Should have phrased it better.

[manjgu]

Would like to know a few things:
1) How many shells were fired from the suspect gun?
2) What was the vinatge of the shell? Year of mfg and the fuze?
3) What are the bore dimension of the remaining intact barrel?
4) What wass the pedigree of the Charge? Was it a quick burn creating too much energy?


Looks like its the Tata gun as BF said none of their guns were invovled.

A spokesperson of Bharat Forge said none of the guns made by the company had been damaged in any of the incidents.
Tata Group also declined to comment on the report.

and this one takes the cake!

A senior DRDO scientist, who is aware of the development, said, “The incident took place when the last round was fired...

Obviously as you cant fire any more no?
Should have phrased it better.

not necessarily...if they planned to fire 100 shells and 99 went ok ? surely they know the number of shells to be fired as per test case??

[nam]

The ATAGS both models have barrels made by Bharat Forge is what the article is saying.

OFB makes barrels for their guns like Dhanush and Sarang, spare barrels for Bofors.

However, all shells are OFB made.

ATAGS barrel is also made by OFB, along with BF. Cannot say if the barrel for the prototypes being tested was by OFB.

OFB making barrel is a way to prevent them from creating trouble in MoD..

[ramana]

Could be..
However that news report said barrels for both models are by Bharat Forge.

The guns have been made by Bharat Forge and Tata Power’s Special Equipment Division (SED). The barrel in both the guns has been made by Bharat Forge.

[nam]

BF showcasing ATAGS in all it's glory. Notice the TFTA autoloading system.. The massive breach for 25 lt chamber

https://twitter.com/activator_n/status/ ... 8612729864

[sum]

The truck towing it( Ashok Leyland/Tata ) looks so puny when towing it.

Seems a huge gun!

[Barath]

https://twitter.com/activator_n/status/ ... 8612729864

What on earth makes it the future battleship solution ? Is it just a typo for battlefield ? Or do they have naval ambitions ?

[shaun]

Would like to know a few things:
1) How many shells were fired from the suspect gun?
2) What was the vinatge of the shell? Year of mfg and the fuze?
3) What are the bore dimension of the remaining intact barrel?
4) What wass the pedigree of the Charge? Was it a quick burn creating too much energy?


Looks like its the Tata gun as BF said none of their guns were invovled.

A spokesperson of Bharat Forge said none of the guns made by the company had been damaged in any of the incidents.
Tata Group also declined to comment on the report.

and this one takes the cake!

A senior DRDO scientist, who is aware of the development, said, “The incident took place when the last round was fired...

Obviously as you cant fire any more no?
Should have phrased it better.

The affect of Black listing Denel still hunting ..it's subsidiary company though handed over the design to produce ammunition for 155 mm guns ,it seems Nalanda OFB with HERML still have issues producing the same

[Vips]

Artillery shells broke up within barrels during recent misfires.

Misfires have been reported over the last five months in two artillery guns, US’ M777 howitzers recently delivered to India, and the home made Dhanush, modelled on the Swedish Bofors. In all these incidents between May and September, the shell did not explode, but had fractured within the barrel before coming out, probably due to pressure.

The shell had hit the muzzle of Dhanush’s barrel during test fires in May and July. The muzzle, which is on the top of the barrel was damaged in the incident. A similar incident was reported in the American M777 ultralight howitzers on September 2. Sources say the damage to M777 was much more severe as compared to Dhanush. The first batch of 25 M777s were delivered by BAE Systems in May this year.

However, it is too early to say whether the shell or the gun is faulty, say sources involved in the matter. The Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) has said a joint investigation is underway in the M777 incident. Primary investigation into May’s incident with the Dhanush points to problems in the shell. Now, the entire case is being studied with a fresh perspective, said sources. This is a peculiar situation, say experts involved in the case, as shell fracturing is not common.

Artillery shells used by the Army are manufactured in ordnance factories located across Vidarbha. The shells are made in the ordnance factory at Ambazari and the explosives are manufactured at Bhandara. In all the three incidents, the shells used were made by the ordnance factories. Now, due to the similar problems, a relation is being suspected in all the cases.

In 2013 too, there had been a barrel burst in the Dhanush. It had led to major damage to the barrel but there were no casualties. At that time, it was a rouge ammunition that had burst within the barrel, says the report.

Data accessed by TOI shows that there were cases of muzzle hit and barrel burst in the original Bofors too. In three instances, ‘bore premature’ has been mentioned as the reason. This means the shell exploded prematurely, within the barrel. There are a couple of reports in which the inquiry says that neither the gun nor ammunition could be blamed.

Earlier, shells manufactured by South African firm — Naschem — were used in the original Bofors guns. Nearly a dozen instances of barrel or muzzle being damaged took place with the Naschem ammunition, says data with TOI.

Recently, developers of the ATAGS, another 155mm gun, claimed that it set a world record by achieving a range of 48km. Based on a design by Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE), a unit of the DRDO, the gun is being developed by Tatas and Bharat Forge.

[darshan]

Delete irrelevant comment

[abhik]

I think it should be noted that this article is from 2017 and not recent.

Artillery shells broke up within barrels during recent misfires.

Misfires have been reported over the last five months in two artillery guns, US’ M777 howitzers recently delivered to India, and the home made Dhanush, modelled on the Swedish Bofors. In all these incidents between May and September, the shell did not explode, but had fractured within the barrel before coming out, probably due to pressure.

The shell had hit the muzzle of Dhanush’s barrel during test fires in May and July. The muzzle, which is on the top of the barrel was damaged in the incident. A similar incident was reported in the American M777 ultralight howitzers on September 2. Sources say the damage to M777 was much more severe as compared to Dhanush. The first batch of 25 M777s were delivered by BAE Systems in May this year.

However, it is too early to say whether the shell or the gun is faulty, say sources involved in the matter. The Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) has said a joint investigation is underway in the M777 incident. Primary investigation into May’s incident with the Dhanush points to problems in the shell. Now, the entire case is being studied with a fresh perspective, said sources. This is a peculiar situation, say experts involved in the case, as shell fracturing is not common.

Artillery shells used by the Army are manufactured in ordnance factories located across Vidarbha. The shells are made in the ordnance factory at Ambazari and the explosives are manufactured at Bhandara. In all the three incidents, the shells used were made by the ordnance factories. Now, due to the similar problems, a relation is being suspected in all the cases.

In 2013 too, there had been a barrel burst in the Dhanush. It had led to major damage to the barrel but there were no casualties. At that time, it was a rouge ammunition that had burst within the barrel, says the report.

Data accessed by TOI shows that there were cases of muzzle hit and barrel burst in the original Bofors too. In three instances, ‘bore premature’ has been mentioned as the reason. This means the shell exploded prematurely, within the barrel. There are a couple of reports in which the inquiry says that neither the gun nor ammunition could be blamed.

Earlier, shells manufactured by South African firm — Naschem — were used in the original Bofors guns. Nearly a dozen instances of barrel or muzzle being damaged took place with the Naschem ammunition, says data with TOI.

Recently, developers of the ATAGS, another 155mm gun, claimed that it set a world record by achieving a range of 48km. Based on a design by Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE), a unit of the DRDO, the gun is being developed by Tatas and Bharat Forge.

[ramana]

Artillery shells used by the Army are manufactured in ordnance factories located across Vidarbha. The shells are made in the ordnance factory at Ambazari and the explosives are manufactured at Bhandara. In all the three incidents, the shells used were made by the ordnance factories. Now, due to the similar problems, a relation is being suspected in all the cases.

In 2013 too, there had been a barrel burst in the Dhanush. It had led to major damage to the barrel but there were no casualties. At that time, it was a rouge ammunition that had burst within the barrel, says the report.

Data accessed by TOI shows that there were cases of muzzle hit and barrel burst in the original Bofors too. In three instances, ‘bore premature’ has been mentioned as the reason. This means the shell exploded prematurely, within the barrel. There are a couple of reports in which the inquiry says that neither the gun nor ammunition could be blamed.

Earlier, shells manufactured by South African firm — Naschem — were used in the original Bofors guns. Nearly a dozen instances of barrel or muzzle being damaged took place with the Naschem ammunition, says data with TOI.

If you step back 'bore premature' is quite shell independent. NASCHEM and OFB shells both explode in the bore.
There is some thing else. Need to look at gun usage.
We need the COIs to focus on the barrel life, wear and tear.

Shell ballotting is known phenomenon andd has happened since WWI where large scale usage of artillery was prevalent.
Barrel wear and tear causes clearances cause the shell to hit barrel sides with upto 40,000 gs. And few materials can handle that.
My suggestion is the COI have a senior applied mathemetician on the team to investigate the shell acclerations and determine safe barrel replacement time.
I have seen bore measurements as a standard practice at the battery level and barrel replacement at the depot level when they exceed the safe measurrements.

[VinodTK]

Trial of howitzer guns stopped

Jaisalmer: The trial of final phase of Howitzer guns that was going on at Pokhran field firing range has been stopped by DRDO after the barrel of one of the guns exploded last week. The companies left with their guns on Saturday. DRDO has formed a board to investigate the explosion of barrel and a high-level inquiry has been ordered.
The trial was going on for last 10 days in the presence of DRDO and army experts. The design of this 155mm 52-caliber gun was made by Armament Research & Development Establishment, Pune and manufactured by Tata Power and Bharat Forge. The barrel of a gun during the firing at the trial blasted in which 3-4 experts suffered minor injuries.
:
:
:

[jaysimha]

DRDO hands over Authority Holding Sealed Particulars of Pinaka rocket system
The AHSP transfer marks successful streamlining of production processes of Pinaka rockets, its launchers, battery command posts, loader-cum-replenishment and replenishment vehicles as well as successful establishment of quality assurance processes.
https://indianexpress.com/article/india ... m-6611912/


At the ceremony, documentation required by various production agencies, quality assurance agencies, maintenance agencies and users were formally handed over by three DRDO facilities – ARDE, HEMRL and VRDE – to Controllerate of Quality Assurance (Ammunition)

[Paul]

With the barrel exploding of ATAGS in testing will foreign cos see an opportunity to get the Artillery gun selection race?

Sjha alluded to this in latest tweet.

These are the kind of situations where it is very difficult to decipher Modi. On one hand he calls for atmanirbhar Bharat and then on the other side he does not step in to defend local manufacturers.

[Pratyush]

With the barrel exploding of ATAGS in testing will foreign cos see an opportunity to get the Artillery gun selection race?

Sjha alluded to this in latest tweet.

These are the kind of situations where it is very difficult to decipher Modi. On one hand he calls for atmanirbhar Bharat and then on the other side he does not step in to defend local manufacturers.

I don't think so. Let's wait for the COI to finish up its inquiry. We have seen multiple instances like this over the last few years. This will not be replaced by any imported weapon.

[vimal]

But it will delay it indefinitely.
Also, Modi is a not a defence expert by any means. It's the job of the RM and other experts to formulate the correct policies.

[Pratyush]

But it will delay it indefinitely.
Also, Modi is a not a defence expert by any means. It's the job of the RM and other experts to formulate the correct policies.

Not quite, I expect that the testing to resume by the end of October at the latest.

The thing is that the DRDO is truly at the leading edge of technology and design for this gun. Setback will be there and will be temporary.

No foreign gun will be bought in place of ATAGS because Bharat forge and OFB both have NATO compliant 52 cal 155 available.

[Karan M]

Without ToT how was the Flycatcher integrated with the Trishul missile? You can see the Flycatcher radar atop the Trishul carrier.

I said "not complete TOT". We indigenized certain components and also re-engineered the radar to fit on top of the Trishul carrier. Not that we didn't receive TOT at all. In earlier days, our Euro/Russian vendors were more liberal with TOT but would always hold back some critical component and we'd then be constrained. We got around that with local development. Nowadays its far worse. TOT agreements are far more ringfenced and expensive.

Multiple indigenous modernizations of Flycatcher, again not possible without ToT, resulted in overall complete replacement that we now see as Atulya. Its called the grandfather's axe syndrome. Grandfather had an axe. Father replaced the shaft. I replaced the blade. So is the axe old or new?

The point I was making is that TOT that we receive is not 100%. There are always items which are missing and which are imported which we subsequently made in India.

For instance LRDE noted in Techfocus from BRF archives:

Based on the in-house design methodologies, slotted array antenna for
ASP in S-band, LCA-MMR in X-band, X-Band array for missile
applications, Ku-band for missile seeker
head applications, Maritime patrol radar
for ALH in X-band, Battle Field Surveillance Radar
and Fly Catcher Radar for M/s Bharat Electronics have been developed and tested successfully. All
the antennas developed meet all the technical requirements and are in production

Of course, subsequently got to discuss this with BEL guys and they noted the original Flycatcher and the design in Atulya were different in terms of data processing and range aspects as well. The Ka-band tracking radar is similar to that in the Flycatcher, but the surveillance radar, the EO assembly are completely new as is the data processing, signal processing, et al. The Flycatcher as memory serves was a dual truck unit. One had the radar and all the sensors. The other had the radar operators cabin etc. Atulya is completely integrated into one vehicle. The Thales FC Mk2 also retains the dual container layout.

In short, it retains the same overall scheme/design but is not a one-on-one copy as improvements have occurred in technology terms and IA specifications were far more substantial. So the design follows IA GSQR but not just "improving" a Flycatcher copy.

The grandfather's axe syndrome sort of fits some aspects but not all. You see because the original fit and function remains somewhat similar, but performance increases significantly elsewhere. This does not usually occur in the above analogy to the same degree. BEL also noted IA specified specific performance gains vs specific classes of targets in particular.

But all this is besides the point I was seeking to make which was that none of these TOT agreements ever come with full TOT so we make our own mods and hence create a sort of hybrid system, with even substantial TOT receding unless there is a corporate tie-up or substantial JV with the foreign firm which can monitor how its IPR is being used.

We also have this intriguing set-up from L&T. L&T has a tie-up with Thales, so I surmise they got some TOT from Thales to come up with this system.
https://www.lnt-defence.com/our-offerin ... rol-radar/
https://www.lnt-defence.com/our-offerin ... rol-radar/

Note the search radar setup is a 4 panel AESA, which is not there in the Flycatcher Mk2 setup either. It would be excellent if they actually came up with all this on their own.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DMPRH-QVoAI ... ame=medium

Which brings me to another pet peeve of mine, that with all these building blocks available and the AK-630 produced at OFB (claimed 96% indigenization) why can't we bloody well make a decent CIWS - radar and gun integrated on one vehicle? BEML has a crude looking design but surely more can be done.
All our AF are open to attack currently from PGMs bar limited number of more expensive Akash being used for the role.

[milindc]

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/m ... 2020-09-29

Calculating the loss to the exchequer due to poor quality OFB ammunition to be Rs 960 crore between 2014 and 2020, the Army notes, “Rs 960 crore roughly means 100 155-mm medium artillery guns could have been bought for this amount."

The Army report accessed by India Today highlights the 'poor quality production' at the OFB, quantifying the losses both in monetary resources as well as human life due to accidents caused by faulty ammunition.

Listed under the heading 'Casualties due to OFB manufactured ammunition and armament', the report notes 27 troops and others have been killed in faulty ammunition accidents since 2014, with 159 being seriously injured, including permanent disabilities and loss of limbs.

There have been 13 accidents so far in 2020, though none of them has resulted in a death.

Similar thing was mentioned by a panwala when I enquired

[Raghunathgb]

Bharat forge along with solar group Nagpur can venture into ammunition, however they need to be compensated with orders for their existing guns.

[Prem Kumar]

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/m ... 2020-09-29

Listed under the heading 'Casualties due to OFB manufactured ammunition and armament', the report notes 27 troops and others have been killed in faulty ammunition accidents since 2014, with 159 being seriously injured, including permanent disabilities and loss of limbs

Shouldn't that be a criminal offense? Mustn't heads roll in the OFB for this?

If this was done by a private player, wouldn't the IA be justified in dragging them to court?

[darshan]

Yes no court and where are no umpteen number of trials and tests to accept ammunition. If ammunition with less safety margin can be accepted then why not artillery or other weapon system. Voters are need to be educated more and more about the actual issues. No news outlet is chasing this details and bringing them to public on daily basis.

[ramana]

With the barrel exploding of ATAGS in testing will foreign cos see an opportunity to get the Artillery gun selection race?

Sjha alluded to this in latest tweet.

These are the kind of situations where it is very difficult to decipher Modi. On one hand he calls for atmanirbhar Bharat and then on the other side he does not step in to defend local manufacturers.

No. Field guns are in the negative import list.

COI will be reviewed to ensure it thorough and comprehensive.
Not like earlier ones.

Something is odd here.

[shaun]

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/m ... 2020-09-29

Listed under the heading 'Casualties due to OFB manufactured ammunition and armament', the report notes 27 troops and others have been killed in faulty ammunition accidents since 2014, with 159 being seriously injured, including permanent disabilities and loss of limbs

Shouldn't that be a criminal offense? Mustn't heads roll in the OFB for this?

If this was done by a private player, wouldn't the IA be justified in dragging them to court?

Ammunition(BMCS) for 155 guns comes from OFB Nalanda , they produce it on design that they got from Somchem which was part of ToT before Denel got black listed.
"
It envisaged supply and delivery of TOT documents which comprised Product specifications including detailed dimensional drawings and designs, Quality and Inspection procedures,Process descriptions and Production methods in respect of raw materials, intermediate products and final products. The total cost of the TOT package was of US $ 13.99 million which included US $11.86 million as license fee, US $ 1.25 million for Technical and manufacturing data pack and US $ 0.88 million
for training."

From the original TOT we got are only the technical papers from Somchem , which OFB Nalanda along with HEMRL worked upon and they brought out their own version.

After a decade of investigation , nothing could be proved against Denel and hence black listing lifted. They should now rope in Denel ASAP for technical consulatncy as envisaged in the original ToT

What more interesting is solar industries which produces nitroglycerine NG based explosives was supposed to get technology transfer from DRDO ( HEMRL) for producing BMCS but OFB opposed it citing that , HEMRL got the know how , when working with them and that it will breach IP of Denel , time line is
2015-17 when Denel was black listed. OFBs should be privatized

PS :Gurus here can rectify .

[Vips]

Can gurus here make any sense of this:

The shells for 155mm calibre howitzers made by the ordnance factory are designed to be fired with up to six charge modules and handle pressure up to 340 megapascals. To make the shell fly over 40km, seven charge modules are used. The OFB shells are made under transfer of technology (TOT) from South African company Dennel. Even in the TOT, it has been specified that the gun can handle service pressure of 340 megapascals, or six charge modules at the most.

This is called zone 6 ammunition, and what has been used in ATAGS was zone 7. Higher pressure due to zone 7 can lead to risks. Zone 6 is the standard world over, the sources said. OFB only makes zone 6 ammunition, which is in line with NATO standards. Even the 155x52 calibre mounted gun system developed by the OFB uses zone 6, a source said.

An official in one of the private companies confirmed that the shell was fired with zone 7 ammunition to achieve a higher charge, and rejected any claim that they had received any warning. So far, both Bharat Forge and Tata guns have fired over 1,000 rounds using the zone 7 rounds. The ATAGS barrel is designed to handle 440 megapascals of pressure.

“The pressure handling capacity is basically meant for the barrel but even the shell is expected to withstand similar levels,” the source said. A final investigation into the incident will only reveal the truth said the company official.

[nam]

It is ofcourse an obvious aspect. However the reporter has been feed by someone from OFB. No one is going to take a risk, standing next to it, if there is an iota of doubt on the round. They will fire it on standoff.

People in IA, DRDO, BF, Tata are not that dumb to fire a round that might break under higher pressure. The jokers are OFB probably think it was a QC issue on their round, so trying to shift the blame quickly.

[kvraghav]

Playing devil's advocate, why can't it be that the army was using more charges than the shell was rated for, just because the gun supported it? They may have been encouraged due to the success till then right. I think there is no way to increase range in a dumb unless we reduce the shell weight or increase barellel pressure

[ramana]

Can gurus here make any sense of this:

The shells for 155mm calibre howitzers made by the ordnance factory are designed to be fired with up to six charge modules and handle pressure up to 340 megapascals. To make the shell fly over 40km, seven charge modules are used. The OFB shells are made under transfer of technology (TOT) from South African company Dennel. Even in the TOT, it has been specified that the gun can handle service pressure of 340 megapascals, or six charge modules at the most.

This is called zone 6 ammunition, and what has been used in ATAGS was zone 7. Higher pressure due to zone 7 can lead to risks. Zone 6 is the standard world over, the sources said. OFB only makes zone 6 ammunition, which is in line with NATO standards. Even the 155x52 calibre mounted gun system developed by the OFB uses zone 6, a source said.

An official in one of the private companies confirmed that the shell was fired with zone 7 ammunition to achieve a higher charge, and rejected any claim that they had received any warning. So far, both Bharat Forge and Tata guns have fired over 1,000 rounds using the zone 7 rounds. The ATAGS barrel is designed to handle 440 megapascals of pressure.

“The pressure handling capacity is basically meant for the barrel but even the shell is expected to withstand similar levels,” the source said. A final investigation into the incident will only reveal the truth said the company official.

charges.

I didn't pay attention to this report. Thanks for posting it.
So the basic issue is over a 1000 rounds were fired on both ATAG models with Zone 7.

My pet theory is the barrel erosion creates a gap between the borulette and the barrel inner diameter and with the natural center of gravity offset in the shell it causes balloting.
Till now I was flummoxed that barrel eroded with normal wear from the number of rounds>1000 just like M777 shell ahd burst around 1165 rounds.

Now I see that these guns were fired with Zone 7 charges which is more than the normal Zone 6.
Gun barrel wear has tow components: wear due to rubbing erosion i.e repeated firings and chemical erosion due to the nitrogen products in the charge. Chemical erosion is <<< friction erosion.

I believe the gun barrel got worn due to these Zone 7 charges which impart greater energy to the shell and cause more friction.

One way to verify is to take barrel diameter measurements along the unexploded part of the barrel and compare to the original mfg requirement.

[ramana]

Playing devil's advocate, why can't it be that the army was using more charges than the shell was rated for, just because the gun supported it? They may have been encouraged due to the success till then right. I think there is no way to increase range in a dumb unless we reduce the shell weight or increase barellel pressure

Then don't blame the OFB for making the shell fragile!