the endless talks with the farmer's representatives, even while other farmer's unions are being mobilized in favor of the Govt and public perception is beginning to hardensudarshan wrote:Had to look that up, hope that's true.chetak wrote: the govt is using the rope-a-dope tactic used by Muhammad Ali
2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1
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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1
Can you give an example as to where electricity or fertilizers are subsidized to 1/20 of open market prices?sanjaykumar wrote:3) The same cost skew is faced by producers too. Diesel, DAP or other agricultural inputs are not priced at 1/20 the prices of rich nations. I think we have lulled ourselves into a false sense of achievement with PPP terminology. As we match real world per capita income these anomalies will ho away.
There is subsidy of various inputs- from R&D of agricultural varieties to fertilizer to electricity to MSP.
Muft which Khaana kisee noo shoba naee dend daa.
Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1
Man Singh Saar,ManSingh wrote:Can you give an example as to where electricity or fertilizers are subsidized to 1/20 of open market prices?sanjaykumar wrote:3) The same cost skew is faced by producers too. Diesel, DAP or other agricultural inputs are not priced at 1/20 the prices of rich nations. I think we have lulled ourselves into a false sense of achievement with PPP terminology. As we match real world per capita income these anomalies will ho away.
There is subsidy of various inputs- from R&D of agricultural varieties to fertilizer to electricity to MSP.
Muft which Khaana kisee noo shoba naee dend daa.
it seems like the discussion is going round and round in circles. you had earlier pointed out that the Central govt had agreed to most of the logical demands of the farmers, so how long can the fear psychosis be let to run large. Sure, in the future the APMC might be scrapped (isn't that what is supposedly driving the farmer protests )but if and when its done maybe that's the time to get down on the streets and not now. can't get to the streets over what "might happen" 10-15 years in the future.
Captain saab seems to be driving the issue which will ultimately lead to the detriment of Punjab agriculture and its farmers. they had decided to break a private corporations towers and then say they are fighting on the right side (this when the so called private organization hasn't yet stepped into the state for procurement).
the govt has said they can sell in the Mandis or outside if they can get a better price, but we want the middlemen and the commision agents to flourish and arguing based on what might happen and want the status quo to just keep continuing. Never thought that Punjab would see these kind of things. Expected maybe from Jharkand, Chattisgarh or Bihar, but not from Punjab.
Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1
For those worried about corporates exploiting poor farmers, please look up what ITC's e-chaupal initiative has achieved:
ITC e-chaupal
I also recently saw a news story (can't find it now) that Cargill of USA, and Adani, are willing to set up mega projects in Punjab for corn and mustard processing if Punjab farmers will switch from paddy to corn and mustard with guaranteed prices under contract.
I also remember during the 80's when Pepsi first proposed to set up in India, and starting contract cultivation of potato and tomato with farmers in Punjab. A lot of noise was made about how the multinational will exploit farmers. But today everyone knows how the farmers have benefited from Pepsi's project.
The Punjab farmers' protest is totally misguided IMHO.
And have the Khalistan supporters ever thought about who will buy the overpriced wheat and rice from Khalistan? And which port will they export from? Karachi?
ITC e-chaupal
I also recently saw a news story (can't find it now) that Cargill of USA, and Adani, are willing to set up mega projects in Punjab for corn and mustard processing if Punjab farmers will switch from paddy to corn and mustard with guaranteed prices under contract.
I also remember during the 80's when Pepsi first proposed to set up in India, and starting contract cultivation of potato and tomato with farmers in Punjab. A lot of noise was made about how the multinational will exploit farmers. But today everyone knows how the farmers have benefited from Pepsi's project.
The Punjab farmers' protest is totally misguided IMHO.
And have the Khalistan supporters ever thought about who will buy the overpriced wheat and rice from Khalistan? And which port will they export from? Karachi?
Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1
I don’t think sanjaykumar ever said that it is 1/20.ManSingh wrote:
Can you give an example as to where electricity or fertilizers are subsidized to 1/20 of open market prices?
A good article that lists fertiliser subsidies is at
https://indianexpress.com/article/expla ... s-6793395/
For 3 bags of urea, 1 bag of DAP and half bag of MOP the subsidy seems to be Rs. 2418 per acre. For rich farmers this would add up quite quickly.
Electricity is a state subject, and I believe Punjab has free for farm use. I believe water is not taxed as well.
There was another article that was posted that listed so the subsidies a farmer got; Punjab was the highest but this is because they use MSP the most and their usage of fertilisers was the highest.
I don’t know if farmers in Punjab use diesel or electric pumps, in Maharashtra it was more electric as it is free or very cheap to operate.
As Ambarji mentioned before the intent of the laws is not to have an equitable distribution of and neither has the government claimed so. The other point to note is that these laws are not thought up by Modiji on a whim and are likely the result of a detailed study by done agricultural committees on a variety of topics.
I think the main driver is probably the subsidy Bill which the government has very few levers to control. It cannot reduce subsidy and cannot bring in laws that force farmers to grow a particular crop: doing so is political suicide. One of the options is to nudge them using indirect policies by making it more lucrative to grow non MSP crops. In any case, the farmers in Punjab will have to transition to something else if not anything but due to falling water tables.
Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1
Not to speak for the guy, but I think what he said was that the price was 1/20th of what it is in *rich nations.* And that this is due to PPP calculations. I don't think he was saying "1/20th of open market prices (in India)." Big difference.ManSingh wrote: Can you give an example as to where electricity or fertilizers are subsidized to 1/20 of open market prices?
Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1
Well it's peaceful till now, so no harm done. I agree that private firms should not be subject to an environment of fear. Capt Amrinder Singh has already asked the farmers to accept the centre's offer. There are other parties particularly folks like Yogendra yadav, Hannan Mollah etc who I do not like being in the leadership of this protest. They are trying to shift to a maximalist position for which there can be no reasonable solution.venkat_kv wrote:Man Singh Saar,ManSingh wrote:
Can you give an example as to where electricity or fertilizers are subsidized to 1/20 of open market prices?
it seems like the discussion is going round and round in circles. you had earlier pointed out that the Central govt had agreed to most of the logical demands of the farmers, so how long can the fear psychosis be let to run large. Sure, in the future the APMC might be scrapped (isn't that what is supposedly driving the farmer protests )but if and when its done maybe that's the time to get down on the streets and not now. can't get to the streets over what "might happen" 10-15 years in the future.
Captain saab seems to be driving the issue which will ultimately lead to the detriment of Punjab agriculture and its farmers. they had decided to break a private corporations towers and then say they are fighting on the right side (this when the so called private organization hasn't yet stepped into the state for procurement).
the govt has said they can sell in the Mandis or outside if they can get a better price, but we want the middlemen and the commision agents to flourish and arguing based on what might happen and want the status quo to just keep continuing. Never thought that Punjab would see these kind of things. Expected maybe from Jharkand, Chattisgarh or Bihar, but not from Punjab.
For the APMC stuff, the original bill did not restrict who could act as a purchasing agent. The farmer side argument was that private firms can be allowed to purchase from APMC's. In that way there is a clear record as to who purchased how much and at what price ( even if it is below MSP ). The government should be keeping records, right? Helps in collecting taxes and avoiding distress sales under unfavorable circumstances. The disadvantage is it requires investment from states /central government where markets are not fully developed yet. From my previous post, the government would prefer this investment come from the private sector.
What is being offered is that a PAN card would be mandatory for purchasing and states are free to create their own rules. In my opinion this is neither here nor there. Of course these differences are not something that can not be bridged. Currently both sides are on an ego trip.
Thanks but I request you not use sir or ji for me.
Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1
I too believe the same. The main driver of this bill are agricultural subsidies and also future agricultural investment. Benefiits to farmers and/or lowering prices for the consumer is not the primary goal. There is an interview of dr. Ashok Gulati who explains the way forward on how to proceed including reducing subsidies, solving the current impasse and the path towards removing paddy from crop cycle in Punjab. I think it is reasonable.Tanaji wrote:I don’t think sanjaykumar ever said that it is 1/20.ManSingh wrote:
Can you give an example as to where electricity or fertilizers are subsidized to 1/20 of open market prices?
A good article that lists fertiliser subsidies is at
https://indianexpress.com/article/expla ... s-6793395/
For 3 bags of urea, 1 bag of DAP and half bag of MOP the subsidy seems to be Rs. 2418 per acre. For rich farmers this would add up quite quickly.
Electricity is a state subject, and I believe Punjab has free for farm use. I believe water is not taxed as well.
There was another article that was posted that listed so the subsidies a farmer got; Punjab was the highest but this is because they use MSP the most and their usage of fertilisers was the highest.
I don’t know if farmers in Punjab use diesel or electric pumps, in Maharashtra it was more electric as it is free or very cheap to operate.
As Ambarji mentioned before the intent of the laws is not to have an equitable distribution of and neither has the government claimed so. The other point to note is that these laws are not thought up by Modiji on a whim and are likely the result of a detailed study by done agricultural committees on a variety of topics.
I think the main driver is probably the subsidy Bill which the government has very few levers to control. It cannot reduce subsidy and cannot bring in laws that force farmers to grow a particular crop: doing so is political suicide. One of the options is to nudge them using indirect policies by making it more lucrative to grow non MSP crops. In any case, the farmers in Punjab will have to transition to something else if not anything but due to falling water tables.
Not posting here because the interviewer is Karan thapar. I dont think this forum would be too welcoming of that link.
Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1
Marya Shakil
@maryashakil
This is the Covid response report of Punjab Govt. On page 334 the report says “opening up of agricultural marketing beyond APMCs to increase the scope of selling farmer produce.”
In September, Punjab Chief Secy said these reforms must be implemented. #FarmBills2020
Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1
The main intent of the farm bills may not be to reduce the food inflation but tapering of MSP and letting the market decide the price will help the average consumer in the long run. You already see this with produce not supported by MSP, a kilo of tomatoes may sell for Rs50 or Rs15 depending on the yield, supply and demand. Whereas commodities covered by PSS with an artificial MSP floor only has one trajectory for the prices. Retail food inflation is a serious problem in our country which the laughable santa claus numbers published by RBI or Min. of Statistic and Program implementation does not reflect. When essential commodities covered by MSP has risen 4x to 5x in retail prices in the last 12 yrs, it has a serious effect on consumer spending and overall economy.
While i agree that it is not realistic to expect local produce to sell at 1/15th or 1/20th the international prices just because we are that much poorer, it is unfair to the average middle class consumer who has to foot the bill for water, electricity, fertilizer subsidies, then gets the double whammy of also picking the tab for artificial MSP and the cherry on top is when he also has to pay a premium over international prices for the same products he supported from seeds to final packaging. Let the market do the price discovery , if the demand is high the farmer benefits, if the demand is low then the farmer will learn to hedge by mixing the crops. Higher quality will fetch higher prices, lower quality will fetch lower prices there by incentivizing the farmer and the entire logistics chain to improve.
Anyways, i expect the protests to reach a crescendo by late Jan when Boris Johnson's visit nears. Showing the khalistani banners and inviting the dafli gang very early in the game seems to have taken some wind out of the protests, but then again during anti-CAA protests it died down in late december only to pick up from middle of Jan, so probably the same thing will repeat.
While i agree that it is not realistic to expect local produce to sell at 1/15th or 1/20th the international prices just because we are that much poorer, it is unfair to the average middle class consumer who has to foot the bill for water, electricity, fertilizer subsidies, then gets the double whammy of also picking the tab for artificial MSP and the cherry on top is when he also has to pay a premium over international prices for the same products he supported from seeds to final packaging. Let the market do the price discovery , if the demand is high the farmer benefits, if the demand is low then the farmer will learn to hedge by mixing the crops. Higher quality will fetch higher prices, lower quality will fetch lower prices there by incentivizing the farmer and the entire logistics chain to improve.
Anyways, i expect the protests to reach a crescendo by late Jan when Boris Johnson's visit nears. Showing the khalistani banners and inviting the dafli gang very early in the game seems to have taken some wind out of the protests, but then again during anti-CAA protests it died down in late december only to pick up from middle of Jan, so probably the same thing will repeat.
Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1
Disconnecting or damaging Reliance Jio or any other Adani company's or even any Public property/infrastructure just because your protest is not eliciting the result you want - is a very CHEAP demeaning activity. People performing this could even be hauled to court/jails.
Do not Punjab or Haryana state folks, their sons or daughters work in these companies or do these folks not hold shares in these companies ?. Definitely indicates a bad culture and credibility of state government will be lost. All this for sake of excessive subsidy seeking & vote bank politics.
What happens tomorrow if Punjabi Sikh based companies are selectively targeted by the folks on other side and their businesses dragged into losses ?. Are these Punjabi Sikh farmers and Haryanvi farmer communities ready for such a scenario.
Do not Punjab or Haryana state folks, their sons or daughters work in these companies or do these folks not hold shares in these companies ?. Definitely indicates a bad culture and credibility of state government will be lost. All this for sake of excessive subsidy seeking & vote bank politics.
What happens tomorrow if Punjabi Sikh based companies are selectively targeted by the folks on other side and their businesses dragged into losses ?. Are these Punjabi Sikh farmers and Haryanvi farmer communities ready for such a scenario.
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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1
Many mandirs have started taking off their images but following is every year event event at new age mandirs within India.chetak wrote:Somewhere, the Hindus have lost the plot.
By all means, one may wish merry christmas to anyone one pleases, but to forget or to keep mum on Gita Jayanti and Vaikuntha Ekadashi is like taking an axe to one's own ancient cultural and civilizational heritage.
This one is from outside India but one could have easily run into one within India too.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_ ... n__=%2AW-R
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Is this farmer side argument, or commission agent side argument? With private firms buying from APMCs, the monopoly of APMC and commission agents still remains intact.ManSingh wrote:For the APMC stuff, the original bill did not restrict who could act as a purchasing agent. The farmer side argument was that private firms can be allowed to purchase from APMC's. In that way there is a clear record as to who purchased how much and at what price ( even if it is below MSP )
Do you support the freedom of farmers to sell outside the mandis bypassing the monopoly of commission agents?
Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1
Actually, my question is: Why should FCI procure from mandis anymore ? Why can't they (using current laws) procure directly from the farmer and cut out the mandi commissions ?
Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1
It certainly is merry xmas somewhere
via@radharaju18
via@radharaju18
Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1
All supply chains start with a purchasing/comission agent be it a private one or a government one. After these laws, both the chains are likely to have the same person acting as an agent both for the government or private buyers. Private players will not have the required purchase expertise for several years to come.sanjayc wrote:Is this farmer side argument, or commission agent side argument? With private firms buying from APMCs, the monopoly of APMC and commission agents still remains intact.ManSingh wrote:For the APMC stuff, the original bill did not restrict who could act as a purchasing agent. The farmer side argument was that private firms can be allowed to purchase from APMC's. In that way there is a clear record as to who purchased how much and at what price ( even if it is below MSP )
Do you support the freedom of farmers to sell outside the mandis bypassing the monopoly of commission agents?
So the right question is, should the purchasing agents be licensed, registered and their records open to scrutiny as in APMC's or be a black box.
It helps the farmers if the quantity, price of purchase is recorded and available for future negotiations.
Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1
deceased congi treasurer motiwal vora with some of his treasure
unbelievable, what these guys got away with
unbelievable, what these guys got away with
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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1
ManSingh
The notion that the farmer gets the MSP minus mandi fees and Arhatya's commission is simply not true. There are arbitrary deductions for moisture content, other quality differential and so on. And it is all opaque and cash based transactions. The farmer has no recourse to arbitration like in a stock exchange. He has only recourse to the officers of the APMC which anyway is a handmaid of the big agents.The only documentation that is made is after the sale is effected to a buyer such as the FCI or ITC and so on. This document is essential for the private trade to transport the grain. Everything prior to that is a black box.
The notion that the farmer gets the MSP minus mandi fees and Arhatya's commission is simply not true. There are arbitrary deductions for moisture content, other quality differential and so on. And it is all opaque and cash based transactions. The farmer has no recourse to arbitration like in a stock exchange. He has only recourse to the officers of the APMC which anyway is a handmaid of the big agents.The only documentation that is made is after the sale is effected to a buyer such as the FCI or ITC and so on. This document is essential for the private trade to transport the grain. Everything prior to that is a black box.
Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1
FCI ia not a low level purchasing agency. It does not have the organization structure for what you are asking.srin wrote:Actually, my question is: Why should FCI procure from mandis anymore ? Why can't they (using current laws) procure directly from the farmer and cut out the mandi commissions ?
Also, FCI is the bigger problem that needs to be fixed for several reasons:
1) FCI is paid a mark-up of 40% for all its purchases. So if it pays 100 for food grain to the APMC's, government pays it 140 to account for losses and its inefficient supply chain. The actual food grain purchase is only 85-90 depending on the APMC comission.
2) An FCI loader( labourer who loads sacks for transportation ) is paid between 1 and 4 lakh per month for his work. This is due to unionized work. This is way beyond fair compensation for the skill level and effort.
FCI played a heroic role in the food security of the country in 60's and 70's. But it has turned into a large behemoth than needs drastic changes to turn it around. The government uses FCI to procure food grains for PDS and to assure supply in regions where agricultural production does not meet the consumption requirements. Going by the track record, I think the govt would want to replace PDS with direct benefit transfer so that the poor population can directly purchase food grains from the market.
Please also watch:
https://youtu.be/Kr9QpifBrPw
Note, this is a wire.in interview of Dr.Ashok Gulati. You may find similar opinions of dr. Ashok elsewhere.
Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1
Chetakji, A link for you,chetak wrote:It certainly is merry xmas somewhere
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Alexander_VI
He was a Pope with his own family!
"Of Alexander's many mistresses the one for whom passion lasted longest was Vannozza (Giovanna) dei Cattanei, born in 1442, and wife of three successive husbands. The connection began in 1470, and she had four children whom he openly acknowledged as his own: Cesare (born 1475), Giovanni, afterwards duke of Gandia (commonly known as Juan, born 1476), Lucrezia (born 1480), and Gioffre (Goffredo in Italian, born 1481 or 1482). For a period of time, before legitimizing his children after becoming Pope, Rodrigo pretended that his four children with Vannozza were his niece and nephews and that they were fathered by Vannozza's husbands.[50]
Before his elevation to the papacy, Cardinal Borgia's passion for Vannozza somewhat diminished, and she subsequently led a very retired life. Her place in his affections was filled, according to some, by the beautiful Giulia Farnese ("Giulia la Bella"), wife of an Orsini. However, he still very dearly loved Vannozza, in a way he considered "spiritual", and his love for his children by Vannozza remained as strong as ever and proved, indeed, the determining factor of his whole career. He lavished vast sums on them and lauded them with every honor. Vannozza lived in the Palace of a late Cardinal, or in a large, palatial villa. The children lived between their mother's home and the Papal Palace itself. The atmosphere of Alexander's household is typified by the fact that his daughter Lucrezia apparently lived with Giulia at a point.[24]"
If the Pope is allowed, Ji why not a priest?
Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1
I know that purchase price is mostly below MSP and cash based. However this relationship between the Arhtiya and farmer serves as an important rural credit. For marriages, purchasing fertilizers and many other reasons this relationship despite its flaws works mostly. I don't remember the form number but the agricultural income form is useless to get personal loans as compared to form 16.nandakumar wrote:ManSingh
The notion that the farmer gets the MSP minus mandi fees and Arhatya's commission is simply not true. There are arbitrary deductions for moisture content, other quality differential and so on. And it is all opaque and cash based transactions. The farmer has no recourse to arbitration like in a stock exchange. He has only recourse to the officers of the APMC which anyway is a handmaid of the big agents.The only documentation that is made is after the sale is effected to a buyer such as the FCI or ITC and so on. This document is essential for the private trade to transport the grain. Everything prior to that is a black box.
This is a side discussion I did not want to introduce. I don't think the argument is against reforms. The problem is lack of protectio s in a market that is very monopolistic and a legal system that is backlogged several decades and is unable to sort out issue of monopolies. This against a procurement system that is well defined and sort of works even if only at a certain percentage.
Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1
This guy Arvind who claimed all growth numbers are fraud 2 years ago.
Now he has another attack. Modi is giving bank accounts, cash, cylinders, roads, sanitation and electricity but starving the kids because of election populism.
Probably he is probing how to start attacking for 2024 and make it mainstream. Soon scums of NPR/NYT will start going berserk on this.
But important fact is the BIF and their sepoys figured out what Suraj has been saying for last 2-3 years. Modi is changing the ground situation in the life of poor.
Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1
https://www.hindustantimes.com/karnatak ... f5J5O.html
Kumaraswamy bats for farm legislation, Deve Gowda criticises Congress
The former Karnataka CM said that the ongoing farmers’ protest had started attracting the attention of not only the country but the entire world.
Even as former Karnataka chief minister and senior JDS leader HD Kumaraswamy batted for the central farm legislation, his father and former prime minister Deve Gowda criticised the Congress and said that the JDS cannot be finished.
“For quite some time there has been a strong public opinion that Indian agricultural sector is caught in a vicious circle. It is very much necessary on our part to be ready for any experiment if it can bring about the welfare of the farm sector by rescuing it from the vicious circle. Hence, I personally feel that farmers should have an open mind towards ‘experimenting’ with the new legislation. But there has to be proper coordination between the Centre and the protesters,” Kumaraswamy tweeted.
Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1
I'm glad that they at least gave some credit where it was due. They accept that sanitation level has gone up to 70%, a year or two ago they would not even acknowledge the program. Also, can't miss snide reference to appropriating left's idea of redistribution of wealth and comparing Modi to that dolt Erdogan.vijayk wrote:
This guy Arvind who claimed all growth numbers are fraud 2 years ago.
Now he has another attack. Modi is giving bank accounts, cash, cylinders, roads, sanitation and electricity but starving the kids because of election populism.
It's easy when you look at the bio of people who wrote the article:
- Abhishek Anand is graduate student at Harvard Kennedy School,
- Vikas Dimble is deputy director Ashoka center for economic policy
- Arvind Subramanian is professor Ashoka university.
Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1
vijayk: what magazine is that from ?
Really poorly written article. It crudely applied western ideas of ‘left’ and ‘right’ upon India. So it is clearly for a western audience. ‘Neo Welfarism’ is a stupid and patronizing term. We aren’t taking about next gen high technology here . We are talking about public latrines, electricity, basic banking and cooking fuel to the masses. That’s not welfare or wealth distribution. That is the most basic set of public goods and services a government needs to deliver to the populace. If it takes ‘neo welfarism’ to do that, WTF was the original welfarism of 6 decades doing ?
Really poorly written article. It crudely applied western ideas of ‘left’ and ‘right’ upon India. So it is clearly for a western audience. ‘Neo Welfarism’ is a stupid and patronizing term. We aren’t taking about next gen high technology here . We are talking about public latrines, electricity, basic banking and cooking fuel to the masses. That’s not welfare or wealth distribution. That is the most basic set of public goods and services a government needs to deliver to the populace. If it takes ‘neo welfarism’ to do that, WTF was the original welfarism of 6 decades doing ?
Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1
Ashoka University is a den of communists, leftists and Hindu-phobes (all of them White skin worshippers suffering from inferiority complex about their brown-skin identity). Founded by Deep Kalra, Founder of MakeMyTrip. What happens to the brains of these capitalist retards who make money through private enterprise and then set up watering holes for communists to spread their pernicious ideology in India? Do they suffer from a death wish, what Arun Shourie called "a desire to get oneself whipped"?vimal wrote:It's easy when you look at the bio of people who wrote the article:
- Abhishek Anand is graduate student at Harvard Kennedy School,
- Vikas Dimble is deputy director Ashoka center for economic policy
- Arvind Subramanian is professor Ashoka university.
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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1
Lisa wrote
Chetakji, A link for you,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Alexander_VI
He was a Pope with his own family!
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________
A carnival of Christians.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/arti ... ghter.html
Indians as usual are not in the same league.
(Trust the mail to not shrink from the prurient details. Hehehe).
Chetakji, A link for you,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Alexander_VI
He was a Pope with his own family!
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________
A carnival of Christians.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/arti ... ghter.html
Indians as usual are not in the same league.
(Trust the mail to not shrink from the prurient details. Hehehe).
Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1
I hope Yeddi is smart enough to see through this smoke and mirrors and not fall for the old tricks of chronic cry baby Kumaraswamy or the wily old fox Devegowda. JDS is fighting for its survival in Karnataka after having been driven out everywhere except in the old mysore and Bangalore area where they have some presence. They lost their fortress Hassan to BJP in the last state assembly elections and struggled through the general election. Kumaraswamy is likely making overtures for two reasons , one the forever infighting in Karnataka BJP will intensify as Yeddiyurappa will likely retire at the end of his term and name a successor and two INC must have made Kumaraswamy's life a living hell in the 1 year their coalition government lasted. Kumaraswamy now realizes how easy it was to lead the government with a naive, inexperienced, infighting BJP as a partner Vs running a coalition with axe-grinding, battle hardened congress. Kumaraswamy once again wants some sort of coalition with him as the CM in the next election cycle so he can again backstab BJP while riding on their coattails.vijayk wrote: Kumaraswamy bats for farm legislation, Deve Gowda criticises Congress
The former Karnataka CM said that the ongoing farmers’ protest had started attracting the attention of not only the country but the entire world.
Even as former Karnataka chief minister and senior JDS leader HD Kumaraswamy batted for the central farm legislation, his father and former prime minister Deve Gowda criticised the Congress and said that the JDS cannot be finished.
“For quite some time there has been a strong public opinion that Indian agricultural sector is caught in a vicious circle. It is very much necessary on our part to be ready for any experiment if it can bring about the welfare of the farm sector by rescuing it from the vicious circle. Hence, I personally feel that farmers should have an open mind towards ‘experimenting’ with the new legislation. But there has to be proper coordination between the Centre and the protesters,” Kumaraswamy tweeted.
The irony is most APMC mandis in Karnataka are either controlled by Congress or JDS who use them as cashcows. If one needs a crash course to learn whats rotten with the mandis then you only need to see the money/booze/women spent during APMC elections in Karnataka. So JDS supporting the farm bills is more a tactical adjustment to hurt congress than a strategic shift in long term policy.
Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1
I got this from a RT of @TheJaggi. Not sure where they got.Suraj wrote:vijayk: what magazine is that from ?
Really poorly written article. It crudely applied western ideas of ‘left’ and ‘right’ upon India. So it is clearly for a western audience. ‘Neo Welfarism’ is a stupid and patronizing term. We aren’t taking about next gen high technology here . We are talking about public latrines, electricity, basic banking and cooking fuel to the masses. That’s not welfare or wealth distribution. That is the most basic set of public goods and services a government needs to deliver to the populace. If it takes ‘neo welfarism’ to do that, WTF was the original welfarism of 6 decades doing ?
Found it ...
Indian express ... Now a days it's Anti-Indian Express
https://indianexpress.com/article/opini ... t-7114104/
New Welfarism of Modi govt represents distinctive approach to redistribution and inclusion
Traditional redistribution, which aims to deliver on intangibles like health and education, has ceded to a distinctive ‘New Welfarism’, where Centre is demonstrably providing tangible essentials to citizens
What is Ayushman Bharati ... U dumb morons! Just spit nonsense w/o any brain ... 24x7 crapping ideological propaganda
First comment ... all comments are good
Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1
They have to get some of these folks who are being egged on by scums like Salim Yadav a.k.a Yogendra Yadav
Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1
^I do not think giving the zamindars an 'honorable' exit is a good idea. It is a pathetic idea.
The only option for the zamindars is to
1. Apologise to GOI for being stupid and starting this unnecessary agitation
2. Pay restitution for the damages to GOI
3. Take an oath on Maa Bharathi that they will not support any Khalistanis. Disavow Bhindranwale completely.
4. Apologize to all other religion and communities which they caused hurt
5. Perform seva for the remote and poor Indians in far flung regions of Bharat
The only option for the zamindars is to
1. Apologise to GOI for being stupid and starting this unnecessary agitation
2. Pay restitution for the damages to GOI
3. Take an oath on Maa Bharathi that they will not support any Khalistanis. Disavow Bhindranwale completely.
4. Apologize to all other religion and communities which they caused hurt
5. Perform seva for the remote and poor Indians in far flung regions of Bharat
Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1
Suraj, these “welfarism” terms have been around for some time, but did not gain traction in public discourse or electoral calculations due to the flimsy foundation it rests on. You cannot convincingly claim to be a liberal who believes in a welfare state and then go on to trash some of the most effective welfare schemes in the world.
IIRC PM Modi’s grass root enablement schemes were targeted for a long time by the anti-BJP academia and elites. They have been struggling to affix a negative label that sticks and which can be used in a negative branding exercise. To such folks’ extreme displeasure, the opposition (including Amul-bae and his family) ran barking after emotive issues that HM Shah throws out on a monthly basis. Add to that the whole silly and highly ineffective “chowkidar chor hai” comical campaign, which blew up in 2019 elections in their faces.
Here are some links from both India and west, which portrays the enablement in a negative way on flimsy premises:
Some dysentric got a Newyorker potty slot and let loose with minimal facts or commonsense:
How India’s Welfare Revolution Is Starving Citizens
By Rahul Bhatia
May 16, 2018
A usual suspect barking about it:
From welfarism, Modi must now shift to structural reforms, writes Rajdeep Sardesai Updated: Jul 05, 2019, 07:52 IST
(If Modi focuses on reforms, it is for Ambani/Adani, if he focuses on welfare it a gimmick for votes)
Random guy bending out of shape:
The truth is, India isn’t rich enough to be a welfare state
January 24, 2019, 12:49 PM IST Chaitanya Kalbag in The Needle's Eye, Economy, ET
And of course the high praise for welfarism if done by non-BJP administrations:
Shilling for AAP in Delhi:
Delhi and the triumph of welfarism
Congress counters nationalism with welfarism
Summary: if you are an Indian liberal, applaud the success of even your political anathema, if it is valid instead of contortionist articles and label affixing!! Did not work in 2019 or till date
IIRC PM Modi’s grass root enablement schemes were targeted for a long time by the anti-BJP academia and elites. They have been struggling to affix a negative label that sticks and which can be used in a negative branding exercise. To such folks’ extreme displeasure, the opposition (including Amul-bae and his family) ran barking after emotive issues that HM Shah throws out on a monthly basis. Add to that the whole silly and highly ineffective “chowkidar chor hai” comical campaign, which blew up in 2019 elections in their faces.
Here are some links from both India and west, which portrays the enablement in a negative way on flimsy premises:
Some dysentric got a Newyorker potty slot and let loose with minimal facts or commonsense:
How India’s Welfare Revolution Is Starving Citizens
By Rahul Bhatia
May 16, 2018
A usual suspect barking about it:
From welfarism, Modi must now shift to structural reforms, writes Rajdeep Sardesai Updated: Jul 05, 2019, 07:52 IST
(If Modi focuses on reforms, it is for Ambani/Adani, if he focuses on welfare it a gimmick for votes)
Random guy bending out of shape:
The truth is, India isn’t rich enough to be a welfare state
January 24, 2019, 12:49 PM IST Chaitanya Kalbag in The Needle's Eye, Economy, ET
And of course the high praise for welfarism if done by non-BJP administrations:
Shilling for AAP in Delhi:
Delhi and the triumph of welfarism
Congress counters nationalism with welfarism
Summary: if you are an Indian liberal, applaud the success of even your political anathema, if it is valid instead of contortionist articles and label affixing!! Did not work in 2019 or till date
Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1
Indeed hnair. A lot of articles meant for western consumption forgets that the left and right of political economy in India are the reverse of the west. The Jana Sangh and BJP's integral humanism was fundamentally against rampant individualism, and instead sought a collective identity around Hinduism. The Indian 'left' on the other hand has fundamentally elitist roots. 'Welfare' for them is their hook to keep the masses sated just enough to vote for them. I can't be bothered to read the phoren articles quoted above; their titles and their timelines - right before GE2019 - make them sound laughable in retrospect
If one wants to dabble in high funda pol sci terms:
Congress: Democratic socialism
On this forum we have very few posters who live in mainland Europe and are deeply familiar with Christian Democratic parties. Most of our perspectives of the west are related to Anglo-Saxon politics, where such parties are not popular. Neither the US nor UK have such parties. On the other hand, Germany has been led by the Christian Democrats for most of its post war years. Angela Merkel is the current CDU leader. Helmut Kohl, Ludwig Erhard and their first postwar Chancellor Adenauer were all Christian Democrats.
In my view, any 'English language portrayal' of the BJP needs to express the clear similarity between the BJP and the CDU-SPD. The two entities are near mirror images in many ways politically. The Indian English press has a pronounced tendency to compare the BJP to Anglo-Saxon politics, where Christian Democracy is not a major force. Mainland European politics though is dominated by Christian Democrats / Social Democrats. Almost every major north/central European country has strong CD/SD presence.
If one wants to dabble in high funda pol sci terms:
Congress: Democratic socialism
BJP: Hindu version of Christian democracy with elements of social democracyDemocratic socialism is a political philosophy supporting political democracy within a socially owned economy,[1] with a particular emphasis on economic democracy, workplace democracy and workers' self-management[2] within a market socialist economy or some form of a decentralised planned socialist economy.
In effect both parties are economically left of center, with the distinction that BJP seeks its social mission as enabling entrepreneurs and the INC maintains a very distinctive cult of personality and dependence around a political family.In practice, Christian democracy is often considered centre-right on cultural, social and moral issues, but centre-left "with respect to economic and labor issues, civil rights, and foreign policy" as well as the environment.[7][nb 3] Christian democrats support a social market economy.
On this forum we have very few posters who live in mainland Europe and are deeply familiar with Christian Democratic parties. Most of our perspectives of the west are related to Anglo-Saxon politics, where such parties are not popular. Neither the US nor UK have such parties. On the other hand, Germany has been led by the Christian Democrats for most of its post war years. Angela Merkel is the current CDU leader. Helmut Kohl, Ludwig Erhard and their first postwar Chancellor Adenauer were all Christian Democrats.
In my view, any 'English language portrayal' of the BJP needs to express the clear similarity between the BJP and the CDU-SPD. The two entities are near mirror images in many ways politically. The Indian English press has a pronounced tendency to compare the BJP to Anglo-Saxon politics, where Christian Democracy is not a major force. Mainland European politics though is dominated by Christian Democrats / Social Democrats. Almost every major north/central European country has strong CD/SD presence.
Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1
https://www.opindia.com/2020/12/new-zea ... -in-india/
New Zealand: Indian origin Radio host stabbed by assailants after he supported the new farm laws in India, in critical condition
New Zealand: Indian origin Radio host stabbed by assailants after he supported the new farm laws in India, in critical condition
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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1
It is these people who need our help.
I will be happy to contribute.
I will be happy to contribute.
Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1
too bad that the vik wasn't available
Marya Shakil@maryashakil· 1h
News coming in that Cong leader Rahul Gandhi has left for Milan via a Qatar Airlines flight this morning.
3:34 PM · Dec 27, 2020
Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1
^^ He is probably meeting his handlers like George Soros on what to do next
Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1
he needs not only a dummy remote controlled PM, he also needs a dummy remote controlled congi president so that he has all the authority and none of the responsibility.vijayk wrote:^^ He is probably meeting his handlers like George Soros on what to do next
the khujliwal model, already tried and tested
Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1
hoping to provoke a state reaction so that the "farmers" can scale up the violence to the next level and blame the govt for suppressing dissent.
amarinder is openly running with the hares while he has given up even the shallow pretence of hunting with the hounds
amarinder is openly running with the hares while he has given up even the shallow pretence of hunting with the hounds
ThePrintIndia@ThePrintIndia · 3h
CM Amarinder Singh’s appeal fails, 150 more telecom towers destroyed by protesting farmers