HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

[srin]

^^^ The cost of Pilatus is not straightforward. This was the first deal using the insane Lifecycle cost model.

Read the CAG report on different costs (upfront cost, maintenance cost etc): https://www.humanrightsinitiative.org/d ... 3-2019.pdf

Read and weep. The Pilatus deal stinks.

[KSingh]

^^^ The cost of Pilatus is not straightforward. This was the first deal using the insane Lifecycle cost model.

Read the CAG report on different costs (upfront cost, maintenance cost etc): https://www.humanrightsinitiative.org/d ... 3-2019.pdf

Read and weep. The Pilatus deal stinks.

There was always something very shady about that deal and everything around it, no wonder the GoI for once showed some backbone and refused any further dealings with that OEM and refused to entertain the IAF’s demand for 125 more

[Rakesh]

From Air Marshal Anil Chopra (retd), Indian Air Force.

https://twitter.com/Chopsyturvey/status ... x_OAgC52NA ---> Someone tells me that HTT-40 has an overpowered engine, that could have taxing issues and need excessive braking. Hopefully someone is looking at it. While the @IAF_MCC has cleared 70 aircraft initial order, but CCS approval and final funding is still awaited.

[ashishvikas]

From Air Marshal Anil Chopra (retd), Indian Air Force.

https://twitter.com/Chopsyturvey/status ... x_OAgC52NA ---> Someone tells me that HTT-40 has an overpowered engine, that could have taxing issues and need excessive braking. Hopefully someone is looking at it. While the @IAF_MCC has cleared 70 aircraft initial order, but CCS approval and final funding is still awaited.

Deal was already signed.

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 037061.ece

[V_Raman]

If it has an overpowered engine - make like a 4-seater version for the hobby market - like HTT-42

[srin]

I haven't heard of over-powered engine - usually problems are of opposite nature !
If it is a serious problem, can't it be de-rated ?

[MeshaVishwas]

You cannot ask your gynaecologist to treat a fractured hip. Similarly we need to stop imagining that retired IAF officers know everything about the IAF and their opinions are reliable. Mileage varies from person to person.

- El Hakim

[Rakesh]

Deal was already signed.

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 037061.ece

Indeed. So why he is making this statement, on the basis of what someone told him?

[sohamn]

Overpowered engines are never a problem, the problem is always weight / CG / fuel burn, etc. if those are not problems, then this isn't a problem.

If someone complains that braking is a problem during taxiing, this is not coming from a person familiar with aviation or is attached to chandigarh lobby. This is because you can always control the power levels during taxi, if you dont want more speed dont add too much power. If you have torque driven left banking during takeoff then add rudder or vertical trim configured for takeoff to counter that.

[Jay]

From Air Marshal Anil Chopra (retd), Indian Air Force.

https://twitter.com/Chopsyturvey/status ... x_OAgC52NA ---> Someone tells me that HTT-40 has an overpowered engine, that could have taxing issues and need excessive braking. Hopefully someone is looking at it. While the @IAF_MCC has cleared 70 aircraft initial order, but CCS approval and final funding is still awaited.

Former air marshal is really digging for an issue where there is none otherwise. If we want Indian MIC to take the next step, these type of ex-officers need to be kept at a distance.

[ramana]

What is an overpowered engine?

Is he trying to make issues where none exist?

The pilot always can throttle the engine to land it. And excess power is always good for margin.
He is an air marshal and director of CAPS founded by Air Cdre Jasjit Singh.

Instead, he talks like an airhead.

[basant]

From Air Marshal Anil Chopra (retd), Indian Air Force.

https://twitter.com/Chopsyturvey/status ... x_OAgC52NA ---> Someone tells me that HTT-40 has an overpowered engine, that could have taxing issues and need excessive braking. Hopefully someone is looking at it. While the @IAF_MCC has cleared 70 aircraft initial order, but CCS approval and final funding is still awaited.

Prof. Prodyut Das @prody24445539 tweets:

So did the Gnat - generator min. speed required high taxing speed - but the IAF lived with it. First time I hear dissatisfaction for a plane being overpowered. Again the Gnat! This is not a I presume a priority issue though I agree every customer complaint needs to be treated as real.

[ashishvikas]

The Cabinet Committee on Security has cleared the acquisition of 70 Hindustan Turbo Trainer-40 (#HTT40) for the IAF at a cost of around Rs 6,800 crore.

The HTT-40 will be the basic trainer aircraft for first time pilots at the Air Force Academy

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... q0PIA&s=19

[Rakesh]

Page 1 updated. Thank You Ashish Saar.

[rajkumar]

The Cabinet Committee on Security has cleared the acquisition of 70 Hindustan Turbo Trainer-40 (#HTT40) for the IAF at a cost of around Rs 6,800 crore.

The HTT-40 will be the basic trainer aircraft for first time pilots at the Air Force Academy

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... q0PIA&s=19

but what's the delivery timescales. I saw some where that it was 70 aircrafts over 10 years. 7 aircrafts a year would be almost hand building each one forget production line...

[Rakesh]

but what's the delivery timescales. I saw some where that it was 70 aircrafts over 10 years. 7 aircrafts a year would be almost hand building each one forget production line...

~12 per year. See below.

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/163 ... 91648?s=20 ---> BREAKING: Indian Govt approves procurement of 70 indigenous HAL HTT-40 basic trainer aircraft for the Indian Air Force in a deal worth Rs 6,828.36 crore. The aircraft will be supplied over a period of six years.

[A Sharma]

How will HAL's HTT-40 help in pilot training for new IAF inductees?

[Rakesh]

IAF & HTT-40: From Wanting It Dead To Ordering 70
https://www.livefistdefence.com/iaf-htt ... dering-70/
07 March 2023

[Rakesh]

Page 1 updated with the news below. Kudos to the team who made it possible.

A big salute to the late Manohar Parrikar-ji. Thank You!

https://twitter.com/HALHQBLR/status/163 ... 82560?s=20 ---> The Ministry of Defence signed a contract with HAL for procurement of 70 HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft in the presence of Raksha Mantri Shri Rajnath Singh. Defence Secretary Shri Giridhar Aramane along with other senior civil and military officials of MoD and HAL.

[KSingh]

but what's the delivery timescales. I saw some where that it was 70 aircrafts over 10 years. 7 aircrafts a year would be almost hand building each one forget production line...

~12 per year. See below.

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/163 ... 91648?s=20 ---> BREAKING: Indian Govt approves procurement of 70 indigenous HAL HTT-40 basic trainer aircraft for the Indian Air Force in a deal worth Rs 6,828.36 crore. The aircraft will be supplied over a period of six years.

Peak production will be ~20/year as the first 1-3 years will deliver a handful as they scale up. Hopefully the follow on 36 are ordered with plenty of time to keep peak output up

[BenG]

~12 per year. See below.

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/163 ... 91648?s=20 ---> BREAKING: Indian Govt approves procurement of 70 indigenous HAL HTT-40 basic trainer aircraft for the Indian Air Force in a deal worth Rs 6,828.36 crore. The aircraft will be supplied over a period of six years.

Peak production will be ~20/year as the first 1-3 years will deliver a handful as they scale up. Hopefully the follow on 36 are ordered with plenty of time to keep peak output up

Can they replace the PC-7 as well? They were arm twisting us on spare price. On top of that, there was a bribery case recorded too.

[Rakesh]

Trainer aircraft for next top guns
https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/defe ... ce=twshare
07 April 2023

[rrao]

From Air Marshal Anil Chopra (retd), Indian Air Force.

https://twitter.com/Chopsyturvey/status ... x_OAgC52NA ---> Someone tells me that HTT-40 has an overpowered engine, that could have taxing issues and need excessive braking. Hopefully someone is looking at it. While the @IAF_MCC has cleared 70 aircraft initial order, but CCS approval and final funding is still awaited.

Prof. Prodyut Das @prody24445539 tweets:

So did the Gnat - generator min. speed required high taxing speed - but the IAF lived with it. First time I hear dissatisfaction for a plane being overpowered. Again the Gnat! This is not a I presume a priority issue though I agree every customer complaint needs to be treated as real.

This is the problem !!! we import many many things from countries.... what shit they deliver we happily accept with glee!!! I have seen intnl giants using non std soldering practices on platforms and our QA sleeps over it. A few years back.. mig27 uses a taped voice warning system for warning pilots of engine fire, hydraulics power fail etc...The system was based on 2" audio magnetic tape of 11 feet length and runs for few seconds ...its basically an audio tape recorder with multi channel selection and its design dates back to 1960+ . The MRO ppl after exhausting their stocks ,used to go to BRDs and other divisions ,where stocks were available. Since mag tapes suffer from leaching, they had to search for good tape spools. The person who was working on it was minting money by claiming TA DA for every garbage trip he made.. from indigenization we went and studied the unit and understood the functioning to our ability. since childhood i was fascinated by various models of cassette tape recorders, stereo 10" spool tape recorders and used to do window shopping ,because of not enough money to buy and mostly smuggled top japanese brands like sony.technics,JVC from chennai pondy Bazaar or Moore market. since the mig 27 audio warning system was also a tape recorder, we tried to adapt mag tape from stereo spool . i procured 2" master tape . each spool consists of 2500 feet of magnetic recording audio tape. took out 11 feet and wound on the spool provided in audio warning system. it worked wonderfully well and eliminated starvation for audio tapes. After suitable studies of Russian tape and our tape , we made a detailed comparison report and submitted to certifying agencies for approval and airborne certification. QA idiots tried to pour cold water and the performance was blatantly evident before their eyes, they had to agree. finally mig-27 itself was phased out...

[YashG]

since the mig 27 audio warning system was also a tape recorder, we tried to adapt mag tape from stereo spool . i procured 2" master tape . each spool consists of 2500 feet of magnetic recording audio tape. took out 11 feet and wound on the spool provided in audio warning system. it worked wonderfully well and eliminated starvation for audio tapes. After suitable studies of Russian tape and our tape , we made a detailed comparison report and submitted to certifying agencies for approval and airborne certification. QA idiots tried to pour cold water and the performance was blatantly evident before their eyes, they had to agree. finally mig-27 itself was phased out...

thanks, wow

[titash]

Prof. Prodyut Das @prody24445539 tweets:

This is the problem !!! we import many many things from countries.... what shit they deliver we happily accept with glee!!! I have seen intnl giants using non std soldering practices on platforms and our QA sleeps over it. A few years back.. mig27 uses a taped voice warning system for warning pilots of engine fire, hydraulics power fail etc...The system was based on 2" audio magnetic tape of 11 feet length and runs for few seconds ...its basically an audio tape recorder with multi channel selection and its design dates back to 1960+ . The MRO ppl after exhausting their stocks ,used to go to BRDs and other divisions ,where stocks were available. Since mag tapes suffer from leaching, they had to search for good tape spools. The person who was working on it was minting money by claiming TA DA for every garbage trip he made.. from indigenization we went and studied the unit and understood the functioning to our ability. since childhood i was fascinated by various models of cassette tape recorders, stereo 10" spool tape recorders and used to do window shopping ,because of not enough money to buy and mostly smuggled top japanese brands like sony.technics,JVC from chennai pondy Bazaar or Moore market. since the mig 27 audio warning system was also a tape recorder, we tried to adapt mag tape from stereo spool . i procured 2" master tape . each spool consists of 2500 feet of magnetic recording audio tape. took out 11 feet and wound on the spool provided in audio warning system. it worked wonderfully well and eliminated starvation for audio tapes. After suitable studies of Russian tape and our tape , we made a detailed comparison report and submitted to certifying agencies for approval and airborne certification. QA idiots tried to pour cold water and the performance was blatantly evident before their eyes, they had to agree. finally mig-27 itself was phased out...

Great work - thank you for your service sir, and thank you for sharing your experiences.

No alternative to local supply chain & atma-nirbharta simply from an spares obsolescence perspective - let alone sanctions and tech denial. This is a problem even in first-world commercial manufacturing let alone developing-world military niche areas

[ashishvikas]

HAL launched the metal cutting for series production of HTT-40 (Basic Trainer Aircraft) at its Nasik Division. Mr. Saket Chaturvedi, CEO (MiG Complex) formally initiated the programme in the presence of senior officials from DGAQA, CEMILAC, IAF and HAL.

This is a major milestone in manufacturing of HTT-40 giving thrust to self-reliance. HTT-40 aircraft is indigenously designed and developed by HAL with initial contract to supply 70 HTT-40. @SpokespersonMoD @giridhararamane @DefProdnIndia @gopalsutar

https://twitter.com/HALHQBLR/status/166 ... hSpBQ&s=19

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1700 ... 38941?s=20 ---> The DCAS Air Marshal A Dixit flew a sortie today in the indigenously designed and developed HTT-40 aircraft. He complimented the team of HAL for building a state-of-the-art trainer aircraft for the IAF.

Deputy Chief of the Air Staff flies the Hindustan Turbo Trainer HTT-40
https://pib.gov.in/PressReleseDetail.aspx?PRID=1955532
08 Sept 2023

[srin]

Six months on, HAL’s trainer aircraft for IAF awaits full safety certification

Six months after the defence ministry signed a contract with the state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to procure 70 HTT-40 basic trainer aircraft for the Indian Air Force (IAF), the indigenously-made aircraft is still awaiting the full airworthiness certification from the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification (CEMILAC), leading to concerns over a possible delay in its planned delivery schedule.

Sources in the government said that while CEMILAC had accorded provisional airworthiness compliance to HTT-40 with several “critical limitations”, the aircraft will have to obtain complete airworthiness certificate prior to start of production, which at present, HAL is in the process of obtaining.

The source said that HTT 40 is abiding by the timeline, adding that major jigs and fixtures have been ordered by HAL and materials procurement activities are under way.

“All the aircraft will be supplied over a period of six years, say by 2029, though we cannot put the exact time frame for the first and the last deliveries,” the source said.

[Rakesh]

Somebody's feelings are sure to be hurt on BRF Awaiting the critique that will come from this post.

https://x.com/FighterPiloting/status/17 ... 46936?s=20 ---> Saab Gripen's "technological superiority over challenging adversaries." Now, they are upgrading to the same batteries that India's basic trainer, HTT-40, has. Bow to thy greatness.

https://x.com/Firezstarter1/status/1719 ... 55252?s=20 ---> Gripen PR is next level and also next level misleading. I'd love to see their real range and payload figures.