MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby krishna_krishna » 16 Aug 2019 04:02

chetak wrote:https://twitter.com/sankrant/status/1160493806120136704 ---> Pakistan's terrorist army tortured officer Saurabh Kalia, gouged his eyes out, mutilated him. What changed from then that they returned Abhinandan? Not the Pak army, but Modi. Pakistan was scared to death of what would happen if they mistreated Abhinandan.


Untrue flt lt. nachicketa was returned too in Kargil days, whenever there is deniability poekies do that. Only when they get world focus on them they behave nicely , casein point cmdr kulbhushan jadav

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 19 Aug 2019 00:26

Guys, Sq Ldr Sameer Joshi will have his article out tomorrow on the shoot-down of the Viper by the Bison. Keep your eyes peeled. ;)

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Bishwa » 20 Aug 2019 10:45

This is the story of how Abhinandan shot down the F16
Written by Sameer Joshi (ex IAF pilot) with inputs from 2 BRF members Shiv and me, 2 DFI members Anup and Raghu and an ex IAF pilot Anshuman Maniker

It appreared in the Print just now

https://theprint.in/defence/8-pieces-of ... 16/278752/

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 20 Aug 2019 11:13

Great job Bishwa, you and Samir and everyone else.

I remember reading your work on the RR ages ago, how time flies. Glad to still have you with us. :)

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Bishwa » 20 Aug 2019 12:07

Thanx Karan... Yes time flies :-)

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 20 Aug 2019 12:23

Bishwa wrote:This is the story of how Abhinandan shot down the F16
Written by Sameer Joshi (ex IAF pilot) with inputs from 2 BRF members Shiv and me, 2 DFI members Anup and Raghu and an ex IAF pilot Anshuman Maniker

It appreared in the Print just now

https://theprint.in/defence/8-pieces-of ... 16/278752/


Read this article, confirms that there was 50 second gap from firing the R-73 to Wing Commander being shot down, Other IAF aircraft Alpha2 or a SU-30 should have fired R-77's from locking on to the Mig 21 Bison. The wasting of R-77 may have been against IAF ethos, I hope the IAF makes changes.

And I hope the PAF is given its medicine with SU-30 firing at Mach 2 missiles at slower flying F-16's.

The Su-30MKI did a good job avoiding Amraam's shot at them by aircraft coming in high and fast- this was the best case scenario in F-16 Vs SU30MKI and still flopped- IAF aircraft at subsonic CAP just checking to see what PAF aircraft are upto when the launch their missiles at Max speed and altitude.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 20 Aug 2019 12:38

What 27 Feb 19 shows that PAF is more of an aggressive air force with little thinking and more focused on air to air kills, burst the bubble of the PAF and the entire Paki nation will come crashing down.

One aspect is I disagree and there is no consensus, the Charhoi video, Ghaffoora's Tweets, it seems that the F-16 that was downed was a twin seater, the 1 Pilot will ejecting got caught in the tail shoot of the F-16 and died on 27 Feb itself after being hospitalized and the other died from injuries sustained by POK locals- he was bearded man and described as IAF "SIkh" Pilot on 5 Mar 19- as put out by a PAF ground crew tweet- someone very dear to him had died.

The video of loading the F-16 drop tank with wing fairings on to the PA truck while the MIg 21 Bison debris were kept for all sundry to pose with is another clear indicator.

I hope some day wreakage of F-16, tail number and Pilot or Pilots names are put out.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Khalsa » 20 Aug 2019 14:11

Just about to say what a wonderful article.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ArjunPandit » 20 Aug 2019 14:16

everytime i think this thread should be closed, i am pleasantly surprised..thanks to all for coming up with this great work. Keep up the great work. Aap log twitter pe bhi perception victory nahin lene de rahe and major gaurav arya has attacked their next battleground TikTok

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 20 Aug 2019 14:26

But Kudos to those who spent time and effort in writing the article and getting the truth out, painstakingly going through various OSINT info and videos. The Tadpole and non tadpole is a clear clincher for anyone with an open mind that 2 different aircraft went down that day.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 20 Aug 2019 17:45

What an amazing article. The detail and the thorough research is fantastic.

Kudos to Sameer Joshi, Bishwa and others who contributed to this article.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby mmasand » 20 Aug 2019 19:59

BIG: A Pakistani commando who was behind the capture of Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman when his IAF jet crashed in Pakistani territory in February this year, and had reportedly tortured the IAF pilot, has been killed in firing by Indian forces along the Line of Control.

According to reports, Ahmed Khan, a subedar with the Pakistan Army's Special Service Group, was killed by the Indian Army in Nakyal sector of the LoC on August 17 when he was trying to facilitate more infiltrators into India.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rsatchi » 20 Aug 2019 20:01

mmasand wrote:BIG: A Pakistani commando who was behind the capture of Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman when his IAF jet crashed in Pakistani territory in February this year, and had reportedly tortured the IAF pilot, has been killed in firing by Indian forces along the Line of Control.

According to reports, Ahmed Khan, a subedar with the Pakistan Army's Special Service Group, was killed by the Indian Army in Nakyal sector of the LoC on August 17 when he was trying to facilitate more infiltrators into India.

Jai Ho!! shouldn't this be tom-tom ed in our press 8)

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 20 Aug 2019 20:02

Payback is a bitch. May he enjoy his 72s.

Pak commando behind capture of Abhinandan killed
https://www.nationalheraldindia.com/nat ... dan-killed

Image

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby fanne » 20 Aug 2019 21:09

One other thing - Did you know Baistan gave higher medal/honor to the pilot who shot down Mig 21 (Abhinandan) and lower medal to the pilot who supposedly shot down SU30MKI (yeah right).
That effectively means that downing the SU30MKI was a propgandu (not that we didn't know). It was initially to cover for dusra banda (that it was the su 30mki pilot, but if it were true, hand over the live/dead bodies of these pilots), then as a proof for the second video of an aireal shoot down doing rounds (which was F-16 actually).
PAF must be browning it salwars as of now. 27th Feb really gave them a rude shock (and that's why since then, we have been dominating the air sweeps)

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 20 Aug 2019 21:47

Both their Air to Air and A to G failed on 27 Feb and they could not engage IAF on 26 Feb. That's why they have been closing airspace tried using Drones, lost a few in March and have been making propaganda videos for Paki awam.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby vasu raya » 20 Aug 2019 21:52

This was one their favorite pictures to show on tweeter, can't do it anymore without seeing their own loss, kismet

the article on f-16 downing talks about 5-6 radars seeing the air picture, why is that none could make the RWR on the other F-16s go off? ground defence have that range I believe, the system should have helped Abhinandan, all he was carrying were AAMs

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 20 Aug 2019 22:07

There were no IAF /IA radar Sam's .from the article Abhinandan used passive IR lock on the F16. Who said he did not get RWR, he was in the process of getting back to the LOC. In the Mig 21 downing video you can also see another aircraft Alpha 2 also getting. Video with Tadpole is F16.Video of the aircraft falling straight down is Mig 21

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby vasu raya » 20 Aug 2019 22:20

The article writers took great pains with the details, I am not questioning it, just wondering why no IADS node was able to paint enemy aircraft flying some 20-30km from LoC that too at altitude

Abhinandan made a turn and did a zoom up maneuver to avoid ground fire, was he confident that Indian IADS would have kept the other F-16's at bay? usually to avoid missile locks diving down to the deck is the norm - armchair wiki

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 20 Aug 2019 22:35

IADS radars are not FireControl Radars to paint Targetsthat too for fighters. And as far I know except for F22 etc launcher aircrafts FCR locks on to the target.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby vasu raya » 20 Aug 2019 22:41

It would be surprising if we didn't have the capability to shoot down aircraft some 20-30kms inside paki territory across LoC, its usually the rules of engagement that come into play first, then maybe terrain etc

with the S-400 we are hoping to extend that reach deep inside TSP with both surveillance and targeting

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ArjunPandit » 20 Aug 2019 22:55

we all should thank pakistanis that unlike in past they havent come up with false peace posturing ....like in mushy's time when gen paddy had made the tail and continuation in fray remarks. I still remember paddy's vivid eyes

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 20 Aug 2019 23:09

Rsatchi wrote:
mmasand wrote:BIG: A Pakistani commando who was behind the capture of Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman when his IAF jet crashed in Pakistani territory in February this year, and had reportedly tortured the IAF pilot, has been killed in firing by Indian forces along the Line of Control.

According to reports, Ahmed Khan, a subedar with the Pakistan Army's Special Service Group, was killed by the Indian Army in Nakyal sector of the LoC on August 17 when he was trying to facilitate more infiltrators into India.

Jai Ho!! shouldn't this be tom-tom ed in our press 8)


The widely circulating, respected Economic Times is carrying an article.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 754738.cms

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ramana » 20 Aug 2019 23:17

Rakesh wrote
Payback is a bitch. May he enjoy his 72s.


May they be all like Shirleen!!!

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ramana » 20 Aug 2019 23:32

I was hoping Gen Paddy would be first Lt Governor of UJK or UL. But he is has done his time and should enjoy his rest.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Prasad » 20 Aug 2019 23:42

ramana wrote:I was hoping Gen Paddy would be first Lt Governor of UJK or UL. But he is has done his time and should enjoy his rest.

Should be physically able sir. Age is a thing unfortunately.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby krishna_krishna » 21 Aug 2019 00:31

ramana wrote:Rakesh wrote
Payback is a bitch. May he enjoy his 72s.


May they be all like Shirleen!!!


May be he was one of the gents in capture of WC Abhinandan, but in no way looks the same person in the photos. Gent behind WC seems too tall and features are different .

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Jay » 21 Aug 2019 01:47

Aditya_V wrote:
Bishwa wrote:This is the story of how Abhinandan shot down the F16
Written by Sameer Joshi (ex IAF pilot) with inputs from 2 BRF members Shiv and me, 2 DFI members Anup and Raghu and an ex IAF pilot Anshuman Maniker

It appreared in the Print just now

https://theprint.in/defence/8-pieces-of ... 16/278752/


Read this article, confirms that there was 50 second gap from firing the R-73 to Wing Commander being shot down, Other IAF aircraft Alpha2 or a SU-30 should have fired R-77's from locking on to the Mig 21 Bison. The wasting of R-77 may have been against IAF ethos, I hope the IAF makes changes.

And I hope the PAF is given its medicine with SU-30 firing at Mach 2 missiles at slower flying F-16's.

The Su-30MKI did a good job avoiding Amraam's shot at them by aircraft coming in high and fast- this was the best case scenario in F-16 Vs SU30MKI and still flopped- IAF aircraft at subsonic CAP just checking to see what PAF aircraft are upto when the launch their missiles at Max speed and altitude.


Without knowing more details and taking the article at face value, I agree with what you are saying.

Abhinandan, was cautioned by the IAF fighter controller at the IACCS node about an F-16 Barrier Combat Air Patrol (BARCAP) going HOT, turning around to face him — with Alpha formation advised to go COLD and return back across the LoC. While Alpha-2, Abhinandan’s No. 2 turned back, Abhinandan pressed on his quest to lock on to the marauding PAF jets.


The above situation is what I do not comprehend. Why was the Alpha formation advised to go COLD, even after the paki BARCAP went HOT? Is there a legitimate reason for this or was IAF trying to avoid conflict and refused to take initiative or respond in a proper way?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby LakshmanPST » 21 Aug 2019 07:32

Jay wrote:
Abhinandan, was cautioned by the IAF fighter controller at the IACCS node about an F-16 Barrier Combat Air Patrol (BARCAP) going HOT, turning around to face him — with Alpha formation advised to go COLD and return back across the LoC. While Alpha-2, Abhinandan’s No. 2 turned back, Abhinandan pressed on his quest to lock on to the marauding PAF jets.


The above situation is what I do not comprehend. Why was the Alpha formation advised to go COLD, even after the paki BARCAP went HOT? Is there a legitimate reason for this or was IAF trying to avoid conflict and refused to take initiative or respond in a proper way?


My guess is, Armed Forces were clearly instructed by Govt. not to escalate things and limit themselves to defending territory & assets... There can be multiple reasons for this both from political side and military side...
So, Ground Control might be trying to avoid serious conflict, but Abhinandan would have seen an opportunity there... He must have thought that he could make it back...
The speed at which things are happening, he would have made it back to the Indian side of LOC if the missile hit him some 20-30 seconds later...
-
Once again, this is only my guess...

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby deejay » 21 Aug 2019 08:35

Jay wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:
...



The above situation is what I do not comprehend. Why was the Alpha formation advised to go COLD, even after the paki BARCAP went HOT? Is there a legitimate reason for this or was IAF trying to avoid conflict and refused to take initiative or respond in a proper way?


IMO, the go cold order was to avoid crossing LOC, odds were heavily with PAF that side of the border. The mission was to prevent PAF in making inroads into Indian Airspace and not to go across and hunt. With PAF aircraft back in Pakistani Airspace, "Go Cold" was a natural progression.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 21 Aug 2019 09:00

Yes, don't get ambushed basically. Also, the work of the GCI is to ensure the MiG-21s are in the most opportune position and "safe". If the controller thought these guys were at significant risk of being outnumbered and fired on first (and shot down) she'd be warning them to get out of trouble. She mentions posture repeatedly in the interview. So basically, she was tracking the direction/speed/alt changes of the BARCAP and hence intent. If the IACCS is pulling in the ESM feed from the Phalcon, she likely even knew the AEW&CS was tasking two of the PAF Vipers to take down the IAF aircraft or directing them at least.


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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 21 Aug 2019 09:42

Those of you on twitter please tag Rajnath Singh ji and ask him why so much of a delay on LCA Mk1A orders.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 21 Aug 2019 10:54

On a more interesting note - the R73E kill credibility established by Sameer & team, has effectively validated many of the IAF's procurement decisions and supports their existing inventory as well. Our existing Flanker, MiG-29, Mirage 2000 fleet is lethal. Now for that ODL.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nam » 21 Aug 2019 12:23

Aditya_V wrote:
Read this article, confirms that there was 50 second gap from firing the R-73 to Wing Commander being shot down, Other IAF aircraft Alpha2 or a SU-30 should have fired R-77's from locking on to the Mig 21 Bison. The wasting of R-77 may have been against IAF ethos, I hope the IAF makes changes.

And I hope the PAF is given its medicine with SU-30 firing at Mach 2 missiles at slower flying F-16's.

The Su-30MKI did a good job avoiding Amraam's shot at them by aircraft coming in high and fast- this was the best case scenario in F-16 Vs SU30MKI and still flopped- IAF aircraft at subsonic CAP just checking to see what PAF aircraft are upto when the launch their missiles at Max speed and altitude.


The issue is situational awareness. What you are suggesting is in the hindsight. When the F16 got hit, would all the pilots including the Su30 know what just happened? Nope. So within 50 sec, expecting pilots & GC( in multiple sectors) to clearly understand the situation and apply counter measure is bit too much.

My theory is that the 50 sec gap indicates, PAF had no intention of shooting down the Mig21 as it was flying towards them. It was only after WC Abhi fired one on to the Musharaff of that F16 that they forced to retaliate. Otherwise WC Abhi would have got hit ingressing across LC, not while coming back.

PAF was gunning for glory... i.e. Su30.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 21 Aug 2019 12:29

This is the BARCAP to prevent ingress into POK. The other detachments already tried ambushing the Su-30s, launched their LGBs etc and were back! The AEW&CS was turning Alpha flight to engage our Alpha flight (talk about the irony).

Were they shocked into action because Abhi fired first? Could be. But logic would suggest their BARCAP would fire anyhow. The GCI controller in her interview clearly mentions Abhi targeted the most threatening aircraft, posture wise & took him out. Also note, the BARCAP is not just deployed to protect sovereignty or the other retreating Vipers but there were other aircraft in theater too, including the AEW &CS, a DA-20 EW aircraft & the Beachcraft King Air ELINT aircraft which crashed the other day. So, tactically, the PAF would definitely defend their assets.

One thing is for sure, the PAF was shocked by the aggressiveness shown by Abhi. They didn't expect it, and were taken by surprise. We were supposed to be the "good boys" whom these "aggressive fighter jocks" ambushed. Yet, things turned out different. Their desire for a quick risk averse kill backfired (launching BVR but not closing in to try and exploit numerical superiority against 2x MKI) and then they didn't expect a charge by Abhi either. Done in by their own cockiness and bravado. You can see much the same in interactions with PAF guys anyplace - they are full of perceived superiority, whereas IAF, USAF, RAF, French pilots are much more level-headed and professional.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 21 Aug 2019 12:34

Sir small disagreement- only the F-16 which was shot down came close and launched the LGB- the other ordinance were H-2 Raptors- some of which fell in POK and H-4 RAAD's launched by the Mirages from well within POK.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 21 Aug 2019 12:37

Aditya_V wrote:Sir small disagreement- only the F-16 which was shot down came close and launched the LGB- the other ordinance were H-2 Raptors- some of which fell in POK and H-4 RAAD's launched by the Mirages from well within POK.


Yes, I am speaking in the general sense. Point is the BARCAP was no longer doing "strike" but a specific function.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby srai » 21 Aug 2019 13:49

Image
This image sums it up!

The two MiG-21s were within the PAF F-16 AMRAAM NEZ even though they were well inside the Indian LOC. They had committed themselves for the interception. Under normal engagement rules, both sides would have backed off. What was different this time round was the PAF was aggressively looking to shoot down IAF fighters, especially Su-30MKI. They had already fired AMRAAMs at MKIs just prior.

To me, it looks like MiG-21 “Alpha-1” (Abhinandan) made the covering run for his wingman who was getting out of the danger zone. As you can see in the image, F-16 “Alpha-3” was maneuvering for an AMRAAM shot on MiG-21 “Alpha-2”. If not for Abhi protecting the flank and shooting down F-16 “Alpha-3” and exposing his aircraft to other F-16s, both MiG-21s would likely have been shot down. There were 3-4 F-16s that could have lined up for AMRAAM shots.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Prasad » 21 Aug 2019 15:01

So if the Mig-21 had had a RWR, he would have had the chance to evade the incoming amraam and come back unscathed.


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