If the PLAAF can produce 5k pilots with sufficient skills to pilot the aircrafts during combat, you may have a point. But you forget one key thing - without man in the loop, the most advanced flying machine is nothing but a dumb brick.
Attrition, transition will happen on both sidesBarath wrote: ↑13 Aug 2023 10:07 That ignores attrition. Flying skills are perishable and require typically 150 Flying hours every year to retain certification. And pilots transition to more administrative duties each year as they get promoted/age out. Plus there is transition between types as well in their career ...
Nice load. Looking at the 10+ hard points gives IAF options to handle different scenarios. Does the above graphic list only those ordnance/missiles that are currently available (design/testing/production/deployment)? Because I don't see Brahmos/BrahmosNG listed in the graphic. Or, did I miss it?Rakesh wrote: ↑09 Aug 2023 17:32 https://twitter.com/GODOFPARADOXES/stat ... 94048?s=20 ---> Realising the fundamental fact that 'technology cannot be jumped, there are no shortcuts in technology, know-how & know-why has to be a gradual progression.' Without LCA-Mk2, AMCA development will suffer.
https://twitter.com/GODOFPARADOXES/stat ... 92096?s=20 ---> Without LCA Mk2, production efforts for AMCA will suffer even more, LCA Mk2 will allow development & experience with latest production technologies bridging the gap between 4th and 5th generation production related technologies. LCA Mk2 will be the sword wielded by IAF compared to AMCA use as a spear.
The LCA-Mk2 project received sanction from the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) in September 2022 at a total cost of ₹9,000 crore and the first flight is expected in three years. It will have canards and be 1,350 mm longer, and can carry a payload of 6,500 kg compared to the 3,500 kg capacity of the Mk1. It will be powered by the General Electric F-414 engine, which produces 98 kN thrust compared to 84 kN thrust of the GE-404 engine powering the LCA-Mk1 and Mk1A. For Mk2, the IAF has asked HAL for certain modern technologies to be incorporated, especially related to sensor fusion and networking, officials said.
On June 22, the day of Prime Minister Narendra’s Modi’s historic state visit to Washington DC where he was accorded a ceremonial welcome in the White House before extensive bilateral talks and a state dinner, GE Aerospace and HAL signed a memorandum of understanding to produce F-414 jet engines in India for the under-development Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Mk2.
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The deal with GE Aerospace to produce 99 F-414 engines under licence is likely to be signed during the current financial year, and the first lot of engines will be made in India three years thereafter, the officials added, asking not to be named.
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The LCA Mk-2 will form an important element of IAF’s future combat capabilities as India is planning to build around 130 such fighter jets.
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Last year, the government gave its nod for developing the LCA Mk-2, and sanctioned ₹10,000 crore for the project. The Mk-2 fighter will be the most advanced LCA variant to be designed and developed indigenously. Apart from the more powerful GE-414 engine, it will be equipped with superior radar, better avionics and electronics, and will be capable of carrying a higher weapons payload.
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The LCA Mk2 will have improved range, enhanced survivability, better situational awareness for pilots, network centric capabilities, and the ability to quickly switch from one role to another, the officials added.
Bingo! Right on the money.Cybaru wrote: ↑01 Sep 2023 11:39 No MRFA can happen without this LCA order. This order legitimizes more import. They can always point and say, look, we ordered all the Indian products we could, now we need this and that for this and this reason. It makes it easy to order another 4-5 squadrons of Rafales.
That means we have to add 75 new planes because of wear and tear, that is assuming that each fighter gives 10000 flying hours and each pilot Flys about 100 hours every year.Pratyush wrote: ↑13 Aug 2023 08:21 It's not as difficult as you think it is.
The ability to train just 750 pilots every year and retain them over a period of 10 years will give you 7500 pilots.
An average individual can be placed in a fighter trainer cockpit with as little as 500 hours of flight time.
It's in the fighter trainer cockpit that he learns to fly and acquire skills to handle his actual combat aircraft.
Full motion networked simulators are an excellent tool for mastering the skills needed to exploit the capability of the platform.
The skills acquired in the simulators can be honest in actual flying missions.
An airforce with the ability to learn as an institution will always be testing itself during training to see what works and what doesn't and adapt accordingly.
The different air wings of PRC have demonstrated that they are eager to learn. So much so, that they were using retired western personnel to train themselves. Until not that long ago.
It is also learnt that the two sides will assess as well the progress made in execution of the memorandum of understanding (MoU) signed between GE and HAL during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s June visit to the US for co-development of F414 engines for Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas-Mk 2 which are supposed to replace ageing Mig-29s and Mirages squadrons of the Indian Air Force. The process is supposed to kickstart in March, next year, but the indications here are that it might be pushed further, believe defence sources.
BenG wrote: ↑26 Nov 2023 08:14Rakesh ji, hgupta has a point. You do have a deference to IAF and particularl DRDO without realizing it.
In the mk2 thread, you were quite adamant that mk2 is essential for AMCA. But the initial proposal by ADA was to develop a semi-Stealth MCA after Tejas mk1 had been deemed failure around 2008. But here is the Statement by ADA in 2009:
“We are confident that after the LCA, it will be the MCA (medium combat aircraft) and the UCAV,” said Natarajan. The MCA will weigh about 20 tonnes — the same category as the six aircraft that the IAF is now evaluating for its $12.5 billion-plus order for 126 aircraft.
In November 2009, Rs 2,500 crore was sanctioned for the design and development of the Tejas Mk2. With regards to the MCA, how many crores was sanctioned for the design & development of prototypes? In 2009, the then ADA Chief spoke about a semi-Stealth MCA...but in that very same year, ADA shifts focus from MCA to Tejas Mk2 and is given the money for the program. Talk from ADA Chief (or any other decision maker) is cheap, but at the end of the day, money is the only metric that matters. On 31 August 2022, the CCS cleared Rs 6,500 crore for the project. So even more money is now being spent on the program. And I am still adamant that the Tejas Mk2 is necessary and essential for AMCA.BenG wrote: ↑26 Nov 2023 08:14In the mk2 thread, you were quite adamant that mk2 is essential for AMCA. But the initial proposal by ADA was to develop a semi-Stealth MCA after Tejas mk1 had been deemed failure around 2008. But here is the Statement by ADA in 2009:
“We are confident that after the LCA, it will be the MCA (medium combat aircraft) and the UCAV,” said Natarajan. The MCA will weigh about 20 tonnes — the same category as the six aircraft that the IAF is now evaluating for its $12.5 billion-plus order for 126 aircraft.
BenG wrote: ↑26 Nov 2023 08:14In 2009, Tejas mk1 was deemed a complete failure without Kaveri and a new turbofan was needed. Tejas mk2 was sanctioned because a new turbofan means a new plane. With mk1a, the failure has been overcome. So Tejas mk2 necessity no longer exists. Now DRDO is trying to put cart before horse. Here too, instead of IAF's choice EJ200, DRDO chose F414 because it was cheaper and quite similar to F404.Rakesh wrote: ↑26 Nov 2023 09:10In November 2009, Rs 2,500 crore was sanctioned for the design and development of the Tejas Mk2. With regards to the MCA, how many crores was sanctioned for the design & development of prototypes? In 2009, the then ADA Chief spoke about a semi-Stealth MCA...but in that very same year, ADA shifts focus from MCA to Tejas Mk2 and is given the money for the program. Talk from ADA Chief (or any other decision maker) is cheap, but at the end of the day, money is the only metric that matters. On 31 August 2022, the CCS cleared Rs 6,500 crore for the project. So even more money is now being spent on the program. And I am still adamant that the Tejas Mk2 is necessary and essential for AMCA.
The bolded part is not factually true. I don't know where you are getting this idea from.BenG wrote: ↑26 Nov 2023 08:14In 2009, Tejas mk1 was deemed a complete failure without Kaveri and a new turbofan was needed. Tejas mk2 was sanctioned because a new turbofan means a new plane. With mk1a, the failure has been overcome. So Tejas mk2 necessity no longer exists. Now DRDO is trying to put cart before horse. Here too, instead of IAF's choice EJ200, DRDO chose F414 because it was cheaper and quite similar to F404.
This is utterly untrue and is basically a desperate attempt to spread dis-information towards building a disparaging narrative of the Mk2 program.BenG wrote:In 2009, Tejas mk1 was deemed a complete failure without Kaveri and a new turbofan was needed. Tejas mk2 was sanctioned because a new turbofan means a new plane. With mk1a, the failure has been overcome. So Tejas mk2 necessity no longer exists. Now DRDO is trying to put cart before horse. Here too, instead of IAF's choice EJ200, DRDO chose F414 because it was cheaper and quite similar to F404.
This is the point I was trying to make to Rakesh. If we had not been too deferential to the IAF brass, we would have questioned them hard on why they are not fully supporting the Kaveri program and reduce our dependence on foreign engines and force a change in their thinking and mentality. Rakesh would rather have us continue to be deferential to the IAF brass, claiming that the IAF know better than us and he would rather listen to them than to us or the decision makers.maitya wrote: ↑27 Nov 2023 11:38 Anyway, to conclude:
But, actually, this so-called K9 failure, gave to the the-then import-pasand MoD-and-user-community-brass, the perfect opportunity to kill the indigenous TF program - which they swiftly and very successfully did.
Their excuse ofcourse was, the time-tested, "operational requirement/necessity", "doctrine", accompanied by constantly pointing to the variable-width strips on thie shoulder lapels.
What nobody cross-questioned of course was - what "doctrine", what "operational necessity", when the order is measly 40 platforms (for somebody dreaming/projecting for a 49sq (?) force-structure).
But in our country, the shoulder-lapel-strip-widths etc, are the stuff that always gets the importance etc.
Actually, they were so afraid of the Kaveri-program to make a come-back later, and thus challenge their furrin-funded-gravy-train, they completely killed the whatever drip-feed R&D funding that was made available in 2009/10, as well.
(No dry-kaveri etc doesn't count, as it was funded much later, after an almost insistent-and-never-giving-up GTRE folks - more like a lollipop, in form of science project, to shut-up a persistent-crybaby).
Latest we are hearing is that GTRE are back at again groveling-at-the-MoD-baboon-collective-feets, to allow them some funding for a multi-axis 3D TV R&D, centred around Kaveri etc.
(refer to the Kaveri thread).
hguptaji, IMVHO, the bigger failure was not able to force a larger MK1 order (say ~120 etc, 83 etc came much later) at the very outset - and even bigger failure was to allow the "negotiations" (between essentially two different arms of the govt) for these 83 that started about 3 years hence, to drag on for almost an decade+).hgupta wrote: ↑27 Nov 2023 12:14This is the point I was trying to make to Rakesh. If we had not been too deferential to the IAF brass, we would have questioned them hard on why they are not fully supporting the Kaveri program and reduce our dependence on foreign engines and force a change in their thinking and mentality. Rakesh would rather have us continue to be deferential to the IAF brass, claiming that the IAF know better than us and he would rather listen to them than to us or the decision makers.maitya wrote: ↑27 Nov 2023 11:38 Anyway, to conclude:
But, actually, this so-called K9 failure, gave to the the-then import-pasand MoD-and-user-community-brass, the perfect opportunity to kill the indigenous TF program - which they swiftly and very successfully did.
Their excuse ofcourse was, the time-tested, "operational requirement/necessity", "doctrine", accompanied by constantly pointing to the variable-width strips on thie shoulder lapels.
What nobody cross-questioned of course was - what "doctrine", what "operational necessity", when the order is measly 40 platforms (for somebody dreaming/projecting for a 49sq (?) force-structure).
But in our country, the shoulder-lapel-strip-widths etc, are the stuff that always gets the importance etc.
Actually, they were so afraid of the Kaveri-program to make a come-back later, and thus challenge their furrin-funded-gravy-train, they completely killed the whatever drip-feed R&D funding that was made available in 2009/10, as well.
(No dry-kaveri etc doesn't count, as it was funded much later, after an almost insistent-and-never-giving-up GTRE folks - more like a lollipop, in form of science project, to shut-up a persistent-crybaby).
Latest we are hearing is that GTRE are back at again groveling-at-the-MoD-baboon-collective-feets, to allow them some funding for a multi-axis 3D TV R&D, centred around Kaveri etc.
(refer to the Kaveri thread).
Who was responsible for dragging out the negotiations and limiting the purchase order to only 83? DRDO had been crying out loud that we need bigger orders to get more economy of scale and to ramp up production rates. IAF did not listen because it was afraid it would derail its Rafale acquisition program. What did we get in the end? Falling squadron numbers and inventory.maitya wrote: ↑27 Nov 2023 12:55hguptaji, IMVHO, the bigger failure was not able to force a larger MK1 order (say ~120 etc, 83 etc came much later) at the very outset - and even bigger failure was to allow the "negotiations" (between essentially two different arms of the govt) for these 83 that started about 3 years hence, to drag on for almost an decade+).hgupta wrote: ↑27 Nov 2023 12:14
This is the point I was trying to make to Rakesh. If we had not been too deferential to the IAF brass, we would have questioned them hard on why they are not fully supporting the Kaveri program and reduce our dependence on foreign engines and force a change in their thinking and mentality. Rakesh would rather have us continue to be deferential to the IAF brass, claiming that the IAF know better than us and he would rather listen to them than to us or the decision makers.
You may have also noticed, how the "imported" component/sub-system, the TF, was order in bulk in one go.
How on earth any production agency, would plan for a mass production-setup against such a measly order?
Instead, the whole-sole focus was to somehow import Rafale, at all cost - that ofcourse IMVHO, makes it neither a bad platform nor a bad choice for the role that was envisaged for it by IAF - I'm actually fully supportive of that acquisition.
Only that, the disproportionate nature of focus and the all-too-evident step-motherly treatment to an indigenous program, is what rankles the most.
From indigenous TF program perspective, I agree with you, instead of cutting-off funding, actually funding should have been increased with an aim to first baseline the K9 (in whatever form/state it was - and betw it was at a very commendable form/state even in 2009 etc), and then graduate to a 4+ gen TF program (K10).
Instead. all that happened, was some half-hearted attempt to get an imported-core from Snecma et all, which was almost destined to fail (in the negotiation stage itself) and it thus did - actually, I do commend IAF brass, for seeing thru that charade, at that time.
hgupta wrote: ↑13 Aug 2023 00:45If the PLAAF can produce 5k pilots with sufficient skills to pilot the aircrafts during combat, you may have a point. But you forget one key thing - without man in the loop, the most advanced flying machine is nothing but a dumb brick.
It is not so easy to produce and maintain 5k pilots with sufficient skills.
Give it another 20-years…
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