MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

GopiD · Post by **GopiD** » 02 Mar 2019 07:04

YashG wrote:86 seconds that changed seven decades of aviation history!

F16

F-16 is a fourth generation American fighter jet. In the five decades long history of F-16, it has been never been ONCE shot down on an offensive mission by another aircraft (1).

-----------------------------------------------
MIG-21

Mig 21 is one of the oldest fighter aircraft serving world militaries with a seven decades old legacy.

Now Air Forces around the world will also know about the stuff that IAF pilots are made of. You would never want to be on the wrong side of such an Air Force.

Thank you YashG for that amazing writeup. Learnt many new details. Very much appreciated.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 02 Mar 2019 07:09

chola wrote:
gpurewal wrote: Hats off to the Wg Cdr Abhinandan (I suddenly want to grow the same style of stache as him). The only question I have is why the Su-30 did not chase the F-16, while the MIG guarded the oil field? Was the intention that the Sukhoi hold the line while the 21's RTB, but the Wg Cdr decided to finish the job?
SDRE from the deepest and darkest of South India in Chennai flying an outdated relic from the 1960s sent a russkie AAM up the tight arsed tail pipe of a scion of one of Pakiland’s most TFTA of warrior families. Think about that!

Navjot Sidhu should think a little, perhaps this man caused Pakistan to decide not to prosecute war. If he did lock on to that F 16 and fire, he may have demonstrated what a formidable battle Pakistan was facing starting with the lowly MiG 21. Otherwise it would be Panjab that could have faced Pakistani tanks.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 02 Mar 2019 07:35

Guys, question. When our air defense systems detected Paki intrusions into our airspace, why did we have to send in our MIGs to repulse them? Why could we not have used SAMs? Judging from various reports, 2-3 Paki Fsolas reached well into 20 odd KM inside our side of the LoC. Wasn't that enough penetration for our SAMs to reach them?

salaam · Post by **salaam** » 02 Mar 2019 07:39

CRamS wrote:Guys, question. When our air defense systems detected Paki intrusions into our airspace, why did we have to send in our MIGs to repulse them? Why could we not have used SAMs? Judging from various reports, 2-3 Paki Fsolas reached well into 20 odd KM inside our side of the LoC. Wasn't that enough penetration for our SAMs to reach them?

SAM with civilian traffic on?

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 02 Mar 2019 08:05

CramS..we could not have used SAM's because of ROE. 20 km figure is not accurate. The ROE suggests IIRC that the PAF debris should fall inside Indian territory... if its a shallow ingress as it seems to be no way SAM's will come into play.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Mar 2019 08:11

salaam wrote:
CRamS wrote:Guys, question. When our air defense systems detected Paki intrusions into our airspace, why did we have to send in our MIGs to repulse them? Why could we not have used SAMs? Judging from various reports, 2-3 Paki Fsolahs reached well into 20 odd KM inside our side of the LoC. Wasn't that enough penetration for our SAMs to reach them?
SAM with civilian traffic on?

CRamS-ji, you are imagining things again

One F-16 went in as deep as only 3 km. Where is 20 km and where is 3 km? The others in the PAF strike package turned back on detecting the IAF's CAP team. The entire CAP team - Su-30MKIs, Mirage 2000s and MiG-21s - did repulse them. One of the MiG-21s - we know now piloted by Wing Commander Varthaman - gave chase and engaged one F-16 and shot it down. Unfortunately he got shot down as well.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 02 Mar 2019 08:15

You don't expect those Western "experts" to admit that the pride of their air forces was shot down by a "Russian junk" being flown by an SDRE would you?

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 02 Mar 2019 08:34

Now that the Wing Commander is back, he will reveal the details of the shoot down of the F-16.

Bishwa · Post by **Bishwa** » 02 Mar 2019 08:43

https://twitter.com/tukupanti/status/11 ... 7914770434

This is a good analysis of one of the debris which fell in POK which indicates it is a F16 purchased from Jordan

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 02 Mar 2019 08:59

Here is another source in '14 when planes got transferred from Jordan. With the addition of these new airframes (12 A models and one B model aircraft) the PAF will reach 76 F-16s in service.

The serial no. of that twin seater was : F-16B #84608

( http://www.f-16.net/f-16-news-article4835.html, fighters F16A/B with serial numbers in the picture over cholistan desert)

============================================

http://www.f-16.net/f-16-news-article4835.html

The batch of Ex Royal Jordanian F-16 ADF's were flown by Pakistani pilots, directly from Jordan. With the addition of these new airframes the PAF will reach 76 F-16s in service. Lockheed Martin and the US government gave its blessing for the sale/purchase of the jets with contracts being signed back in 2013.

The newly arrived aircraft will be operated by 19 Squadron ‘Sherdils’, which was also officially re-formed at Mushaf as an F-16 unit. The Squadron had previously been an F-7P/FT-7P Operational Conversion Unit at PAF Base M M Alam, the former PAF Base Miamwali, which was renamed on March 20, 2014.

==============================================
And later on they were upgraded confirmed by below link that Turkish industries performed the MLU to enable extra features :

In another deal, TAI upgraded a batch of 41 F-16 fighter jets for the Pakistani Air Force. That program involved avionics and structural modernization of the aircraft.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/mide ... -contract/

-=================================

Kits were provided by massa , here are all the details of that upgrade package for the twin seater

It included F100-PW-220E Engines (Pratt & Whitney engine), JHMCS, Radar upgrade to APG-68v9, ALQ-213 EW System, ALQ-113 EW Jamming

look under item # 3 upgrade

https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/51 ... 16s-02396/

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Mar 2019 09:04

Krishna, F-16B Serial # 84608 belongs to No 9 Griffins Squadron, PAF. The first two numbers (84) in the serial number indicates the delivery to the PAF was in 1984.

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 02 Mar 2019 09:12

Rakesh wrote:Krishna, F-16B Serial # 84608 belongs to No 9 Griffins Squadron, PAF. The first two numbers (84) in the serial number indicates the delivery to the PAF was in 1984.

Rakesh, please see my updated link on the new info. You are correct that 84 means delivered in 1984 however not sure I can prove that currently it is with number 9 squadron and not No 19

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 02 Mar 2019 09:13

Cleaning up this thread of rants and opinions not relevant to this thread, please restrict posts to analysis of the aircrafts/details, other data items, combat tactics

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Mar 2019 09:16

Krishna, guess how I came to know that 84608 belongs to No 9 Griffins Squadron?

Go to this the link (from your own post) ----> http://www.f-16.net/g3/f-16-photos/album39/album18/aam

See the tail of 84608? You will see the squadron insignia of the Griffins on the tail and the name Griffins written on top of the insignia. However the name Griffins is worn out.

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 02 Mar 2019 09:17

Rakesh wrote:Krishna, guess how I came to know that 84608 belongs to No 9 Griffins Squadron?

I saw that sir , however I am not sure that it is still with no.9 and not no. 19. Btw did you see the upgrade items looks very much big upgrade with superior capabilities to mig. One more silver lining I see in this is that we will never see any F16 (or 18 or 21) ever in service with IAF.

Added later guess what guys :I believe (educated guess) this is the picture of the exact plane that was blown out of the air, see who is doing the clicky on front seat (good ol sharif) :

https://tribune.com.pk/story/711498/flo ... -of-f-16s/

Army chief Gen Raheel Sharif inspects a newly arrived F-16 alongside Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Mar 2019 09:38

krishna_krishna wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Krishna, guess how I came to know that 84608 belongs to No 9 Griffins Squadron?
I saw that sir , however I am not sure that it is still with no.9 and not no. 19. Btw did you see the upgrade items looks very much big upgrade with superior capabilities to mig. The silver lining I see in this is that we will never see any F16 (or 18 or 21) ever in service with IAF

Krishna, No 19 Squadron consists of ex-Jordanian Air Force F-16s. The PAF does not have surplus F-16s just lying around and neither will they pull aircraft from the other three squadrons. No 19 Squadron will likely only operate aircraft that were once used by the Royal Jordanian Air Force.

I am not sure about eliminating the F-18 from the competition. But this end user agreement business that the US has with Pakistan should be an eye opener for India. Stay away from both birds!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Mar 2019 09:42

krishna_krishna wrote:Added later guess what guys :I believe (educated guess) this is the picture of the exact plane that was blown out of the air, see who is doing the clicky on front seat (good ol sharif)

Interesting. How did you come to that conclusion?

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 02 Mar 2019 09:44

Aerodynamics gurus assuming that the account of events in the previous page is somewhat accurate, did both aircrafts play to their strengths or was there something else that could have been done given their ITR/STR, L/D, speed bleeding, climb rate characteristics ? specifically like the maneuver tried below by Abhi Sir

10:08 AM – After shooting him down he performed a highly dangerous maneuver called “High-g barrel roll”. He had to do this because he had been in the vicinity of PAK surface to air artillery and SAM. While doing so he has to vertically climb at high speed and reverse its direction towards India. While doing so his old outdated Mig 21 bison’s engine thrust had a problem and he became almost non-maneuverable for few secs. And during that time either a SAM or air artillery hit his plane. So people should understand what has happened. Not upgrading or replacing the ageing jets and just upgrading radar and avionics doesn’t give you the edge. It requires a huge piloting skills, ability and courage to drown a F16 with a Mig21. So salute to Abhinandan!

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 02 Mar 2019 09:54

Rakesh wrote:Interesting. How did you come to that conclusion?

Per the earlier link I posted on F-16 transfer from Jordan there were 13 planes in total (12 A and one B model) . From the other link I posted from "Re-Equipment Ceremony of No.19 Multi Role Squadron" which has army chief of that time on the front seat is the two seater (the only two seater to be inducted). Now if this squadron is made up of totally ex-jordanian planes like you say than that is our bird.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Mar 2019 10:02

F-16.net lists four F-16Bs and nine F-16As of the Royal Jordanian Air Force were delivered.

See here ---> http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article14.html

When deliveries started in May of 2014 is was obvious that the order compromised the Jordanian airframes of the Peace Falcon I order. Three of those crashed over the years with 13 of them remaining. Although only one B-models was announced with the first delivery already 2 were on the tarmac and the other 2 followed soon. So now it is obvious that the order compromised 9 A-models and 4 B-models in the ADF version. These airframes haven't been upgraded to MLU standard. With Pakistan upgrading all its older A/B models to the MLU standard it would seem obvious that these air frames will also be upgraded accordingly. The future will tell us whether this will come to fruition.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Mar 2019 10:09

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article14.html

^^^ Also from the above link, there are two serial numbers of the F-16Bs of the Royal Jordanian Air Force that now serve with the Pakistan Air Force. If the F-16B that was shot down by Wing Commander Varthaman was from No 19 Sherdills Sqn, it will be one of these four aircraft. If the PAF pulls out all four aircraft listed below and parades them for the media, then we know the F-16B was not from No 19 Squadron. Then the PAF will have to do some innovative repainting on one of their other F-16Bs

a) #14624

b) #14625 (picture below)

c) #14626 (not listed in F-16.net, but following a logical sequence of numbers)

d) #14627

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 02 Mar 2019 10:29

rgosain wrote:Taiwan AF have rebutted PAF's claim about the origin of the AIM-120 missile. Retweet and circulate
https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3648621

Express Tribune censored my refutation; but it is on one of my blogs.
https://observingliberalpakistan.blogsp ... anese.html

The short story is that Raytheon seems to have had a multi-year contract FA8675-05-C-0070, under which they supplied "Guided Missiles" to Pakistan in 2007 and AMRAAMs to Taiwan in 2009.
Image of page from US "DoD FY 2006 & 2007 Sales of Significant Military Equipment to Foreign Entities" (link to document on my blog); highlights added.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Mar 2019 10:43

Bishwa wrote:https://twitter.com/tukupanti/status/11 ... 7914770434

This is a good analysis of one of the debris which fell in POK which indicates it is a F16 purchased from Jordan

Those serial numbers were added later and the debris are of Mig-21

Till Date , We dont have any evidence in terms of debris of F-16 Crash.

Most of the evidence is based on

1 ) IAF radar electronic signature of PAF Package and the engagement of Bison with F-16.
2 ) Bison Wing Man safely returned home even though he was fired at by AMRAAM , So there is an eye witness account of this engagement. ( horses mouth )
3 ) Couple of videos from POK with irrefutable evidence stating 2-3 Pilots parachutes have been seen.
4 ) Botched up attempt by ISPR to claim PAF shot 2 IAF warplanes and 1 pilot caught , 1 is injured and in hospital not realising that the injured pilot was a PAF pilot but indirectly it confirmed that 2 pilots were caught.
5 ) Now that Winco is back he will be debrefied and we will get another eye account other than his wingman

Quite possible F-16 debris fell far away because it was flying much higher than the Bison and these debirs must have fallen at place where very few or no civilian exist and lack of internet access etc by then NLI would have realised it is PAF plane by its marking and would not allow any picture by civilians

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 02 Mar 2019 10:46

soon we will know from the Wignco..why all this fuss.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Mar 2019 10:47

This is a better picture of the encounter via IAF sources published by HT , will highlight key point

‘Over in 90 seconds’: Officers detail India, Pakistan air duel along border

The dogfight between Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman, flying a Russian made MiG-21 and a Pakistan Air Force US made F-16 over the skies of the Nowshera in Rajouri District of Jammu Province on Wednesday lasted just 90 seconds, a senior Indian Air Force (IAF) officer said on condition of anonymity.

Only F -16 aircraft can fire AMRAAM missiles. These have been used in violation of conditions imposed on Pakistan by the United States when these were sold,” a second senior IAF official who did not want to named said

On Wednesday, the incoming pack of 12 Pakistani fighters, comprising US-made F-16, French-made Mirages and JF-17 fighters made in Pakistan were detected by an Airborne Warning and Control System (AWAC) hovering inside India. Pakistan was responding to air strikes on a Jaish-e-Mohammed terror camp in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa.

Immediately, fighters from Avantipora, Srinagar and other airfields were scrambled. The MiG-21 being the closest, approached the PAF fighters, a senior official in the security establishment who did not want to be named said. From a distance, the entire dogfight was picked up the AWAC and also other Indian fighters.

The MiG-21 locked on to the F-16 when it was flying at about 15000ft and the F-16 at about 9000 ft. The MiG-21 started diving to get a better shot at the F-16. The F-16 took evasive measures. It went into a steep climb,” a second senior official in the security establishment said and added that “the F-16 climbed to about 26000 ft.”

By this time the MiG-21’s pilot had skillfully manoeuvred his aircraft behind the PAF fighter, positioning itself at a sixty-degree angle for maximum impact. It fired a Russian made Vympel R-73 (NATO name AA-11 Archer) missile hitting the F-16. Even as R-73 missile was closing into its target, the wingman of the F-16 now in the crosshairs moved in. He fired his weapon and hit the MiG-21. “No radio call from the MiG -21 was received,” the official said.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Mar 2019 10:53

What is quite clear is

IAF scrambled many types from different airfield but Bison was the closest to the F-16 hence he engaged them.

Bison first locked the F-16 flying lower at 9K ft while Bison was at 15K ft , to get better shot he dived at the F-16 , F-16 realised this and accelerated to again height around 26K feet a difference of 17K feet at short time.

Bison was behind F-16 and fired the R-73 while the wing man of F-16 fired the AMRAAM at Bison.

As this was a close engagement WVR in a good weather both Fighters F-16 and Bison was within the NEZ of R-73 and AMRAAM , Which means no amount of manouvering would have saved them. Short of electronically using means to defeat the missile.

Bison carries the Israel Jammer in external pylons it does not have internal jammer , we dont know on this occasion he carried a IAI Jammer or was it carrying A2A missile.

F-16 Flares could not beat the R-73 either.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 02 Mar 2019 10:55

Wish we have Gun camera image from Both wingman's. I hope Pakis release the video of the F-16 shooting down Mig 21.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 02 Mar 2019 10:59

US-Pakistan F-16 Deal Is Dead: Islamabad Mulling Jordan F-16 Fighter Jets Instead

https://thediplomat.com/2016/06/us-paki ... s-instead/

See this thread : https://twitter.com/tukupanti/status/11 ... 1864274946

Look for other pointer
http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/F-16

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 02 Mar 2019 11:00

Now add this engagement with the filter of the IAF stating that the PLAAF's newest toys pinged loud and clear on our ISR assets.

Given all this can you imagine all the noise and flurry within the PLAAF - They will have to go back to the drawing board as they have now been exposed to a Real World Case study of IAF Tactics and Training Capability -

And the Bison has achieved a real world vindication of the what we all learned from CopeIndia2004.

Jayram · Post by **Jayram** » 02 Mar 2019 11:08

rkhanna wrote:Now add this engagement with the filter of the IAF stating that the PLAAF's newest toys pinged loud and clear on our ISR assets.

Given all this can you imagine all the noise and flurry within the PLAAF - They will have to go back to the drawing board as they have now been exposed to a Real World Case study of IAF Tactics and Training Capability -

And the Bison has achieved a real world vindication of the what we all learned from CopeIndia2004.

And it also validated the training/exercise tactics employed by IAF TACDE against the US in CopeIndia. Kudos to the thought leaders there for orchestrating a seminal event that the entire 1 Billion country men will forever enshrine.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Mar 2019 11:35

https://twitter.com/anshumig/status/1101507675286691841

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 02 Mar 2019 11:40

While the bison undoubtedly got the job done is there any reason that the Tejas cannot be moved north on a temporary detachment to fly cap? Shukla was reporting something about more work being required on derby envelope and windmill restart last week. Will this place restrictions on the ability to see action?

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 02 Mar 2019 11:47

Bharadwaj wrote:While the bison undoubtedly got the job done is there any reason that the Tejas cannot be moved north on a temporary detachment to fly cap? Shukla was reporting something about more work being required on derby envelope and windmill restart last week. Will this place restrictions on the ability to see action?

The Tejas will still take some time to be deployed on the Front lines. Takes time to develop fully integrated Tactics/Doctrine etc . So right now they would be in reserve as a backup. Eventually they will graduate to Tip of the Spear

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Mar 2019 11:49

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Mar 2019 12:37

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 5486839808

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 02 Mar 2019 12:54

Kashi wrote:You don't expect those Western "experts" to admit that the pride of their air forces was shot down by a "Russian junk" being flown by an SDRE would you?

I went through the US news sources - they are not reporting the F16 shoot down. Its tough love. But part of it is how we handled the news cycle. But no western media has written about it. Perhaps after the evidence of 120C they should.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 02 Mar 2019 13:54

1) Mig 21 is v dangerous in a merge...WVR combat... and the super duper Isreali jammer helps it to merge with the opponent ... once its in WVR all bets are off... 2) what are tactics against a AIM 120C shot? 3) the Paki gas and electricity network lies v close to the border... if we can damage it well enough the recovery after hostilities will be v hard.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Mar 2019 14:14

it is better the P5 not show any interest in what is localized anti-terror activity by the indian govt.
they can continue to report pakistani victories daily.
they have bigger issues each of them.

this process of disciplining the rogue state with localized non-military activity will go on for a year or two.

it not going to end tomorrow.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Mar 2019 14:41

Most western media BBC or CNN etc look at any anti-terrorism strike from Nuclear Angle , All they say is the need to restrain both to get things out of control , I have yet to see any Western media Press Pakistan on terrorism like they do for Iran or Noko although Paki are worst than both .....Their eloquent speaking FM admits Azhar is there but he is seriously ill and any evidence to prosecute him depends on how Pakistani "Independent Court" judges the evidence presented by India .......That is all it is to India-Pakistan conflict for them.

I dont reallly understand what is there to put Azhar on UN ban list , There are luminaries from Pakistan who is in such list and all they do is go underground change organisation name and life goes on as usual. UN is a toothless organisation and their ban means Zilch other than talking point for Indian Estb. These people dont fly to UK or EU or US for shopping for Interpol to catch them .....At best they quietly travel to Saudi with authorities assistance for Haj without their passport getting stamped like Dawood and his clan does often.

They need to hunt them down Azhar , Dawood , Hafiz , Zaki ur Rehman Lakhvi. David Hedley etc the list is long including the ISI/PA people who provided intelligence training and logistics help

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 02 Mar 2019 14:57

Do the Bisons carry any BVR anymore, since the R-77s have reportedly turned out to be duds and MKI now are seen only with R-27s?