They really said that. wow
Should have told them that the logic can be extended to all products the military uses - including personnel.
Might as well fire all of them and hire mercenaries.. we can have huge savings on pensions as well.
They really said that. wow
Pratyushji,
Don't bother. When people like Lt. Genius Gunnershot are justifying piecemeal orders and liken it to the purchase of clothing for children, it means the rot is very deep. Focus on the architecture which promotes this idiocy.Pratyush wrote: ↑08 Oct 2023 15:30 Which imported gun has hybrid systems, lazer propellent ignition and automated shell handling system, at under 12 tons?
Not even the ERCA has those features.
Not Athos,
Not anything else.
Unless they chose to forego 3 out of 4 features from the wishlist. They are not importing anything.
Yes. And the rot in Armed Forces leadership is so bad that they will let it happen. Or continue to live in la-la-land that the Great Powers (read U.S.A) will intervene and stop any war from lasting beyond 1 week (because they are not prepared for more than 1 week). And talk about "era of no-war", when Ukraine is happening in front of their eyes.
Tanaji wrote: ↑08 Oct 2023 15:39 No they wont import anything. But they wont buy anything either, thats my point.
Besides IA has shown a marked willingness to relax requirements for foreign equipment in hope that it will come later. Refer to T90 saga.
The Chandigarh lobby attitude is that if I don’t make money, let everything burn.
Prem Kumar-ji,Prem Kumar wrote: ↑08 Oct 2023 19:49Yes. And the rot in Armed Forces leadership is so bad that they will let it happen. Or continue to live in la-la-land that the Great Powers (read U.S.A) will intervene and stop any war from lasting beyond 1 week (because they are not prepared for more than 1 week). And talk about "era of no-war", when Ukraine is happening in front of their eyes.
Or as always, count on the humble jawan to save their ass with his exceptional bravery against all odds (said odds being created by the leadership in the first place)
Lt Gen P Ravishankar, when I asked him about FARP on Twitter and our performance against it, said "There is no FARP". That's a verbatim quote.
So, the much touted FARP is as transient as fart.
What has taken its place? Nobody knows
Do we even have a written down artillery procurement plan? Nobody knows
This is the sad state of our artillery
You're not getting it. This is about stabilizing a platform in this decade and in adequate numbers. Not playing this bullshit game of going here and there whenever you feel like it and giving piecemeal orders. This isn't like buying clothes for children like the good gen likes to think. You need to have a clear plan and put it on paper for everyone to see.titash wrote: ↑08 Oct 2023 22:46Prem Kumar-ji,Prem Kumar wrote: ↑08 Oct 2023 19:49
Yes. And the rot in Armed Forces leadership is so bad that they will let it happen. Or continue to live in la-la-land that the Great Powers (read U.S.A) will intervene and stop any war from lasting beyond 1 week (because they are not prepared for more than 1 week). And talk about "era of no-war", when Ukraine is happening in front of their eyes.
Or as always, count on the humble jawan to save their ass with his exceptional bravery against all odds (said odds being created by the leadership in the first place)
Lt Gen P Ravishankar, when I asked him about FARP on Twitter and our performance against it, said "There is no FARP". That's a verbatim quote.
So, the much touted FARP is as transient as fart.
What has taken its place? Nobody knows
Do we even have a written down artillery procurement plan? Nobody knows
This is the sad state of our artillery
The video by Lt. Gen. P. R. Shankar is very clear on the 'what' and the 'why':
Artillery has been committed to the "Artillery Profile 2017" and "Artillery Profile 2027" documents since the early 2000s. There is no document called the "Field Artillery Rationalization Plan (FARP)". Its a figment of the media's imagination. This is from the horse's mouth itself...the man who wrote both those documents
It's not all doom and gloom; he makes quite a few points that should make BRF pause and think a bit:
1) The DRDO ATAGS is from a brand new "design house" with no prior experience. The plan was to hedge bets by buying 300 odd guns from multiple sources to prevent block obsolescence. They created a good 155/52 gun but they were unable to keep the weight down, but the IA is committed to acquiring 307 guns of this design to be used in the plains. These will come online in the next 5 years.
2) The next-gen gun RFP is also for a lighter gun but will be purchased with 300-400 units only to incorporate newer technologies + prevent block obsolescence. These will come online only in the next 10 years. There is some logic here...iterative designs + new technologies = a continually challenged and upskilled workforce.
3) The IA is moving to an all-155mm force with all locally procured guns + locally procured propellent charges + locally procured fuses. All 155 mm guns to be procured over the next 5 years are built in India (200 K9 + 307 ATAGS + 114-414 Dhanush + 300 Sharang). That's about 1000+ guns right there if you don't count the ~300 existing FH77 Bofors
4) The 114-414 Dhanush orders depend on production issues being resolved (not design issues)...that's an OFB problem that hopefully corporatization has solved. Ultimately if the politicians want it, nothing can stop the Dhanush line churning out guns.
5) India today has more artillery capacity than ALL of EU's NATO members put together.
The last report said,it costs 70 lakh per gun, peanuts really. We can have 1000 M-46 converted (what will you do with M-46 ammo stockpile, I guess we will keep decent amount of M-46) for 700 carores, or less than 100 million USD. The only if is that the OFB keeps on screwing this up.
Yes, titash ji, I agree with your post. I think you captured the gist, no imports all indigenous and appropriate cost. There are some teething issues with OFB, which they should resolve quickly and move on.titash wrote:Not sure why we should continue berating ourselves.
The plan you have outlined is a good one and I will not argue against it. The crucial ingredient missing is support for pvt MIC
Sirjee,Atmavik wrote: ↑10 Oct 2023 20:32The plan you have outlined is a good one and I will not argue against it. The crucial ingredient missing is support for pvt MIC
I have been on this forum for more than a decade and here are the problems that kept repeating before 2014
1. DPSUs have a sarkari culture that never adheres to timelines
2. QC is horrendous
3. Costs are never brought down and keep increasing
4. No or little R & D in dpsu
5. Customer support is bad
6. Exports remain a dream
Many of these problems would be addressed by bringing in pvt sector as they are structuraly better suited. I am disappointed that the pvt sector is finally ready but the forces now seem to prefer the dpsus
Also we don’t have endless time. Elections will eventually bring in new govt who will kill of the pvt sector to suit there needs. We need the pvt sector developing and becoming part of the system
Sirjee congress was definitely involved in importing stuff but congress is not in power anymore - to be specific congress is now powerless and has very little influence on any policy institute. They cant even save their own leader from being convicted even. Far from being able t do anything for import lobby. From courts, to economic & policy institutions, media - just about everything is controlled by the present government. Congress is truly powerless and so are their supporters. So import lobby cant get any support from their congress origins.ramana wrote: ↑08 Oct 2023 21:51Tanaji wrote: ↑08 Oct 2023 15:39 No they wont import anything. But they wont buy anything either, thats my point.
Besides IA has shown a marked willingness to relax requirements for foreign equipment in hope that it will come later. Refer to T90 saga.
The Chandigarh lobby attitude is that if I don’t make money, let everything burn.
Chandigarh Lobby does not exist in isolation. It is the arms procurement corruption of the Congress system.
Do read Rajni Kothari's Congress system written in the 1960s.
Congress was the hub of many systems that operate in different sectors.
The demise of Gandhis from power made these ssytems independent so much so that an arms peddler went and threatened a sitting Army chief for a truck purchase.
And nothing happened to him!
So railing against the Chandigarh lobby without knowing who is its backer is futile.
Not really. The arguments are quite logical. Request you to watch the interviews from Sansad TV and Gunners Shot.
Wrong on multiple counts.Pratyush wrote: ↑11 Oct 2023 10:09 ATAGS has a problem, because it was designed by a house with no prior experience.
If this is the case, why the hell, the Indian army waste every one's time, with years of user testing?
The damm gun was designed as an ab initio effort. The army had embedded officers for project supervision and oversight. What were those men doing, that the end product is unacceptable to the army?
Again - wrong on multiple countsPratyush wrote: ↑11 Oct 2023 10:09 The M46 upgrade program was a stop gap effort. In order to by pass the issue of blacklisted vendors. Since when, has the upgrade itself become a preferred solution?
If it's because of cost?
Then why even bother to upgrade the guns. The simple M46 can be operated without any upgrades. Money saved, No?
Now we're talking
That's the reason why I consider those reasons to be ridiculous.
1) A military equipment is not available off the shelf. It's nearly always purpose built.
If the upgraded gun was not a stop gap and was meant to be main arty piece for the Indian army.titash wrote: ↑12 Oct 2023 01:24
Again - wrong on multiple counts
1) Who says the M-46 conversations were a stop gap? The gun itself is a lump of steel. They have been in service since the mid 1970s. They are being upgraded in the 2020s after 50 years. They will serve another 25-50 years if needed.
2) The M-46 is a robust, simple-to-operate, simple-to-maintain, and well-liked gun. See the testimonials from the Artillery folks in the 2 Sansad TV videos. The upgrade makes sense and is cheap. What else do you want?
3) Cost, in any defence procurement, is a make-or-break factor no matter how you skin it.
4) Why bother to upgrade the guns? Simple - the army has decided to standardize on 155mm caliber for range, lethality, & ammo standardization. That's why.