Chandrayan-2 Mission

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Amber G.
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Re: Chandrayan-2 Mission

Postby Amber G. » 02 Aug 2020 08:45

1 Year update:

Gerard wrote:Vikram Lander Found


Update from Shanmuga Subramanian (The person in above news) on twitter: Chandrayaan2's Pragyan "ROVER" intact on Moon's surface & has rolled out few metres from the skeleton Vikram lander whose payloads got disintegrated due to rough landing .. More details in tweets <click>

1.Debris I found was of Langumir probe from the Vikram lander
2. Debris NASA found might be from other payloads, antenna, retro braking engines, solar panels on side etc.,
3. Rover has rolled out from lander & has actually travelled few metres from the surface
South Pole region is not always well lit and the lander was in a shallow depth of 2 ms from the surface so it was not visible in Nov 11th's NASA flyby due to different angle of incidence & would be difficult for anyone to find it unless the sun is directly above the surface
Since sun is never directly above moon's surface in that region, it would have been so difficult, the above image was taken on Jan4th, 2020 | The 1st image I tweeted is enlarged version of the below image


The person has communicated to ISRO - Have not seen official response.

Here are a few pictures from above:
Image
Image
Image

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Meanwhile, In March of this year, there was supposed to be major publication/ data release for CY-2 but got delayed by Covid. Apart from obvious disappointment of Pragyan, it seems that all other aspects of CY2 are providing awesome data and people are happy

They (ISRO) say that major release of data / report etc will be done in October this year.
Last edited by Amber G. on 02 Aug 2020 09:56, edited 2 times in total.

Mort Walker
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Re: Chandrayan-2 Mission

Postby Mort Walker » 02 Aug 2020 08:55

This is all very frustrating. The Chandrayaan-2 Orbiter has a high resolution camera and 3D mapping capability far better than NASA's LRO. Yet, we are still waiting to see high resolution images taken by Chandrayaan-2. There have been a few images, but nothing in detail. So what is going on here? You have internet sleuths pouring over NASA LRO images in the public domain and yet ISRO can't tell the world that Pragyan is intact?

chetonzz
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Re: Chandrayan-2 Mission

Postby chetonzz » 02 Aug 2020 13:48

=== deleted needless whine ===

Amber G.
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Re: Chandrayan-2 Mission

Postby Amber G. » 02 Aug 2020 22:37

सुखदु:खे समे कृत्वा लाभालाभौ जयाजयौ,
ततो युद्धाय युज्यस्व नैवं पापमवाप्स्यसि.

(Please use google translate or such other technique if your Sanskrit in rusty ..This is from Gita, basically it means , success/setback profit/loss or even happiness/sadness in cause of your duty are not that important)

the way ISRO has handled the landing failure is disgusting...all journalist in India who cry horse about freedom of expression, liberty, right to information, right to XXX and what not seems not even 0.001 % interested in this famous organisation behaving like USSR


I find this narrative of “failure”, “disgusting” associated with Chandrayaan and ISRO, quite strange, if not absurd.
And for those "journalists" who are claiming to "cry for freedom of expression" may like to educated themself, just a little bit in common knowledge in science, so that they do not sound so clueless. They sound like busy-bodies who call a gold medalist a "complete failure" just because she did not get 100% in the exam - just 99%.
****
I do not work for ISRO, but as a scientist I am so impressed with work they have done that 2 years ago, in a panel discussion , for my alma mater ( IITK) graduates, looking for job/career opportunities, I recommended ISRO as one of the good/exciting place to work for. They have done and are doing world-class work in so *many* engineering fields.

ISRO (or for any technical institute for that matter) science is ((or ought to be) a serious business, not some silly game to satisfy/humor silly ignorant ddm or people who do not even have a basic gasp of what it is all about.

Besides:
मुश्किलें कहते जिन्हे हम, राह की आशीष है वो.
और ठोकर नाम है, बेहोश पग का होश आना.

Rough translation:
Those things which we call difficulties, Are blessings along our way.
And stumbling is merely, The reviving of an unconscious foot.

Seriously : By most measures, Chandayaan 2 was quite impressive and successful. True, the landing was a failure - but that was what most knew (see my earlier messages in this thread - analysis *before* it all happened - I described how critical the landing part would be and I (and virtually all other scientists) were predicting the success rate of this part as very low. Please do read that.
------

Amber G.
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Re: Chandrayan-2 Mission

Postby Amber G. » 02 Aug 2020 23:00

Duplicate post deleted by author..
Last edited by Amber G. on 02 Aug 2020 23:43, edited 1 time in total.

disha
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Re: Chandrayan-2 Mission

Postby disha » 02 Aug 2020 23:13

chetonzz wrote:the way ISRO has handled the landing failure is disgusting...all journalist in India who cry horse about freedom of expression, liberty, right to information, right to XXX and what not seems not even 0.001 % interested in this famous organisation behaving like USSR


^Reported above tweet. Also putting you on my ignore list.

Amber G.
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Re: Chandrayan-2 Mission

Postby Amber G. » 03 Aug 2020 00:12

Mort Walker wrote:This is all very frustrating. The Chandrayaan-2 Orbiter has a high resolution camera and 3D mapping capability far better than NASA's LRO. Yet, we are still waiting to see high resolution images taken by Chandrayaan-2. There have been a few images, but nothing in detail. So what is going on here? You have internet sleuths pouring over NASA LRO images in the public domain and yet ISRO can't tell the world that Pragyan is intact?


Mort - Frustration is understandable but it may really help to understand - quantitatively - what "high resolution" means.
As I posted long ago:
1 - This was by a joint effort - NASA's LRO/LROC's images are in public domain and thousands of people use it -- many were looking for Vikram. There were *many* reports/joint-efforts - people finding something "intersting" and other better experts looking it, verifying and confirming it.. slow process. These images were from October 15 flyby , and as I posted then it was likely to take months to go through all the millions of the images .
2 - It is quite *hard* to "identify" using images - very hard, difference is literally pixels - you can't really resolve it to see anything other than seeing a dot which was not there before.
3 - See <this> to see before/after images. Gives some idea why not everyone was able to see it right away.

CY2's OHRC has much better resolution than NASA's LRO/LROC but it is still of the order of 0.25 meters, and with poor lighting (sun very low, lot of shadows etc) the whole Vikram (Pragyan is even smaller) it still a few pixels.
And all this - the overhead position over the site - comes may be once a month due to the CY2's polar orbit - less opportunities for ideal sun location.

Of course, there are other ways than optically observe but optically I don't think one can tell much about the state of Pragyan/Vikram their damage etc. other than *very* rudimentary analysis. -- One can't really "see" Pragyan or its tracks other than presence of few extra before/after pictures comparisons, and CY2 wasn't there for "before" pictures (except for one pass just before Vikram separated).

ISRO, I am sure, has other (than optical or optics in visual spectrum) data - Radio transmissions (pings of Vikram/Pragyan may have lasted until the final moment, or may be even after the crash - or some other electrical activity - may be batteries exploded :) . Metal in Pragyan/Vikram signature etc. May be LRO (laser retroreflector) survived (if deployed - one can pinpoint Pragyan)

But, when all is said and done, perhaps the *exact* status (its damage etc) of Vikram is not that important, if it is not transmitting data. ISRO has millions of other photographs to study and learn. It would be nice if there is more data in public domain but even NASA (or any other organization in the world) LRO/LROC's data being public is exception rather than rule.
Like any other scientific discovery we have to wait.

(ISRO is there to do science - "satisfying" self-proclaimed journalists is not their job. I have not heard criticism from GOI or serious scientists or citizens about lack of transparency on ISRO's part)

Amber G.
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Re: Chandrayan-2 Mission

Postby Amber G. » 03 Aug 2020 00:24

^^^ The critical part, I don't think aam abduls understand is:

One (NASA/ISRO/Sleuths) can't really see/analyze Pragyan/Vikram in the traditional way as you see a google satellite image. All one "studies" is presence of extra dot / (or lack of dot - may be some rock got blown away) in before/after millions of photos taken at different time. .. Such discoveries may make news but scientifically not so important.
(If ISRO thought this was important, they could easily have put a 'black-box'' type beacon which could survived crash etc)

---
ISRO in a tweet has acknowledged the news which we are talking about - They say their experts are looking at these images.

--
Meanwhile NASA's LRO (Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter) today makes its 50,000th orbit of the Moon!
Per their site:
- Camera - Taken 2.9 million images
- Thermometer - Made 524 billion thermal measurements
- Gathered 12000 TB of data.
(But most people really do not know/care etc... similarly CY2 is doing it's work without too-much fanfare..:) .

chetonzz
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Re: Chandrayan-2 Mission

Postby chetonzz » 03 Aug 2020 09:54

apologies for earlier emotional outburst...i had invested myself a lot in that mission from many years before that
see the video i made below, ecstatic even before they tried to land...

https://youtu.be/A6YGm2CZ9F8

anyway...Om shanti

now i only wait for CH-3 landing to happen hopefully before any new entity (govt/private) gets there


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