India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 01 Sep 2020 02:04

Shiv Aroor is reporting that it is not a single location or unit which is involved in the latest incidents and that the situation is tense on the southern bank of Pangong Tso.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 01 Sep 2020 02:11

500 Chinese troops had tried to cross into Spanggur, a narrow valley near the village of Chushul and three hours of hand-to-hand combat ensued.

Indians took a Chinese military camp.

When China plays indignant, it means Indians are killing Chinese.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 01 Sep 2020 02:13

To have a lasting closure, two things are needed.

1. Take back Akshay Hind and can later swap it for Kailash and Manosarovar if we so choose.
2. On the Western front, GB needs to be taken back and appropriate inflation adjusted transit and transit visa charges collected on any living or non living thing that moves over CPEC.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 01 Sep 2020 02:15

Just to get a sense of how strategic holding Black Top might be, here are some panoramic views from the top (from Google Earth 3D)

View of Spanggur Tso
Chinese Jeep Trail on the Spur
View of Rezang La - Will also be able to observe air traffic flying south out of Nyoma
Chushul from Black Top
Pangong Tso -Indian side
Pangong Tso - Chinese side

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 01 Sep 2020 02:20

Rakesh wrote:
Iyersan wrote: Do we in BR know Col. Purie to give authentic information?
Just clicked on the tweet link. Another twitter user asked him on the "type" of fire. He stated he is awaiting confirmation.

Yah'Allah, I'm almost wishing for return of the good old days of Burkha bibi giving us live updates on location on the ops

Now we have to make do with hyper tweets from random handles, mush good information age is doing us

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Sep 2020 02:21

I had tweeted earlier in the day:

Happy Onam!!! Mahabali has returned!!!

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 01 Sep 2020 02:29

Baba ji had a cryptic tweet on Aug27th (it had a picture which showed a progress wheel saying 65% loading) hope we have not reached 80% yet

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 01 Sep 2020 02:42

k prasad wrote:Just to get a sense of how strategic holding Black Top might be, here are some panoramic views from the top (from Google Earth 3D)

View of Spanggur Tso
Chinese Jeep Trail on the Spur
View of Rezang La - Will also be able to observe air traffic flying south out of Nyoma
Chushul from Black Top
Pangong Tso -Indian side
Pangong Tso - Chinese side

If we really have captured black top (ad that location is correct) then the PLA is practically done in the south bank Pangong So, plus with the reports of capturing Reqin, the huge PLA force (they probably have as many as they have in the north shore of Pangong So, probably an entire brigade) is essentially boxed in from 2/3 sides, they have to break out or retreat and abandon the whole lake (all armchair giri from my end

).

Jayram · Post by **Jayram** » 01 Sep 2020 02:47

Same as above and here https://twitter.com/nitingokhale/status ... 8213060608 If this is true then then the game has tilted in our favour. We have a strong card we need to restore status quo ante with out requiring an escalation. The Chinese seem to have over played thier hand and we were ready and waiting. Well Done IA. Of course this could play out similarly all along the LAC as well and we need the stamina match or preempt the Chinese step by step. Some we will lose but this is a big one.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 01 Sep 2020 02:52

^^^
Abhik-saar, I based the location of Black top from the map above.

Capturing black top only gives us better situational awareness, and maybe reduces PLA ability to gain similar levels of situational awareness on our positions. The advantage will only accrue to us if we continue to hold it, and actually manage to use if things go full-scale kinetic. More likely, what will happen is either we use this as a bargaining chip to force Chinese withdrawal from places they've ingressed into (Gogra, Raki Nalla, Depsang, Pangong), and similarly withdraw from our territorial gains.

Or, there's a decision made to hold on to black top, and the spur to black top leading from Thukang in exchange for losing some of the fingers... But at this point, its all speculation-giri.

Ashokk · Post by **Ashokk** » 01 Sep 2020 02:58

Army thwarts PLA bid to seize heights near Pangong

NEW DELHI: In yet another sharp escalation in the ongoing military confrontation in eastern Ladakh since early-May, Indian soldiers thwarted an attempt by Chinese troops to occupy some heights near the southern bank of Pangong Tso on Saturday night.
The “provocative military movements” by the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) aimed at seizing the heights in the Chushul sector, broadly between Pangong Tso and Spanggur Gap, were physically blocked by the swift deployment of Indian troops in the region at an altitude of around 15,000-feet.
“The pre-emptive action taken by our troops from the nearby Thakung and other posts foreclosed the PLA’s options to change the status quo (existing arrangement where perceptions of the Line of Actual Control overlap) in the area,” said a senior officer.
“Our troops completed their deployment in adequate numbers, with all the requisite equipment, to occupy the previously unoccupied dominating heights within our perception of the LAC by Sunday morning,” he added.
The Army said there were no violent clashes in the intervening night of Saturday and Sunday, as were witnessed during the extended bloody skirmish in the Galwan Valley on June 15.
But some sources said there were physical scuffles between the rival soldiers during the incident. The Indian troops involved in the action, incidentally, included commandos from the covert Special Frontier Force, which recruits from among the Tibetans exiled in India.
If the Indian Army had not undertaken the pro-active military manoeuver, it would have been presented with a fait accompli like on the northern bank of Pangong Tso, Gogra and Depsang areas, from where the PLA has refused to withdraw from what India considers its territory.
There is also little doubt that the PLA attempt to open a new front on Saturday, in keeping with its strategy to push the LAC westwards, was sanctioned by the top Chinese politico-military hierarchy, much like the multiple intrusions deep into Indian territory in early-May. “Military commanders at the tactical level cannot take such decisions,” said another officer.
Though India was initially caught off-guard by the well-planned multiple PLA intrusions four months ago, this time around the Army was better prepared. The movement of “a large column” of around 200 PLA troops was detected by radars and night-vision equipment deployed in the area before midnight on Saturday.
Around 100 PLA soldiers, with equipment to set up camps, were also spotted below the `Black Top Hill’, which in turn led the Indian Army’s to respond in a “quid pro quo” manner.
The PLA is obviously upset. It accused the Indian troops of “undermining” the consensus reached at the multi-level talks by “illegally” crossing the LAC to “seriously violate” China’s territorial sovereignty.
The Indian Army, however, said it was actually the PLA which had violated the consensus by carrying out provocative military movements. “Indian troops preempted this PLA activity on the southern bank of Pangong Tso Lake, undertook measures to strengthen our positions and thwart Chinese intentions to unilaterally change facts on ground,” said Army spokesperson Colonel Aman Anand.
“The Indian Army is committed to maintaining peace and tranquility through dialogue, but is also equally determined to protect its territorial integrity,” he added.
A flag meeting between the rival brigade commanders was held at the Chushul-Moldo border personnel meeting point on Monday. The over five-hour long meeting discussed measures to reduce the heightened tensions in the area.
The two armies continue to be locked in the prolonged face-off on the northern bank of the Pangong Tso, where over 3,000 PLA troops have refused to withdraw eastwards from the 8-km stretch they have occupied from `Finger-4’ to `Finger-8’ (mountainous spurs jutting into the lake) after building scores of new fortifications and gun positions in the area since early-May, as was reported by TOI earlier.
Several rounds of diplomatic and military talks have so far failed to break the deadlock in the stalled troop disengagement at Pangong Tso and Gogra as well as de-escalation in the rival military build-ups in the strategically-located Depsang-Daulat Beg Oldie (DBO) sector.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 01 Sep 2020 03:32

Per Telegraph India, IA has "occupied" a Chinese camp.

Now, towards the east of Black Top there is a pass that connect the Pangang Tso with the Spanggur Tso. There is a track across this pass that connects the southern bank of Pangang Tso with the Chinese base at Spanggur gap general area.

Just at the top of this pass that connects the two lakes is what seems to be a Chinese camp. Very likely this is the Chinese camp that the Telegraph claims has been captured by the IA.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 01 Sep 2020 03:38

For Reference: Area map supposed to be from the Indian Army.

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 2013598721

Indian Army's map of LAC along Pangong Tso southern bank and Spangur Tso
via @reportersujan

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 01 Sep 2020 04:01

Btw, IFFFF India has occupied the Black Top then it HAS crossed the LAC at that point by about 1.5 km and IFFFF it has captured the Chinese camp at the top of the pass next door then it is ~ 3 km across the LAC.

BUT, there is something else ...
https://twitter.com/ananthkrishnan/stat ... 1672213504

Ananth Krishnan @ananthkrishnan

The PLA statement says the Indian military on August 31 (today) 'illegally crossed' the LAC at the south bank of Pangong Lake and near Rezang La, and 'seriously violated China's sovereignty'

Rezang La crossing is acknowledged by the Chinese but if Black Top too has been taken then India has crossed the Chinese LAC at 2 points already. Crook-Low is lying it seems when he credits 2 intrusion to China and 1 to India.

Added later: When the gobermint says ...
https://twitter.com/sidhant/status/1300437050496184320

The Chinese movement started around midnight on 29th Aug and they had planned to occupy areas on Southern Bank of Pangong lake by morning: Indian govt sources

Means that some action has occurred to the north of the Spanggur gap too, very likely the Black Top if not the Chinese camp at the pass next to it is in the hands of IA.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 01 Sep 2020 04:10

The full version of events haven’t been released and those who know haven’t fully released it. It looks like what happened was the culmination of events/provocations over a week.

What has been demonstrated are plans in place since May/June. The plans are highly intensive on SF community.

Will reveal more at the right time

idan · Post by **idan** » 01 Sep 2020 04:15

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/china-r ... topstories

If J-20s are supposed to be stealth, how is it that mainstream media is able to detect them?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Sep 2020 04:29

Jayram wrote:Same as above and here https://twitter.com/nitingokhale/status ... 8213060608 If this is true then then the game has tilted in our favour. We have a strong card we need to restore status quo ante with out requiring an escalation. The Chinese seem to have over played thier hand and we were ready and waiting. Well Done IA. Of course this could play out similarly all along the LAC as well and we need the stamina match or preempt the Chinese step by step. Some we will lose but this is a big one.

India is ready for escalation to any level.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Sep 2020 04:30

Folks can we start using #IndoChinaSea from now onwards.

#NoSouthChina Sea

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 01 Sep 2020 04:52

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/0 ... ce-erupts/

India captures Chinese camp in disputed Ladakh as violence erupts again between superpowers

Indian troops have captured an important Chinese military post after allegedly fighting off an attempt by the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) to occupy further Indian territory in the disputed border region of Ladakh.

On Saturday evening, around 500 Chinese troops had tried to cross into Spanggur, a narrow valley near the village of Chushul and three hours of hand-to-hand combat ensued.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 01 Sep 2020 05:43

Tx.Ramanna! I've been advocating it for years!....and PRC.China means Taiwan!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Sep 2020 06:09

Philip wrote:Tx.Ramanna! I've been advocating it for years!....and PRC.China means Taiwan!

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 01 Sep 2020 06:23

ramana wrote:
Jayram wrote:Same as above and here https://twitter.com/nitingokhale/status ... 8213060608 If this is true then then the game has tilted in our favour. We have a strong card we need to restore status quo ante with out requiring an escalation. The Chinese seem to have over played thier hand and we were ready and waiting. Well Done IA. Of course this could play out similarly all along the LAC as well and we need the stamina match or preempt the Chinese step by step. Some we will lose but this is a big one.
India is ready for escalation to any level.

This is good and India should turn the screws a notch higher. So far China has dictated the pace of all events and was/is planning for a war that would be to its advantage ie Try to time it during or after the US elections hoping that Dem's would win and withdraw the US Navy fleet from South and East china sea and leave India pretty much on its own.

It is to India's advantage to upset this calculus and give Trump an excuse that he needs.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 01 Sep 2020 07:01

Chatter on chinese forums is that dozens of their officers/soldiers have been captured by our boys.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 01 Sep 2020 07:35

k prasad wrote:Or, there's a decision made to hold on to black top, and the spur to black top leading from Thukang in exchange for losing some of the fingers... But at this point, its all speculation-giri.

We shouldn't withdraw - isn't Black Top within our side of the LAC anyway? As long as there are differing perceptions of the LAC in the area (Pangong and points south), we should occupy and hold whatever we can. As Nitin Gokhale tweeted, the IA hasn't crossed the LAC, but occupied points to pre-empt PLA attempts to change the LAC. We should use that to our advantage. If those areas are within the Chinese perception of the LAC, too bad.

Y I Patel · Post by **Y I Patel** » 01 Sep 2020 08:08

pankajs wrote:Per Telegraph India, IA has "occupied" a Chinese camp.

Now, towards the east of Black Top there is a pass that connect the Pangang Tso with the Spanggur Tso. There is a track across this pass that connects the southern bank of Pangang Tso with the Chinese base at Spanggur gap general area.

Just at the top of this pass that connects the two lakes is what seems to be a Chinese camp. Very likely this is the Chinese camp that the Telegraph claims has been captured by the IA.

That pass is Yula La. Yula faces Thakung. In 1962, Sirijap and Yula were the two shoulders of Indian positions on either side of Pangong Tso.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Sep 2020 08:09

About 30? Quite a few are trapped in some area.

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 01 Sep 2020 08:11

https://www.livemint.com/news/world/chi ... 68460.html
China can make India suffer 'severe' military losses - Chinese mouthpiece
Updated: 01 Sep 2020, 05:54 AM IST
Indian forces foiled an attempt by Chinese troops to occupy a hill on the Asian giants’ disputed border in the western Himalayas
China is able to make India suffer more severe military losses than in the past if it wants to engage in competition, state-backed newspaper Global Times said on Tuesday, after a fresh border flare-up between the two nuclear-armed countries.
Indian forces foiled an attempt by Chinese troops to occupy a hill on the Asian giants’ disputed border in the western Himalayas, officials in New Delhi said on Monday.
On the same day, China's military spokesman demanded India withdraw troops that Beijing said had illegally crossed their shared border. China's foreign ministry said Chinese border troops had not crossed the line of actual control.
"India ... said it preempted Chinese military activity," the Global Times said in an editorial. "The word 'preempt' shows it was the Indian troops that first took destructive actions, and the Indian troops initiated the standoff this time."
It added that India faced a "powerful China" and that New Delhi should not have any "illusions" of support from Washington over the issue.
"But if India wants to engage in competition, China has more tools and capability than India. If India would like a military showdown, the PLA (People's Liberation Army) is bound to make the Indian army suffer much more severe losses than it did in 1962."
The Global Times is published by the People's Daily, the official newspaper of China's ruling Communist Party.
......
Gautam

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 01 Sep 2020 08:17

idan wrote:https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/china-r ... topstories

If J-20s are supposed to be stealth, how is it that mainstream media is able to detect them?

So now you know the quality of their stealth. We don't need radars, even our media can detect it.

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 01 Sep 2020 08:25

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 9613540353

Davidrock · Post by **Davidrock** » 01 Sep 2020 08:28

pankajs wrote:Btw, IFFFF India has occupied the Black Top then it HAS crossed the LAC at that point by about 1.5 km and IFFFF it has captured the Chinese camp at the top of the pass next door then it is ~ 3 km across the LAC.

Well, we the Indian perception of LAC is far beyond. But yes, we have surely captured unheld positions now.
It will be interesting to see when last we held these positions, 10-20 years back or first time since 1962 ?

China has just 30-45 days to escalate, still face heavy casualties. Lets see how they respond.
Will be interesting to see if we really captured 20 odd PLA troops and if it can be used to delay PLA action will winter sets in in November.

We should use this time to construct access to these heights and reinforce our position so when next summer comes, they are in no position to take it.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Sep 2020 08:41

g.sarkar wrote:https://www.livemint.com/news/world/chi ... 68460.html
China can make India suffer 'severe' military losses - Chinese mouthpiece
Updated: 01 Sep 2020, 05:54 AM IST
Indian forces foiled an attempt by Chinese troops to occupy a hill on the Asian giants’ disputed border in the western Himalayas
China is able to make India suffer more severe military losses than in the past if it wants to engage in competition, state-backed newspaper Global Times said on Tuesday, after a fresh border flare-up between the two nuclear-armed countries.
Indian forces foiled an attempt by Chinese troops to occupy a hill on the Asian giants’ disputed border in the western Himalayas, officials in New Delhi said on Monday.
On the same day, China's military spokesman demanded India withdraw troops that Beijing said had illegally crossed their shared border. China's foreign ministry said Chinese border troops had not crossed the line of actual control.
"India ... said it preempted Chinese military activity," the Global Times said in an editorial. "The word 'preempt' shows it was the Indian troops that first took destructive actions, and the Indian troops initiated the standoff this time."
It added that India faced a "powerful China" and that New Delhi should not have any "illusions" of support from Washington over the issue.
"But if India wants to engage in competition, China has more tools and capability than India. If India would like a military showdown, the PLA (People's Liberation Army) is bound to make the Indian army suffer much more severe losses than it did in 1962."
The Global Times is published by the People's Daily, the official newspaper of China's ruling Communist Party.
......
Gautam

Usually the Chinese government psyches up their morale with such stuff before attacking. Only tgis time they got repulsed before rh2ey could damage.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 01 Sep 2020 08:43

A request : would posters mind please categorizing Chinese news report by
1. Source
2. Statement

Specifically it would help to organize these using use of language. For example ‘solemn request’ , ‘must vacate XYZ’, ‘can make India suffer’. These are all clearly telegraphed statements indicating a significant reversal or unexpected failure in their part. Please list date of article too .

The reason for asking this is that over the past days / weeks, the Chinese have been telegraphing the nature of their relative position thru the tone of their utterances. By being too emotional we may not be parsing the language carefully , and that is a mistake .

Punjabi · Post by **Punjabi** » 01 Sep 2020 08:44

Re strategy, our Indian 'Vinamrta' does not work with these folks. Having worked with many of them in the US over last 30 years in different professions, forums etc. behind that 'Smile' is a cold, calculating, contempt for Indians. Doing what they do to you is what they understand. They'' threaten with all kinds of crap over the next 90 days and escalate in many different ways...I am counting on NaMo and team being the IronMan and stare these folks down. NO kindness of 'giving them Facesavers'...If they feel humiliated, so be it. Let the world see when rest of the world esp. Europeans did nothing, India stood on its own and stared them down...Only then the world will respect us... WIshing our security forces good luck and safety. Bharat Mata Ki Jai...Long Live India.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 01 Sep 2020 08:47

vijayk wrote:
amar_p wrote:Laaton ke bhoot....
??

Baaton sey nahi maantey...

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 01 Sep 2020 08:51

Suraj wrote:A request : would posters mind please categorizing Chinese news report by
1. Source
2. Statement

Specifically it would help to organize these using use of language. For example ‘solemn request’ , ‘must vacate XYZ’, ‘can make India suffer’. These are all clearly telegraphed statements indicating a significant reversal or unexpected failure in their part. Please list date of article too .

The reason for asking this is that over the past days / weeks, the Chinese have been telegraphing the nature of their relative position thru the tone of their utterances. By being too emotional we may not be parsing the language carefully , and that is a mistake .

+1

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 01 Sep 2020 09:07

If indeed we are occupying Black Top, Helmet and the feature near Reqin then my reading is that their positions on the south bank of Pangang Tso are untenable. There is one more feature (height 18070 Feet) between Black Top and the lake. This is across the Ridgeline from Black Top. if that feature is also held by us then even their positions across from Finger 4-8 and Sirijap are venerable.

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 01 Sep 2020 09:19

abhik wrote: If we really have captured black top (ad that location is correct) then the PLA is practically done in the south bank Pangong So, plus with the reports of capturing Reqin, the huge PLA force (they probably have as many as they have in the north shore of Pangong So, probably an entire brigade) is essentially boxed in from 2/3 sides, they have to break out or retreat and abandon the whole lake (all armchair giri from my end ).

If they retreat now, what happens to the South China Sea islands that they built? What happens to the occupation of Taiwan? What happens to the dream of replacing the US as number one? A defeat from India now, or even a draw will show everyone that their military is weak, their weapons are bogus. And pinups of their chikna girly soldiers will adorn bars every where. Every one is watching the conflict and drawing their conclusions. They have won in Hong Kong for now, but they will have to pay an economic price even for that.
Gautam

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 01 Sep 2020 09:20

arshyam wrote:
k prasad wrote:Or, there's a decision made to hold on to black top, and the spur to black top leading from Thukang in exchange for losing some of the fingers... But at this point, its all speculation-giri.
We shouldn't withdraw - isn't Black Top within our side of the LAC anyway? As long as there are differing perceptions of the LAC in the area (Pangong and points south), we should occupy and hold whatever we can. As Nitin Gokhale tweeted, the IA hasn't crossed the LAC, but occupied points to pre-empt PLA attempts to change the LAC. We should use that to our advantage. If those areas are within the Chinese perception of the LAC, too bad.

If it is on our side of the LAC, then hell yeah, hold it, keep it, man it! However, I'm referring to territory we have occupied beyond our perceived LAC as a tactical occupation for leverage, like we did in 2013 (which is what got the Chinese to finally get out of the Depsang area they were holding). That sort of occupation won't be publicized loudly, because leaving it will be hard to do once the public knows and clamours for us to hold it.

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 01 Sep 2020 09:29

Going by Vishnu Som's twitt (https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 9613540353) and various reports about capturing black top

1. India shifted Chinese persaption of LAC toward bank of Spanggur Tso
2. That even covers meeting spot of Lt Gens at Chinese side. Lat: 33°33'57.73"N Lng: 78°47'28.58"E
3. There is a chinese surveillance post S301 (?) (https://twitter.com/bishwa55900127/stat ... 2357536771), now we can observe from ridgeline on the hill alongside Reqin with naked eyes.

-Ankit

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 01 Sep 2020 09:54

Pangong south bank new flashpoint: India says took measures to thwart China

...
The meeting, sources said, was “stormy” though both commanders agreed to continue the talks on Tuesday. The talks were held after a flurry of calls on the military hotline between the two sides on Sunday, sources said.
...
Details of what exactly transpired are sketchy, but sources said Indian troops had moved in to occupy dominating heights on its side of the LAC on the intervening night of Saturday and Sunday on the south bank of Pangong Tso, after ISR (intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance) reports suggested a PLA move to occupy the same areas.

These heights are also claimed by the Chinese, as lying on their side of the LAC.

Indian troops, sources said, have positioned themselves at a more advantageous location to prevent Chinese troops from coming in. The area, east of Thakung base, has always been under Indian control and is west of the Indian perception of the LAC, the sources said.

The area has seen few transgressions by PLA troops even earlier, primarily because the area is heavily defended by Indian troops deployed at posts close to the LAC. This is unlike the northern bank where the contentious area was not occupied by the Indian side but was only patrolled. Sources said a new attempt by the Chinese to push towards Finger 3 has also been repulsed by the Indian Army.
...