Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Cain Marko » 12 Jul 2019 04:47

fanne wrote:AF-31- I have no doubt that the plane will need to grow in size (in fact bigger than MWF, which may not be a bad thing, we get a multi-role entry level fighter that is no longer a poor man choice in the line of GNAT, Mig 21 and LCA, forever restricted on range) - and thus be costlier etc. (and some bases e.g. Srinagar and Awantipur infra have to be expanded to accommodate these). At that point, while we continue with overall engine development, a la Kaveri, we should own AL-31 and produce 100% of it inhouse (with RU help if possible, without there help or in spite of their help). We are at x% already there (50% to 80% depending on what media report you want to believe).
I am not advocating (like Philips may) moving LCA with AL-31. The current path with 404/414 is the best. But should sanction come in play, there is a way out.

Well, I'm not entirely sure. The MWF and mirage 2000 will have very similar empty weights and possibly dimensions as well. Now consider that the mirage had an engine - M53, almost the same weight and length as the al31, and we see that things might not be so out of the realm of possibility.

The MWF is going to need drastic changes compared to the current mk1. And will take an easy 10 years. I don't see why they should be limited to the f414.

Even worse, the 414 will not result in a much better twr than the mk1 considering the increase in weight. Especially when they add on another ton for the naval version. So all in all, we are likely to see the underpowered issue to rear it's ugly head again especially if there are nefarious powers in decision making circles that want to scuttle Desi efforts, as BRFites often suggest.

Going with a larger Al 31 type engine mitigates all these issues including CAATSA related shit.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nachiket » 12 Jul 2019 05:00

Why are we discussing MWF here when we have a separate thread for the same?
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7689&start=200

Please move the discussion there. This thread is for Mk1 and 1A discussions only.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby LakshmanPST » 12 Jul 2019 09:56

Noob question:-
If US puts sanctions on 404/414 in future, and assuming Kaveri is not ready, do we have an alternative to this engine from any other Manufacturer...?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Cain Marko » 12 Jul 2019 10:22

LakshmanPST wrote:Noob question:-
If US puts sanctions on 404/414 in future, and assuming Kaveri is not ready, do we have an alternative to this engine from any other Manufacturer...?

The EJ 200 was the original competitor to the 414. But one hopes that a Kaveri comes through soon enough. Possibly through the Snecma tie up. Although hope is not exactly the best strategy. Hence the AL 31 tangent above...

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kakarat » 12 Jul 2019 11:26

Look at the patch Vice Chief of the Air Staff, Air Marshal RKS Bhadauria is wearing during his visit to France for flying the Rafale

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Khalsa » 12 Jul 2019 17:25

Till the Carrot of MMRCA 2.0 remains aloft , no CATSA and no tap OFF for the GE Engines.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Vips » 12 Jul 2019 18:49

LakshmanPST wrote:Noob question:-
If US puts sanctions on 404/414 in future, and assuming Kaveri is not ready, do we have an alternative to this engine from any other Manufacturer...?


Uncle Sam would be shooting himself in the foot as any plan it has of making India move away to US military wares will be done with. At the worst, India will always have the option of Kaveri with the M88 Core to fall back on.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Cybaru » 12 Jul 2019 22:30

Kaveri with M88 core is what we should be testing away if GTRE engine isnt going to make it. It is time to do something.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby SaiK » 14 Jul 2019 08:09

if GTRE has not been on the lines of ISRO, please understand they are already bought out by firangies. Impossible that we allow.. means deep-state is already in action. They will ensure Kaveri will fail, and GTRE will remain the same.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby dinesh_kimar » 14 Jul 2019 09:38

^ Saar, in previous posts in Kaveri thread, I had given testing info as per MIL -500E spec (aero engine test). They had completed a 150 h endurance test, which was qualified by SNECMA. Next was flight tests.

The then SAs of DRDO had talked abt flight testing by 2017, subsequent 2019 on an LCA after pre flight trails of abt 100h.

Ramana Sir's post abt stopping testing under US pressure as part of a deal for supply of something else (FBW components, F 404 engines?) Seems to be happening. Can't be any other explanation.

India should assume aero engine sanctions and test in closed door labs, in secret, like ISRO and missiles.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby kit » 14 Jul 2019 16:12

A bit of history..

" New Soviet airframe designs from their design bureaus, and near-sonic wing designs were threatening to outstrip development of the jet engines needed to power them. Soviet aviation minister Mikhail Khrunichevand aircraft designer Alexander Sergeyevich Yakovlev suggested to Joseph Stalin that the USSR buy advanced jet engines from the British. Stalin is said to have replied: "What fool will sell us his secrets?"[5]However, he gave his assent to the proposal, and Artem Mikoyan, engine designer Klimov, and other officials traveled to the United Kingdom to request the engines. To Stalin's amazement, the British Labour government and its pro-Soviet Minister of Trade, Sir Stafford Cripps were willing to provide technical information and a licence to manufacture the Rolls-Royce Nene centrifugal-flow jet engine. This engine was reverse-engineered and produced in modified form as the Soviet Klimov VK-1 jet engine, later incorporated into the MiG-15(Rolls-Royce later attempted to claim £207 millions in licence fees, without success) "

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Cain Marko » 15 Jul 2019 06:02

^ The problem, as I understand, is not that India can't build a workable turbojet equivalent to what was being done in the 50s and 60s. The problem is with the more advanced metallurgy needed to get top end turbofans to work. Even so, they managed about 7.5 tons AB thrust on the kaveri. It bugs me that this engine was not used for a twin engined MRCA type. A Rafale clone should have been attempted, and possibly at least an advanced MiG 29/F-18 could have resulted.

The MWF or AMCA 1.0 should have been a twin engined bird running on skinny Kaveri with 7.5 tons thrust. The weak engine would have been compensated by the twin design and we would have had a totally local, high powered MRCA suitable for naval ops even. This pursuit of a single engined design could prove to be a damn costly mistake.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Bharadwaj » 17 Jul 2019 18:58

http://zeenews.india.com/india/hal-bols ... 19840.html

According to Minister of State, Defence, Shripad Naik the task of integrating Brahmos supersonic cruise missile on IAF Su-30 MKI "will also be a gainful utilisation of HAL's skilled manpower" while the manufacturing capacity for the indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) has been ramped up from eight planes to 16 per year. Naik pointed out that the Narendra Modi government has prioritised the two projects - 83 Tejas LCA-MK1A and 15 Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) for finalisation for which Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) has already given approval.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 19 Jul 2019 03:55

HAL Doubles LCA Tejas Production Capacity, Sukhoi SU-30 MKI Repair And Overhaul Capability Enhanced
https://swarajyamag.com/insta/hal-doubl ... y-enhanced

Replying to a question in the Lok Sabha, Minister of State for Defence, Shripad Naik has informed that Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has doubled its manufacturing capability of the indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft from 8 to 16 per annum. Production of 83 Tejas LCA-MK1A and 15 Light Combat Helicopters (LCH) has been prioritised by the NDA government at the Centre, he said.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nash » 26 Jul 2019 20:21

From MoD report:
https://mod.gov.in/sites/default/files/MoDAR2018.pdf

Active Electronically Scanned Array Radar (AESAR) ‘Uttam’: AESAR ‘Uttam’ is an airborne fire control radar for our indigenous fighter aircraft LCA ‘Tejas’. It is a multi-mode radar which can be configured for fitment on different airborne platforms. Shake down sorties were completed in January, 2019 on modified executive Jet hired. Indigenous AESA radar integration and EMI/EMC tests on LCA ‘Tejas’ LSP2 aircraft are nearing completion and flight evaluation is planned shortly.


This seems exciting.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nam » 26 Jul 2019 20:24

It is already flying with Uttam.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nash » 26 Jul 2019 21:00

nam wrote:It is already flying with Uttam.


Thats what I heard after AI-2019, but didn't see much details in public.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nam » 26 Jul 2019 21:08

The confirmation details are in the previous page of this thread!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ashishvikas » 04 Aug 2019 14:41

2052 is under integration.

Uttam is flying on LCA.

Whichever meets IAF"s requirements will be inducted.

Indigenous EW suite is called UEWS (Unified....) Under development at DARE for LCA.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/11579 ... 91936?s=19

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby srai » 05 Aug 2019 08:08

^^^
Too late for Uttam on LCA Mk1A. But definitely will be on LCA Mk2 MWF.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby JayS » 06 Aug 2019 23:03

Some interesting info from HAL TP HV Thakur saar

Link to the thread: https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1157834605870944257

We're integrating Astra, ASRAAM and other weapons available in India.
i.e. with LCA.

Taking full advantage of the indigenous platform, the architecture caters to integrating any missile and /or any radar. The Indian mission computer, which is the brain of the LCA, controls the assets completely. There is no need for direct dialogue between radar and missile.


2052 is under integration. Uttam is flying on LCA. Whichever meets IAF"s requirements will be inducted. Indigenous EW suite is called UEWS (Unified....) Under development at DARE for LCA.


2052 only for trials so far. Not yet for 83.


In short, there is no deal signed for 83 AESA so far for the LCA MK1A. And It could end up either way, 2052 or Uttam.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ArjunPandit » 06 Aug 2019 23:44

just waiting for the next rounds of planes sir..

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Gyan » 07 Aug 2019 00:37

After deals for 83 LCA & their AESA radars are signed, it will take 4 years for the first LCA MKIA to roll out. Hence there will be maximum 24 LCA MKI produced in next 4-5 years.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 07 Aug 2019 02:48

1. Uttam has been flying on LSP 2 for a while. Up till now the performance has been found to be good. Netra was great during Balakot.
2. Mk1 heading for final set of tests to finalize flight computer/auto pilot.
3. Mk1A is still on paper. HAL has been asked for justification of costs. First prototype will most likely be a modified LSP.
4. NLCA headed for first trap on SBTF.
5. First prototype of Mk2 to be likely by 2022/23.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Cybaru » 07 Aug 2019 02:53

Indranil wrote:3. Mk1A is still on paper. HAL has been asked for justification of costs. First prototype will most likely be a modified LSP.


Shouldn't they have been on this? When will they start?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby srai » 07 Aug 2019 03:36

^^^

It sounds like major pieces of enhancements for Mk1A already well underway. Two AESA radars are being integrated and tested. UTTAM is pretty far along. Best bit is that the radar and weapons are decoupled.

UEWS under R&D. External Israeli jammer has been selected for integration. CFD with CCM and Jammer pod have been underway for a while. Probably wind tunnel tests as well.

Pretty sure CAD for internal rearrangement is in progress with iron-bird test rig setup for certification. The work was already underway for the original LCA AF Mk.2 design.

As the changes are internal, airframes can continue to be built after 16 LCA Mk.1 FOC and 16 Trainer FOC variants are completed in another 3 years.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 07 Aug 2019 04:58

Indranil wrote:1. Uttam has been flying on LSP 2 for a while. Up till now the performance has been found to be good. Netra was great during Balakot.
2. Mk1 heading for final set of tests to finalize flight computer/auto pilot.
3. Mk1A is still on paper. HAL has been asked for justification of costs. First prototype will most likely be a modified LSP.
4. NLCA headed for first trap on SBTF.
5. First prototype of Mk2 to be likely by 2022/23.


That bit on the Uttam is really heartening news! An indigenous airborne FCR, that too AESA is such a major achievement! I find it strange though that DRDO isn't making a big deal out of this. LSP-2's first flight with the Uttam AESA should have garnered media attention. Considering that hundreds of indigenous future fighters need to be built (MWF, AMCA) this could help save billions of dollars in foreign exchange. Plus allow for complete control over what can be integrated. Wonder if a scaled up Uttam could be used on the Super Sukhoi upgrade as well.

Mk1A should be a very high priority item as was stated in parliament. Hopefully the IAF and HAL resolve this as quickly as possible. I also expected from the very start that the Mk1A prototype should be a modified LSP. Not enough structural changes to justify a new build prototype.

First prototype of MWF to be rolled out by 2022/23 or to be flown for the first time by 2022/23?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby fanne » 07 Aug 2019 06:07

Srai sir, why do you say that radar and weapon decoupled is a good thing? There is nothing called radar and weapon decoupled, unless the weapon party is willing to share the codes of the weapon to be integrated with the radar (along with the EW suite, which we do not have a good one of our own, none that is being integrated with Uttam). Israelis may not give Derby (they would want us to buy their 2052), Russians have not given us anyway and French have refused.
Unless we have an Uttam working, Astra working AND integrated with Uttam AND an EW suite that works with it (easily many years away, all three conditions), we have no choice to go with 2052 (I hope we take the pragmatic decision). At least for 83 LCA MK1A. We can perhaps upgrade the 40 LCA MK 1with Uttam down few years. Yes Uttam and derivative should have matured by when MWF comes around. We are down on numbers.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ks_sachin » 07 Aug 2019 11:48

fanne:

this is what srai means and in reference to JayS

"Taking full advantage of the indigenous platform, the architecture caters to integrating any missile and /or any radar. The Indian mission computer, which is the brain of the LCA, controls the assets completely. There is no need for direct dialogue between radar and missile"

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby sankum » 07 Aug 2019 12:24

From the tweets the plan of HAL for tejas production is as below.
16 nos FOC mk1 2019-20
16 nos mk1a 2020-21
16 nos mk1a + 8 mk1 Trainer 2021-22
16 nos mk1a+ 8 mk1a Trainer 2022-23
22 nos mk1a+ 2mk1a Trainer 2023-24
3nos mk1a +maybe 18 NLCA mk1 Trainer? 2024-25
Sport Trainer in 2025-27.(40 nos est)
Tejas mk2 from 2027.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Bhaskar_T » 08 Aug 2019 15:08

Tweets done by whom? Could you kindly provide the reference of the Twitter profile?

sankum wrote:From the tweets the plan of HAL for tejas production is as below.
16 nos FOC mk1 2019-20
16 nos mk1a 2020-21
16 nos mk1a + 8 mk1 Trainer 2021-22
16 nos mk1a+ 8 mk1a Trainer 2022-23
22 nos mk1a+ 2mk1a Trainer 2023-24
3nos mk1a +maybe 18 NLCA mk1 Trainer? 2024-25
Sport Trainer in 2025-27.(40 nos est)
Tejas mk2 from 2027.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby sankum » 08 Aug 2019 16:03

@hvtiaf
H V Thakur

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby sankum » 08 Aug 2019 19:41

. What is the update on AESA radar? The AESA radar is integrated with the Light Combat Aircraft. The test and evaluation are going on at the moment. We are confident that AESA radar would be fully proven by the next year and would be ready for induction on Tejas Mk 1A.

.


https://idrw.org/uttam-aesa-will-be-rea ... ore-207022

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ramana » 08 Aug 2019 19:49

sankum wrote:@hvtiaf
H V Thakur



sankum, Thanks for summarizing.

We can now lock this schedule up Rakesh.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby sankum » 08 Aug 2019 19:55

Please the thing about 18 NLCA mk1 Trainer order is based on Indranil input on Kartik wish and is my guess as likely and is not on HV THAKUR input but sufficient capacity is there in the time period.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 08 Aug 2019 20:14

ramana wrote:
sankum wrote:@hvtiaf
H V Thakur



sankum, Thanks for summarizing.

We can now lock this schedule up Rakesh.

Indeed. Thank you sankum for this info.

Ramana-ji, I sent you email. Please check.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby LakshmanPST » 08 Aug 2019 23:54

sankum wrote:From the tweets the plan of HAL for tejas production is as below.
16 nos FOC mk1 2019-20
16 nos mk1a 2020-21
16 nos mk1a + 8 mk1 Trainer 2021-22
16 nos mk1a+ 8 mk1a Trainer 2022-23
22 nos mk1a+ 2mk1a Trainer 2023-24
3nos mk1a +maybe 18 NLCA mk1 Trainer? 2024-25
Sport Trainer in 2025-27.(40 nos est)
Tejas mk2 from 2027.


sankum wrote:@hvtiaf
H V Thakur


I checked his timeline but couldn't find the schedule posted in the post above...
Can you provide specific link to the tweet...

Can we really expect 16 Mk1As by 2021, when the contract was not even signed with HAL yet...?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ashishvikas » 09 Aug 2019 00:15

sankum wrote:From the tweets the plan of HAL for tejas production is as below.
16 nos FOC mk1 2019-20
16 nos mk1a 2020-21
16 nos mk1a + 8 mk1 Trainer 2021-22
16 nos mk1a+ 8 mk1a Trainer 2022-23
22 nos mk1a+ 2mk1a Trainer 2023-24
3nos mk1a +maybe 18 NLCA mk1 Trainer? 2024-25
Sport Trainer in 2025-27.(40 nos est)
Tejas mk2 from 2027.


@hvtiaf
H V Thakur hasn't tweeted this..

Mk1A is only after 3 yrs of contract signing.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby sankum » 09 Aug 2019 00:17

There were series of tweets over time not with exact numbers.
1.The production line will not stop after 16 FOC mk1 and will quickly move to 16 mk1a as on the outward both are same ,only difference is Internal as worried people were asking for mk1a is not developed or still sanctioned.
2. Several varients are being developed and the trainer versions will come above the 16 nos single seater/year. (Now the first mk1 trainer will only roll out in second half of 2021 as SOP was only in early 2019 .So only in 2021-22 full production rate of 24/year can be expected instead of 2020-21 in first page of this thread.)
3.SPORT trainer production will take place after mk1a production will be over.
4.7 years for Tejas mk2 to be ready for production..(2027).
5. AMCA production only in 2035.

Based on above data I projected . And news sources have repeatedly said that mk1a production will be over by 2024-25.
For NLCA mk1 Trainer early news sources said 19 nos will be ordered for training purpose and also Indrani input as order being considered for IN
Six months delay or even one year delay will not make much difference.
Last edited by sankum on 09 Aug 2019 00:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby LakshmanPST » 09 Aug 2019 00:26



This quote in the interview:-
Tejas II is progressing well. The design phase has been completed. As far as the engine is concerned, the user is satisfied with the present one used and so we will go with the same.


He talking about Mk1A or Mk2 (MWF) when he said Tejas II...?
They're going to use the same engine as present one (FE404)...


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