2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

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shravanp
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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby shravanp » 04 Jun 2019 21:56

chetak wrote:so what.

If true, it was a strategy that surely worked.

The current leadership of the BJP certainly has the chutzpah as well as the testimonials to implement just such a move and still come out on top.



Chetakji, remember ShivrajSinghChauhan (when BJP lost three states) had quoted "Kabhi kabhi badi chalaang maarne ke pehle do kadam piche hatna padta hai". (Sometimes, in order to make a big jump, you need to take few steps back)

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Raghunathgb » 04 Jun 2019 22:02

pankajs wrote:
Sachin wrote:I was thinking I would never have to say this explicitly. The 3 South CMs (and the states) have enough and more problems and a nudge and push here and there will make them busy fighting each other. TN has problems over water from both KA and KL. KL is a basket case state, which still depends heavily on food & vegetable stuff from KA and TN. All these 100% literacy & we have Gelf money etc. will not fly for long. KA is pretty much self-dependent, and may not be willing to toe the line set up by TN or KL. And KA also has a sizeable BJP/RSS presence. A few Cauvery Water Board directives is all that is required for the 3 South CMs to be at each other's throat :lol:.

Absolutely!

There are so many pressure points that it is laughable.


Actually Karnataka disassociates anything related to tamilnadu. There are no two states in India which fight like KA and TN. I doubt KA people would entertain Dravidian jokers thought.

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 04 Jun 2019 22:30

KJo wrote:An ultra RW pro Modi friend of mine (to absurd levels) claims that BJP lost those states on purpose. He claims very chankyan onlee. Now why would anyone lose an election on purpose and how would that help in GE2019?

I am pretty certain BJP 'allowed' delhi 2015 to happen.

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby darshan » 04 Jun 2019 22:49

On the theory of losing 2018 elections: cleaning up the mess is lot harder so one doesn't intentionally create it.
Theory may make sense for MP but not for RJ and CG.
RJ was lost due to incompetence.
When you are going to have handsfull with PJ, KL, WB, TN, J&K, where's the sense in intentionally allowing CG to fall into naxal hands?

Allowing any inch to INC also means allowing destruction of the foundation set up over the years. Destruction is lot faster than cleaning up and reset.

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby ShyamSP » 04 Jun 2019 23:35

disha wrote:
pankajs wrote:I of course do not speak on behalf of the Maharasthrians BUT have hardly heard any noise from them on their discontent with "North India". Moreover, based on the language criteria actively pushed by the "Dravida Nadu" proponents, Marathi sound much closer to Hindi than to any south Indian language at least to my "North Indian" ears.


I can understand spoken Marathi and Tamizh to a certain degree (intermediate level?)., When I hear Marathi, I end up responding in Hindi (which I know very well) and when I hear Tamizh, I end up responding in Telugu! (which I know at a v. good level).

My theory is that if you learn four (4) Indian languages very well, your brain starts processing language at a meta-level. It just becomes some sort of super-fluid where you are able to pull any word from vocabulary and it starts making perfect sense.


If you know Telugu/Kannada at vyavaharika and Grandhika level, you can pretty much get many languages including good command on Samskrutam. Instead of fighting for native languages and all people end up becoming slave to English, it is better for the governments promoting all native languages and letting people pick it up like they did for many millennia and having Sanskritized language (RSS speaks this language already) at Center or native language at State for administrative purposes. Center should promote native languages and demote English if we have any meaningful future on reducing de-racinated Indians that include right-wingers.

I'm not expert in Marati but old Marathi had many native words but it having interaction to Hindi lands for long time their language turned into more like Hindi and Devanagari lipi adoption added to that process.

Prakrut-Aryavarth/North = Marati
Prakrut-Dravida/South = Telugu/Kannada

(Aryan and Dravidian to mean North and South India not referring to Horse-riders and Harappans)

chetak
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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby chetak » 05 Jun 2019 00:14

disha wrote:
pankajs wrote:I of course do not speak on behalf of the Maharasthrians BUT have hardly heard any noise from them on their discontent with "North India". Moreover, based on the language criteria actively pushed by the "Dravida Nadu" proponents, Marathi sound much closer to Hindi than to any south Indian language at least to my "North Indian" ears.


I can understand spoken Marathi and Tamizh to a certain degree (intermediate level?)., When I hear Marathi, I end up responding in Hindi (which I know very well) and when I hear Tamizh, I end up responding in Telugu! (which I know at a v. good level).

My theory is that if you learn four (4) Indian languages very well, your brain starts processing language at a meta-level. It just becomes some sort of super-fluid where you are able to pull any word from vocabulary and it starts making perfect sense.


even little kids brought up in a multilingual household do much better in school and later, in life.

Babies and toddlers are better equipped to learn more than one language at once, or to pick up a second, third, or even fourth language, than they ever will be again in their lives, but unless they live in a culture that’s generally multilingual, it takes some special parental effort to make sure that each language continues to develop strongly as she grows.

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby arshyam » 05 Jun 2019 00:19

So which of the "3 south CMs" are supposed to be colluding? Before vigorously disassociating from anything, I hope people realize that Stalin is NOT the TN CM :lol:

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Suraj » 05 Jun 2019 00:36

Another post poll analysis proving how rural gains drove 2019:
Where did the BJP get its votes from in 2019?
Summary: the biggest gains in voteshare came from the poorest group of people. However, the group with the largest BJP voteshare remains the upper middle class.
Image

Suraj
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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Suraj » 05 Jun 2019 00:40

Lokniti post poll analysis continued - polling differences by religion:
Image
Image
More here

Karan M
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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Karan M » 05 Jun 2019 00:44

Hate to say this but with this behavior, the Muslim community is literally losing their influence with the BJP, and completely showing their disassociation with the Hindu community.

In effect they are disenfranchising themselves and making themselves irrelevant to the national aim.

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby SBajwa » 05 Jun 2019 01:22

Karan M wrote:Hate to say this but with this behavior, the Muslim community is literally losing their influence with the BJP, and completely showing their disassociation with the Hindu community.

In effect they are disenfranchising themselves and making themselves irrelevant to the national aim.


I think that is expected!! Shias, Ahmadis and certain Barelvis could join BJP but rest should be left alone

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby V_Raman » 05 Jun 2019 01:24

It will change after this election. They now know clearly that there is no going back. They are reaping the benefits of JAM as well. All of us had our doubts about the ability of Hindus to rise above their casteist divides. This election put those apprehensions aside. They will rise from the religious divide as well.

The problem is with the opposition. They have no alternative story and will keep peddling the same old s*** even for the next 10 years. But we will see what happens in subsequent assembly elections. That will be an indicator.

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Suraj » 05 Jun 2019 01:39

Karan M wrote:Hate to say this but with this behavior, the Muslim community is literally losing their influence with the BJP, and completely showing their disassociation with the Hindu community.

In effect they are disenfranchising themselves and making themselves irrelevant to the national aim.

Well, seen another way, this election saw the end of both the 'Muslim veto' and the 'Muslim-caste bloc veto' power - SP depending on M-Y and BSP depended on M-D blocs. Even younger gen Yadav's don't vote SaPa like their dads do. Similarly, there's an enormous gain in Dalit votes for BJP, who won over 50% of the reserved LS seats .

Internalizing the understanding that they cannot tactically vote to defeat BJP, and having that lesson repeatedly demonstrated, is the first step in getting over the politics of antagonism. The survey also shows that Hindus who dislike BJP are about the same number as Hindus who dislike Congress, whereas the number for Muslims is FAR out of sync, with ~80% in the BJP dislike set. Their choice to dislike one party is their own - they will pay the price for that because others - even Dalits - will progress at their cost . It is a matter of time before even the average Dalit is noticeably better off than the average Muslim in UP/BH. At that point, they'll have realized the costs of their own political choices.

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Rudradev » 05 Jun 2019 02:14

What does Modi offer every Indian?

Dignity of day-to-day living. Economic stability. Social stability. Security.

And most importantly of all... the best chance they've ever had of real upward mobility for current and future generations, acquired through education and economic opportunity. The kinds of things people can focus on when they receive access to savings and infrastructure; when their fundamental (vital, though short-term) needs are met.

Of course, Modi offers these things to all Indians regardless of caste or religion. However, it stands to reason that (as 75+% of the population) Hindus will be the most ubiquitous, most visible beneficiaries of these changes across the country.

Abrahamic religious institutions within India... the Ulema and the Church alike... premise both their appeal and their authority on the narrative of monotheistic exceptionalism. To preserve and expand their flocks, they have to create and sustain a perpetual impression of being representatives of a superior civilization within a savage heathen mass. Their entire message relies on this brand promise: we are the sole civilizing influence that could ever bring jahil kafirs or pagans to a higher station of existence, both spiritually and in the temporal world.

This message is relatively easy to sustain when the majority of kafirs/pagans are wretchedly poor, malnourished, unhealthy, uneducated, unemployable, and defecate in public. The existence of a wealthy elite amongst the kafirs/pagans only reinforces the message that oppression and inequality are widespread among the jahil savages, and social justice can only emerge with the egalitarian reign of (whichever) one god.

It will be interesting to watch what happens when this message is exposed as fraudulent, in the eyes of monotheistic believers, through the very evidence of their senses. When they see that ALL Hindus are advancing by leaps and bounds in socioeconomic terms, while still merrily carrying on with their kafir butt-parasti, temple visits, pilgrimages, and festivals. The effect of this will be to increasingly, and obviously, falsify the claim that belief in any monotheistic religion is a precondition to reap the benefits of civilization.

The Maslow hierarchy of needs is arguably universal. What needs to be done is to associate ascendance through that hierarchy, inextricably, with increasing adherence to the native civilizational values of India. In other words... each step of the ladder from basic sustenance through broader economic aspiration to social respect must be associated with becoming more and more and more Hindu. This is not something Modi or the BJP can do openly or explicitly... but the RSS might.

Ghar-wapsi can only become widespread and lasting if the return is to a cleaner, better, safer, more prosperous home than any secular-left administration, Mullah, or Padre were ever capable of providing. Modi's ability to provide such a home is precisely why the secular left and the monotheistic institutions hate him as much as they do.

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Suraj » 05 Jun 2019 02:30

Rudradev - great post. I tangentially mentioned the same in the post right before yours where I referring to the psychological effect to Muslims of seeing even Dalits far better off than them, but you're much better at describing it.

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby ramana » 05 Jun 2019 02:35

I am going to close this thread tomorrow and open a new one as 2019 results discussion is coming to an end.


A_Gupta
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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby A_Gupta » 05 Jun 2019 03:39

I hope I live long enough to see enough Abrahamics abandoning their exclusionary beliefs because the infidelators are doing better than their prophets said.

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 05 Jun 2019 03:40

Rudradev wrote:What does Modi offer every Indian?

Dignity of day-to-day living. Economic stability. Social stability. Security.

And most importantly of all... the best chance they've ever had of real upward mobility for current and future generations, acquired through education and economic opportunity. The kinds of things people can focus on when they receive access to savings and infrastructure; when their fundamental (vital, though short-term) needs are met.

Of course, Modi offers these things to all Indians regardless of caste or religion. However, it stands to reason that (as 75+% of the population) Hindus will be the most ubiquitous, most visible beneficiaries of these changes across the country.

Abrahamic religious institutions within India... the Ulema and the Church alike... premise both their appeal and their authority on the narrative of monotheistic exceptionalism. To preserve and expand their flocks, they have to create and sustain a perpetual impression of being representatives of a superior civilization within a savage heathen mass. Their entire message relies on this brand promise: we are the sole civilizing influence that could ever bring jahil kafirs or pagans to a higher station of existence, both spiritually and in the temporal world.

This message is relatively easy to sustain when the majority of kafirs/pagans are wretchedly poor, malnourished, unhealthy, uneducated, unemployable, and defecate in public. The existence of a wealthy elite amongst the kafirs/pagans only reinforces the message that oppression and inequality are widespread among the jahil savages, and social justice can only emerge with the egalitarian reign of (whichever) one god.

It will be interesting to watch what happens when this message is exposed as fraudulent, in the eyes of monotheistic believers, through the very evidence of their senses. When they see that ALL Hindus are advancing by leaps and bounds in socioeconomic terms, while still merrily carrying on with their kafir butt-parasti, temple visits, pilgrimages, and festivals. The effect of this will be to increasingly, and obviously, falsify the claim that belief in any monotheistic religion is a precondition to reap the benefits of civilization.

The Maslow hierarchy of needs is arguably universal. What needs to be done is to associate ascendance through that hierarchy, inextricably, with increasing adherence to the native civilizational values of India. In other words... each step of the ladder from basic sustenance through broader economic aspiration to social respect must be associated with becoming more and more and more Hindu. This is not something Modi or the BJP can do openly or explicitly... but the RSS might.

Ghar-wapsi can only become widespread and lasting if the return is to a cleaner, better, safer, more prosperous home than any secular-left administration, Mullah, or Padre were ever capable of providing. Modi's ability to provide such a home is precisely why the secular left and the monotheistic institutions hate him as much as they do.




You mean...GDP is the best revenge, we shall see. I am looking for signs of a diminishing of the fawning over white skin, this may be easier for India than China or Japan because there exist in India lighter coloured people with 'regular' physiognomy. So far I have seen only a little evidence but I have not travelled in India extensively recently. This fawning to me is an excellent proxy of a society's status of decolonisation and economic growth.

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby KLNMurthy » 05 Jun 2019 03:55

Rudradev wrote:What does Modi offer every Indian?

Dignity of day-to-day living. Economic stability. Social stability. Security.

And most importantly of all... the best chance they've ever had of real upward mobility for current and future generations, acquired through education and economic opportunity. The kinds of things people can focus on when they receive access to savings and infrastructure; when their fundamental (vital, though short-term) needs are met.

Of course, Modi offers these things to all Indians regardless of caste or religion. However, it stands to reason that (as 75+% of the population) Hindus will be the most ubiquitous, most visible beneficiaries of these changes across the country.

Abrahamic religious institutions within India... the Ulema and the Church alike... premise both their appeal and their authority on the narrative of monotheistic exceptionalism. To preserve and expand their flocks, they have to create and sustain a perpetual impression of being representatives of a superior civilization within a savage heathen mass. Their entire message relies on this brand promise: we are the sole civilizing influence that could ever bring jahil kafirs or pagans to a higher station of existence, both spiritually and in the temporal world.

This message is relatively easy to sustain when the majority of kafirs/pagans are wretchedly poor, malnourished, unhealthy, uneducated, unemployable, and defecate in public. The existence of a wealthy elite amongst the kafirs/pagans only reinforces the message that oppression and inequality are widespread among the jahil savages, and social justice can only emerge with the egalitarian reign of (whichever) one god.

It will be interesting to watch what happens when this message is exposed as fraudulent, in the eyes of monotheistic believers, through the very evidence of their senses. When they see that ALL Hindus are advancing by leaps and bounds in socioeconomic terms, while still merrily carrying on with their kafir butt-parasti, temple visits, pilgrimages, and festivals. The effect of this will be to increasingly, and obviously, falsify the claim that belief in any monotheistic religion is a precondition to reap the benefits of civilization.

The Maslow hierarchy of needs is arguably universal. What needs to be done is to associate ascendance through that hierarchy, inextricably, with increasing adherence to the native civilizational values of India. In other words... each step of the ladder from basic sustenance through broader economic aspiration to social respect must be associated with becoming more and more and more Hindu. This is not something Modi or the BJP can do openly or explicitly... but the RSS might.

Ghar-wapsi can only become widespread and lasting if the return is to a cleaner, better, safer, more prosperous home than any secular-left administration, Mullah, or Padre were ever capable of providing. Modi's ability to provide such a home is precisely why the secular left and the monotheistic institutions hate him as much as they do.

Right now, the pseudo-secular ecosystem is coming out with the propaganda that "Hindus voted rationally == Democracy has failed / is a sham", quite openly, see e.g., articles by Arundhati Roy et al. Absurd though it is, this propaganda has powerful legs, and is pushed very hard by the TFTA West.

Muslims of India have been, nominally at least, happy with Constitution and Democracy up to this point, except in Kashmir. Globally, however, numerous Islamic forces--ISIS, Muslim Brotherhood, Pakistan, Turkey etc. all propagate the idea that Democracy is only meaningful if Muslims are in charge. In India, due to Hindu majority, the Muslims have hitherto settled for a compromise--they don't have to be in charge nominally, as long as they get a veto. Now, that veto has been taken away, at least in significant measure. (I doubt that Modi-raj will go for true equality any time soon).

These are the conditions under which we are expecting Muslims to make the correct choice--live in equality with their Hindu brethren, rather than rebel against the Constitution and Democracy, which they are being told by all the TFTAs of India and the world, quite emphatically, has failed them. We want them to choose to be Kalam, and not Owaisis (like Muslim Brotherhood) or Arundhati (like ISIS). There is no overt dialogue from the Hindu side, spelling out their choices, and the route we wish them to take, only "sabka saath, sabka vikas" seen in practice.

Should we leave the Muslims alone trusting them to make a sensible decision without any input from us, "us" being the Hindu-democratic-egalitarian Kalamists (HDEK) if I can coin a factional name?

If we decide to offer our input, what would be the most persuasive thing that we would say to our Muslim brethren to encourage them to let go of their resentment at losing the veto, and to move forward along with us?

How much time do we have for the decision process, which is bound to be contentious and bitter before it gets better?

What happens if Muslims decide that they would rather fight for the restoration of the veto, because maybe they can't imagine a dignified and respectable life (in their own eyes) without it? What would be the impact, and what can be done about it?

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby KLNMurthy » 05 Jun 2019 04:05

A_Gupta wrote:I hope I live long enough to see enough Abrahamics abandoning their exclusionary beliefs because the infidelators are doing better than their prophets said.

Inshallah.

Suraj
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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Suraj » 05 Jun 2019 04:15

KLNMurthy wrote:If we decide to offer our input, what would be the most persuasive thing that we would say to our Muslim brethren to encourage them to let go of their resentment at losing the veto, and to move forward along with us?

Thinking about what you wrote makes me ask:

Why consider them as one entity ? Why address them as one entity ?

They may claim cohesion, but it's not necessary to grant them that. The 3T legislative efforts after all, implicitly separates them by gender. Within them, there are progressive and entrepreneural types who are perfectly happy to reap the benefits their countrymen are, not blinded by their dislike. Divide and rule, or rather, divide and absorb, can be a positive approach, not necessarily a negative one as the British patronized.

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby ramana » 05 Jun 2019 04:35

Opening a new thread as promised.

ramana


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