Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

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Philip
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Philip » 28 Jul 2020 19:34

I wonder seriously whether its worth by 2030 or thereabouts reinventing the wheel with the Tejas-2, when it is acknowledged that it will only be as good as the 35 yr. old M2K! Reports of frantic work on the AMCA makes better sense and personally I feel that all our efforts should be on the AMCA as a future stealth fighter,esp.as the reports indicate a slightly larger aircraft design is required because of a larger internal weapons bay requirement to house planned for AAMs and ASMs.

The USAF has started work on an 18 month " autonomous" fighter ( unmanned) concept which will be able to take decisions in flight thanks to AI,faster than any human bring. It will be superior to anything flying today. Assuming the prototypes arrive by the decade end, the Tejas-2 will be an antique generation wise,conceptually 45 yrs. old barring some composites,a new radar and better EW .It won't even match the Rafale. While new stealth fighters manned and unmanned ,plus so-caled 6th.-gen fighters proliferate the skies, Tejas-2 will look like its " back to the future"!

Current stealth fighters and new 5th- gen fighter programmes in the works in some countries will remain relevant . For a nation like ours that has such a small defence budget, still battling with Tejas-1/1A development and meaningful series production, the T-2 appears to me as a waste of time and money. If we need more medium fighters for the inventory of 4+ or 4++ generation then there are existing options from the list of those competing for MMRCA 2.0. Extra Rafales though a v.expfnsive option would still ssve a lot of time and money and more MIG-29UGs even cheaper in no way inferior to an M2K,superior if you ask AM Masand retd.

It would also add to the number of types in the inventory defeating standardisation which was a requisite to make it easier for the IAF to have greater nos. combat available .The AMCA is supposed to replace all med. fighters and Jaguars barring the Rafale post 2030. Perfecting Tejas 1A and accelerating its production rate should be the objective for a programme yet to meet its 3 decade old performance parameters thanks to stuffing too much additional eqpt. into its small airframe. The difficulty of doing that with composites unlike metal airframes was illustrated in a review of the LCA in a recent VAYU edition. If Tejas is built in large numbers swiftly and economically,replacing legacy MIG-21s
the programme would've met its original purpose and ensured enough numbers in the IAF's fleet in the light category.However,it cannot " punch above its weight". For the medium type performance, and survivability in the eta of stealth post 2030. it requires a new contemporary aircraft looking towards the future,not towards the past!

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby suryag » 28 Jul 2020 20:00

Philip Sir - kindly consider this as an unofficial warning for your reversion back to one single theme of creating a case for out of place Russian wares. Kindly cease and desist

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby brar_w » 28 Jul 2020 20:50

Philip wrote:Current stealth fighters and new 5th- gen fighter programmes in the works in some countries will remain relevant . For a nation like ours that has such a small defence budget, still battling with Tejas-1/1A development and meaningful series production, the T-2 appears to me as a waste of time and money. If we need more medium fighters for the inventory of 4+ or 4++ generation then there are existing options from the list of those competing for MMRCA 2.0. Extra Rafales though a v.expfnsive option would still ssve a lot of time and money and more MIG-29UGs even cheaper in no way inferior to an M2K,superior if you ask AM Masand retd.


There are tactical and logistical reasons that tie directly into READINESS and the ability to fight when called upon to do so. Even the USAF is buying as many as 200 F-15 EX's because they slot right in into the retiring F-15C fleet, use the same infrastructure and logistical/depot base and the training and support is already baked in. Huge financial savings as opposed to transitioning to a completely new type and most importantly huge savings in the time it takes to transition a unit to new tails and get it up to speed to fight if called upon. It is very easy to underestimate the operational impact of having a unit to a completely new type especially one that is coming out of its development with the schedule uncertainty associated with that. You could be looking at anywhere from 18 months to 3 years to get the unit fully kitted and fully trained and equipped (FOC) to fight. Shaving half or more of that TIMES the number of transitioning units directly ties into maintaining high rates readiness and the ability to "fight tonight".

The same is going to be true when the MWF comes in given its based on the LCA. Easier transition and easier for HAL to support frontline squadrons. That equates to a boost in readiness and the ability to fight. Waiting for the AMCA to mature while continuing to use inferior (to the MWF) aircraft till such time directly makes IAF's capability and capacity (brand new MWF's will maintain higher readiness rates) worst. MWF comes in and replaces types when it is ready and AMCA can begin replacing fighters retiring in the second half of the 2030's. Risking a large chunk of IAF modernization on the success of a 5GFA is extremely problematic given how hard it has been for the US, Russia and China in fully mastering 5GFA technology. This is hard stuff and a 15-20 year process to get to FOC and high maturity. Not modernizing at scale over that time frame is just bad at so many different levels, especially given the greater assertiveness of China and the global security situation in general.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 29 Jul 2020 02:19

putnanja wrote:
sankum wrote:HAL tender for Tejas mk2 wing assembly
Length of wing 6.5m
Width 3.4m
Thickness 30cm
Weight 750kg
https://hal-india.co.in/Tender_Details. ... ivkey=MTY=


Interesting, thanks for sharing the link.

I was looking at the technical specs, and it has rough specs. Does anyone know if the design has been frozen? If I remember previous discussions, there were multiple wind tunnel models displayed in various airshows, not sure if its frozen or not.

Also, was thinking that for MK-II onwards, HAL might outsource the wing assembly too to tier-1 suppliers like Tata advanced materials etc who are doing work on wing for Mk-I too. Looks like HAL is keeping it inhouse. They wanted to be integrators with various assemblies/sub-assemblies coming from tier-1/2 suppliers. Looks like it will just be similar to Mk-1/IA for Mk-II too.

Yes, the design is frozen. I think they are going through due process. It will be difficult to replace the entity which is currently entrusted to build Mk1A wings. Also, this proves that Mk2s will have no TD, PV etc. It is LSPs from day 1 with eventual Tier I/Tier II manufacturers.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby dkhare » 29 Jul 2020 21:27

That is great news if they have completed the detailed design. Can't wait to see some official renderings and scale models...

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Gyan » 30 Jul 2020 12:22

But are they asking for only ONE set of assemblies? That is for only One Aircraft?

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Dileep » 30 Jul 2020 14:13

Gyan wrote:But are they asking for only ONE set of assemblies? That is for only One Aircraft?


The tender is to build the assembly line. Not the wing itself. I don't know who is the target suppliers, who is capable to
Design,Manufacture,Assembly,Installation and Certification of Wing Assembly Line along with Sub-Assembly Jigs and other associated Tooling for Modules by adopting the Methodology of Jig-Less Concept for Fixed Wing Fighter Aircraft Project

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Manish_Sharma » 30 Jul 2020 14:35

Philip wrote:I wonder seriously whether its worth by 2030 or thereabouts reinventing the wheel with the Tejas-2, when it is acknowledged that it will only be as good as the 35 yr. old M2K!


Even in 2035 you'll be very happy if IAF were buying 50 years old Russian fighter mig29/35. I guess Russian stuff is ageless, But Tejas2 will be outdated in 2030 because its Swadeshi.

Even today you push for 35 year old mig29/35.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby abhik » 30 Jul 2020 14:52

Is the 2022 first flight still really feasible? There has been no news of metal cutting (was supposed to have happened by now).

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby chola » 30 Jul 2020 16:40

^^^ Yes, timeline seems ambitious. But that said, it is still a development of Tejas not a entirely greenfield project. Things could be happening faster.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 30 Jul 2020 18:38

suryag wrote:Philip Sir - kindly consider this as an unofficial warning for your reversion back to one single theme of creating a case for out of place Russian wares. Kindly cease and desist


He is best ignored.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Philip » 30 Jul 2020 19:16

<admin>==== content deleted ==== Philip Sir your post adds no value, deleted <admin>

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby sudham » 31 Jul 2020 00:33

brar_w wrote:^^ There are already around 1500 F-414's that the USN has bought..

Brar ji, agree. Just that I found it interesting that the US which heavily depends on its carrier fleet was running with 50% availability
Puts a lot of our challenges in context.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby brar_w » 31 Jul 2020 01:51

sudham wrote:
brar_w wrote:^^ There are already around 1500 F-414's that the USN has bought..

Brar ji, agree. Just that I found it interesting that the US which heavily depends on its carrier fleet was running with 50% availability
Puts a lot of our challenges in context.


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7088&p=2451222#p2451222

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Vips » 31 Jul 2020 02:45

Per a Defence AV, Tender (RFQ) is out for manufacturing wings for Tejas MK2. RFQ mentions capacity for 24 birds each year. :)

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 01 Aug 2020 18:27

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/128 ... 32608?s=20 ---> HEADS UP: Air Marshal Raghu Nambiar's most detailed interview goes up 6pm. Every Rafale Q: politics, IAF enhancements, comparisons with China's J-20, why India's next foreign fighter contest is a pipe dream -- and why his heart is most set on LCA Mk 2.


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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Nihat » 01 Aug 2020 19:40

Loved that interview with the Air Marshal.

His faith in the Mk. 2 is a confidence booster for sure and also interesting to note that the standard against which the benchmark will be set is that the Mk. 2 should outperform the Mirage 2k and be capable of replacing in due time.

Given the specs IMHO, this is hardly an insurmountable initial target. Not to mention that it'll be our platform and the improvements to it will be steady and consistent.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Manish_Sharma » 02 Aug 2020 11:55

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1289522079067332608?s=20 ---> HEADS UP: Air Marshal Raghu Nambiar's most detailed interview goes up 6pm. Every Rafale Q: politics, IAF enhancements, comparisons with China's J-20, why India's next foreign fighter contest is a pipe dream -- and why his heart is most set on LCA Mk 2.



:shock: :eek:
930 engines have been manufactured for 272 Su 30MKIs

corrected to 930 from 1930
Last edited by Manish_Sharma on 02 Aug 2020 13:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Manish_P » 02 Aug 2020 12:05

They needed all those

Please refer to the very recent post by tsarkar sir in the Tejas Mk1 thread

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Aditya_V » 02 Aug 2020 12:49

Its 930 engines not 1930, but still shows why the Ge 404 and French engines have lower life cycle costs


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