Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

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vivek_ahuja
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by vivek_ahuja »

John wrote:The missiles are completely two different classes, Apache’s carry them in wingtip so need a lighter missile where as LCH which cannot do that has to use it’s pylons to carry AAM so it’s better to use heavier a missile. Mistral is not man portable missile (requires a tripod) and weights around 20kg twice as much as Stinger.

It will interesting if we integrate something along the lines of R-73 for Apache and fire them from the pylons, as Russians do use it from Mi-28.
Payload is still at a premium at the high altitudes where the LCH is expected to operate. If working in a counter-UAV mode at that altitude, the lighter the AAM, the better.

That said, I am not in favor of the stinger for other strategic reasons. It is yet another munition that has been added to the diverse zoo of munitions in the indian inventory. This essentially guarantees massive inefficiencies during wartime, when separate supply lines will have to be maintained for separate weapon platforms, even if they are operating together. I can just see the scenario where fully operational LCHs will be awaiting munitions to catch up at a base while fully stocked Hellfires and Stingers are sitting nearby unable to be mated with them. Reverse situation for the Apaches as well.
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by brar_w »

John wrote: It will interesting if we integrate something along the lines of R-73 for Apache and fire them from the pylons, as Russians do use it from Mi-28.
The AIM-9 is integrated with the Apache. But the IAF contract for the AH-64 did not include either the AIM-9 nor the APKWSII so its just Stingers for air-air as of now. APKWSII capability is being expanded for air-air against UAV and cruise missiles so that capability would have come in handy against the low flying drones.
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by John »

brar_w wrote:
John wrote: It will interesting if we integrate something along the lines of R-73 for Apache and fire them from the pylons, as Russians do use it from Mi-28.
The AIM-9 is integrated with the Apache. But the IAF contract for the AH-64 did not include either the AIM-9 nor the APKWSII so its just Stingers for air-air as of now. APKWSII capability is being expanded for air-air against UAV and cruise missiles so that capability would have come in handy against the low flying drones.
Thanks brar can’t FZ275 LGR be used in a similar manner to defeat UAVs ? The laser guided rockets are listed as being compatible but don’t think we procured them yet.

https://fz.be/lch-light-combat-helicopter
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by brar_w »

Don't know exactly but APKWS II was upgraded (software) and this capability was tested before it being cleared for C-UAS and C-FAC. They've even demonstrated a Cruise Missile Defense mission using it when launching it from an F-16. So technically is should be possible to do that with other similar systems but then someone has to develop, and test the capability..

https://sldinfo.com/2020/04/usaf-works- ... s-rockets/
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by RKumar »

Seems like Apache thread than LCH :wink:
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by ramana »

Yes folks get carried away.
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by Yagnasri »

Not using Airforce within the country is a policy decision taken by GoI long long back.
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by YashG »

Dr Anantha Krishnan Muralidharan Nair @writetake

In Rajya Sabha

4 LSP #LUHs (2 for
@adgpi
& 2 for
@IAF_MCC
) would be manufactured by 2022-23 and 8 LSP LUHs (4 for Army and 4 for IAF) by 2023-24. This would be followed by manufacture of Series Production helicopters by HAL.

@tarmakmedia
https://twitter.com/writetake/status/14 ... 7175385093

No LCH contract likely anytime soon.
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by kit »

Yagnasri wrote:Not using Airforce within the country is a policy decision taken by GoI long long back.
create a national air guard with suitable assets for counter insurgency., the bsf could be given a wider mandate
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by Brad Goodman »

Yagnasri wrote:Not using Airforce within the country is a policy decision taken by GoI long long back.
We cannot have redlines defined forever. Everything needs to be revisited with current capabilities and challenges and suitably redesigned
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by k prasad »

Brad Goodman wrote:
Yagnasri wrote:Not using Airforce within the country is a policy decision taken by GoI long long back.
We cannot have redlines defined forever. Everything needs to be revisited with current capabilities and challenges and suitably redesigned
Beyond the self-drawn policy red lines, There is also a political and diplomacy-oriented element to this policy. Using fixed-wing aircraft (or even armed helos) against internal armed groups has not that great optics at the international level. It suggests a level of instability that is more commonly seen in countries dealing with government-threatening insurgencies, and suggests it is serious enough that it cannot be handled by ground forces.

Plus, it provides excellent fodder for the human rights squads.

More likely we'll see use of armed transport helos, maybe a rudra light, but more likely, armed drones. That would largely keep things a little quieter, more under-the-radar.

We definitely could be using aerial assets more extensively for situational awareness and surveillance though.
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by ramana »

RAF was used against tribals in tribal NWFP.
To use military force against own civilians will lead to disaster.
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by ramana »

12 LUH is LSP production. Series production after this.
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by VinodTK »

India closes in on maritime helicopter export to the Philippines
By Ajai Shukla
HAL, Bengaluru
Business Standard, 1st Dec 21
Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopters (ALH) and eight Dornier 228 aircraft,
The Philippines contracts will be worth a record Rs 3,000 crore, India’s largest-ever export of defence equipment. If both aircraft perform well and deliver high serviceability rates, further export orders could follow.
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by Prem Kumar »

This is an across-the-board kind of news. But posting it here:

https://twitter.com/manupubby/status/14 ... 6266004482

Negative import list: MoD exempts emergency items

Its an elephant sized hole in our quest for Armanirbhar!
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by vivek_ahuja »

Prem Kumar wrote:Negative import list: MoD exempts emergency items

Its an elephant sized hole in our quest for Armanirbhar!
It really is. Posting the relevant dangerous quote from the article:
"In the event the domestic industry is not able to supply equipment in the stipulated time-frame or quantity, or where there are inadequacies in the equipment affecting safety of troops, or in case of any other technical issues...specific cases for import could be taken up to meet immediate requirement, based on the recommendations of Defence lndigenisation Committee (DIC)," the ministry said in a notification.

Read more at:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com//n ... aign=cppst
Given our past experience with this kind of stuff, I think we all know where and how this flexibility is going to be invoked. The statement about time-frame and quantity is particularly important, because the small order numbers given in piecemeal orders ensure that production in quantity within short time frames will always be an issue with local MIC. Technical issues could be used for anything from "LCH does not have ATGM" to anything else as needed on a case-by-case basis.

It also means the negative import list has little weight when push comes to shove.

Say goodbye to 160+ LCHs and the LCA in large numbers.
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by Rakesh »

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/AritraN050996/statu ... 55969?s=20 ---> Seen here is the new LCH wearing the Army Colors.

Image
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by Kersi D »

John wrote:
brar_w wrote:Perhaps they thought Stinger was less future proof? The US Army is finally ending Stinger production in the near term, and its replacement will begin fielding by 2026.

https://aviationweek.com/special-topics ... eplacement
The missiles are completely two different classes, Apache’s carry them in wingtip so need a lighter missile where as LCH which cannot do that has to use it’s pylons to carry AAM so it’s better to use heavier a missile. Mistral is not man portable missile (requires a tripod) and weights around 20kg twice as much as Stinger.

It will interesting if we integrate something along the lines of R-73 for Apache and fire them from the pylons, as Russians do use it from Mi-28.
Just thinking aloud
Why not
MICA ?
Astra Mk1/2/3 ?
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by LakshmanPST »

https://twitter.com/TheDailyPioneer/sta ... CYzWg&s=19
#BREAKING: Cabinet Committee on Security approves procurement of 15 Light Combat Helicopters (LCH) at the cost of Rs 3,887 crore: Defence ministry. #LightCombatHelicopters #Defence
With CCS approval, I guess only signing of orders is pending...
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by basant »

IIRC, two of these have already been deployed near China border. And some were sitting idle.
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by YashG »

LakshmanPST wrote:https://twitter.com/TheDailyPioneer/sta ... CYzWg&s=19
#BREAKING: Cabinet Committee on Security approves procurement of 15 Light Combat Helicopters (LCH) at the cost of Rs 3,887 crore: Defence ministry. #LightCombatHelicopters #Defence
With CCS approval, I guess only signing of orders is pending...
15? this is LSP order. Everytime this thread goes up - I hope to read the news about 100 LCH orders.
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by Pratyush »

LakshmanPST wrote:https://twitter.com/TheDailyPioneer/sta ... CYzWg&s=19
#BREAKING: Cabinet Committee on Security approves procurement of 15 Light Combat Helicopters (LCH) at the cost of Rs 3,887 crore: Defence ministry. #LightCombatHelicopters #Defence


With CCS approval, I guess only signing of orders is pending...
Why not have a multi year procurement program. Removes budget uncertainty and assures the supply chain that they are secured for x numbers of years.
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by jaysimha »

Image
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by nits »

Just 15... bas :oops: :oops: :cry:
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by sanjayc »

Centre approves procurement of 15 indigenous light combat helicopters from HAL
The light combat helicopter Limited Series Production is an indigenously designed, developed and manufactured modern combat helicopter. The production cost incurred is ₹3,887 crore along with infrastructure sanctions to the tune of ₹377 crore.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 55648.html
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by bala »

Where do you get attack/combat Helos for ~$4 mil costs in the world? Once again the Army is taking the lead in procurement. HAL is really strong in Helos and must be supported to the hilt. Over time these Helos should provide sufficient firepower needed for surprise strikes and tank columns.
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by sajaym »

nits wrote:Just 15... bas :oops: :oops: :cry:
Quoting a post from the LCA thread long time back...

Limited Series Production" aircraft used to standardize production.

Which is also why they are in different ICY categories. Standardization is achieved over each aircraft manufactured.

Its only when standardization of production has been achieved over these 40 orders that mass production can really begin.
Artharth...in Limited Series Production only a limited number of units are built to fine tune production. So when only few are being built, how can you order more, Hainji?
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by ArjunPandit »

nits wrote:Just 15... bas :oops: :oops: :cry:
total apache are 40 in no. the no. of MI 35 is also not very high. This is in the phase of FOC, the expected order book is 114 for IA and 65. It will come in due time.
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by V_Raman »

I dont get why IAF needs attack helos - arent they needed mainly for IA?
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by k prasad »

bala wrote:Where do you get attack/combat Helos for ~$4 mil costs in the world? Once again the Army is taking the lead in procurement. HAL is really strong in Helos and must be supported to the hilt. Over time these Helos should provide sufficient firepower needed for surprise strikes and tank columns.
Saar... ₹3,887 crore is about $518 million, so per unit cost is about $34 million, not $4 million.

This is still in line with the procurement costs of other attack helos in the same class, and about 20-70% cheaper than the Apaches (which, to be fair, are pack more capability due to their class). The AH-1Z at about $30 mil, Mi-25 for about $36 mil, Rooivalk for about $40 mil, Eurocopter Tigre for ~$39 mil.

That said, economies of scale with increased orders should drop the per-unit price by a fair bit once large-scale orders come in.

V_Raman wrote:I dont get why IAF needs attack helos - arent they needed mainly for IA?
A decade or so ago, the reverse question was being fought between IAF and AAC... why does Army need attack helos.

I guess this points to some evolution in the discourse? There can be a potential use for attack helos by the IAF for operations not directly tied to ground assault & support, such as in SEAD/DEAD roles, etc., where closer integration with IACCS and other ELINT assets might be useful.

However, I suspect that there will be much back-and-forth until we get to the point where there's a clear demarcation of roles, responsibilities, and consequently, hardware. Theaterization will probably mitigate some of this tension.
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by bala »

k prasad wrote: Saar... ₹3,887 crore is about $518 million, so per unit cost is about $34 million, not $4 million.
Right ooops missed the zero part of 40 million. But I think HAL is cheaper than imports and for large volumes would be even cheaper.
a clear demarcation of roles, responsibilities, and consequently, hardware. Theaterization will probably mitigate some of this tension.
India does not have a marines unit. The marines would require an assortment of weapons.
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by Atmavik »

IA has a brigade dedicated for amphibious landings. They are based in Andaman Islands
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by ks_sachin »

Atmavik wrote:IA has a brigade dedicated for amphibious landings. They are based in Andaman Islands
54 Div is tasked for an amphibious role. The problem though is the formation is amphibious ops but it is not a specialisation for the inf bns who rotate ina and out of the div.
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by KSingh »

k prasad wrote:
bala wrote:Where do you get attack/combat Helos for ~$4 mil costs in the world? Once again the Army is taking the lead in procurement. HAL is really strong in Helos and must be supported to the hilt. Over time these Helos should provide sufficient firepower needed for surprise strikes and tank columns.
Saar... ₹3,887 crore is about $518 million, so per unit cost is about $34 million, not $4 million. .
That doesn’t really work I’m afraid as this is a package deal that includes training, infrastructure, support etc (PBL also?)

Also this is a tiny order, every other helo listed is produced by the 1000/100, I’m sure series production with orders >100 can see a 10-15% price reduction purely because of economies of scale
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by vinod »

Atmavik wrote:IA has a brigade dedicated for amphibious landings. They are based in Andaman Islands
Almost all the vehicles aimed at Pakistan are amphibious because of the various canals to cross.
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by KSingh »

+ PLA aviation brigades are building up their helo force by the 100, India responding by taking 10+ years to even order just *15* units and IMRH is nowhere to even be seen (still waiting for CCS approval)


Let’s hope the Chinese are nice enough to wait for india to take these things seriously and get the full 65+114 LCH orders complete (at this point will be lucky before 2040)
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by srin »

Does the cost include cost of missiles and rockets too ?
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by Cain Marko »

Hope this is not little too little, little too late.
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Post by SidSoma »

HAL needs to work out a deal where they can sell the design of the helicopters to some foreign oem and then they can rebrand the same to india back.
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