2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

[KJo]

https://www.opindia.com/2020/12/farmer- ... es-hindus/
‘Inki aurate take-take ke bhaw bikti thi’, after justifying death threat to PM Modi, Yuvraj Singh’s father Yograj Singh humiliates Hindus

Govt should make it clear that no one will be allowed to spoil civic atmosphere and create communal disturbance and that any such activity will lead to arrest and imprisonment. These anti-nationals and BIF need to be dealt with tough hand. Leaders should be picked up whenever they give such antinational speech/statements.

Rather than govt taking action against such folks at this time, which will only be portrayed as "government oppression", such statements should be reinforced to Hindu communities throughout the rest of India - South, West, East - and even abroad.

Make sure ordinary people understand the true nature of these racist & sexist Sikh supremacists and the danger they pose to Hindus.

Thing to keep in mind - Sikhs are part of the Sanatani family. Yes, some are like prodigal sons and have played into the hands of the pakis and the very people who oppressed their ancestors, but that does not change things.
Dealing with pakis is easier than dealing with local insurgents or separatists.

[vijayk]

Quick question on this protests

Why does BJP allow these protestors to congregate after Shaheenbagh and Delhi riots? Why can't IB provide this info earlier and thwart these idiots to come in? As soon as they come in Ismalists, Naxals, Commies, CON party and now Sikh extremists and filthy shit from US/Canada start adding fuel to the fire. We have to nip it in the bud. Don't let them in. Is it too difficult?

This isn't the right way to look at the problem. You don't throw the intelligence agencies at what is a rule of law problem. Yes, there may be antinational elements that IB wants to keep track of, but this is a separate matter.

The constitution guarantees the right to protest. However, the constitution also guarantees other rights. Amongst these is the freedom of movement to everyone. In other words, those who block access to parks for the general public are getting in the way of my rights.

In a society based on rule of law, organized protests need a permit from the police and city. The permits enable the city to plan ahead for the congregation and ensure they can provide for emergency vehicle access to anyone who has an accident or feels ill (or is some brainless idiot who is heavily pregnant or brings her infant along, as happened before).

A lot of these problems can be fixed by thinking like a developed society with rules. My fundamental problem with these protests is that it's just a noisy free for all. Even if they have something interesting to say, i'm going to ignore them because they're a massive public nuisance.

A lot of problems can be mitigated with the clear and consistent application of rule of law. For example, parks like any other public space have an occupancy limit. Exceeding this limit is dangerous to human welfare for many reasons - stampede risk, lack of ability to exit easily in case of a hazard, lack of ability to get emergency services in. Permits keep protests from occupying a place longer than permitted.

Of course all these require the clear application of law, not some wild lathicharge that makes for bad optics and simply underscores that the state cannot respond effectively - which is the primary goal of the protests, to undermine the state and demonstrate its weaknesses. Therefore, I would like for the state to have a clear and organized response rather than act in a way that plays into the hands of these protesters. They want to show chaos. The state should not aid that.

of course, protests are part of democracy but there are no rules forthese folks. They won't accept laws passed by the Parliament or rules of the society. They block roads, create chaos and push agendas. We have seen during CAA and now this one. May be we have to formalize and ask them to take permits etc. But their demands are like 1. Withdraws all laws. 2. Free all urban naxals/jihadis who were arrested 3. Put MSP for all crops all over
Why would they take permits and protest lawfully. They want to blackmail the country and push extremists.

[chetak]

skeletons in hypocrite amarinder's closet are surfacing one by one.

all these guys have been skimming off the MSP cream for decades, living off the high hog and riding the gravy train by ensuring that only their favorites got the chance to clamber on board

[vimal]

Is there a Punjab thread somewhere. We have one for Andhra/Telangana/Kerala. This farmer protest this is sucking the oxygen out of this thread.

[chetak]

myth of the hyped up image of the famed and pampered punjab farmer, who is in reality a mediocre performer when compared to the farmer from several other states, farmers who survive and produce better quality and quantity of grains despite govt subsidies to them ranging from nil to very little.

let every farmer in India get a level playing field and the chance to make just profits without hundreds of lakhs of politically propped up middlemen skimming the cream off the top and paying off their political masters to help them perpetuate this open loot, plunder and pillage of the agri sector

[chetak]

via@db_is_db

A poor Sivakasi fireworks industry worker does not matter, his income can be taxed if it crosses some threshold. But a rich tax exempt farmer can continue burning stubble. Some justice.

TIMES NOW@TimesNow · Dec 5

#Breaking | Farmers-Govt meeting: Govt ready to take back stubble burning ordinance.

Farmers assured that cases of stubble burning registered will be quashed.

[sanjaykumar]

The stupid residents of Delhi of course won’t be bothered to block roads into Panjab.

So what if their children’s asthma cancer and cardiac risks skyrocket.

[disha]

via@db_is_db

A poor Sivakasi fireworks industry worker does not matter, his income can be taxed if it crosses some threshold. But a rich tax exempt farmer can continue burning stubble. Some justice.

TIMES NOW@TimesNow · Dec 5

#Breaking | Farmers-Govt meeting: Govt ready to take back stubble burning ordinance.

Farmers assured that cases of stubble burning registered will be quashed.

I totally agree on the stubble burning ordinance to be withdrawn at the center. First of all Punjab state is the major polluter and Haryana is the minor polluter. Delhi is the most affected. Let Delhi negotiate with Punjab and Haryana? Why cannot Delhi setup power generation facilities using stubble or mushroom farming using stubble within Delhi? Or partner with Punjab and Haryana to do the same?

Only thing Center can do is setup a fund under renewable energy or agriculture to incentivize states to use farm waste more effectively. Yes there can be general rules under pollution and states can be fined for not following pollution norms. This can go in national water or air or land quality indexes and funds to improve them should be added and fines for not following the laws should also be put in place. For example, if Punjab does not meat the the air quality index by x or y date then they will lose out on some funds from center.

This 'ban' this or 'ban' that is just a knee jerk reaction to SC strictures.

[sanjaykumar]

How much of the stubble is from production of sh!t that nobody needs and that the people of India quietly buy as extortion payment?


Even if it is 20%, that is significant. I would like to see the Sikh farmer paid to not grow grain. Yes that is correct. With $600 billion reserves GoI can pay these farmers whatever it takes to idle their farms. The payments can be for 5 years or 10 years. That should be enough time to retrain them for other vocations.

There are enough good people amongst them that many will refuse payment for idleness. As a matter of izzat. They can be compensated via other means.

[ManSingh]

via@db_is_db

I totally agree on the stubble burning ordinance to be withdrawn at the center. First of all Punjab state is the major polluter and Haryana is the minor polluter. Delhi is the most affected. Let Delhi negotiate with Punjab and Haryana? Why cannot Delhi setup power generation facilities using stubble or mushroom farming using stubble within Delhi? Or partner with Punjab and Haryana to do the same?

Only thing Center can do is setup a fund under renewable energy or agriculture to incentivize states to use farm waste more effectively. Yes there can be general rules under pollution and states can be fined for not following pollution norms. This can go in national water or air or land quality indexes and funds to improve them should be added and fines for not following the laws should also be put in place. For example, if Punjab does not meat the the air quality index by x or y date then they will lose out on some funds from center.

This 'ban' this or 'ban' that is just a knee jerk reaction to SC strictures.

AQI of cities in Punjab is far worse than that of Delhi due to stubble burning. So it is to Punjab's interest to fix this problem for itself irrespective of if Delhi is affected or not.

The reason as to why this problem has not been fixed is economic. Removing stubble, transporting and making use of it is expensive, requires specialized equipment and the economics are not attractive.

A better option is zero tillage farming. This requires some hard work and application of specialized knowledge developed by agricultural research institutions. Of course our system of governance would rather throw money at a problem in the hope that it goes away.

[IndraD]

[vijayk]

The stupid residents of Delhi of course won’t be bothered to block roads into Panjab.

So what if their children’s asthma cancer and cardiac risks skyrocket.

Just give them free electricity rates and low water rate. They will vote for any one

[sanjaykumar]

Yea that’s why I can’t really blame the Sikh farmers too much. There is a culture of getting something for nothing right here in Delhi.

[chetak]

[chetak]

paki federal minister fawad hussain tweeting in support of punjabi "farmers"


how lucky can modi get

Ch Fawad Hussain@fawadchaudhry

Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We must speak up against injustice done to Punjabi farmers Modi policies are a threat to whole region. #FarmersProtest

[Vayutuvan]

The reason as to why this problem has not been fixed is economic. Removing stubble, transporting and making use of it is expensive, requires specialized equipment and the economics are not attractive.

What if it can be made economically attractive? You seem to be a farmer in Punjab as per your own claims. Would you be willing to talk to a company that will pay money for the stubble? If you can't or unwilling to remove the stubble, they will lift the stubble from your farm for free. my understanding is that there are also aggregators who take the stubble from the field.

You can get my details from Admin Ramana garu, Prasanna Simha, or others. Please let me know.

[arshyam]

How are other states that grow rice or wheat manage without burning stubble? I have hardly seen any cases of stubble burning in TN or KA, for example, and these are heavily rice-intensive agri-economies.

[sanjaykumar]

paki federal minister fawad hussain tweeting in support of punjabi "farmers"


how lucky can modi get

Ch Fawad Hussain@fawadchaudhry

Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We must speak up against injustice done to Punjabi farmers Modi policies are a threat to whole region. #FarmersProtest

Justice would be welcoming Sikhs to their ancestral homes, businesses and farms. Or is that not halal, Mr Chod-hary

[Vayutuvan]

How are other states that grow rice or wheat manage without burning stubble? I have hardly seen any cases of stubble burning in TN or KA, for example, and these are heavily rice-intensive agri-economies.

or TS (which grows more Rice than AP, TN, and KA, by the way).

[hanumadu]

How are other states that grow rice or wheat manage without burning stubble? I have hardly seen any cases of stubble burning in TN or KA, for example, and these are heavily rice-intensive agri-economies.

or TS (which grows more Rice than AP, TN, and KA, by the way).

If I remember correctly, they stubble was ploughed after harvest and left in the field. The field is ploughed and soil turned over multiple times after harvest and before next planting. Stubble would be mostly mixed with soil by now The paddy fields are inundated with water for several days before planting rice. Any stubble left gets rotten in the water and becomes manure I guess. This is from memory from several years ago, so its all hazy.

Now with combine harvesters, the rice stalks seem to be cut much higher from the grown. If fact, they probably couldn't be burned if the cut stalks are not long enough to catch fire and spread them to adjacent stalks. Just ploughing the soil and leaving the stubble in the soil is probably not an option any more because of the length. But there are several machines by Shaktiman (and perhaps others) to deal with crop residue as per their website. Frankly I really don't see what is the issue other than cost of the machine (hiring or buying).

I don't know about wheat. I have seen a wheat crop but once in my life.

Added Later: The combiners in India don't seem to mince the wheat stalks into powder after threshing them but leave the long strands of straw in the field. Either we need combiners that powder the straw after threshing it or machines that roll up the residue straw for cattle.

[hanumadu]

A baler machine that can roll up the straw, but it will cost to bale them. Are the farmers are not finding a use for the rolled up straw to offset the cost of baling them?

[ManSingh]

How are other states that grow rice or wheat manage without burning stubble? I have hardly seen any cases of stubble burning in TN or KA, for example, and these are heavily rice-intensive agri-economies.

or TS (which grows more Rice than AP, TN, and KA, by the way).

Genuine question. Do these states grow wheat post paddy harvesting? If so how much ia the time gap?

For punjab, the issue is timing. It is the last state to be covered by either of the two monsoons. So paddy is sowed late. It has been a law for the past decade or so which prohibits sowing of paddy in summer months to conserve water. The earliest is first two weeks of July. This leaves less time at the end of harvesting for the rice stubble to rot fully before wheat needs to be planted.

OT: I didn't want to get into this but stubble burning is not the only cause of poor AQI though it is a convenient conclusion always. After the withdrawal of monsoons, the air over North western India becomes awfully quiet with no wind whatsoever. Also colder air has a greater capacity to hold suspended particulate matter than warm air. So particles remain suspended in the air for a long time. After that it all comes down to timing as to how severe the air smog gets. Worst case scenario is an early winter, an october diwali overlapping the paddy harvesting season. Best case is mild winter, late Nov diwali.

So the reasons are topographic as well with New Delhi trapped at the center as a heat island with a higher passenger vehicle count than the next four metro's combined, low tree cover and a high level of construction activity.

[hanumadu]

In this video, the rice straws are cut much higher from the ground compared to the previous video. Also the rice is planted much closer to each other compared to the previous video. Perhaps, the combiner can be adjusted to cut at a lower height.



The solution seems easy. An addition to the combiners to cut the straw into fine pieces or if you can make money from the straw, buy or hire a baler.

Also farmers in the north don't seem to make much effort in the preparation and upkeep of the fields. The fields are uneven (reason why the combiners are set to cut the crop high above the ground?), the boundaries not clearly demarcated. Just not aesthetically pleasing. My memories of a south Indian paddy fields are very different.

[la.khan]

Is there a Punjab thread somewhere. We have one for Andhra/Telangana/Kerala. This farmer protest this is sucking the oxygen out of this thread.

I second this. Can all discussions on farm protests, MSP, stubble burning etc. be moved to a dedicated Panjab thread or Agriculture thread?

I knew BRF as a place of discussion on matters military, defence, national security, war strategy, diplomacy, neighbours' affairs (you know which two neigbhours I am referring to) etc. In the last few months/years, politics was added to the menu.

Ever since the farm protests broke out, this forum is run over by farmers, agriculturists, economists, agrarian distress experts etc. Looks like many of you read the columns of P. Sainath I better stop or some farmer may shove a plough or even a tractor up my you-know-what

[KJo]

A baler machine that can roll up the straw, but it will cost to bale them. Are the farmers are not finding a use for the rolled up straw to offset the cost of baling them?

What a beautiful machine! Thanks for posting. Fascinating to watch.

[hanumadu]

or TS (which grows more Rice than AP, TN, and KA, by the way).

Genuine question. Do these states grow wheat post paddy harvesting? If so how much ia the time gap?

For punjab, the issue is timing. It is the last state to be covered by either of the two monsoons. So paddy is sowed late.

I never imagined Punjab is dependent on monsoon. It is the land of five rivers, after all. And that is what I thought made Punjab rich and a power house in agriculture.

[nvishal]

Thing to keep in mind - Sikhs are part of the Sanatani family.

There is no such thing as a "Sanatani family". And most Sikhs will laugh at such a nonsensical assertion.

The Sikhs are very explicit, something you consciously refuse to acknowledge or look the other way. They consider themselves(in their mind) the rightful heirs to the throne of new Delhi. They are openly telling you that if you don't give them the throne, or if you refuse to do what they say, they will reveal their capacity to disturb you and cause chaos. This is the same mindset we encounter from the castes across the border.

If you really want to break the expansionist will of these castes through nonviolence, you need to contain them inside Punjab. Restrict market access of Punjabi produce from entering other Indian states through laws. Restrict their access(migration) to other Indian states through more laws. You are essentially dealing with tribals.

[hanumadu]

Thing to keep in mind - Sikhs are part of the Sanatani family.

There is no such thing as a "Sanatani family".

The Sikhs are very explicit, something you consciously refuse to acknowledge or look the other way. They consider themselves(in their mind) the rightful heirs to the throne of new Delhi. They are openly telling you that if you don't give them the throne, or if you refuse to do what they say, they will reveal their capacity to disturb you and cause chaos. This is the same mindset we encounter from the castes across the border.

If you really want to break the expansionist will of these castes through nonviolence, you need to contain them inside Punjab. Restrict market access of Punjabi produce from entering other Indian states through laws. Restrict their access(migration) to other Indian states through more laws. You are essentially dealing with tribals.

I don't know many Sikh people, but I never got the impression from them that you are painting here. Looks like you are confusing RoP with Sikhs. Expansionist? With 1% population of India? OK, sure.

[Vayutuvan]

my experience with Sikhs is the same as hanumadu's. anecdotal, so TIFWIW.

[nvishal]

I don't know many Sikh people, but I never got the impression from them that you are painting here

You scratched away the 70s caste wars of Punjab so easily. It exists till this day and they have great ambitions, fueled by fables of the erstwhile Sikh empire/militia.

The Sikhs have many castes but is dominated by the jatt castes. The stereotypical and obese "Mr. Happy Singh" is a minority there.

[chetak]

the "farmer's" ranks seem to be breaking

[Aditya_V]

No setting, they cannot help themselves, quite frankly, while this Bandh is in Media, speaking for myself, for ordinary folks this is a flop show.

This news will be there in the media fir the next 2 months while Corona is forgotten.

[nandakumar]

A question for specialists in Sikh history. Are there marriages between Sikhs and Hindus? It used to be quite common in the past. But the politics of Punjab in the early 80s put an end to that phenomenon. I know of a case, a close friend of mine who was a Punjabi Brahmin in love with a Sikh girl in the early 80s. Couldn't get married to her. Don't know what the situation now is.

[Paul]

I know a kannadiga brahmin army officer who married a Sikh girl. Happens all the time

[VickersB]

Forget intermarriage - i'll give you one better - Hindu families in villages in Haryana and Himachal (still to this day) sacrifice their elder son to the Panth. The elder son grows "Kesh" and chakkos "Amrit"

[disha]

How are other states that grow rice or wheat manage without burning stubble? I have hardly seen any cases of stubble burning in TN or KA, for example, and these are heavily rice-intensive agri-economies.

Every state burns the stubble. Some more some less. The problem is the fields harvested with combine harvesters leave stubble on the ground and it takes effort to remove it. Further, the rice (paddy) stubble is not useful for cattle compared to the wheat stubble due to higher silica content.

Punjab and Haryana never were large rice-producing states. But they rotate the paddy/wheat and sometimes it is as less as 2 weeks before they need to clear the paddy stubble and plant for wheat. Hence they do the next best thing. Burn the crop.

You can read more at https://aaqr.org/articles/aaqr-13-01-oa-0031.

Solutions do exist. Like use the rice stubble for making cardboard. Or use a different harvestor technology. Or let the field lie fallow for a season for the paddy to break down naturally. There are good suggestions within this forum and thread by enterprising members!

[kvraghav]

I have a colleague who was neutral but a resident of Delhi. He is suddenly angry on opposition and want to teach them lesson next time because his family was stuck in the border traffic.

[Tanaji]

The issue is that there is no negotiation so far. It is impossible to have discussions when 32 representatives each with their hidden agenda are in a room for negotiations. The only consistent thing they have is repeal 3 laws. Not to mention the drama of not having government food or tea. By this time one would have expected at least high level negotiations with smaller group but that is not happening.

Credit to the AAP and Congress : they have found a good template and will deploy it on every issue. So far BJP has no counter to it. Also, it cannot repeat it when in opposition either as it does not have the muscle and the Congress will not play as nice as BJP does when it is in power.

[chetak]

The issue is that there is no negotiation so far. It is impossible to have discussions when 32 representatives each with their hidden agenda are in a room for negotiations. The only consistent thing they have is repeal 3 laws. Not to mention the drama of not having government food or tea. By this time one would have expected at least high level negotiations with smaller group but that is not happening.

Credit to the AAP and Congress : they have found a good template and will deploy it on every issue. So far BJP has no counter to it. Also, it cannot repeat it when in opposition either as it does not have the muscle and the Congress will not play as nice as BJP does when it is in power.

They will find some law or perhaps place stringent restrictions on gathering en masse and blocking roads and causing disruptions.

this sort of thing just cannot be allowed to continue indefinitely, especially in the national capital.

[chetak]

The issue is that there is no negotiation so far. It is impossible to have discussions when 32 representatives each with their hidden agenda are in a room for negotiations. The only consistent thing they have is repeal 3 laws. Not to mention the drama of not having government food or tea. By this time one would have expected at least high level negotiations with smaller group but that is not happening.

Credit to the AAP and Congress : they have found a good template and will deploy it on every issue. So far BJP has no counter to it. Also, it cannot repeat it when in opposition either as it does not have the muscle and the Congress will not play as nice as BJP does when it is in power.

remember how the ram rahim guys were shot in the streets like rabid dogs and the "press" kept quiet.

the same thing will happen when the BJP is in opposition and if they decide to come out and block the roads.