Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 29 Jul 2020 02:19

putnanja wrote:
sankum wrote:HAL tender for Tejas mk2 wing assembly
Length of wing 6.5m
Width 3.4m
Thickness 30cm
Weight 750kg
https://hal-india.co.in/Tender_Details. ... ivkey=MTY=


Interesting, thanks for sharing the link.

I was looking at the technical specs, and it has rough specs. Does anyone know if the design has been frozen? If I remember previous discussions, there were multiple wind tunnel models displayed in various airshows, not sure if its frozen or not.

Also, was thinking that for MK-II onwards, HAL might outsource the wing assembly too to tier-1 suppliers like Tata advanced materials etc who are doing work on wing for Mk-I too. Looks like HAL is keeping it inhouse. They wanted to be integrators with various assemblies/sub-assemblies coming from tier-1/2 suppliers. Looks like it will just be similar to Mk-1/IA for Mk-II too.

Yes, the design is frozen. I think they are going through due process. It will be difficult to replace the entity which is currently entrusted to build Mk1A wings. Also, this proves that Mk2s will have no TD, PV etc. It is LSPs from day 1 with eventual Tier I/Tier II manufacturers.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby dkhare » 29 Jul 2020 21:27

That is great news if they have completed the detailed design. Can't wait to see some official renderings and scale models...

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Gyan » 30 Jul 2020 12:22

But are they asking for only ONE set of assemblies? That is for only One Aircraft?

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Dileep » 30 Jul 2020 14:13

Gyan wrote:But are they asking for only ONE set of assemblies? That is for only One Aircraft?


The tender is to build the assembly line. Not the wing itself. I don't know who is the target suppliers, who is capable to
Design,Manufacture,Assembly,Installation and Certification of Wing Assembly Line along with Sub-Assembly Jigs and other associated Tooling for Modules by adopting the Methodology of Jig-Less Concept for Fixed Wing Fighter Aircraft Project

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Manish_Sharma » 30 Jul 2020 14:35

Philip wrote:I wonder seriously whether its worth by 2030 or thereabouts reinventing the wheel with the Tejas-2, when it is acknowledged that it will only be as good as the 35 yr. old M2K!


Even in 2035 you'll be very happy if IAF were buying 50 years old Russian fighter mig29/35. I guess Russian stuff is ageless, But Tejas2 will be outdated in 2030 because its Swadeshi.

Even today you push for 35 year old mig29/35.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby abhik » 30 Jul 2020 14:52

Is the 2022 first flight still really feasible? There has been no news of metal cutting (was supposed to have happened by now).

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby chola » 30 Jul 2020 16:40

^^^ Yes, timeline seems ambitious. But that said, it is still a development of Tejas not a entirely greenfield project. Things could be happening faster.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 30 Jul 2020 18:38

suryag wrote:Philip Sir - kindly consider this as an unofficial warning for your reversion back to one single theme of creating a case for out of place Russian wares. Kindly cease and desist


He is best ignored.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Philip » 30 Jul 2020 19:16

<admin>==== content deleted ==== Philip Sir your post adds no value, deleted <admin>

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby sudham » 31 Jul 2020 00:33

brar_w wrote:^^ There are already around 1500 F-414's that the USN has bought..

Brar ji, agree. Just that I found it interesting that the US which heavily depends on its carrier fleet was running with 50% availability
Puts a lot of our challenges in context.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby brar_w » 31 Jul 2020 01:51

sudham wrote:
brar_w wrote:^^ There are already around 1500 F-414's that the USN has bought..

Brar ji, agree. Just that I found it interesting that the US which heavily depends on its carrier fleet was running with 50% availability
Puts a lot of our challenges in context.


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7088&p=2451222#p2451222

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Vips » 31 Jul 2020 02:45

Per a Defence AV, Tender (RFQ) is out for manufacturing wings for Tejas MK2. RFQ mentions capacity for 24 birds each year. :)

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 01 Aug 2020 18:27

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/128 ... 32608?s=20 ---> HEADS UP: Air Marshal Raghu Nambiar's most detailed interview goes up 6pm. Every Rafale Q: politics, IAF enhancements, comparisons with China's J-20, why India's next foreign fighter contest is a pipe dream -- and why his heart is most set on LCA Mk 2.


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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Nihat » 01 Aug 2020 19:40

Loved that interview with the Air Marshal.

His faith in the Mk. 2 is a confidence booster for sure and also interesting to note that the standard against which the benchmark will be set is that the Mk. 2 should outperform the Mirage 2k and be capable of replacing in due time.

Given the specs IMHO, this is hardly an insurmountable initial target. Not to mention that it'll be our platform and the improvements to it will be steady and consistent.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Manish_Sharma » 02 Aug 2020 11:55

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1289522079067332608?s=20 ---> HEADS UP: Air Marshal Raghu Nambiar's most detailed interview goes up 6pm. Every Rafale Q: politics, IAF enhancements, comparisons with China's J-20, why India's next foreign fighter contest is a pipe dream -- and why his heart is most set on LCA Mk 2.



:shock: :eek:
930 engines have been manufactured for 272 Su 30MKIs

corrected to 930 from 1930
Last edited by Manish_Sharma on 02 Aug 2020 13:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Manish_P » 02 Aug 2020 12:05

They needed all those

Please refer to the very recent post by tsarkar sir in the Tejas Mk1 thread

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Aditya_V » 02 Aug 2020 12:49

Its 930 engines not 1930, but still shows why the Ge 404 and French engines have lower life cycle costs

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Wickberg » 05 Aug 2020 16:21

Vips wrote:This is a last ditch attempt by SAAB to sabotage the Tejas MWF. It knows if and when MWF flies it will face tough competition for all export orders.

Everything that Gripen has is sourced from out of Sweden (Armaments and Engine). Sweden/SAAB cannot offer any TOT on it and since India has acquired the expertise to design aircraft the only worthwhile thing that SAAB has (of its own) in the Gripen program is the Electronic warfare suite. Why would it offer TOT to India on it?

Yeah, SAAB are really afraid of Tejas when it comes to export orders.

BTW Tejas can not be exported with the Elta radar so there you go.
Last edited by Wickberg on 05 Aug 2020 19:44, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 05 Aug 2020 19:00

Wickberg wrote:
Vips wrote:This is a last ditch attempt by SAAB to sabotage the Tejas MWF. It knows if and when MWF flies it will face tough competition for all export orders.

Everything that Gripen has is sourced from out of Sweden (Armaments and Engine). Sweden/SAAB cannot offer any TOT on it and since India has acquired the expertise to design aircraft the only worthwhile thing that SAAB has (of its own) in the Gripen program is the Electronic warfare suite. Why would it offer TOT to India on it?

Yeah, SAAB are really afraid of Tejas when it comes to export orders, bla bla bla.

BTW Tejas can not be exported with the Elta radar so there you go.

Not true Wickberg and even if Elta does not permit, India can export Tejas with Uttam.

And kindly edit your post. No need to be nasty.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Wickberg » 05 Aug 2020 19:43

Rakesh wrote:
Wickberg wrote:Yeah, SAAB are really afraid of Tejas when it comes to export orders, bla bla bla.

BTW Tejas can not be exported with the Elta radar so there you go.

Not true Wickberg and even if Elta does not permit, India can export Tejas with Uttam.

And kindly edit your post. No need to be nasty.

Not true how? Elta radar contains a high percentage of USA origin so it´s not up the Israelis, it´s up to uncle SAM. When I see an operational Uttam in a fighter I believe in it, Until then it´s just a paperproduct, a pipe-dream...

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 05 Aug 2020 19:50

Not true, depending on who they sell the Elta radar to.

If India got the nod from Uncle Sam for the Elta 2052, is it impossible to imagine no other country will?

Uttam is coming :)

The export of Tejas is not pinned to one particular radar.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Wickberg » 05 Aug 2020 22:46

If the Tejas would ever come up for an exportingdeal vs let´s say F-16 the US would pull the plug on the Tejas. If it´s not the radar they can always sanction the engine.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby brar_w » 05 Aug 2020 23:03

Wickberg wrote:If the Tejas would ever come up for an exportingdeal vs let´s say F-16 the US would pull the plug on the Tejas. If it´s not the radar they can always sanction the engine.


Just like they continue to do on the Gripen export ! :roll:

https://saabgroup.com/media/news-press/ ... to-canada/
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 05 Aug 2020 23:04

Wickberg wrote:If the Tejas would ever come up for an exportingdeal vs let´s say F-16 the US would pull the plug on the Tejas. If it´s not the radar they can always sanction the engine.

I have always held the belief that India does operate an American fighter. It is called the Tejas and that is because of the engine. Not meant to hurt anyone's feelings, but that is the reality.

But denying the export of the Tejas would likely bring repercussions in further American military sales to India.

Is it worth losing billions of dollars of sales to India in exchange for a few export orders of the Tejas?

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 05 Aug 2020 23:04

brar_w wrote:
Wickberg wrote:If the Tejas would ever come up for an exportingdeal vs let´s say F-16 the US would pull the plug on the Tejas. If it´s not the radar they can always sanction the engine.


Just like they continue to do on the Gripen export ! :roll:

https://saabgroup.com/media/news-press/ ... to-canada/

Well put Sir :lol:

And let us not forget the 114 order for the IAF, in which Saab is participating and also lying through their teeth.

Below is the list of all the present Gripen C/D operators worldwide which all use the RM12 turbofan which has its lineage in the GE F404 engine. Brazil will use the GE F414 turbofan on their Gripen E/Fs.

* Czech Republic
* Hungary
* South Africa
* Thailand
* United Kingdom
* Brazil

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby VikramA » 05 Aug 2020 23:16

no muslim nation will buy tejas mk1 or mk2 with israeli radar in it,in the south american market SAAB has first mover advantage because of their tie up with brazil. that leaves only africa and for african nations a FC-1 with no fly-by-wire and 3rd class chini 'AESA' at 40 million a pop is more affordable than tejas mk2 at 65 mil

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 05 Aug 2020 23:19

As I said earlier, export of Tejas is NOT tied to one particular radar.

Tejas is only in her nascent stages of development. The future is bright for her.

When the Tejas is exported, the customer will make the choice.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby V_Raman » 05 Aug 2020 23:27

Same goes for all other projects - we have not been successful in exporting a product in production - ALH - why talk about others...

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Wickberg » 06 Aug 2020 02:39

brar_w wrote:
Wickberg wrote:If the Tejas would ever come up for an exportingdeal vs let´s say F-16 the US would pull the plug on the Tejas. If it´s not the radar they can always sanction the engine.


Just like they continue to do on the Gripen export ! :roll:

https://saabgroup.com/media/news-press/ ... to-canada/


I have written before that the Gripens engine is sanctioned proofed from USA. HAL does not have the same kind of deal.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Wickberg » 06 Aug 2020 02:46

Rakesh wrote:
Wickberg wrote:If the Tejas would ever come up for an exportingdeal vs let´s say F-16 the US would pull the plug on the Tejas. If it´s not the radar they can always sanction the engine.

I have always held the belief that India does operate an American fighter. It is called the Tejas and that is because of the engine. Not meant to hurt anyone's feelings, but that is the reality.

But denying the export of the Tejas would likely bring repercussions in further American military sales to India.

Is it worth losing billions of dollars of sales to India in exchange for a few export orders of the Tejas?


If the deal was selling their own General Dynamics F-16 vs India selling Tejas hell yes they think it´s gonna be worth it. Gripen got a slap on the wrist when they offered an exportversion with Elta radar in it, you think Tejas exports is OK?

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby brar_w » 06 Aug 2020 02:49

Wickberg wrote:
brar_w wrote:
Just like they continue to do on the Gripen export ! :roll:

https://saabgroup.com/media/news-press/ ... to-canada/


I have written before that the Gripens engine is sanctioned proofed from USA. HAL does not have the same kind of deal.


Really? Please specify which US law makes it "sanction proof". If tomorrow, Sweden sells the Gripen to a nation that then goes to war with the US (hypothetical scenario) which law prohibits the US from stopping GE from shipping out F-414's to a country that it is at war with? In effect, the US sanctioned one of its own OEM's (Lockheed) effectively stopping it from executing a contract it had already had operational hardware for. But SAAB has a "sanction proof" deal. SAAB should set up offices in Ankara and Tehran in that case! :rotfl:

If you take 5 minutes to think about it, you'd realize how ridiculous "sanction proof" is. The only sanction proof product is one you make yourself. Nothing from the US, France, Russia, China, Sweden, UK etc is sanction proof. You are at the mercy of the political establishments in each of those respective countries as far as honoring a deal is concerned. Some will be more secure than others depending upon bi-lateral ties and past record but NONE will be 100% guaranteed especially during wartime.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Wickberg » 06 Aug 2020 03:37

OK, if India declares war on USA then Gripen would be off the table, so would pretty much everything India imports.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby brar_w » 06 Aug 2020 03:50

Wickberg wrote:OK, if India declares war on USA then Gripen would be off the table, so would pretty much everything India imports.


This wasn't about India and the US going to war. This was about:

A) An unsubstantiated claim that the Gripen is "sanction proof"
B ) A claim that the Tejas is unexportable because it has or may have a radar with US components and has a US made engine

You want a perfectly feasable example of A? How about, Iraq turning into an Iranian proxy state and the US sanctioning it. Will the Koreans be able to service the T-50IQ aircraft and support its engine? Now imagine, Iraq buys the Gripen just prior to turning agains the US. Will SAAB gaurantee engine support if Iraq comes under US sanctions? If so, how? If not, then how is it "sanction proof"?

For B, the Gripen is a very apt example to cite here. It has US produced mission critical hardware, and is readily exported around the world, even at times competing against US products. In fact the Gripen-E competes head on with the F-16, F-18 and F-35 in virtually every competition SAAB bids in. So the claim is easy to dismiss as baseless unless substantiated with relevant facts.

I would love to understand the concept of a product being "sanction proof" and what basis that terminology has in laws that govern defense export in various nations.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby pushkar.bhat » 06 Aug 2020 13:35

Aditya_V wrote:Its 930 engines not 1930, but still shows why the Ge 404 and French engines have lower life cycle costs


930 engines for 272 aircraft is approx 3.5 engines per aircraft. The Su-30 MKI was inducted about 20 years ago and has been flogged by the IAF. so given that the aircraft is a twin-engined aircraft the ratio is not that bad.

Would love to hear how the stats compare for Vipers, Hornets, or the M2K's which are workhorses for their respective services.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby brar_w » 06 Aug 2020 18:32

pushkar.bhat wrote:
Would love to hear how the stats compare for Vipers, Hornets, or the M2K's which are workhorses for their respective services.


By early to mid 2010's, the US Navy operated around 557 Super Hornet and Growler aircraft and had an engine buy of 1,210 - about 2.2 engines per aircraft or a reserve inventory of just under 8%. This for a naval fighter that goes on 4-6 month deployments at a time in multiples theaters with varying weather etc. From the Middle East to the Pacific. For other export orders, you can dig up DSCA notifications for Australia, Kuwait etc to see what they requested, in terms of spare engines, when they submitted their request. Better still, look up what the IAF has ordered with the F-404. With modular engines, you only need spare engines to meet a certain level of operational performance. You specify module availability at a service level of an availability window and negotiate that into a PBL. You need not maintain a very large inventory of built up engines.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 07 Aug 2020 15:51

Wickberg wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Not true Wickberg and even if Elta does not permit, India can export Tejas with Uttam.

And kindly edit your post. No need to be nasty.

Not true how? Elta radar contains a high percentage of USA origin so it´s not up the Israelis, it´s up to uncle SAM. When I see an operational Uttam in a fighter I believe in it, Until then it´s just a paperproduct, a pipe-dream...


The Elta 2052 is NOT dependent on the USA for export approval. The Tejas has other problems, which it shares with the Gripen and that is the F-404 engine, which is of US origin.

As for Uttam being a paper product because it isn't operational on a fighter, that's a bit rich. That's not very different from the paper product, non-operational AESA that Saab has been now pitching for Gripen C/D users. Name one operational customer for the Saab AESA radar. Saab itself is using a Selex Raven ES-05A on the Gripen E/F instead of using it's own GaN AESA radar.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 07 Aug 2020 15:56

Wickberg wrote:
brar_w wrote:
Just like they continue to do on the Gripen export ! :roll:

https://saabgroup.com/media/news-press/ ... to-canada/


I have written before that the Gripens engine is sanctioned proofed from USA. HAL does not have the same kind of deal.


That's a load of hog wash. Just because Volvo adds some parts to a F-404 doesn't make it Volvo's engine. It is still a GE engine. As for GE F-414, the Gripen E/F has no Volvo parts on it. It is AFAIK, a bog standard F-414-GE-39E. How the heck is that "sanction proof"?

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby VinodTK » 07 Aug 2020 17:59

^^^ Why these wet dreams of exports (waste of time and space)
first build them is sufficient numbers to meet domestic needs.

@14 aircraft per year when will there be capacity to build for export market I am not sure!

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby VikramA » 07 Aug 2020 19:06

with tejas mk1a not entering production before 2023-24 and taking 6 years to produce 83 jets , there is no way tejas mk 2 enters production before 2026. with most of mig 21 decommissioned by 23-24 time frame HAL itself is creating conditions where MOD will be forced to order atleast 3-4 squadrons of either f-21 or gripen E to be delivered by 2025.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Vips » 07 Aug 2020 19:09

My post on Gripen not having any value to India (from TOT POV) for MMRCA-II got Wicksberg's goat and he is reduced to wishes (UTTAM not making it) posting half truth and full blown lies.

This is just the beginning Wickberg, i hope to have you around in the future. You better get used to changing equations as there is much to come.


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